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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: While I'm sure it cool and great stuff to have and all that, I'm not exactly sure what advantage this round is supposed to offer over the standard loading of 147 HST. I haven't heard of any expansion issues at the standard velocity. Dude ... it will kill you deader! LOL, no, it's just that it's currently available and it's not insanely priced. Oh, I know. I think it's a good deal. |
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So is a Glock 19 +P+ rated?  Yes. Careful. There are NO limits on "+P+" ammo. It's not Sammy-defined. Sub-machinegun ammo is +P+ and is decidely NOT safe for handguns. I believe tht the Glocks are rated for European Nato 9mm (which I believe is higher pressure than +P+). There was a thread weeks ago about the Glock being able to withstand +P+ and Glock said that they are rated at the Nato pressures. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong. |
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back in december i purchased 400 rounds of this XM9HA and out of 300 XM9HA rounds I fired I got 80 failure to fire.and the bullets I recovered from my tests has jacket separation.my verdict,not good for a self defense ammo and not reliable.i wouldnt trust this as my carry ammo and also recoil was bad and its difficult to make good follow up shots compared to my gold dots and t series. Only a moron would keep shooting 300 times with ammo that was failing 30% of the time. I don't know what your game is but I suspect you are just a TROLL tryng stop people from getting in on a good deal. Your gig is up.....I beleive you also go as Renceri, the same guy on Glock Talk and XD Talk that is having failures. |
| whos that guy? and im not a troll either.we all have choices,im not forcing you to believe me. stupid.you are just disgusted and disappointed with my experience because you bought tons of it lol.i will never carry ammo thats i have secong thoughts if it will fire or not...thats me.do what you want and dont blame me for somebody else. |
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Quoted: There is not a standard for +P+ 9x19mm ammunition. All the "+P+" means is that it exceeds SAMMI +P pressures (38,000psi, IIRC). +P+ could be 38,050 PSI or 50,000PSI.... you dont know, as there is no standard. Winchester Ranger RA9TA 127gr +P+ runs at about 42,000 psi... Glocks are certainly capable of handling this load. But its going to cause more wear and tear on the gun. Also... just because pressure is higher, does not mean that velocity will be.Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: So is a Glock 19 +P+ rated? Yes. Careful. There are NO limits on "+P+" ammo. It's not Sammy-defined. Sub-machinegun ammo is +P+ and is decidely NOT safe for handguns. I believe tht the Glocks are rated for European Nato 9mm (which I believe is higher pressure than +P+). There was a thread weeks ago about the Glock being able to withstand +P+ and Glock said that they are rated at the Nato pressures. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong. Surely, this Federa load is very hot, with a 147gr bullet at almost 1200fps... But the standard pressure load already performs properly from a variety of handguns, so you are probably not gaining much with all that extra wear and tear on the gun. |
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back in december i purchased 400 rounds of this XM9HA and out of 300 XM9HA rounds I fired I got 80 failure to fire.and the bullets I recovered from my tests has jacket separation.my verdict,not good for a self defense ammo and not reliable.i wouldnt trust this as my carry ammo and also recoil was bad and its difficult to make good follow up shots compared to my gold dots and t series. Only a moron would keep shooting 300 times with ammo that was failing 30% of the time. I don't know what your game is but I suspect you are just a TROLL tryng stop people from getting in on a good deal. Your gig is up.....I beleive you also go as Renceri, the same guy on Glock Talk and XD Talk that is having failures. Or maybe he shot 50 rounds, and had 13 malfunctions. So he got another box and tried again, only to have another 26% malfunction. At this point, I also would have lost all faith in this ammo, and probably used it to plink, or sell it to someone who thinks it will work for them. Clearly he chose the prior, and shot three quarters of the ammo. Also, pending there were no failures to feed, shooting 300 rounds of a hollow point ammo would give you hard evidence that the gun can at least reliably feed this type of projectile, whereby you can then have the knowledge that this type of ammo feeds reliably in your gun. In knowing this, you can then make future ammunition selections of the same projectile type, knowing there is a strong chance that it will feed reliably in said firearm, such as a lighter grain projectile, or the normal HST. |
