Small CNC Mill - Stupid option or merely sub-optimal? (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 3/1/2025 1:20:20 PM EDT
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TL;DR / BLUF - - does this look like a lightweight but low level & functional hobby mill or is there something I don't know that will make this a purchase from heck? A few things to lay out first.... - I have a decent 12x36 lathe in the process of being setup. (future thread to follow) - I don't have a lot of space left after shoehorning said lathe into my garage. - I don't have a lot of budget left after buying said lathe. - I don't have the ability to move a full size mill, and have limited height at the garage entry. - I don't have any challenging intentions for a lathe - mostly aluminum with the possibility of cutting flats in steel or playing in Delrin. - A manual lathe would be cheaper, but it's the CNC part that appeals to me. - I'm looking for something between the cheap drill press I have, an 80% jig/router, and a Ghost Gunner. - I'd love a fully converted PM-30mv from Procut or to convert one with Arizona CNC parts, but just the conversion parts are out of budget, let alone a full setup. I've found this locally. I know it's not anything to brag about, but it's in budget ($1500), small enough to move, 'some tooling' and ballscrew conversion parts. Description: Cnc conversion in progress all ball screws, this includes tooling and 4th axis and controller Dude says it needs limit switches added and a wiring cleanup, has a GRBL controller, needs something like Candle or G Code Sender to drive it. FB link - --random cheap-ish CNC mill -- Attached File Attached File Attached File |
Disclaimer - OP is bad at knowing things, and might catch on fire.
Vet - Op MMAMA
Every other species kills off their stupid......we cater to them. -- spin-drift
Nobody ever called 911&said I just did something smart. -- TheFlynDutchman
Vet - Op MMAMA
Every other species kills off their stupid......we cater to them. -- spin-drift
Nobody ever called 911&said I just did something smart. -- TheFlynDutchman
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I had the HF mini mill. The non-electronics to it held up well Even after I abused it for a couple years and blew the electronics up, the bed and column were still very well in alignment. It would appear that the electronics are not much of an issue for that CNC conversion, because all of them have been replaced. At least, if I'm looking at the janky pictures right, they have. If that one is still using the OEM spindle motor and controller, I'd pass on it. When I broke mine, those parts were several hundred bucks to replace. The biggest limiting factor to what you will be able to do is the small build envelope. You'll be CNCing watches and matchbox cars for ants. As long as you're good with the size of it, I say go for it. I've spent that much money on dumber shit. |
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Originally Posted By ArimoDave: Have you considered a milling attachment for your 12x36 lathe instead? It won't be a CNC thing, but the rigidity and capacity would not be that much dissimilar. Originally Posted By ArimoDave: Have you considered a milling attachment for your 12x36 lathe instead? It won't be a CNC thing, but the rigidity and capacity would not be that much dissimilar. Originally Posted By giantpune: I had the HF mini mill. The non-electronics to it held up well Even after I abused it for a couple years and blew the electronics up, the bed and column were still very well in alignment. It would appear that the electronics are not much of an issue for that CNC conversion, because all of them have been replaced. At least, if I'm looking at the janky pictures right, they have. If that one is still using the OEM spindle motor and controller, I'd pass on it. When I broke mine, those parts were several hundred bucks to replace. The biggest limiting factor to what you will be able to do is the small build envelope. You'll be CNCing watches and matchbox cars for ants. As long as you're good with the size of it, I say go for it. I've spent that much money on dumber shit. This is the part where things get murky in my head. Yes, these are the cute little kiddie-pool versions of 'real' tools... but just the controller/stepper parts for a PM-25mv cost about as much as the entire setup I'm looking at here. The ball screw parts are another $1k-ish on top, then the insult part of $3k for the base mill. I know I'm not going to pay $6-8k for a pre-built PM-30mv or similar, and the odds are quite low of both finding and moving quick enough to get another deal like the $2k Tormach 770 I missed. I'll focus on the new-to-me lathe for a little while... but it's hard to not think about the mill I can afford and play with next week vs the mill I want. |
Disclaimer - OP is bad at knowing things, and might catch on fire.
Vet - Op MMAMA
Every other species kills off their stupid......we cater to them. -- spin-drift
Nobody ever called 911&said I just did something smart. -- TheFlynDutchman
Vet - Op MMAMA
Every other species kills off their stupid......we cater to them. -- spin-drift
Nobody ever called 911&said I just did something smart. -- TheFlynDutchman
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Originally Posted By Amish_Bill: Small Build envelope... just how small are we talking? Real small if you have anything more than a jeweler's vice. And that chuck in the picture is gonna use up a lot of the Z, too. Should be R8. A set of collets will get you back a couple inches. |
| The hardest item might be stainless endcaps. The biggest item I have in mind is an 80% lower. Top of workpiece maybe 4-5" over deck, plus vise base. I haven't massaged the numbers, but... 5" for part and vice, 3" more for chuck, another 2" for needed bit depth, and we're up to 10" or so. The little Grizzly 4x16 only lists 10.5" spindle-table, and the 4x18 shows a little over 11". I can't imagine this no-name would be any better, and likely a bit worse. |
Disclaimer - OP is bad at knowing things, and might catch on fire.
