Was this 1964 car the first muscle car? (Page 2 of 3)
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My dad bought a 64 Goat to drive while in college, his brother bought a 64 LeMans. Dad later sold the GTO to his parents (his younger siblings learned to drive in it). His dad- my grandpa, held on to it. And when I showed interest in it when I was 15, gifted it to me. At this point, the car had been sitting for as long as I could remember. Needed lots of work even to just be a daily driver. Work that I certainly couldn't afford to do as a 15 year old kid. So, the car continued to sit until my grandpa passed right before I turned 16. My dad said there was no room and no funds, so the car had to go. He found a buyer that wanted both the GTO and it's LeMans sister that dad had stored-also for as long as I could remember. I want to say he let them go for something like $2500 for the pair. |
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Originally Posted By R2point0: I think people are defining muscle car as intermediate body, excluding full size lines like the Impala. Which I believe is an artificial distinction. Originally Posted By R2point0: Originally Posted By triburst1: 1962 Impala SS 409 was the first muscle car. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/34777/IMG_6913_jpeg-3830802.JPG I've always thought that the muscle car era started when manufacturers began stuffing their big engines into mid-sized cars. All the car guys I know also considered that to be the beginning of the muscle car era, which by following that definition means the 64 GTO was the first muscle car. Many books and magazines I have read also consider it to be the beginning. Originally Posted By Mudpie1313: Buick also had the Wildcat with the aluminum V8. Quite a few cars in that era started with performance. Though they did not qualify as a "muscle car". I have my father's 68.  https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/349755/20260605_182601_jpg-3830810.JPG The Wildcat never had the aluminum 215 ci V8. The only Buick that the 215 went in was the Special. All the Wildcats had big ole torquey iron block and head V8s (401s to 455s). My father bought a 65 Wildcat new. With the 425 ci V8 and TH400 it was a road monster. Lots of fond memories in that car. |
PFG #39
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Originally Posted By R2point0: 1955 Chrysler C-300 Came to post THIS |
Putting the 'dump' in mag dump
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The 1949 Oldsmobile Rocket 88 is kind of considered the OG muscle car. Attached File |
33.33 RPM
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FPNI. After that things went wild with cool cars from the factory along with some dealers coming out with their own versions like the Mr. Norm cars. That said, the early '60s performance cars had their own allure. Max Wedge Mopars, 409 and Z-11 full size Chevies and 427 Fords were all pretty cool. It was a great time to be a high school gearhead. |
"An age of glory passed like a lightning flash. The mandate of heaven passed from you but you didn't see. Times change and power passes. It is the pity of the world."
Song dynasty poet
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Originally Posted By 1969GTX: 1962 Plymouth Max Wedge would like a word. This man knows his shit. The basic definition of "muscle car" is a car that came equipped with a larger engine than it was designed for. That means a compact or midsized car with a larger engine that was originally meant for a larger car. These early max wedge Mopars really were the first cars that fit that definition. |
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Originally Posted By gearjammer351: This man knows his shit. The basic definition of "muscle car" is a car that came equipped with a larger engine than it was designed for. That means a compact or midsized car with a larger engine that was originally meant for a larger car. These early max wedge Mopars really were the first cars that fit that definition. Originally Posted By gearjammer351: Originally Posted By 1969GTX: 1962 Plymouth Max Wedge would like a word. This man knows his shit. The basic definition of "muscle car" is a car that came equipped with a larger engine than it was designed for. That means a compact or midsized car with a larger engine that was originally meant for a larger car. These early max wedge Mopars really were the first cars that fit that definition. The Max Wedge cars were very cool, but there were not the first "muscle cars." As noted, the first one to wear that title is the aforementioned '64 GTO. I think most real authorities will agree with that. |
"An age of glory passed like a lightning flash. The mandate of heaven passed from you but you didn't see. Times change and power passes. It is the pity of the world."
