Posted: 5/15/2026 6:23:12 AM EDT
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Really? Then it's probably wrong. Most of the New Testament was written out of the necessity for the Apostles to correct the blatant error of first century churches. Whenever I hear, "first century Christians" or " early church" used as argument weight, I'm immediately suspect. Not all of it is faulty, but enough to add 20 or so books to Holy Scripture. |
Don't be so open-minded that your brains fall out.
General education should not be mere job training, but training in how to be fully human.
General education should not be mere job training, but training in how to be fully human.
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Originally Posted By MRW: Really? Then it's probably wrong. Most of the New Testament was written out of the necessity for the Apostles to correct the blatant error of first century churches. Whenever I hear, "first century Christians" or " early church" used as argument weight, I'm immediately suspect. Not all of it is faulty, but enough to add 20 or so books to Holy Scripture. That's why you can't use tradition alone nor scripture alone. |
Why is the sky blue?
What makes the green grass grow?
What makes the green grass grow?
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Jesus didn’t like tradition. The early church were the people. They had the scriptures and letters. No pulpits, stained glass windows, etc. They met in peoples home or outside. They went to the temple on the Feast days. |
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
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Originally Posted By TangoFoxtrot: Why not have the Apostles personally pick the local leaders, several regional leaders over them, and one in charge over all of them, perhaps a successor to St Peter since he was the one left in charge by Jesus? The one Jesus called "Satan", and told him to step back? The one Paul went to Jerusalem to see and confronted him to his face? See, Peter was also part of the first century Church and also needed correction. |
Don't be so open-minded that your brains fall out.
General education should not be mere job training, but training in how to be fully human.
General education should not be mere job training, but training in how to be fully human.
|
Originally Posted By MRW: The one Jesus called "Satan", and told him to step back? The one Paul went to Jerusalem to see and confronted him to his face? See, Peter was also part of the first century Church and also needed correction. Well, if you're looking for people that have never been wrong or needed corrected on anything, that rules out literally everyone ever except Jesus. Also, sātān is Hebrew for "adversary", along with the formal name given to the Serpant from Genesis. So, if someone was called "satan" in Hebrew, it could be (contextually) easily be, "Get behind me, advesary". While I agree just because the "early church" did something doesn't make it right, but it's up to us to take anything we see from humans and test it against the Scripture as a whole and pray for discernment. Edit: the more I think about what you said, the more I understand, and I'd have to say I strongly agree, to a point. |
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Originally Posted By MRW: The one Jesus called "Satan", and told him to step back? The one Paul went to Jerusalem to see and confronted him to his face? See, Peter was also part of the first century Church and also needed correction. Peter was a terribly flawed man and yet Jesus made the perfect choice in choosing him as the first leader ("prime minister" not king) of his Church on earth. |
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Originally Posted By MRW: yes. I think the American Church needs some serious correction. There's enough Scripture to do it. Scripture alone cannot correct a church, only a living infallible authority could do that. How could you correct someone using Scripture when the disagreement is on Scripture? It just turns into a he said, she said about the text. Christ built us a Church on a rock that he promised not even the gates of hell would prevail against. You need the Magisterium, Sacred Tradition, and Sacred Scripture working together to resolve issues and disputes. None of those three authorities can contradict eachother. For the record, Tradition is the one deposit of faith given to the apostles and handed down to their successors the bishops. There's a big misconception about what we mean when we say Tradition. |
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One pattern I've seen is people using historical references in Acts as if that is a prescription for "church." The audience for that book was, quite evidently, already doing things differently, lest old farts telling stories about "back in the day" would be like writing now about how we used to drive these things called "automobiles" years ago. The Atheist and anti-Christian crowds will do this too, citing things like in Chapt 2 (44-45) and suggesting Christians are being hypocrites if they don't live like a hippie commune. "Awe came upon everyone, because many wonders and signs were being done by the apostles. All who believed were together and had all things in common; they would sell their possessions and goods and distribute the proceeds to all, as any had need." If the Christian audience when that was written was still doing that, the text would make no sense. |
History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which Trump is always right.