Vet - Op MMAMA
Every other species kills off their stupid......we cater to them. -- spin-drift
Nobody ever called 911&said I just did something smart. -- TheFlynDutchman
Vet - Op MMAMA
Every other species kills off their stupid......we cater to them. -- spin-drift
Nobody ever called 911&said I just did something smart. -- TheFlynDutchman
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If I'm going to be entertaining the idea of doing manual milling anyway, any thoughts on using a vertical cross slide vise like this one? If I set my cross slide parallel to the chuck, I'll have DRO on Z and Y. A gentle hand on the (likely cheap) leadscrew here and I might be able to get some milling done with both minimal investment AND an excuse to start getting milling .. em... 'bits'? OK - problem one - how to mount to the cross slide. Is it likely there's a less-chinesium version of this that's still affordable while having a nice, compatible wide T slot mount that fits my cross slide?  
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Disclaimer - OP is bad at knowing things, and might catch on fire.
Vet - Op MMAMA
Every other species kills off their stupid......we cater to them. -- spin-drift
Nobody ever called 911&said I just did something smart. -- TheFlynDutchman
Vet - Op MMAMA
Every other species kills off their stupid......we cater to them. -- spin-drift
Nobody ever called 911&said I just did something smart. -- TheFlynDutchman
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ITT you're talking about toys. Not tools. You know the saying, "There's no replacement for displacement." when talking cars? Same goes for machining equipment. Mass and meat where needed makes all the difference in the world. I mean...a lot of people refer to Bridgeports as being made from rubber... Just say no to the cross slide vise. Ok for positioning for hole drilling, but milling isn't going to work well. The tolerances on those is horrible. Table size does not equal work envelope. As example, a Bridgeport is usually 9"x49" or so and travel is something like 11"x22". Then you have interference issues that prevent full use of that travel in one setup. I have a smaller Millrite with a 7"x27" table and it has a travel of 9"x21" if memory serves. Almost as much travel as a Bridgeport, but the machine is physically about 3/4 the size. I really like the Millrite for it's size and capability, but they aren't all that common. There is a Clausing 8520 also about the same size that's a popular hobby machine. I think Grizzly has a few modern offerings that are similar as well. |
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Originally Posted By Boostinjdm: ITT you're talking about toys. Not tools. I'd say its a fine line. The same way that the $1.99 crap in the harbor freight checkout aisle is a tool and can actually be useful. Its not the quality of tool you'd use every day or if you depended on it to make a living. But it is a tool that can do stuff. I was able to make things on my HF mini mill that I still use years later. The items that come off of it are way more durable than anything you can 3D print. A small hammer with a balsa-wood handle is still a hammer. 
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Originally Posted By giantpune: I'd say its a fine line. The same way that the $1.99 crap in the harbor freight checkout aisle is a tool and can actually be useful. Its not the quality of tool you'd use every day or if you depended on it to make a living. But it is a tool that can do stuff. I was able to make things on my HF mini mill that I still use years later. The items that come off of it are way more durable than anything you can 3D print. A small hammer with a balsa-wood handle is still a hammer. And I can do the same work as your HF mini mill using a hacksaw, a brace, and a file, but I like to accomplish things and there is a reasonable lower limit to what machines should be considered. We aren't talking about $1.99 here. We're talking several hundred to a few thousand dollars to get your foot in the door. Then you have to get tooling. IF working with plastics, wood, or composites, you can get away with a lot more than trying to cut metal. OP got a decent sized hobby lathe. The mill should be sized to match it's capabilities so projects can be completed in a timely fashion without too much trouble. For example, my Jet 13x40 lathe pairs well with my Jet 9x19 mill. My Enco 12x36 lathe pairs well with my Millrite. We won't talk about my Milltronics VM16 or 36" radial drill. They are overkill for a hobby shop, but price was right and I wanted them. |
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Originally Posted By Boostinjdm: And I can do the same work as your HF mini mill using a hacksaw, a brace, and a file, but I like to accomplish things and there is a reasonable lower limit to what machines should be considered. We aren't talking about $1.99 here. We're talking several hundred to a few thousand dollars to get your foot in the door. Then you have to get tooling. IF working with plastics, wood, or composites, you can get away with a lot more than trying to cut metal. OP got a decent sized hobby lathe. The mill should be sized to match it's capabilities so projects can be completed in a timely fashion without too much trouble. For example, my Jet 13x40 lathe pairs well with my Jet 9x19 mill. My Enco 12x36 lathe pairs well with my Millrite. We won't talk about my Milltronics VM16 or 36" radial drill. They are overkill for a hobby shop, but price was right and I wanted them. No, I don't think you actually can accomplish anything close to what a cheap mini mill will do with a hacksaw and a file. As shitty as it is, its still a real tool. It doesn't matter than you were able to find a better one. It doesn't make the little turd any less capable. Dare I say it, I own a bigger mill and a lathe than any of the ones you mentioned. And I still will give the little mini mills credit for what they can do. |
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Originally Posted By Boostinjdm: ... OP got a decent sized hobby lathe. The mill should be sized to match it's capabilities so projects can be completed in a timely fashion without too much trouble. ... My options are: 1- spend a smallish amount of money, acquire some capability and do some learning and get something done starting soon. 2- have no capability and do no learning and do nothing for a year or more while I work on getting the cash & space & ability to move a mill that doesn't garner comments about it being found under a tree with a bow, next to a Red Ryder. I don't doubt that there's truth in in your words. The disconnect is between the questions being asked and the questions being answered. It's less a "What Should I" and more a "What Can I". |
Disclaimer - OP is bad at knowing things, and might catch on fire.
