Joined:
Aug 2026
Posts:
454
EE: 0% (0)
ZAF
Posted: 9/20/2026 3:02:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: PieterCoetzee][Edited]
|
OK I know what a PDW is and I take exception to the dilution of the term. We use language to express ourselves and when language becomes diluted, we cause irreparable issues. So lets go back to the NATO trials of the 1980s (Id say the concept dates further back, but the TERM was coined then). The simple version (because its complicated), is a weapon meant for support troops who could benefit from something more than a handgun but didnt generally need a full size rifle. NATO wanted a weapon able to defeat the largely mythical Soviet plate armor and be able to reach out to 200m, as they feared or perhaps envisioned an airborne attack into rear areas. The idea was that rear area support troops had other missions rather than combat and a mechanic working on a truck or at a refueling station would most likely have his rifle in a rack or worse locked up in a connex box; because the CO didnt want an AD ruining his chance at promotion. FN and HK were the only firms that made it through the trials. The PS90 and MP7 both met the goals. Along the way HK added a folding stock to the MP5K and called it a MP5Kpdw (the first muddying of the term) Dating back to WW2 the US introduced the M1Carbine then the M1A1 Carbine (folding stock). Not a PDW by title but clearly meant for support troops. Later during VietNam some enterprising armorer took a M1A1 Carbine and shortened the barrel back to the end of the wood stock. Do a google search and you find a young Lt Norman Swartzkopft with what became know as an Advisor Carbine. I cant say how 30Carbine ammo does against Soviet plates by all accounts it does fine against troops BUT it is (woefully) lacking as a front line weapon (compared to the M1 Garands 30-06 or the M16s 556) Can we argue the VZ61 (original) Skorpion is a PDW, well its meant to be carried in the belt holster and the original 32acp ammo had a steel core. The stock does make it a better option than a handgun and it may have been meant as something similar but it lacks the range and power to call it a true PDW We might even go further back to the days of the Broomhandle Mauser and Stocked Lugers; although Id suggest they arent PDWs but an attempt to put semi (full) auto weapons in the hands of shock troops for trench raids along with the shortened and stocked MG08/15 beltfeds So is a short AR, even a HoneyBadger a PDW? Well certainly not by definition. Does it come close sure. Do I want one yes of course but I stick with its not a PDW. Sadly the TERM has been muddied beyond repair. Any manufacturer that wants to see a short gun calls it a PDW. Language only has worth when words have meanings that everyone understands. Whats a PDW |
Look at current government contracts. They write RFPs for PDWs that are basically specing the AR or M4 platform. Domestic civilian agencies writing contracts for their internal security (IRS, Dept of Ag, etc) may specify semi-auto not full auto. A modern personal defense weapon is right there in the name of this web site. No need to make it complicated. 
|
|
Originally Posted By PieterCoetzee: OK I know what a PDW is and I take exception to the dilution of the term. We use language to express ourselves and when language becomes diluted, we cause irreparable issues. So lets go back to the NATO trials of the 1980s (Id say the concept dates further back, but the TERM was coined then). The simple version (because its complicated), is a weapon meant for support troops who could benefit from something more than a handgun but didnt generally need a full size rifle. NATO wanted a weapon able to defeat the largely mythical Soviet plate armor and be able to reach out to 200m, as they feared or perhaps envisioned an airborne attack into rear areas. The idea was that rear area support troops had other missions rather than combat and a mechanic working on a truck or at a refueling station would most likely have his rifle in a rack or worse locked up in a connex box; because the CO didnt want an AD ruining his chance at promotion. FN and HK were the only firms that made it through the trials. The PS90 and MP7 both met the