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While I'm sure it cool and great stuff to have and all that, I'm not exactly sure what advantage this round is supposed to offer over the standard loading of 147 HST. I haven't heard of any expansion issues at the standard velocity. For me it is about energy, 479 ft lbs, and Hydrostatic shock. The term hydrostatic shock describes the observation that a penetrating projectile can produce remote wounding and incapacitating effects in living targets, in addition to local effects in tissue caused by direct impact, through a hydraulic effect in liquid-filled tissues... One of the arguments I have heard against the 147gr HST is that it is slow and expands at a slower rate that produces less hydrostatic shock than higher velocity rounds like Cor-Bon 115gr+P that runs at 1350 fps and produces 466 ft lbs energy. Lethal Force expert Massad Ayoob, an internationally-known firearms and self-defense instructor, has stated that the "Tried, Tested, and True" 115 grain +P or +P+ is the best self defense load in this caliber. The energy of this cartridge is capable of imparting remote wounding effects known as hydrostatic shock Hydrostatic shock in human-sized living targets. The existence of this phenomenon has been the subject of much debate, especially with respect to handgun cartridges. However, recent publication of human autopsy results has demonstrated brain hemorrhaging from fatal hits to the chest with 9mm bullets. With 1180 fps velocity and 479 ft lbs energy this 147gr round should expand quicker than the standard or +P 147gr round and convert more energy, quicker, to hydrostatic shock. Of course this is dependent on the HST bullet's ability to absorb all that energy and to not over penetrate by folding back or losing mass. I am betting on the HST bullet. It is among the very best. Don't take me wrong on this. I am not saying that P9HST2 or P9HST4 are not great rounds. I am saying that this XM9HA round, with its high velocity and energy, has the potential to be a superior round. Time and testing will tell. just my .02, your mileage may vary renotse Some reading you might like: Handgun wounding Particularly paragraph 2, page 7. 
this is something everybody should read IIRC Hydrostatic shock does not cause damage until you reach 1500 FPS or faster |
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While I'm sure it cool and great stuff to have and all that, I'm not exactly sure what advantage this round is supposed to offer over the standard loading of 147 HST. I haven't heard of any expansion issues at the standard velocity. For me it is about energy, 479 ft lbs, and Hydrostatic shock. The term hydrostatic shock describes the observation that a penetrating projectile can produce remote wounding and incapacitating effects in living targets, in addition to local effects in tissue caused by direct impact, through a hydraulic effect in liquid-filled tissues... One of the arguments I have heard against the 147gr HST is that it is slow and expands at a slower rate that produces less hydrostatic shock than higher velocity rounds like Cor-Bon 115gr+P that runs at 1350 fps and produces 466 ft lbs energy. Lethal Force expert Massad Ayoob, an internationally-known firearms and self-defense instructor, has stated that the "Tried, Tested, and True" 115 grain +P or +P+ is the best self defense load in this caliber. The energy of this cartridge is capable of imparting remote wounding effects known as hydrostatic shock Hydrostatic shock in human-sized living targets. The existence of this phenomenon has been the subject of much debate, especially with respect to handgun cartridges. However, recent publication of human autopsy results has demonstrated brain hemorrhaging from fatal hits to the chest with 9mm bullets. With 1180 fps velocity and 479 ft lbs energy this 147gr round should expand quicker than the standard or +P 147gr round and convert more energy, quicker, to hydrostatic shock. Of course this is dependent on the HST bullet's ability to absorb all that energy and to not over penetrate by folding back or losing mass. I am betting on the HST bullet. It is among the very best. Don't take me wrong on this. I am not saying that P9HST2 or P9HST4 are not great rounds. I am saying that this XM9HA round, with its high velocity and energy, has the potential to be a superior round. Time and testing will tell. just my .02, your mileage may vary renotse Some reading you might like: Handgun wounding Particularly paragraph 2, page 7.