Vet - Op MMAMA
Every other species kills off their stupid......we cater to them. -- spin-drift
Nobody ever called 911&said I just did something smart. -- TheFlynDutchman
Vet - Op MMAMA
Every other species kills off their stupid......we cater to them. -- spin-drift
Nobody ever called 911&said I just did something smart. -- TheFlynDutchman
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IF your goal is just to do something, go ahead and buy the cheapest shit you can find. Is that the answer you're looking for? I'm trying to help you skip the re-buying step. I don't consider any of my machines expensive as far as machining equipment goes. Sure, would have been hard to justify at retail (and I never would have gotten them), but I didn't buy any of them new and some were much cheaper than you might think. One of my hobbies is fixing equipment to learn and improve my skills. So I have bought a lot of things others would consider junk, and then fixed them up. I'm trying to suggest sizes and types of machines that you will get good use out of fixing/making stuff as a hobbiest, homeowner, small farmer, mechanic, etc. As that is the type of work I have been doing. Now if you're into turning pens and making watch parts, that's a whole different deal and I will be of no help there at all. Same goes for huge mining equipment. Different class of machines are needed. Tooling costs as much or more than the machine a lot of times and is an ongoing expense. If you pick a small machine that uses oddball tooling. All of that will have to be replaced as well when you upgrade. |
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I'll admit to being stubborn and maybe a bit dense, but I'm not completely un-trainable. I started thinking about a lathe something over a year ago. My first questions were about 7-8" throw Amazon/Vevor benchtops. It took a minute, but I slowly moved to where I was looking at a Heavy 10, with a fallback position of a new PM-1030. Eventually, I wound up at the right place & time to get the 12x36 I'm setting up in the garage. That path has me accepting that I'll eventually own a mill of useful size. Predicting the future is dicey, but I'm pretty sure buying a decent mill is a When thing, not an If. The hitch in this gittyup is being dead in the water till available cash meets a Goldlocks zone mill I can get into my garage. I have a few 80% lowers I'd like to complete, so I'm already looking at a $500 spend for a jig, tooling set and router. If that money can get me something more useful than a one trick pony jig set, something I can use till I am able to get a better tool, I'm willing to entertain the idea. I haven't done a full inventory yet, but I know there's at least one facemill in the bucket-o-parts I got with the lathe. I'll admit it's a guess, but I heavily suspect any milling bits I get that are appropriately sized for a 2hp lathe will also be usable in a proper hobby grade mill. If I'm wrong in this, please let me know. I openly admit I know just enough to be really stupid right now. Circling back to a previous topic, what would you consider a balanced compliment to my G4003g? The ones I keep seeing are the Grizzly G0704 and Precision Mathews 25mv/30mv. Square post, usable power and table workbox, small enough I can get them through my garage door on an engine hoist. Am I shooting too high or too low? Those are already at a point where I can't even think of ordering a new one for quite a while, and seem to not exist as used and at a decent price on CL/FBmp. |
Disclaimer - OP is bad at knowing things, and might catch on fire.