goals. Along the way HK added a folding stock to the MP5K and called it a MP5Kpdw (the first muddying of the term) Dating back to WW2 the US introduced the M1Carbine then the M1A1 Carbine (folding stock). Not a PDW by title but clearly meant for support troops. Later during VietNam some enterprising armorer took a M1A1 Carbine and shortened the barrel back to the end of the wood stock. Do a google search and you find a young Lt Norman Swartzkopft with what became know as an Advisor Carbine. I cant say how 30Carbine ammo does against Soviet plates by all accounts it does fine against troops BUT it is (woefully) lacking as a front line weapon (compared to the M1 Garands 30-06 or the M16s 556) Can we argue the VZ61 (original) Skorpion is a PDW, well its meant to be carried in the belt holster and the original 32acp ammo had a steel core. The stock does make it a better option than a handgun and it may have been meant as something similar but it lacks the range and power to call it a true PDW We might even go further back to the days of the Broomhandle Mauser and Stocked Lugers; although Id suggest they arent PDWs but an attempt to put semi (full) auto weapons in the hands of shock troops for trench raids along with the shortened and stocked MG08/15 beltfeds So is a short AR, even a HoneyBadger a PDW? Well certainly not by definition. Does it come close sure. Do I want one yes of course but I stick with its not a PDW. Sadly the TERM has been muddied beyond repair. Any manufacturer that wants to see a short gun calls it a PDW. Language only has worth when words have meanings that everyone understands. Whats a PDW PDW can describe a mission / role or a description of weapon category in modern parlance, which is why it means different things to different people. For example, the M1 Carbine is a carbine categorically, designed and employed in what we’d now recognize as a PDW role. I agree broadly the category could be a firearm more capable than a handgun and handier than a rifle intended for people whose primary job isn’t combat; an M1 carbine might be carried by someone whose job is combat (say a leader who wants something lighter than a garand) but here we might say carbine instead of PDW even if it’s the same firearm? |
|
There's a whole big thread on PDWs here. https://www.ar15.com/forums/General/A-mostly-peaceful-election-year-Let-s-talk-PDWs-v2-0/5-2730988/ |
Remember kids, the first rule of gun safety is to have fun.
Joined:
Jun 2022
Posts:
12709
EE: 100% (3)
IA, USA
Joined:
Sep 2025
Posts:
1701
EE: 0% (0)
NV, USA
|
Originally Posted By flcracker: What is it about a 4.5" - 7" AR in 300BLK with a short/minimalist stock and an FRT that makes it NOT a PDW? Honest question, not sarcasm. Agreed - i put my AR9 5" folding gun into PDW role and its smaller than others would argue ARE pdw's... i dont think there is a genuine definition. for me its a small enough to be concealable gun that brings more capability than a pistol in terms of range and firepower, but less than a full on rifle in that role IMO AR9 or small 300 blk excels, bringing larger mag capacity than a concealable pistol, ability to hit targets at greater distance, ability to easily have a 3 position safety, stable non-reciprocating optic, and easy suppressor hosting. i'll say it maybe more succinctly - is a concealable truck gun a pdw? i dont see any requirement that a PDW be wearable in a holster - that would limit to only the flux type things, which IMO leave a lot on the table compared to the above. |
| OP, the operant words are Person Defense, where a rifle-short or long is used for offensive purposes as well. |
Never make another person a priority when they merely see you as an option...
"Some People Are Like Slinkies. They're Not Really Good For Anything, But They Bring a Smile To Your Face When Pushed Down The Stairs."
"Some People Are Like Slinkies. They're Not Really Good For Anything, But They Bring a Smile To Your Face When Pushed Down The Stairs."
Pistols and pcc's are fun but terminally perform very poorly. If I'm going to carry something in a backpack or commuter bag for personal protection I'm going to get the most out of it. Below has similar ballistics to a full size AK and with a brace is very easy to shoot. 