this is something everybody should read IIRC Hydrostatic shock does not cause damage until you reach 1500 FPS or faster It's important to recall the fact that many, many people have survived COM shots with high powered rifles. Even if hydrostatic shock could be proven to be an actual phenomenon, you would still be forced to admit that it was unreliable. |
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lol you are the moron.its not your business if i want to keep on plinking using this stupid ammo eventhough i got failure to fire.its my ammo.buy it all you want if you like but i dont trust this for self defense. I emailed Federal with these questions I have purchased 500 rds of XM9ha. 1)Can you tell me what the spec on this ammo is. 2)Is it for pistol? 3)I read on a forum that this ammo is unreliable and had many failure to fire. Can you confirm this or give reason to disprove it? Their response today Jan 15, 2010 Greetings, The XM9HA is a great personal defense load. It is loaded with our HST bullet with velocities of 1180FPS and energy of 479FT lbs. this was designed for a government agency and is product over run. We are unaware of the forum stating such data and have not had such reports. Thank you Federal cartridge |
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Quoted: Interesting. I just got some of this but wont be able to test it in gel until mid march. If there's much interest in this test I can post it like I did with another HST test I did. Quoted: lol you are the moron.its not your business if i want to keep on plinking using this stupid ammo eventhough i got failure to fire.its my ammo.buy it all you want if you like but i dont trust this for self defense. I emailed Federal with these questions I have purchased 500 rds of XM9ha. 1)Can you tell me what the spec on this ammo is. 2)Is it for pistol? 3)I read on a forum that this ammo is unreliable and had many failure to fire. Can you confirm this or give reason to disprove it? Their response today Jan 15, 2010 Greetings, The XM9HA is a great personal defense load. It is loaded with our HST bullet with velocities of 1180FPS and energy of 479FT lbs. this was designed for a government agency and is product over run. We are unaware of the forum stating such data and have not had such reports. Thank you Federal |
| Umm, bro. I got some here right in front of me and it says F.C.C 2006. Thats appears to be the Federal Cartridge Company 2006 copyright. The rounds I received look superb, I have a box of old stock 124gr +p HST's and those look like crap compared to Federal XM9HA I just received today. |
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Quoted: You don't happen to have a chrono do you?Umm, bro. I got some here right in front of me and it says F.C.C 2006. Thats appears to be the Federal Cartridge Company 2006 copyright. The rounds I received look superb, I have a box of old stock 124gr +p HST's and those look like crap compared to Federal XM9HA I just received today. |
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I saw in the box of this xm9ha ammo that it was manufactured 2006 so these ammos were at least 4 years old already. It is helpful that you post your experience, if it is true, and it would be even more helpful if you would share your correspondence with Federal or your supplier indicating their response to your concerns. Have you even reported this to Federal or the supplier?....... I doubt it. You have made numerous posts on this and other forums and put much energy into denigrating the performance and value of this ammo, what's your motive? who knows?. I have done my diligence by polling both the supplier and the manufacturer and both have stated for the record that there have been no reports from users with similar experience to yours. I have now received my XM9HA as have many others on these forums. I will be testing some of my XM9HA for accuracy and function along with some new Ranger RA9TA and Q4318 NATO in my brand new Glock 19. I won't be able to inspect the projectiles for expansion because I will be at a public indoor range. I will post the results here. I'll bet dollars to donuts that all 3 of these high pressure rounds fire and function fine in the excellent Glock 19. I also suspect that others will have a similar good experience and I hope they will be kind enough to post their results. |
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Greetings,
The XM9HA is a great personal defense load. It is loaded with our HST bullet with velocities of 1180FPS and energy of 479FT lbs. this was designed for a government agency and is product over run. We are unaware of the forum stating such data and have not had such reports. Thank you Federal cartridge In the .357 SIG loading ; the 9mm 124 grain HST bullet has a muzzle velocity of 1360fps with 513lbs of kinetic energy. Which would seem to indicate that the 147 grain HST bullet won't come apart at the 1180 fps achieved by the XM9HA since the velocity appears to be within its design range. Personally; I wouldn't carry such a hot loading due to to training issues including target reacquisition, point of impact and general familiarity with the round, but I'm guessing that it would be a hell of a self defense round for those who practice with it regularly. On the other hand; the regular P9HST2, 147 grain HST loading is no slouch either. |