Vet - Op MMAMA
Every other species kills off their stupid......we cater to them. -- spin-drift
Nobody ever called 911&said I just did something smart. -- TheFlynDutchman
Vet - Op MMAMA
Every other species kills off their stupid......we cater to them. -- spin-drift
Nobody ever called 911&said I just did something smart. -- TheFlynDutchman
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To start, I'd backburner the 80%'ers and add the $500 to the machine budget. Good, fast, or cheap. Don't get hung up on the fast route as that's almost always the most expensive. Either paying for it up front, or paying for screwups. If you have a good mill. You won't need a jig or router. Just the appropriate end mills, drills, and reamers, which can be used for other jobs too. A DRO would be extremely helpful, but you can read dials and use indicators too. |
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If you look long enough, you will find the right machine for a reasonable price. Learn about the machine construction, old ones, as well as new ones so you can quickly decide to pass or buy when you see one. Stack some cash, double what you'd like to spend just in case you stumble onto something. You may go looking for a machine and find tons of tooling for a little more money. I did that. Ended up making multiple trips a couple hundred miles and spending $1000s, but it was well worth it. Random reference to costs involved.... I bought my Millrite from a sealed bid school auction. I think I gave $400. It was rough. Rough. I put a couple hundred into tearing it down and fixing everything as I put it back together. Some of that involved machining, a lot was just elbow grease. Then I spent a couple hundred on a vise and $1000 on a DRO. So all in, probably $2k cash and lots of labor. I now have a machine that is as good, and in some respects better than when it was new. It shares tooling with my Jet as they are both R8 spindles. The Millrite is 120v. The Jet is 240 3ph. My little Enco 12x36 was a freak find, I was buying something else and bs'ing with the guy. I don't remember whether I gave $100 or $200, but it was no more than that. It had fallen off a trailer backwards and destroyed the DRO and electrical controls cabinet. I could see that it was mechanically good besides a few broken handles. I expect to put maybe $200-300 into electrical to get it going again. After confirming it's all good, I'll order another $1000 DRO. The Enco 12x36 will share chucks and tooling with my Jet 13x40. See how that works? The Enco is 120/240. The Jet is 240 3ph. My Jet mill and lathe were about $5k ($10-12K new) each and needed some maintenance badly, but were otherwise pretty good shape. I have spent several thousand on tooling for each. |
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Originally Posted By Boostinjdm: ... A DRO would be extremely helpful, but you can read dials and use indicators too. Don't worry - I'm not backsliding or jumping on anything I can fit in my trunk. :-) If anything, I've jumped the other direction. I should preface this with what I've been thinking - - Much like the lathe I stumbled on, my real target (a CNC converted G0704/PM-25/30) is a unicorn. Not just in rarity on the local CL or FBmp, but in features. Big enough to be worth buying, small enough to be able to move it and get it in my garage, low enough price to be considered. I don't move in machinist circles, and in an IT/Infosec remote role, I don't even get to rub elbows with industrial/facilities types anymore. If I'm being brutally honest, running into what I want inside a year or two is unlikely. That leaves new... (See the end of this post for the root of my trust issues on used gear) It's a slippery slope, and trying to balance paying for a DRO now (so I can really use it - my eyes suck) or have a half-useful mill till I can scrape up another $2500-$4000 for a CNC conversion.. Are there any places I should look besides Procut (expensive!) and Arizona cnc kits (can't even tell what they do and don't offer for stepper kits or electronics) That slippery slope is not helped by a recent discovery - Precision Matthews is in spitting distance of my Dad, and I need to go see him in a month or so. In person pickup would shave about $250 off their pricing compared to Grizzly, and hopefully my Suburban will be road worthy by then so I can drive up and schlep it home. Know anybody who likes guns? I might need to sell a few.... I started charting out features on some mid-line new equipment. Looking at them like this helped me notice the differences and compare option prices. I'd love to have ProCut send me a CNC PM-30, but I've gotta be honest, its seriously expensive. Practical Me sees the G0704 and PM-25 as economical targets. Minimum acceptable work volume, low price, and apparently common CNC conversion targets. Add $1k for the 759 and get DRO and a stand.. but at that point a PM-25 & DRO is $170 cheaper. and $400 more gets a PM-30 with DRO... Attached File No, I didn't even consider this... but it does speak to my trust issues with older used gear, particularly as an inexperienced buyer... Attached File |
Disclaimer - OP is bad at knowing things, and might catch on fire.
