Posted: 1/7/2024 11:12:51 AM EDT
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World War II in the Pacific. Admirals Ernest King and Nimitz wanted to invade Formosa/Taiwan. That island had been under Japanese control since 1905 and there was plenty of time to fortify it and indoctrinate the population (at least cower them). The USN felt that by bypassing the Philippines the Allies could stage their invasion of Japan from Taiwan/Formosa and provide a more direct supply line to China. MacArthur felt that we had a moral obligation to the Filipino peoples to liberate them and that it would cut the Japanese off from other occupied areas. Additionally the Philippines could be used as an initial staging point. Both presented their arguments to FDR in Hawaii and the latter decided in favor of MacArthur. Considering the US had plenty of guerilla support to harass the Japanese and to gather intelligence, it was probably the better decision to make. My question: To what extent would the Formosans/Taiwanese have fought/died for the Emperor? To what extent were Japanese fortifications on the island back then. Would it have cost more American lives to have taken Formosa/Taiwan than liberating the Philippines? |
#53 says, "Take 22 mg absorbed Vit C per lb plus 1 gram Chaga daily. Don't forget 2000iu Vit D-3&K-2, 30 mg Zinc and 2 mg Cu."
Unfettered with the formalities of an economics education but well read in monetary history.
Unfettered with the formalities of an economics education but well read in monetary history.
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Looking back there were several blunders in the island hopping campaign and MacArthur was well, all about MacArthur and leaving a legacy at the expense of others. The Japanese forces in the Philippines, and on several other islands, should have been left to die on the vine. |
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Originally Posted By LittleAugieMo: Would never happen..."dug- out doug" had already decided the U.S.was going to the Philippines. He and f.d.r. were "a@# h*%$" buddies. During the Great Depression FDR of necessity halved the Army's ammunition budget. MacArthur was pissed and said to FDR that when an American soldier gets killed his last word would be, "Roosevelt!" FDR told MacArthur to leave the office. MacArthur for some reason was popular and unlike Gen. Short and Admiral Kimmel at Pearl Harbor, FDR couldn't sack him for the Philippines. |
#53 says, "Take 22 mg absorbed Vit C per lb plus 1 gram Chaga daily. Don't forget 2000iu Vit D-3 & K-2, 30 mg Zinc and 2 mg Cu."
Unfettered with the formalities of an economics education but well read in monetary history.
Unfettered with the formalities of an economics education but well read in monetary history.
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Originally Posted By Kraquine: Looking back there were several blunders in the island hopping campaign and MacArthur was well, all about MacArthur and leaving a legacy at the expense of others. The Japanese forces in the Philippines, and on several other islands, should have been left to die on the vine. |
USN Retired: APR 1988 - MAY 2008
"My center is giving way, my right is falling back, situation excellent, I attack." —Ferdinand Foch
"My center is giving way, my right is falling back, situation excellent, I attack." —Ferdinand Foch
Pathetic earthlings... who can save you now?
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Trying to take Taiwan while leaving Japanese forces in the Philippines would have been "unwise". American forces would be mounting a major invasion in range of land based bombers on both sides. sandwiched in range of aircraft from both Mainland China & from the Philippines. The Japanese bombers that wiped out MacArthur's Air Force at Clark Field on December 8th 1941 flew from Taiwan. Plus the Japanese had long established rule over Taiwan and had decades to prepare defenses. |
Pathetic earthlings. Hurling your bodies out into the void, without the slightest inkling of who or what is out here. If you had known anything about the true nature of the universe, anything at all, you would've hidden from it in terror.
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McManus' third book in his trilogy about the US Army in the Pacific, To The End of The Earth, somewhat responds to the question and I just finished the first chapter last night. There were Formosan soldiers in Japanese service. They were guarding a PoW camp and were cut off by a raiding force whose intent was to liberate the PoWs. Their commander had PoWs whom were held hostage and negotiations ensued that allowed for them to leave but without their heavy weapons (rifles and pistols only) - sort of "honors of war" type thing ala 18th Century. Once they were free of their American escorts, they broke up in all directions and fled despite their captain trying to hold them together as a unit. If this was characteristic of the Formosans (not saying they were cowards but rather reluctant draftees who didn't revel in the notion of dying for the emperor), they had to be kept under tight control to keep them fighting. Philippines was the correct choice and Formosa/Taiwan would have been been more costly. |
#53 says, "Take 22 mg absorbed Vit C per lb plus 1 gram Chaga daily. Don't forget 2000iu Vit D-3 & K-2, 30 mg Zinc and 2 mg Cu."
Unfettered with the formalities of an economics education but well read in monetary history.