Modern life is one steep, perpetual tax on the mathematically impaired
Modern life is one steep, perpetual tax on the mathematically impaired
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Originally Posted By MRW: The one Jesus called "Satan", and told him to step back? The one Paul went to Jerusalem to see and confronted him to his face? See, Peter was also part of the first century Church and also needed correction. Originally Posted By MRW: Originally Posted By TangoFoxtrot: Why not have the Apostles personally pick the local leaders, several regional leaders over them, and one in charge over all of them, perhaps a successor to St Peter since he was the one left in charge by Jesus? The one Jesus called "Satan", and told him to step back? The one Paul went to Jerusalem to see and confronted him to his face? See, Peter was also part of the first century Church and also needed correction. Leadership does not mean bullying, or creating a climate where people are afraid to speak up. |
History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which Trump is always right.
Modern life is one steep, perpetual tax on the mathematically impaired
Modern life is one steep, perpetual tax on the mathematically impaired
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Originally Posted By MRW: Really? Then it's probably wrong. Most of the New Testament was written out of the necessity for the Apostles to correct the blatant error of first century churches. Whenever I hear, "first century Christians" or " early church" used as argument weight, I'm immediately suspect. Not all of it is faulty, but enough to add 20 or so books to Holy Scripture. This is a bold / broad statement that has since been narrowed down to uncertainty about the ordination of women. First off, the ordination of women is the surest outward indicator of a denomination's inward spiritual corruption. From there, it is only small steps to support for killing babies and then on to celebrating LGBTQXYZ. I would recommend that you study the history of the Church (with emphasis on the Church councils), read the writings of the early church fathers, and systematic theology (use Aquinas as part of this). These studies would clarify most of you views for you, and give you the faith to accept what you don't understand. |
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Originally Posted By TangoFoxtrot: If a religion ordains women is it no longer Christian? Originally Posted By TangoFoxtrot: If a religion ordains women is it no longer Christian? While I wouldn't go that far yet, I'm hard pressed to think of a denomination which has ordained women for a lengthy period of time without teaching Apostasy as Virtue. You put women in authority positions within the church and they will corrupt it. But my first encounter with that sort of Heresy was in the 1960s, when I'd never heard of female or homo clergy. My Methodist minister (I remember him as a great guy, left town when I was 5, so my strongest memory of him is in his home office when he taught me how to run the ditto machine to print church flyers) brought in a female friend to preach to the congregation about the right to murder babies. Decades later I wonder (hope) if the abortion activism got him fired. He retired from his next church, a church that went United Methodist during his tenure. And last year, after the inauguration, his daughter, my best friend when I was five, put up a Facebook profile pic featuring the nasty 'bishop' from the inauguration labeled 'I'm with her'. So, he was willing to preach under UMC guidelines and at least one member of his family is a barking moonbat leftist. EDIT: this post wouldn't have been necessary if I'd read monadth's post first. Originally Posted By monadh: First off, the ordination of women is the surest outward indicator of a denomination's inward spiritual corruption. From there, it is only small steps to support for killing babies and then on to celebrating LGBTQXYZ. |
Exposure to views that distress and offend is a form of education unto itself. -U.S. Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit in Reges v Cauce
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Originally Posted By monadh: This is a bold / broad statement that has since been narrowed down to uncertainty about the ordination of women. First off, the ordination of women is the surest outward indicator of a denomination's inward spiritual corruption. From there, it is only small steps to support for killing babies and then on to celebrating LGBTQXYZ. I would recommend that you study the history of the Church (with emphasis on the Church councils), read the writings of the early church fathers, and systematic theology (use Aquinas as part of this). These studies would clarify most of you views for you, and give you the faith to accept what you don't understand. I'll say it again. To use the phrase, "the first century church did/did not believe this" is not a viable argument for any theological position. the first century church was a mess, and necessitated the epistles to correct them. |
Don't be so open-minded that your brains fall out.