Vet - Op MMAMA
Every other species kills off their stupid......we cater to them. -- spin-drift
Nobody ever called 911&said I just did something smart. -- TheFlynDutchman
Vet - Op MMAMA
Every other species kills off their stupid......we cater to them. -- spin-drift
Nobody ever called 911&said I just did something smart. -- TheFlynDutchman
| My buddy has that exact same mill. I've used it to pin FSB's and clearance AR10 uppers for the bolt catch. It works. It's like milling with a dremel. There's virtually no torque but it'll get the job done if you like taking small cuts and being nervous the entire time. |
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Originally Posted By jos51700: My buddy has that exact same mill. I've used it to pin FSB's and clearance AR10 uppers for the bolt catch. It works. It's like milling with a dremel. There's virtually no torque but it'll get the job done if you like taking small cuts and being nervous the entire time. There it is. |
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If what really interests you is the automation side and not so much the projects, small CNC routers are pretty cheap. They don't really do metal though and have tiny work envelopes. That box of cutters is typical of a dumpster dive or auction. People think they found gold, but any nicks on the cutting edges make them scrap. When all that was new, you'd be looking at thousands of dollars worth of cutters. The best thing you can do when shopping used is to have a pile of money ready. Next would be a plan to move stuff. Knee mills can be moved by hand if you're prepared. Many have had the heads lifted off to make them more manageable. Many have been moved around with pipes and pry bars. A bridgeport style/size machine is about 2k pounds. Give or take a little depending on model and options. Getting one in/out of a pickup bed would be tough, but a drop bed, tilting trailer, or ramps can be done. |
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I've seen boxes of bad cutters that looked NIB compared to that ad. It's sooo bad it's funny. It does capture the core issue I have with used gear though. I don't have the base knowledge, experience, space or capability to snag a nice fixer-upper. Whatever I get, I need to be reasonably sure it works. I'd like to assume problems while learning are operator error. This is why my fallback position on a lathe became a new PM 1030. Somewhat expensive and not as beefy as second hand options, but a solid minimum spec, and most importantly, a known quantity. Without a specific (ongoing) job to align Want and Need around, my decision making logic tree is a bit of a mess. I want CNC, but the affordable ones are toys. I want something capable of taking reasonable bites of 6061 (edit - or 7075?) and the occasional smallish chunk of Stainless, but the good examples are huge. I want to have already eaten my cake. I want to still have my cake. I want my cake to be on sale. I still want my cake to be tasty. Some days I envy people who don't have to live in my head. BUT... instead of angsty whining, I'll try to have more practical questions.
Originally Posted By Boostinjdm: ...The best thing you can do when shopping used is to have a pile of money ready. ... |
Disclaimer - OP is bad at knowing things, and might catch on fire.
Vet - Op MMAMA
Every other species kills off their stupid......we cater to them. -- spin-drift
Nobody ever called 911&said I just did something smart. -- TheFlynDutchman
Vet - Op MMAMA
Every other species kills off their stupid......we cater to them. -- spin-drift
Nobody ever called 911&said I just did something smart. -- TheFlynDutchman
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"In my use case, is the jump from 1hp to 2hp a seriously good thing or just icing on the cake?" More hp is generally better. I don't think there is really a downside other than needing more input power, but I think you can squeeze 1.75-2hp out of a 120v 20a circuit if you have to. You have 240v available. So I'd go for 2hp if you can. My Jet mill (bridgeport clone) is 2 speed, 2hp, 240v 3ph. It's always had plenty of power. My Millrite is 3/4hp, 120v, 1ph. While I can definitely tell the difference, I have not found it lacking. Both are R8 spindles. So a share the same tooling. Here's the caveat. They are step pulley machines. So I can use the motor to it's potential and get in the right rpm ballpark by moving the belt to a different step. I like step pulleys. Nice and simple and I have found 2 steps that cover 90% of my drilling and machining. I don't like variable heads. Meaning moving sheaves. When they work, they are great, but they wear out and a large portion of used machines are going to have worn or junk variable heads. If going variable DC, get all the hp you can. If is also has a few steps, that's helpful. My big VM16 CNC has a variable frequency drive and even it has 2 or three steps so the motor can be in a useable rpm range. |
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I don't really want to comment on resale much as prices are all over the map and I generally lean towards older (10-50 yrs old) machines. I'd kinda expect a new machine to lose 25% or more pretty quick and then stay there for a while if you take care of it. You're talking about an expensive enough machine that too close to new price and people will just buy new instead of taking the risk. No idea on CNC conversion. I only briefly looked into it and decided it was better just to buy something built from the ground up as a CNC. That was about the same time as I stumbled onto the VM16. My "having a pile of money ready" comment was basically because that puts you above most of the guys you will be competing against that kick the tires or try to negotiate and then come up with the money. Cash talks, bullshit walks, is real. That said, I didn't have the money when I bought my Jet mill and lathe. I did make a phone call though and had somebody willing to loan it to me (approved for more than the asking price) before I contacted the seller. Arranged a meet to check out the equipment for the next day. Picked up cash at the bank on the way. Had the equipment home that night. I had to make 2 trips, but it was only a 25 mile drive. |
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I don't know if it's been mentioned yet, but just say no to round columns. Get the beefiest dovetail column you can. Also, get the most z travel/clearance you can. A vise, index, rotary table, fixture, etc. eats up the z quick. As does a drill chuck and drill bit. |
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Originally Posted By Boostinjdm: "In my use case, is the jump from 1hp to 2hp a seriously good thing or just icing on the cake?" More hp is generally better. ... Here's the caveat. They are step pulley machines. So I can use the motor to it's potential ... I don't like variable heads. Meaning moving sheaves. When they work, they are great, but they wear out and a large portion of used machines are going to have worn or junk variable heads. If going variable DC, get all the hp you can. If is also has a few steps, that's helpful. My big VM16 CNC has a variable frequency drive and even it has 2 or three steps so the motor can be in a useable rpm range. ... I don't really want to comment on resale much as prices are all over the map and I generally lean towards older (10-50 yrs old) machines. I'd kinda expect a new machine to lose 25% or more pretty quick and then stay there for a while if you take care of it. You're talking about an expensive enough machine that too close to new price and people will just buy new instead of taking the risk. No idea on CNC conversion. I only briefly looked into it and decided it was better just to buy something built from the ground up as a CNC. That was about the same time as I stumbled onto the VM16. My "having a pile of money ready" comment was basically because that puts you above most of the guys you will be competing against that kick the tires or try to negotiate and then come up with the money. Cash talks, bullshit walks, is real.... resale.. yeah... I'm going to guess most resale of the lower end gear I'm looking at will be inside enthusiast forums. So far, between FBmp and CL, I've found ONE decent option in the past month - a third hand PM-25 for 75% of new. The extras might have made the sale, but a 5 hour drive each way made it Somewhat Unattractive. I've found a few sites I'll be registering on to prowl For Sale. If nothing else, I might find real world used price examples. I understand your comments about a native CNC design being more attractive. These mid-level hobby units tend to have a foot of motor sticking off each former handwheel location. From what I've seen, to get this, you have to go smaller (ghost gunner, Carbide nomad) or big enough for the mill to claim its own garage bay. |
Disclaimer - OP is bad at knowing things, and might catch on fire.