Song dynasty poet
Song dynasty poet
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Originally Posted By RTUtah: Yeah there's absolutely nothing about modern "go-fast" rides that interest me. The classics just can't be defeated. I'm old, grew up owing and driving these cars and still enjoy them today but to say they "can't be defeated" is just denial. Plenty of modern commuter cars would destroy a "high performance" car of yesteryear by any metric used to describe a "muscle car". We (American made) have 3-1/2 liter V6s making more hp than any of the big V8s from the 60s and 70s made and they'll last 200K+ miles. What made them special then is commonplace today. What makes them special today is nostalgia, and that's okay. |
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Originally Posted By 917-30: I've always thought that the muscle car era started when manufacturers began stuffing their big engines into mid-sized cars. All the car guys I know also considered that to be the beginning of the muscle car era, which by following that definition means the 64 GTO was the first muscle car. Many books and magazines I have read also consider it to be the beginning. The Wildcat never had the aluminum 215 ci V8. The only Buick that the 215 went in was the Special. All the Wildcats had big ole torquey iron block and head V8s (401s to 455s). My father bought a 65 Wildcat new. With the 425 ci V8 and TH400 it was a road monster. Lots of fond memories in that car. My memory ain't what it used to be. I had an uncle that had a convertible Buick that I thought he said had a 310 aluminum engine in it. Wildcat may have not been the name of it. It wasn't a boat of a car either. He also had a 51 Jeepster and another Willys military Jeep. I had pictures of them long ago. |
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Originally Posted By housewolf: In what metric? Safety? Acceleration? Braking? Handling? Fuel economy? Reliability? You know, attributes that enthusiasts use to judge automobiles. I'm old, grew up owing and driving these cars and still enjoy them today but to say they "can't be defeated" is just denial. Plenty of modern commuter cars would destroy a "high performance" car of yesteryear by any metric used to describe a "muscle car". We (American made) have 3-1/2 liter V6s making more hp than any of the big V8s from the 60s and 70s made and they'll last 200K+ miles. What made them special then is commonplace today. What makes them special today is nostalgia, and that's okay. Now? Even high performance cars are closer to appliances. At the middle, my 2017 Passat doesn't feel like my 02 Golf, 97 Passat, 86 Jetta, and especially not my 72 Karmann Ghia. It's faster, better handling, more reliable, etc. But it's *boring.* It doesn't feel like a German car. (Yes, I know, made in Tennessee.) It feels like every other mid size sedan. It has no personality. |
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Originally Posted By EDDIECRUM: I'm lying in bed with a total knee replacement in some degree of pain and you guys are my best medicine and I appreciate your response to my car threads. Thanks for entertaining me. Keeps my mind off the pain.   |
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Originally Posted By Strela: The Max Wedge cars were very cool, but there were not the first "muscle cars." As noted, the first one to wear that title is the aforementioned '64 GTO. I think most real authorities will agree with that. Originally Posted By Strela: Originally Posted By gearjammer351: Originally Posted By 1969GTX: 1962 Plymouth Max Wedge would like a word. This man knows his shit. The basic definition of "muscle car" is a car that came equipped with a larger engine than it was designed for. That means a compact or midsized car with a larger engine that was originally meant for a larger car. These early max wedge Mopars really were the first cars that fit that definition. The Max Wedge cars were very cool, but there were not the first "muscle cars." As noted, the first one to wear that title is the aforementioned '64 GTO. I think most real authorities will agree with that. The Max Wedge cars came out 2 years before the GTO. They were built with big engines to compete in NHRA. The GTO has better fan support, but the Maxies were the first. |
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Originally Posted By EDDIECRUM: I’m lying in bed with a total knee replacement in some degree of pain and you guys are my best medicine and I appreciate your response to my car threads. Thanks for entertaining me. Keeps my mind off the pain. I hope you heal up quick and completely! |
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Originally Posted By R2point0: 1955 Chrysler C-300 |