Unfettered with the formalities of an economics education but well read in monetary history.
|
Originally Posted By Kraquine: Looking back there were several blunders in the island hopping campaign and MacArthur was well, all about MacArthur and leaving a legacy at the expense of others. The Japanese forces in the Philippines, and on several other islands, should have been left to die on the vine. I could not agree more. MacArthur was one of the worst "Successful" generals in American history, hey we build statues of him... |
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What irked both GI and Marines alike was MacArthur's propensity to declare an island "secured" and they (GIs and Marines) were still engaged in heavy fighting. He did that quite frequently too. MacArthur was a headline grabber who declined sharing the spotlight and took all the glory for himself. Eichelberger (I Corps and later 8th Army) grew to hate the man. BTW, Peleliu and Anguar were both unneccessary. |
#53 says, "Take 22 mg absorbed Vit C per lb plus 1 gram Chaga daily. Don't forget 2000iu Vit D-3 & K-2, 30 mg Zinc and 2 mg Cu."
Unfettered with the formalities of an economics education but well read in monetary history.
Unfettered with the formalities of an economics education but well read in monetary history.
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Originally Posted By Riter: What irked both GI and Marines alike was MacArthur's propensity to declare an island "secured" and they (GIs and Marines) were still engaged in heavy fighting. He did that quite frequently too. MacArthur was a headline grabber who declined sharing the spotlight and took all the glory for himself. Eichelberger (I Corps and later 8th Army) grew to hate the man. BTW, Peleliu and Anguar were both unneccessary. There was debate in Nimitz`s command about the need for the Peleliu-Anguar operation. There was a recommendation to cancel it, but Nimitz felt it was better to have a landbased option available. As far as the Taiwan or Phillipines decision, I don`t think Nimitz felt too strongly on the matter. US air & submarine bases on either Taiwan or Luzon would equally serve to cut Japan`s sea lines of communication. I think Halsey`s carrier raids with 3rd Fleet made the answer obvious. The central Phillipines were not heavily defended versus the heavy air strikes from Taiwan that ultimately sank the USS Princeton, and damaged the new USS Houston. I think invadng Taiwan would have turned into another Okinawa. |
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Spain ceded the Philippines to the US under terms ending the Spanish-American War. They were technically an American colony, and thousands of American troops and civilians were prisoner there. Filipinos had no love for the Japanese. |
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Originally Posted By arbob: There was debate in Nimitz`s command about the need for the Peleliu-Anguar operation. There was a recommendation to cancel it, but Nimitz felt it was better to have a landbased option available. As far as the Taiwan or Phillipines decision, I don`t think Nimitz felt too strongly on the matter. US air & submarine bases on either Taiwan or Luzon would equally serve to cut Japan`s sea lines of communication. I think Halsey`s carrier raids with 3rd Fleet made the answer obvious. The central Phillipines were not heavily defended versus the heavy air strikes from Taiwan that ultimately sank the USS Princeton, and damaged the new USS Houston. I think invadng Taiwan would have turned into another Okinawa. Concur. Much bigger land mass and a people indoctrinated (but somewhat disloyal) to fight for a foreign emperor. It would have been terrible for us. There was no need for Peleliu or Anguar. It made Dugout Doug happy to have his flank secured. So long as our subs could maintain a blockade, those garrisons would have been starved out. |
#53 says, "Take 22 mg absorbed Vit C per lb plus 1 gram Chaga daily. Don't forget 2000iu Vit D-3 & K-2, 30 mg Zinc and 2 mg Cu."
Unfettered with the formalities of an economics education but well read in monetary history.
Unfettered with the formalities of an economics education but well read in monetary history.
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I think the loses on Taiwan would have been much higher than Iwo Jima and Okinawa combined. Japan occupied that island since 1905 and has had four decades to indoctrinate and fortify that island. If anyone knows any Taiwanese, perhaps (s)he can clue us in on the defensive preparations the Japanese made there. I never went there but knew that the democratic KMT was no better than a fascist state under Chiang Kai Shek (1949 onwards). |
#53 says, "Take 22 mg absorbed Vit C per lb plus 1 gram Chaga daily. Don't forget 2000iu Vit D-3 & K-2, 30 mg Zinc and 2 mg Cu."
Unfettered with the formalities of an economics education but well read in monetary history.