Vet - Op MMAMA
Every other species kills off their stupid......we cater to them. -- spin-drift
Nobody ever called 911&said I just did something smart. -- TheFlynDutchman
Vet - Op MMAMA
Every other species kills off their stupid......we cater to them. -- spin-drift
Nobody ever called 911&said I just did something smart. -- TheFlynDutchman
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When I was looking at CNC conversions, I was trying to compare apples to apples. So a fairly new manual machine plus conversion vs the same machine coming out of the factory as CNC. The factory machine won every time. End price ended up being similar, but there was a whole lot of work and risk of getting something wrong in the conversion. Also, to do a proper conversion, you almost have to have other machining capabilities for making/modding brackets and things. That's fine if working on your second or third mill when you have a backup machine in working order. Not good if it's your first machine. I don't have a problem with DC drives in general. I have a problem with the DC drives on these smaller desktop machines. They are usually underpowered. Double or triple the motor size and they would be fine. |
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Originally Posted By Boostinjdm: I don't know if it's been mentioned yet, but just say no to round columns. Get the beefiest dovetail column you can. Also, get the most z travel/clearance you can. A vise, index, rotary table, fixture, etc. eats up the z quick. As does a drill chuck and drill bit. Sad news - it turns out the hatch on my Suburban is only about 34-ish inches tall. I /might/ be able to fit a palletized PM-25 in, but it's a crapshoot. The 49" tall PM-30 crate is a complete no-go. This is where Feature Creep kicks in - $600 to jump to the PM-30 and get 220v 2hp and 4 more inches of max Z space... or $270 more for a G0759 to give up DC variable, brushless and belt for a DRO and stand. I hate to admit it, but that trade sounds somewhat fair. O Is there any pro/con for the 'get it cheaper now & add DRO (or CNC) later' and 'get DRO factory installed for $750'? ... and there I go again, looking at incremental cost to go from pm25DRO to pm30DRO... ... and double crap - flying up to see my Dad would cost me about $300 less than driving the beast up, totally negating any local pickup savings. That puts me back to a: $2451 HD G0704, $2742 PM25, (+$291 vs 0704) $3428 PM30, (+$977 vs 0704, +$855 vs pm25) $3484 PM25dro, or (+ $1033 vs 0704, +$941 vs pm25) $3948 PM30dro (+$1497 vs 0704, +$1405 vs pm25) I guess the two real questions are: - Will I find a decent machine on the enthusiast boards before I save up somewhere between $2500 and $4k? - Will I find enough guns to sell that buying new will not sting too badly? (Not-Edit) - dang - only $520 to add the factory DRO to a PM30... |
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Vet - Op MMAMA
Every other species kills off their stupid......we cater to them. -- spin-drift
Nobody ever called 911&said I just did something smart. -- TheFlynDutchman
Vet - Op MMAMA
Every other species kills off their stupid......we cater to them. -- spin-drift
Nobody ever called 911&said I just did something smart. -- TheFlynDutchman
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Originally Posted By Boostinjdm: When I was looking at CNC conversions, I was trying to compare apples to apples. So a fairly new manual machine plus conversion vs the same machine coming out of the factory as CNC. The factory machine won every time. End price ended up being similar, but there was a whole lot of work and risk of getting something wrong in the conversion. Also, to do a proper conversion, you almost have to have other machining capabilities for making/modding brackets and things. That's fine if working on your second or third mill when you have a backup machine in working order. Not good if it's your first machine. I don't have a problem with DC drives in general. I have a problem with the DC drives on these smaller desktop machines. They are usually underpowered. Double or triple the motor size and they would be fine. |
Disclaimer - OP is bad at knowing things, and might catch on fire.