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Originally Posted By Mudpie1313: My memory ain't what it used to be. I had an uncle that had a convertible Buick that I thought he said had a 310 aluminum engine in it. Wildcat may have not been the name of it. It wasn't a boat of a car either. He also had a 51 Jeepster and another Willys military Jeep. I had pictures of them long ago. Originally Posted By Mudpie1313: Originally Posted By 917-30: I've always thought that the muscle car era started when manufacturers began stuffing their big engines into mid-sized cars. All the car guys I know also considered that to be the beginning of the muscle car era, which by following that definition means the 64 GTO was the first muscle car. Many books and magazines I have read also consider it to be the beginning. The Wildcat never had the aluminum 215 ci V8. The only Buick that the 215 went in was the Special. All the Wildcats had big ole torquey iron block and head V8s (401s to 455s). My father bought a 65 Wildcat new. With the 425 ci V8 and TH400 it was a road monster. Lots of fond memories in that car. My memory ain't what it used to be. I had an uncle that had a convertible Buick that I thought he said had a 310 aluminum engine in it. Wildcat may have not been the name of it. It wasn't a boat of a car either. He also had a 51 Jeepster and another Willys military Jeep. I had pictures of them long ago. If the engine hadn't been swapped into something else it was probably a Skylark convertible similar to the one below. Attached File Buick only sold the aluminum engine as a 215 ci V8, but IIRC they could be bumped up to just over 300ci, so maybe his car had been hot rodded. |
PFG #39
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Yes and no. The’61 Impala SS 409 is one I would have on the list. I don’t get why a full-size car can’t be considered a muscle car. When it had plenty of muscle. Edit to add Quick interweb search shows similar mid 15 second 1/4 mile times. With some high 14’s claimed for the GTO. But the Z11 409 ‘63 Impala’s were knocking on 11’s. Was the Ford V8 the first muscle car for the public? |
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A.I. (and NASCAR history) says this one fits the definition: https://www.goldeagle.com/tips-tools/classic-car-profile-1949-oldsmobile-rocket-88/ Attached File ETA : almost beat , but poster above had the wrong trim. |
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An old neighbor of mine and his Nova at the now closed Sacramento raceway. bad ass red nova sacramento raceway |
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Originally Posted By 917-30: If the engine hadn't been swapped into something else it was probably a Skylark convertible similar to the one below. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/440308/1000006613_webp-3830951.JPG Buick only sold the aluminum engine as a 215 ci V8, but IIRC they could be bumped up to just over 300ci, so maybe his car had been hot rodded. That's it, The car looked like that except it was blue. I wouldn't doubt that it had been mildly hot nodded. More than likely, with my grandfathers help. I do believe he had owned that car since it was almost new. I was around 16 when I saw it. The last time I saw him I was in my late 20s and he still had the car. Not sure what happened to his cars after he passed. He lived in Danville, Va. all his life. |
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Originally Posted By EDDIECRUM: I’m lying in bed with a total knee replacement in some degree of pain and you guys are my best medicine and I appreciate your response to my car threads. Thanks for entertaining me. Keeps my mind off the pain. It's getting harder to get in my 911 too, basically have to slide down the seatback like a sack of potatoes. Think Jim Wrangler or whatever his name was had a hand in it too. John DeLorean wrote a book, "On A Clear Day You Can See General Motors," just after he got shown the door at GM. Many of the problems of GM can still be traced even back then. |
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Originally Posted By R2point0: But the metric to which he was referring was how they feel. Their personalities. Cars used to have particular personalities, often related to their countries of origin. Italian cars felt different from German, German from British, British from French, French from American. Their styling was distinctive as well. Now? Even high performance cars are closer to appliances. At the middle, my 2017 Passat doesn't feel like my 02 Golf, 97 Passat, 86 Jetta, and especially not my 72 Karmann Ghia. It's faster, better handling, more reliable, etc. But it's *boring.* It doesn't feel like a German car. (Yes, I know, made in Tennessee.) It feels like every other mid size sedan. It has no personality.  I get what you're saying. My first car was a 4 year old '67 GTO. I've been a car/motorcycle guy a long time. During the late 80s & early 90s I thought we'd seen the end of an era but the last 25 years performance cars have come back with a vengeance |