|
"Tact...the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip." Winston Churchill
Joined:
Aug 2026
Posts:
456
EE: 0% (0)
ZAF
|
Today I would substitute or maybe add ease of concealment with the need for defeating body armor. The sad fact is you can buy it on eBay for under $300 and cobble it together for well under $100 that at the Home warehouse stores. I absolutely love my M5KPDW. Its heavy by 2026 standards of SMGs but small enough to carry in a shoulder holster if a bit awkward unless you have your suit tailored for it (you should have seen his eyes...) The FLUX and even better the FLUX P365 are much smaller and lighter by far; but I think the MP5 still beats them once the shooting starts because of the weight. Now its only the armor issue. Its for the same reason I disqualify the VZ61, which is a sweet shooter. As for the AR issue, its the buffer tube that keeps it out of the PDW for size reasons. A bufferless system might work. Deadfoot Arms makes a super short railed stock but they are crazy expensive and use proprietary parts (which I dont see as a real disqualifier). Someone clue me in, can 300BO defeat plates? Out of super short barrels? My guess is NO but Im open to advice from learnerd colleagues. Yes I know agencies are buying AR based weapons as weapons for personal defense but that takes us back to the question of the definition. |
Joined:
Aug 2026
Posts:
457
EE: 0% (0)
ZAF
|
Originally Posted By flcracker: What is it about a 4.5" - 7" AR in 300BLK with a short/minimalist stock and an FRT that makes it NOT a PDW? Honest question, not sarcasm. Valid question. Ask yourself this can you change spark plugs or fix a broken track with an AR slung on your back? If we're going back to defeating plates, does 300 fill that specification? Passing on the armor issue can you conceal it in something that doesnt look like "theres a gun in there"? Ill toss in the AK74U (krink) as the Soviet answer to the PDW. Im still a fan of 762x39 but the guns fit the PDW role, especially since they can be fired with the stock folded unlike ARs. I would also add that the Russians have largely abandoned the Krink (9" barrel) in favor of the AK104 with a 12" barrel As for the Fleming abortion, the G3K with its 12" barrel is a MUCH better option BUT is it a PDW? Guys I like all the "Mini Guns" rifles and SMGs; my issue is the morphing of the name....and you thought it was just a question about chromosomes in sports and bathrooms. |
Joined:
Sep 2025
Posts:
1708
EE: 0% (0)
NV, USA
|
I don't get why support troops necessarily need a smaller gun. Whatever reasons the full size rifles stay locked up in a connex box would still apply to a PDW. Being long and heavy isn't why they were kept locked up, it was so nobody is accidentally discharging a round in the rear, which still applies just as much to any other gun. If you need something more concealable and easy to move around in tight spaces then that's a better reason. If you want the compact weapon to also penetrate flexible soft armor then that's also valid. But this notion that rear support troops are more likely to be allowed to carry around a different gun just because it's smaller than an M16 was dumb. |
|
Originally Posted By GrimesSU: When you want a flashbang, concussion grenade, machinegun, and PDW all in one.  https://i.imgur.com/YgzTREZ.png Actually, I think it needs the folding stock to qualify as a PDW as determined by H&K. Like mine. Attached File |
"An age of glory passed like a lightning flash. The mandate of heaven passed from you but you didn't see. Times change and power passes. It is the pity of the world."
Song dynasty poet
Song dynasty poet
|
Originally Posted By GrimesSU: When you want a flashbang, concussion grenade, machinegun, and PDW all in one. https://i.imgur.com/YgzTREZ.png My ears started bleeding just looking at that |
|
Something more than a pistol or smg, and a tad less than a full rifle. With good ammo and some optics a PDW now is pretty frigin capable or more. I would even say depending on the optic choice it cac just by that be pushed into main battle arm ala MK18 I think the M1 Carbine was intended as a PDW and executed it very well |
|
Originally Posted By WildBoar: My ears started bleeding just looking at that Originally Posted By WildBoar: Originally Posted By GrimesSU: When you want a flashbang, concussion grenade, machinegun, and PDW all in one. https://i.imgur.com/YgzTREZ.png My ears started bleeding just looking at that It's not nearly as bad as a shorty 5.56 AR. |
"An age of glory passed like a lightning flash. The mandate of heaven passed from you but you didn't see. Times change and power passes. It is the pity of the world."
Song dynasty poet
Song dynasty poet
Joined:
Jun 2025
Posts:
3939
EE: 100% (57)
UT, USA
|
I would argue that the SMG fits the PDW role perfectly - more firepower than a pistol, but short of the power and length of a rifle. Spray and pray rather than aimed fire. |
Freedom and Justice come out of a box. Sometimes it is a Jury box. Sometimes it is a Ballot box. Other times it has to come from a Cartridge box!
|
Depends on the primary characteristic under discussion. For myself, the PCC/SMG covers pistol calibers, and the assault rifle (actual meaning, not bastardized political meaning) covers the mid-century intermediate calibers between pistol and battle rifle. So my primary qualification is ammo - the modern PDW is chambered in yet another intermediate caliber range, filling a gap between the OG intermediate rifle cartridges and the pistol cartridges. But there are other ways to skin that cat, obviously, with the intended mission/use being the other major one. Whereas the ammo definition is exclusive, the mission/use definition is more inclusive and encompasses pistol and assault rifle cartridges on both sides. |
Res ad triarios rediit.