Vet - Op MMAMA
Every other species kills off their stupid......we cater to them. -- spin-drift
Nobody ever called 911&said I just did something smart. -- TheFlynDutchman
Vet - Op MMAMA
Every other species kills off their stupid......we cater to them. -- spin-drift
Nobody ever called 911&said I just did something smart. -- TheFlynDutchman
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I'll take a closer look at the machines you listed a little later. I rule out round columns for a few reasons. I don't care what other features the machines have. Round columns flex. If you run out of spindle travel and have to raise the head, you lose your x/y position. No add on I've seen 100% prevents that. Third, clamping the round column just isn't secure enough and you can knock it out of alignment. None of those are an issue with a knee mill or dovetail column. I mentioned earlier to get as much Z as possible. I just went and measured where my Millrite is set at right now because I used it the other day to drill some holes. I have a 4" vise with swivel base on it, a keyless chuck, and a 1/2" drill bit. The bit only clears the vise jaws by about 1/2". The distance from the table to the spindle nose is 13". That's a pretty common height for me. Sometimes I need to drop the table to handle larger pieces, but when milling or facing, I'll raise it up to about 8" from table to spindle nose. I use collets to hold my end mills and my face mills have integrated R8 shanks to reduce stick out. |
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Looks like the Grizzly 0704 is pretty much equivalent to the pm25. For the price difference, I think it's worth the step up to the pm30 for the extra travel. Almost forgot...power feed on the long axis is a life saver. I used it constantly on my Jet. I miss it a lot when running my Millrite. Not sure on if the $700-750 for factory installed DRO is worth it. I guess I'd have to look into the DRO they used closer. You already get spindle DRO as standard equipment. So drilling and milling to depth is somewhat covered. I only have two axis DROs on my manual mills. I use dials for drilling and raising the knee. Check out DRO Pros for a ballpark of what doing your own DRO would cost. They have a range from cheap to expensive and excellent customer support when I dealt with them. I bought the DRO for my 13x40 lathe and my Millrite from them a few years apart. I'll order from them again for my 12x36 when I'm ready. I went with the magnetic scales so they would be more durable and I could cut them to exactly the right length for my machines. No complaints there. I went with the EL400 displays on both so I got the quick zero and machine specific buttons. https://www.dropros.com/ Edit. Looks like they ONLY have magnetic scales now. They used to have glass scale kits too. |
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Originally Posted By Boostinjdm: Why the 'burban? I thought you hauled the lathe home in a truck? Also, you can rent a small trailer cheap. Originally Posted By Boostinjdm: Why the 'burban? I thought you hauled the lathe home in a truck? Also, you can rent a small trailer cheap. The last owner of the suburban told me it got about 10mpg. (8.1L 3/4ton) It will be about 700 miles each direction to get to where my dad lives, so 1400 miles, 140 gallons, no less than $420-ish in gas. Upside, it's big enough to take a comfortable nap in. I'm looking at round trip flights for less than $200. $200-300 extra gas cost, loosing an extra day and a half to driving... Once I did the math it started looking worse and worse. Originally Posted By Boostinjdm: I'll take a closer look at the machines you listed a little later. ... I mentioned earlier to get as much Z as possible. I just went and measured where my Millrite is set at right now because I used it the other day to drill some holes. I have a 4" vise with swivel base on it, a keyless chuck, and a 1/2" drill bit. The bit only clears the vise jaws by about 1/2". The distance from the table to the spindle nose is 13".... Attached File Originally Posted By Boostinjdm: Looks like the Grizzly 0704 is pretty much equivalent to the pm25. For the price difference, I think it's worth the step up to the pm30 for the extra travel. Almost forgot...power feed on the long axis is a life saver. I used it constantly on my Jet. I miss it a lot when running my Millrite. Not sure on if the $700-750 for factory installed DRO is worth it. I guess I'd have to look into the DRO they used closer. You already get spindle DRO as standard equipment. So drilling and milling to depth is somewhat covered. I only have two axis DROs on my manual mills. I use dials for drilling and raising the knee. Check out DRO Pros for a ballpark of what doing your own DRO would cost. They have a range from cheap to expensive and excellent customer support when I dealt with them. I bought the DRO for my 13x40 lathe and my Millrite from them a few years apart. I'll order from them again for my 12x36 when I'm ready. I went with the magnetic scales so they would be more durable and I could cut them to exactly the right length for my machines. No complaints there. I went with the EL400 displays on both so I got the quick zero and machine specific buttons. https://' exwww.dropros.com/ Edit. Looks like they ONLY have magnetic scales now. They used to have glass scale kits too. PM just calls their DRO "LCD Mill DRO" - PDF from their site Depending on how fancy a display, the DRO Pros site shows $1255-$1785 for a 12x30x16 kit, which looks like it covers the movement limits of anything I'd be looking at. Unless it's seriously lacking in some important way, adding a factory DRO to a pm30 for |
Disclaimer - OP is bad at knowing things, and might catch on fire.