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On the other hand; the regular P9HST2, 147 grain HST loading is no slouch either. I absolutely agree. The only problem for me with P9HST2, or any other flavor of 9mm HST, is availability to the non LEO. XM9HA is available today to any non-felon aged 21 or over with $23 to spare. It uses the same venerable 147gr HST bullet found on P9HST2 and P9HST4 and has a little more juice, which may be a good, or bad thing. It looked too good to pass up. I bought 10 boxes "I'm just sayin" |
| Whatever your correspondence,every results will vary.i still will not trust this ammo for self defense with regards to what happen.petal separation and FTFire. You are just justifying your reason for buying lots of it so you keep on talking and defending it.information is different from actual results.customer service is different from my shooting results. |
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Quoted: Quoted: I saw in the box of this xm9ha ammo that it was manufactured 2006 so these ammos were at least 4 years old already. It is helpful that you post your experience, if it is true, and it would be even more helpful if you would share your correspondence with Federal or your supplier indicating their response to your concerns. Have you even reported this to Federal or the supplier?....... I doubt it. You have made numerous posts on this and other forums and put much energy into denigrating the performance and value of this ammo, what's your motive? who knows?. I have done my diligence by polling both the supplier and the manufacturer and both have stated for the record that there have been no reports from users with similar experience to yours. I have now received my XM9HA as have many others on these forums. I will be testing some of my XM9HA for accuracy and function along with some new Ranger RA9TA and Q4318 NATO in my brand new Glock 19. I won't be able to inspect the projectiles for expansion because I will be at a public indoor range. I will post the results here. I'll bet dollars to donuts that all 3 of these high pressure rounds fire and function fine in the excellent Glock 19. I also suspect that others will have a similar good experience and I hope they will be kind enough to post their results. Please catch your casings and inspect them for over pressure. If you don't know how to inspect them then post pics for us to see. thanks. |
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Whatever your correspondence,every results will vary.i still will not trust this ammo for self defense with regards to what happen.petal separation and FTFire. You are just justifying your reason for buying lots of it so you keep on talking and defending it.information is different from actual results.customer service is different from my shooting results. 500 rounds is "lots" of ammo to you? 
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The only problem for me with P9HST2, or any other flavor of 9mm HST, is availability to the non LEO. While HST is not widely available for public purchase, you can and will find some with some patience. Places like ammunitiontogo.com and tds-us.com get some fairly regularly, as well as a couple other places. |
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Not one other person has tried this ammo yet? Shame... I fired 50 rounds of XM9ha today and got no failures to fire or mis-feeds from my new Glock 19. Must have got a better batch than slavkoph  I also shot 50 rounds of Winchester Q4318 FMJ with the same reliability. The accuracy of both rounds were beyond my shooting ability. The recoil and report on the XM9ha was noticeably more than the FMJ but not unmanageable. With today's shooting that makes only 150 rnds I have fired with the G19.
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whos that guy? and im not a troll either.we all have choices,im not forcing you to believe me. stupid.you are just disgusted and disappointed with my experience because you bought tons of it lol.i will never carry ammo thats i have secong thoughts if it will fire or not...thats me.do what you want and dont blame me for somebody else. 
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Quoted: Can't be that bad stuff. Glocks sometimes choke up on the 147gr bullets so keep your feed ramps clean. Quoted: Not one other person has tried this ammo yet? Shame... I fired 50 rounds of XM9ha today and got no failures to fire or mis-feeds from my new Glock 19. Must have got a better batch than slavkoph I also shot 50 rounds of Winchester Q4318 FMJ with the same reliability. The accuracy of both rounds were beyond my shooting ability. The recoil and report on the XM9ha was noticeably more than the FMJ but not unmanageable. With today's shooting that makes only 150 rnds I have fired with the G19. How does the recoil compare to 124+p? |
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Can't be that bad stuff. Glocks sometimes choke up on the 147gr bullets so keep your feed ramps clean.