“Believe me, nothing except a battle lost can be half so melancholy as a battle won.” - Arthur Wellesley, 1st Duke of Wellington
“Believe me, nothing except a battle lost can be half so melancholy as a battle won.” - Arthur Wellesley, 1st Duke of Wellington
Joined:
Aug 2026
Posts:
458
EE: 0% (0)
ZAF
|
Originally Posted By Brian01: I don't get why support troops necessarily need a smaller gun. The idea was they need/needed a smaller gun that they could keep on them as opposed to leaning against a tree or locked up someplace Whatever reasons the full size rifles stay locked up in a connex box would still apply to a PDW. Being long and heavy isn't why they were kept locked up, it was so nobody is accidentally discharging a round in the rear, which still applies just as much to any other gun. Perhaps its the AD issue but Id argue its more the accountability issue, as in "wheres your rifle specialist?" If you need something more concealable and easy to move around in tight spaces then that's a better reason. If you want the compact weapon to also penetrate flexible soft armor then that's also valid. But this notion that rear support troops are more likely to be allowed to carry around a different gun just because it's smaller than an M16 was dumb. Mine in BOLD |
Joined:
Aug 2026
Posts:
459
EE: 0% (0)
ZAF
|
Originally Posted By Mall-Ninja: I would argue that the SMG fits the PDW role perfectly - more firepower than a pistol, but short of the power and length of a rifle. I would too except for the armor issue Spray and pray rather than aimed fire. Im guessing that was meant for humor If we are going the SMG route, Id consider up-ing to 10mm or perhaps some specialty round like 6.5x25 CBJ Mine in BOLD |
Joined:
Aug 2026
Posts:
460
EE: 0% (0)
ZAF
|
Originally Posted By KitBuilder: These days, if you cannot holster your PDW, it kinda sucks. It should also feature the capability to mount optics and a light/LAM, select-fire, a big mag, and maybe additionally a short/tiny mag for concealment. If we're discounting the armor piercing requirement, I have a Glock 35 in 357SIG in a Recover 2020 chassis with a RMR and a IR light/laser. Ive carried all day in a holster. Does that meet your specs? I dont consider it a PDW by definition but it is better than a pistol alone and 357Sig extends the range beyond 9mm |
|
You want to talk about mudding firearm terms. How about the fact that the US, Germany, and the Soviets referred to guns like the XM-177, HK53, and AKS74U as submachineguns? Some people categorize firearms based on their technical characteristics. Others classify them based on their role. In use, the above three guns are basically submachineguns or PDWs on steroids. |
|
Originally Posted By GrimesSU: When you want a flashbang, concussion grenade, machinegun, and PDW all in one. https://i.imgur.com/YgzTREZ.png A man could make lots of friends firing that in an indoor range. |
Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio,
contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.
Vivat Iesus.
contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.
Vivat Iesus.
|
Originally Posted By Dolomite: God Bless Texas Originally Posted By Dolomite: Muzzle flash at high noon under a Texas sun.  Attached File |
"An age of glory passed like a lightning flash. The mandate of heaven passed from you but you didn't see. Times change and power passes. It is the pity of the world."
Song dynasty poet
Song dynasty poet
|
Attached File A PDW is the kind of gun you take for protection when you're buying more guns. |
Put not your trust in princes, in sons of men in whom there is no salvation.