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John DeLorean gets the credit for creating the first "muscle car" but there were others before the GTO that met the conditions without being full factory race cars like the Ford Thunderbolt. AMC put a pretty hot mill in a Rambler in the late '50s, for instance. Chrysler had 390 horsepower full size luxury early hemi cars (and later 425hp super stock Max Wedges) before the GTO and Chevy allowed you to order choppity choppity blam blam 425hp 409 mills in Impalas. Oh, mid-size production cars with a big motor? Okay, GTO wins then. |
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Originally Posted By 1969GTX: The Max Wedge cars came out 2 years before the GTO. They were built with big engines to compete in NHRA. The GTO has better fan support, but the Maxies were the first. Those Mopars, especially the lightweight ones with the rare powertrain options, are really factory drag cars similar to the later Ford Fairlane Thunderbolt. They were made available to support the brand's motorsports activities and supply sponsored race teams, but were really never promoted as models for sale as everyday drivers. A small number of purchasers checked the right option boxes on the Savoy order form, but the GTO was a deliberate factory package, including appearance changes to make it stand out. I think the Max Wedge cars helped show the manufacturers' executives that there was demand for something like that to have a more prominent place in the model line. |
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All be honest I've never seen one of those anywhere outside of your pics on this forum they must be quite rare. |
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Originally Posted By R2point0: But the metric to which he was referring was how they feel. Their personalities. Cars used to have particular personalities, often related to their countries of origin. Italian cars felt different from German, German from British, British from French, French from American. Their styling was distinctive as well. Now? Even high performance cars are closer to appliances. At the middle, my 2017 Passat doesn't feel like my 02 Golf, 97 Passat, 86 Jetta, and especially not my 72 Karmann Ghia. It's faster, better handling, more reliable, etc. But it's *boring.* It doesn't feel like a German car. (Yes, I know, made in Tennessee.) It feels like every other mid size sedan. It has no personality. This is just nostalgic cope. Cars don’t have personalities period. If yoh like the way they look fine, that’s a good argument. Otherwise, most old muscle cars are shit. |
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| Funny thing about those old muscle cars, the only person who kept them stock was the original owner. I put 5 grand into my 70 4-4-2 455 engine in 1997 money. I put another 700 bucks into the clutch and about 400 into suspension mods. The 79 trans am I dropped the 455 into was a beast but different. |
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A father of a friend was a automotive engineer who had a side gig with consumer reports where he would get a loaner car that he would drive for a couple of weeks then wright a report. He had lots of cool cars over the years , bummer was my buddy and I couldn't drive them but his mother could . There was a memorable day when mom had the red,white and blue AMX Javilin pulling out of the church parking lot and ended up doing a accidental burn out on Sunday morning. Mom was used to driving weak ass sportscars where you had to be a bit agressive with t |
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Originally Posted By EDDIECRUM: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/84774/IMG_2497_jpeg-3830770.JPGhttps://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/84774/IMG_2496_jpeg-3830773.JPG Baby boomers were beginning to make money and wanted a muscle car to haul the family. 389 V8, tri-power and metallic lined drum brakes. Your favorite coke dealer John DeLoren developed the car from a Tempest and the mid size muscle car rave was started. Show me your cars.  I’ve always had an itch for a 1968-1972 lemans. Or even a 4 door model from the previous gen. |
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Originally Posted By Badlatitude: Alot of you don't seem to know what the actual definition of a muscle car is. Neither full size nor pony cars are muscle cars even tho as a blanket statement we now call them all muscle cars. They are not. This! In 1955 Pontiac Chieftan had a tri power V8 but it was small, I believe around 247ci. Pontiac was considered the high performance division of GMC. Not big enough to be a muscle car. |
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Beautiful, 55? |