General education should not be mere job training, but training in how to be fully human.
General education should not be mere job training, but training in how to be fully human.
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Originally Posted By MRW: the first century church was a mess, and necessitated the epistles to correct them. Jesus set up the Church. Some outsiders, troublemakers, and new converts tried to change their local congregation with their own agendas. The Apostles step in to correct. The Church was NOT a mess. Local congregations in one area could be a temporary mess, but Peter and Paul and the other leadership of the Church would step in to correct them. |
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Originally Posted By MRW: No to the bold, and your post is pretentious. I've done all those things for years. I'll say it again. To use the phrase, "the first century church did/did not believe this" is not a viable argument for any theological position. the first century church was a mess, and necessitated the epistles to correct them. The teaching authority of the Church still issues letters of correction and proper understanding even to this day. Because some members of the Church need correction FROM the Church is an indication that the Church is working precisely as our Lord intended it to. Also, the letters of correction sent to various churches by men like St. Paul are typically admonishing them for not adhering to the Gospel already preached to them. If evidence of human rebellion against the teachings of Christ and the Apostles within the body of the Church is a "mess" then the Church has been and always will be a "mess" until the Lord's return, no matter the frequency and sincerity of correction from the Church's earthly authority. |
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Originally Posted By TangoFoxtrot: I don't think this is accurate. Jesus set up the Church. Some outsiders, troublemakers, and new converts tried to change their local congregation with their own agendas. The Apostles step in to correct. The Church was NOT a mess. Local congregations in one area could be a temporary mess, but Peter and Paul and the other leadership of the Church would step in to correct them. I still think my original and repeated statement is accurate. Just because there's a record that some church in the first century believed or practiced something does not necessarily justify it as correct. |
Don't be so open-minded that your brains fall out.
General education should not be mere job training, but training in how to be fully human.
General education should not be mere job training, but training in how to be fully human.
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Originally Posted By monadh: First off, the ordination of women is the surest outward indicator of a denomination's inward spiritual corruption. From there, it is only small steps to support for killing babies and then on to celebrating LGBTQXYZ. ... I've thought a lot about why this is, and the best I can tell it has everything to do with whether the orientation is on the self or on Christ. Who is serving whom? There is this perception that men have a certain privilege, and that it's not "fair" that women should have it too. The focus is never on actual service to the Church, but service to one's ego. People who sincerely wish to serve will seek any opportunity available. It's the difference between going to the armed forces recruiter and enlisting in what they have available, or seeking a reserve JAG officer position because you want a photo in uniform for your congressional campaign. Both surround themselves in rhetoric of "service." But one is oriented primarily in serving oneself. There are so many opportunities for women to serve in the Church. Service is about humbling oneself. Seeking to bring the Church in line with the modern "world" or other such rhetoric is self-serving nonsense to excuse a self-serving orientation. Once that self-serving orientation has taken root, the other observed corruption naturally flourishes. |
History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which Trump is always right.
Modern life is one steep, perpetual tax on the mathematically impaired
Modern life is one steep, perpetual tax on the mathematically impaired
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Originally Posted By MRW: We don't disagree. I did not say where the mess came from. it certainly did not come from Christ or the Apostles. I still think my original and repeated statement is accurate. Just because there's a record that some church in the first century believed or practiced something does not necessarily justify it as correct. |
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Originally Posted By TangoFoxtrot: Jesus told the Apostles to go teach. The paper records from that period did not survive time well, but those fragments that did survive match what the church was still teaching hundreds of years later and still teaches today. Those with agendas of their own were successfully kept at bay for 1500 years. The problem of ordained women, etc., only exists because powerful political rulers established their own rival versions, which in turn were hijacked by still others with modern agendas that step even further away from Christ. The mess was not with Jesus' early church, which kept order and preserved the teachings of Jesus. |
Don't be so open-minded that your brains fall out.