|
Originally Posted By flcracker: Got a link? 🤔 Originally Posted By flcracker: Got a link? 🤔 Post #4 ITT has it. Originally Posted By flcracker: I searched "PDW" and found no threads longer than 2 pages. ARFCOM's incredibly shitty search engine strikes again. If you search for "PDW" it won't find that thread, because the thread is titled "A mostly peaceful election year. Let's talk PDWs v2.0". "PDWs", with an "s", which for some dumb reason won't find "PDW" in the ARFCOM search syntax. You have to search for "PDW*". |
For me, it's a 9mil or better, and ultra-concealable. I'm waiting for the X5.7 but I built a .300B AR with a 5.9-inch barrel, and it's quite concealable. Is it a PDW? I dunno, but it is to me.  " />
|
https://www.amazon.com/Gentle-Propositions-J-S-Economos/dp/0615997635
Joined:
Aug 2026
Posts:
461
EE: 0% (0)
ZAF
|
Originally Posted By Nickel_Plated: You want to talk about mudding firearm terms. How about the fact that the US, Germany, and the Soviets referred to guns like the XM-177, HK53, and AKS74U as submachineguns? Yeah thats always confounded me. My best guess for the XM177 and the HK53 is that the US, the Brits, and Germany were still using SMGs (or at least had them in inventory) and these weapons were thought to be used in a SMG role Some people categorize firearms based on their technical characteristics. Others classify them based on their role. In use, the above three guns are basically submachineguns or PDWs on steroids. EXACTLY My issue is PDW was a new term for a New CLASS of weapons. Now to call something that doesnt fit the original definition by the same name has blurred the concept beyond recovery We might argue that the need to defeat armor is no longer necessary; but I would say that its more important than ever. Perhaps it can be mitigated with concealability but certainly not eliminated. Other guns (SMGs/ARs) and cartridges (9mm/300BO) come close close but dont fill that need. Mine in BOLD |
Joined:
Aug 2026
Posts:
462
EE: 0% (0)
ZAF
|
Regarding the super short 308s, will they defeat hard plates at say 100m? When HK was playing with the G3K design, they decided it needed specialty ammo to be useful and that was with a 12" barrel. The Brits wanted a shorter rifle to maneuver in/out of vehicles in Northern Ireland and they approached HK with the project. The G3K with a 12" barrel was the answer. Fleming 51s may be cool but they are tactically useless toys. Its not that I dont want one (I DO) but only to play with when I watch Marked for Death. My G3K clone OTOH does have real merits. |
|
If the mp5 can be considered a pdw, or it maybe considered a smg. How about a hk53 in 300. Certainly better ballistics to 200, will defeat soft body armor. And it's only like 2 inches longer than a mp5 so bigger than a smg, but a lot smaller than a rifle. With the can on it and the stock folded it's like 4 or 5 inches shorter than a 11.5 ar with the stock collapsed. Attached File |
"I am gonna laugh my ass off looking out the air vent of the box car watching some of you shot in the head in a ditch when you finally realize it's time to resist." stolen from RR_broccoli
|
Originally Posted By PieterCoetzee: My issue is PDW was a new term for a New CLASS of weapons. Now to call something that doesnt fit the original definition by the same name has blurred the concept beyond recovery We might argue that the need to defeat armor is no longer necessary; but I would say that its more important than ever. Perhaps it can be mitigated with concealability but certainly not eliminated. Other guns (SMGs/ARs) and cartridges (9mm/300BO) come close close but dont fill that need. Mine in BOLD Originally Posted By PieterCoetzee: Originally Posted By Nickel_Plated: You want to talk about mudding firearm terms. How about the fact that the US, Germany, and the Soviets referred to guns like the XM-177, HK53, and AKS74U as submachineguns? Yeah thats always confounded me. My best guess for the XM177 and the HK53 is that the US, the Brits, and Germany were still using SMGs (or at least had them in inventory) and these weapons were thought to be used in a SMG role Some people categorize firearms based on their technical characteristics. Others classify them based on their role. In use, the above three guns are basically submachineguns or PDWs on steroids. EXACTLY My issue is PDW was a new term for a New CLASS of weapons. Now to call something that doesnt fit the original definition by the same name has blurred the concept beyond recovery We might argue that the need to defeat armor is no longer necessary; but I would say that its more important than ever. Perhaps it can be mitigated with concealability but certainly not eliminated. Other guns (SMGs/ARs) and cartridges (9mm/300BO) come close close but dont fill that need. Mine in BOLD Agreed IIRC - The classic definition of submachine gun included using a pistol cartridge. |
Of all men’s miseries the bitterest is this: to know so much and to have control over nothing.