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Not one other person has tried this ammo yet? Shame... I fired 50 rounds of XM9ha today and got no failures to fire or mis-feeds from my new Glock 19. Must have got a better batch than slavkoph I also shot 50 rounds of Winchester Q4318 FMJ with the same reliability. The accuracy of both rounds were beyond my shooting ability. The recoil and report on the XM9ha was noticeably more than the FMJ but not unmanageable. With today's shooting that makes only 150 rnds I have fired with the G19.
How does the recoil compare to 124+p? I can't say I never fired any 124gr +p but I do have some Ranger T 127gr +p+. When I shoot that I will post my impression of how they compare. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Can't be that bad stuff. Glocks sometimes choke up on the 147gr bullets so keep your feed ramps clean. Quoted: Not one other person has tried this ammo yet? Shame... I fired 50 rounds of XM9ha today and got no failures to fire or mis-feeds from my new Glock 19. Must have got a better batch than slavkoph I also shot 50 rounds of Winchester Q4318 FMJ with the same reliability. The accuracy of both rounds were beyond my shooting ability. The recoil and report on the XM9ha was noticeably more than the FMJ but not unmanageable. With today's shooting that makes only 150 rnds I have fired with the G19. How does the recoil compare to 124+p? I can't say I never fired any 124gr +p but I do have some Ranger T 127gr +p+. When I shoot that I will post my impression of how they compare. thanks |
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whos that guy? and im not a troll either.we all have choices,im not forcing you to believe me. stupid.you are just disgusted and disappointed with my experience because you bought tons of it lol.i will never carry ammo thats i have secong thoughts if it will fire or not...thats me.do what you want and dont blame me for somebody else. So have you contacted Federal about your issue yet? |
| Take this FWIW I only had the opportunity to fire 5 rounds out of my full size M&P but I couldn't tell a different in recoil between this stuff and Federal 115grn. FMJ from wal mart. I loaded 10 rounds of the FMJ then put in the 5 rounds to test how they fed and recoiled and couldn't tell a difference all we selected randomly from the boxes and I had no problems. I'll probably buy a few more boxes so I can test more before I carry this load though. |
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My 5 boxes were waiting on me when I got home from work yesterday. I randomly selected 5 rounds from each box and split them up between my 2 glock 17's. I was going to start this off with "the first 2 rds failed to fire but the third one was so hot, it blew the mag out the bottom of the gun". Unfortunately, all I have to report is a plain old boring 100% firing and functioning ammo with slightly more recoil than 115 gr WWBs. The primers showed no signs of overpressure, but the brass was a little more beat up from the extraction/ejection process than I am used to seeing. That's OK since I do not reuse brass from hot loaded, glock fired ammo anyhow. I realize 25 rounds does not constitute a bet your life on carry round reliability test, but I was just dying to try this stuff after reading the other horror story. Sorry I don't have any chronograph data or recovered bullets to show. I will be ordering 10 more boxes today, and I will give the ammo a good workout when it comes in.
Mark |
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Quoted: Do you think the reason the brass looks more beat up is becasue it's nickle plated and therefor shows more blemishes? My 5 boxes were waiting on me when I got home from work yesterday. I randomly selected 5 rounds from each box and split them up between my 2 glock 17's. I was going to start this off with "the first 2 rds failed to fire but the third one was so hot, it blew the mag out the bottom of the gun". Unfortunately, all I have to report is a plain old boring 100% firing and functioning ammo with slightly more recoil than 115 gr WWBs. The primers showed no signs of overpressure, but the brass was a little more beat up from the extraction/ejection process than I am used to seeing. That's OK since I do not reuse brass from hot loaded, glock fired ammo anyhow. I realize 25 rounds does not constitute a bet your life on carry round reliability test, but I was just dying to try this stuff after reading the other horror story. Sorry I don't have any chronograph data or recovered bullets to show. I will be ordering 10 more boxes today, and I will give the ammo a good workout when it comes in. Mark |
I got my shipment yesterday and shot one round so far. It went "bang."  Felt no different than shooting regular 147g HST ammo.