General education should not be mere job training, but training in how to be fully human.
General education should not be mere job training, but training in how to be fully human.
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Originally Posted By MRW: I think we are defining church differently. You seem to be speaking of the mystical ecclesial Body of Christ. I am speaking of people who identify as Christians and meet together, like the group of Christians in Corinth. Christ organized his church and called its leaders. Some of us believe this continues today instead of an informal group of people who meet together. |
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Originally Posted By MRW: I think we are defining church differently. You seem to be speaking of the mystical ecclesial Body of Christ. I am speaking of people who identify as Christians and meet together, like the group of Christians in Corinth. Originally Posted By MRW: Originally Posted By TangoFoxtrot: Jesus told the Apostles to go teach. The paper records from that period did not survive time well, but those fragments that did survive match what the church was still teaching hundreds of years later and still teaches today. Those with agendas of their own were successfully kept at bay for 1500 years. The problem of ordained women, etc., only exists because powerful political rulers established their own rival versions, which in turn were hijacked by still others with modern agendas that step even further away from Christ. The mess was not with Jesus' early church, which kept order and preserved the teachings of Jesus. Those Christians in Corinth saw themselves as part of a cohesive, visible institution. They welcomed Paul as a teacher because he was commissioned for such purposed and they kept and preserved his letters. |
History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which Trump is always right.
Modern life is one steep, perpetual tax on the mathematically impaired
Modern life is one steep, perpetual tax on the mathematically impaired
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Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam: Those Christians in Corinth saw themselves as part of a cohesive, visible institution. They welcomed Paul as a teacher because he was commissioned for such purposed and they kept and preserved his letters. Hence my original point. |
Don't be so open-minded that your brains fall out.
General education should not be mere job training, but training in how to be fully human.
General education should not be mere job training, but training in how to be fully human.
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Originally Posted By MRW: and they were way out of line in some of their practices and in need of serious correction. Hence my original point. Originally Posted By MRW: Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam: Those Christians in Corinth saw themselves as part of a cohesive, visible institution. They welcomed Paul as a teacher because he was commissioned for such purposed and they kept and preserved his letters. Hence my original point. But there was an institution and mechanism to correct them, and they recognized and acknowledge its authority, hence my point. The first century church wasn't a loose assortment of individual congregations, it was a unified body capable of correcting and coordinating its activities, at least to the degree first century communications technologies made possible. |
History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which Trump is always right.
Modern life is one steep, perpetual tax on the mathematically impaired
Modern life is one steep, perpetual tax on the mathematically impaired
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Originally Posted By MRW: and they were way out of line in some of their practices and in need of serious correction. Hence my original point. Originally Posted By MRW: Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam: Those Christians in Corinth saw themselves as part of a cohesive, visible institution. They welcomed Paul as a teacher because he was commissioned for such purposed and they kept and preserved his letters. Hence my original point. Thankfully we have it all figured out today and have no need for an authoritative Church hierarchy. |
Give me that old time religion
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Originally Posted By MRW: No to the bold, and your post is pretentious. I've done all those things for years. I'll say it again. To use the phrase, "the first century church did/did not believe this" is not a viable argument for any theological position. the first century church was a mess, and necessitated the epistles to correct them. Not being pretentious and also not wanted to presume, you've had the discipline to read Aquinas? If so, carry on then. |
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Yes, and the trouble with Aquinas is the same as Aristotle on one side of history and Rene Descartes on the other side, and that is the assumption that Human reason is superior to other means of knowing and that it is (potentially) infallible. It takes a Galileo and Blaise Pascal to shake that out. Galileo adds experimentation in the physical sciences and Pascal adds in what is loosely called "intuition" for philosophy. "you must experiment", and "I know I'm not dreaming" But God's word stands above all human means, and his last Word was Christ. |
Don't be so open-minded that your brains fall out.
General education should not be mere job training, but training in how to be fully human.
General education should not be mere job training, but training in how to be fully human.