- Herodotus
- Herodotus
|
Originally Posted By PieterCoetzee: Regarding the super short 308s, will they defeat hard plates at say 100m? No, they are velocity challenged. https://www.ar15.com/forums/armory/DSA-FAL-8-25-PDW-Suppressed/7-549837/? |
|
Originally Posted By Capt-Planet: There's a whole big thread on PDWs here. https://www.ar15.com/forums/General/A-mostly-peaceful-election-year-Let-s-talk-PDWs-v2-0/5-2730988/  There is an 80s military definition that OP seems hung up on, regarding defeating body armor and full auto. Since both armor piercing ammo and full auto is…difficult to obtain, its a very limiting definition for gun owners. For the purposes of our 50+ page on PDWs, we have been using a more civilian gun owner oriented definition. A PDW is a gun that offers more capability than your EDC that conceals easier than a rifle. Context would be any time the environment calls for a little extra beyond a handgun. Civil unrest, riots, manhunt for armed criminal in your area, natural disaster, etc….all situations you might want more than a G19 but slinging a full sized AR as you go about your business is going to bring down extra unwanted interactions with the cops. Thats where things like Flux Raiders, MCX Rattlers, MP5ks etc that meet the definition of more capable than your handgun, and more concealable than your rifle shine as functional, actual Personal Defense Weapons, compared to the 1980s military definition of PDWs for cooks and supply clerks fighting soviet paratroopers behind enemy lines wearing soft armor. |
Originally Posted By Aimless: You're calling each other names at 8 on a sunday in a thread about ancient rome. smiley_freak.gif
|
Originally Posted By 74novaman: There is an 80s military definition that OP seems hung up on, regarding defeating body armor and full auto. Since both armor piercing ammo and full auto is difficult to obtain, its a very limiting definition for gun owners. For the purposes of our 50+ page on PDWs, we have been using a more civilian gun owner oriented definition. A PDW is a gun that offers more capability than your EDC that conceals easier than a rifle. Context would be any time the environment calls for a little extra beyond a handgun. Civil unrest, riots, manhunt for armed criminal in your area, natural disaster, etc .all situations you might want more than a G19 but slinging a full sized AR as you go about your business is going to bring down extra unwanted interactions with the cops. Thats where things like Flux Raiders, MCX Rattlers, MP5ks etc that meet the definition of more capable than your handgun, and more concealable than your rifle shine as functional, actual Personal Defense Weapons, compared to the 1980s military definition of PDWs for cooks and supply clerks fighting soviet paratroopers behind enemy lines wearing soft armor. |
|
Originally Posted By yamahawarrior89: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/372855/1000006720_jpg-3830279.JPG PDW's should be 308 My son would agree. Attached File |
"An age of glory passed like a lightning flash. The mandate of heaven passed from you but you didn't see. Times change and power passes. It is the pity of the world."
Song dynasty poet
Song dynasty poet
Joined:
Aug 2026
Posts:
464
EE: 0% (0)
ZAF
|
Originally Posted By 74novaman: There is an 80s military definition that OP seems hung up on, regarding defeating body armor and full auto. Im hung up on most definitions, kinda like what is a Male and Female. The difference between Sex and Gender (which is another oner thats so blurred that it will never recover) Since both armor piercing ammo Thats a topic for another thread and full auto is…difficult to obtain, its a very limiting definition for gun owners. IDK FRTs and Binaries come pretty close For the purposes of our 50+ page on PDWs, we have been using a more civilian gun owner oriented definition. Then why not call it a Civilian Defense Weapon and keep the topic cleaner A Context would be any time the environment calls for a little extra beyond a handgun. Civil unrest, riots, manhunt for armed criminal in your area, natural disaster, etc….all situations you might want more than a G19 but slinging a full sized AR as you go about your business is going to bring down extra unwanted interactions with the cops. Thats where things like Flux Raiders, MCX Rattlers, MP5ks etc that meet the definition of more capable than your handgun, and more concealable than your rifle shine as functional, actual Mine in BOLD Expand the quote for my full comments How'bout you call them CDWs or Civilian Defense Weapons. THEN you can use whatever you think fits your role and wont be accused of using the wrong locker room (sarcasm) |