I happen to have shot it into milkjugs filled with H2O. It stopped in jug #4. The recovered bullet? It looks exactly as you'd expect a recovered water-shot HST bullet to look: like a beautiful flower. The recovered weight, according to me RCBS Rangemaster 750 is 146.9g I'm at work right now but will get a pic up within the next day or so, but if you've ever seen an opened HST, you know what they look like. |
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By the way, the ammo I received is in the Federal grey and blue boxes, not white as mentioned early in the thread.
http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp24/ge_traveler/XM9HAAmmo001.jpg http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp24/ge_traveler/XM9HAAmmo004.jpg |
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Quoted: Thanks for the Info!! What were the measurements on the HST? I got my shipment yesterday and shot one round so far. It went "bang." Felt no different than shooting regular 147g HST ammo.I happen to have shot it into milkjugs filled with H2O. It stopped in jug #4. The recovered bullet? It looks exactly as you'd expect a recovered water-shot HST bullet to look: like a beautiful flower. The recovered weight, according to me RCBS Rangemaster 750 is 146.9g I'm at work right now but will get a pic up within the next day or so, but if you've ever seen an opened HST, you know what they look like. also Do you have a chrono |
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Thanks for the Info!! What were the measurements on the HST?
I got my shipment yesterday and shot one round so far. It went "bang." Felt no different than shooting regular 147g HST ammo.
I happen to have shot it into milkjugs filled with H2O. It stopped in jug #4. The recovered bullet? It looks exactly as you'd expect a recovered water-shot HST bullet to look: like a beautiful flower. The recovered weight, according to me RCBS Rangemaster 750 is 146.9g I'm at work right now but will get a pic up within the next day or so, but if you've ever seen an opened HST, you know what they look like. also Do you have a chrono Sadly, no chronograph but at its widest the bullet measures .745"
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Well this stuff is almost too long to fit in my PM9 mags. the 124gr stuff fits fine. I don't have any of the standard 147gr HST's to measure but I measured them against the 124gr +p HST's I have and here are the results: Federal P9HST3 (124gr +p) had an average total measured length of 1.095" http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp24/ge_traveler/FederalAmmoComparison004.jpg http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp24/ge_traveler/FederalAmmoComparison003.jpg Federal XM9HA (147gr) had an average total measured length of 1.125" http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp24/ge_traveler/FederalAmmoComparison005.jpg So, the 147gr is approximately .030" or roughly 1/32" longer than the 124gr, which is not suprising. That's what you'd expect from the heavier bullet. I know it's probably not much useful info, just thought I'd measure them and post the results. |
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Well this stuff is almost too long to fit in my PM9 mags. the 124gr stuff fits fine. I don't have any of the standard 147gr HST's to measure but I measured them against the 124gr +p HST's I have and here are the results: Yes, I meant to include that earlier: both the 147g HST and the 147g XM9HA measured 1.130" OAL on my RCBS calipers. Exact same OAL. |
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Quoted: Thanks. Those are nice measurements. I'm just happy to find some high quality HPs. Quoted: Quoted: Thanks for the Info!! What were the measurements on the HST? I got my shipment yesterday and shot one round so far. It went "bang." Felt no different than shooting regular 147g HST ammo.I happen to have shot it into milkjugs filled with H2O. It stopped in jug #4. The recovered bullet? It looks exactly as you'd expect a recovered water-shot HST bullet to look: like a beautiful flower. The recovered weight, according to me RCBS Rangemaster 750 is 146.9g I'm at work right now but will get a pic up within the next day or so, but if you've ever seen an opened HST, you know what they look like. also Do you have a chrono Sadly, no chronograph but at its widest the bullet measures .745" I'm sure my USP will eat them up but the PM9 will have to have some extensive testing before I trust the long bullet. |
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