Unfettered with the formalities of an economics education but well read in monetary history.
|
Originally Posted By cpg1: One thing to include in discussion is would invasions of Iwo Jima and Okinawa been necessary if Formosa was secured? Iwo Jima and Okinawa both provided additional airfields for closer support for the invasion of Japan. Okinawa and its` nearby islands also provided anchorages for the fleet. Iwo Jima`s airfields actually saved thousands of aircrew by providing emergency airfiels for B-29s. It also allowed P-51s to fly escort for bomber missions. |
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It had already been determined that any invasion of Formosa would not happen until the end of the war in Europe. Not enough troops. Bypassing the Philippines would have been the worst mistake possible. How would you feel if your country “bypassed “ you and millions of your fellow citizens and the brave men and women who had been fighting and dying for the last three years of Japanese occupation? I have been to the Philippines and Leyte. My father landed with MacArthur at Letye and then on to Okinawa. The people of the Philippines still have great respect for Americans. That would not be the case if they had been left to the “mercy” of the Japanese. And, a final thought for those of you “dugout Doug” people. You need to do a lot more research. MacArthur is the most decorated soldier in American history. The vast majority of the troops that fought under him thought he was the best general of the war. Dad did. |
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Originally Posted By roadrod55: It had already been determined that any invasion of Formosa would not happen until the end of the war in Europe. Not enough troops. Bypassing the Philippines would have been the worst mistake possible. How would you feel if your country “bypassed “ you and millions of your fellow citizens and the brave men and women who had been fighting and dying for the last three years of Japanese occupation? I have been to the Philippines and Leyte. My father landed with MacArthur at Letye and then on to Okinawa. The people of the Philippines still have great respect for Americans. That would not be the case if they had been left to the “mercy” of the Japanese. And, a final thought for those of you “dugout Doug” people. You need to do a lot more research. MacArthur is the most decorated soldier in American history. The vast majority of the troops that fought under him thought he was the best general of the war. Dad did. IIRC , the "Dugout Doug" moniker was given to him by his troops in the Phillipines. Also read John Toland`s book "But Not in Shame." General Bereton (comander US Far Eastern Air Force) didn`t think highly of McArthur. Mac is quoted in that book as stating he didn`t believe Pearl Harbor was an overt Act of War to his staff. He thought it might been the result of a cabal officers acting of their own. He would not let Bereton(SP?) launch an immediate B-17 attack on Formosa for that reason as well as a lack of intelligence. They would of course be destroyed on the ground. |
| Not sure of the Philippines were that important before we decided to invade them but the invasion did lead to the destruction of most of what was left of the Japanese navy. Nimitz was opposed to the invasion initially bu Halsey supported it and Nimitz came around to the idea. The Navy insisted that Nimitz become a 5 star admiral so that MacArthur did not outrank him and thereby have total control of the direction of the war in the Pacific. |
| Halsey favored the Phillipine option because he had first hand experience of the defenses of both the Philipines and Formosa. The defenses of Formosa cost him the light carrier USS Princeton sunk, and two cruisers severely damaged, plus aircraft. He had basically run wild in strikes in the Philipines, and noted in his reports that went to the Combined Chiefs of Staff at their Ottawa conference, that the air defences in the central philipines were ,"a hollow shell." |
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What the invasion of the Philippines did do was trigger the death of the Japanese navy. Their plans called for a series of battles to be triggered if they were invaded. The Japanese navy was a huge fan of "The Art of War" by Sun Tzu. Their plans of battle always included complicated maneuvers by multiple forces in distant support of each other the belief that this would confuse the enemy and lead him into elaborate traps where the IJN would emerge triumphant. They stuck to this plan until the end. So in the end the destruction of the IJN was a good result of the invasion. This opened up possibilities for new uses of segments on the fleet as raiding forces showing up at various Japanese held areas hitting hard and slipping away with little fear of reprisal. These parties were only possible because of the fast battleships we now had. A few carriers and battleships accompanied by a cruiser and destroyer escort could penetrate deep into Japanese held territory. The battleships would do high speed refueling of the destroyers along the way. No need for tankers to accompany the fleet. Thai is how my father wound up with a ribbon that would look very familiar to those who served in Vietnam. One of their raids took out several merchant and patrol vessels in Haipong Harbor. No comments on MacArthur. The book "American Caesar" offers a pretty good look at him both good and bad. The book "Plain Speaking: An Oral Autobiography of Harry Truman" offers Truman's side of the several incidents of insubordination that led to MacArthur's being removed from command in Korea. |
| Having lived in Taiwan in the late 60's early 70's I would say Taiwan is almost a natural fortification. There are limited suitable beach heads and most of the island is mountainous jungle. The waters surrounding Taiwan have deadly sea snakes and the jungles are filled with cobras and "100 pacer" snakes. It was wise not to invade Taiwan and the Chinese should take note... |
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