Vet - Op MMAMA
Every other species kills off their stupid......we cater to them. -- spin-drift
Nobody ever called 911&said I just did something smart. -- TheFlynDutchman
Vet - Op MMAMA
Every other species kills off their stupid......we cater to them. -- spin-drift
Nobody ever called 911&said I just did something smart. -- TheFlynDutchman
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Damn you! I got curious and started searching mills in my area to get a feel for the market as I'd kinda like to sell my Jet since I don't have the power to run it anymore and even if I did it would be redundant with the Millrite and VM16 working. Anyways, stumbled across a Clausing 4520 in real good shape, but that isn't what caught my eye. He also had a small lathe that was broken and he'd "include in the deal". So now we're in negotiations on the lathe. It's smaller than I'd like, and I don't need another, but I kinda do to fix the crossfeed shaft on my 12x26 so I can get it up and going. The power feed is definitely a luxury, but real wrist saver cutting keyways, truing edges, and facing stuff. Most of the time it will produce a nicer (more consistent) finish than hand cranking. Nice for rapid transits and dialing in an edge with an indicator too. When I was machining the Millrite ways in my Jet, I must have run the indicator across each surface a couple dozen times and the ways were about 12-16" long. That'd be a lot of hand cranking and I ain't Popeye. |
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Originally Posted By Boostinjdm: Damn you! I got curious ... Anyways, stumbled across a Clausing 4520 ... also had a small lathe that was broken and he'd "include in the deal". So now we're in negotiations on the lathe. It's smaller than I'd like, and I don't need another, but I kinda do to fix the crossfeed shaft on my 12x26 so I can get it up and going. Originally Posted By Boostinjdm: Damn you! I got curious ... Anyways, stumbled across a Clausing 4520 ... also had a small lathe that was broken and he'd "include in the deal". So now we're in negotiations on the lathe. It's smaller than I'd like, and I don't need another, but I kinda do to fix the crossfeed shaft on my 12x26 so I can get it up and going.  I'm not even going to suggest that what you need is really a 4'th axis rotary and CNC upgrade to one of your mills.... ;-) The power feed is definitely a luxury, but real wrist saver cutting keyways, truing edges, and facing stuff. Most of the time it will produce a nicer (more consistent) finish than hand cranking. Nice for rapid transits and dialing in an edge with an indicator too. When I was machining the Millrite ways in my Jet, I must have run the indicator across each surface a couple dozen times and the ways were about 12-16" long. That'd be a lot of hand cranking and I ain't Popeye.  |
Disclaimer - OP is bad at knowing things, and might catch on fire.
Vet - Op MMAMA
Every other species kills off their stupid......we cater to them. -- spin-drift
Nobody ever called 911&said I just did something smart. -- TheFlynDutchman
Vet - Op MMAMA
Every other species kills off their stupid......we cater to them. -- spin-drift
Nobody ever called 911&said I just did something smart. -- TheFlynDutchman
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Originally Posted By Amish_Bill: I'm not even going to suggest that what you need is really a 4'th axis rotary and CNC upgrade to one of your mills.... ;-) I already have a manual rotary table (8" with chuck) I bought new and 2 matching indexers (10 or 12" I think, one of the big old names) I need to get cleaned up. I planned to put them opposite each other in the VM16 since I have the space. Maybe build a yoke to go between. No CNC control for that and I really don't have the need anyway. |
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Originally Posted By Boostinjdm: ...Maybe build a yoke to go between. No CNC control for that and I really don't have the need anyway. |
Disclaimer - OP is bad at knowing things, and might catch on fire.
Vet - Op MMAMA
Every other species kills off their stupid......we cater to them. -- spin-drift
Nobody ever called 911&said I just did something smart. -- TheFlynDutchman
Vet - Op MMAMA
Every other species kills off their stupid......we cater to them. -- spin-drift
Nobody ever called 911&said I just did something smart. -- TheFlynDutchman
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That was a good video - though it would be hard to think otherwise, the way he reinforces all the biases I've built in my head. It has a reasonable Z height and x/y range - About the only heads I may ever deck would come off a lawnmower, I'm a GO at that station. It has heavier castings than the G0704 and PM-25 It has a reasonably solid column A quieter belt drive is always a plus. 2hp makes me smile a lot more than 1 or 1.2 does It seems to hit the Goldilocks zone size & weight wise It might be more expensive than a used knee mill, but I'll also be able to go collect one myself and move it around as needed. I'm not going to have anything cross compatible, at least at first. These have an R8, and my lathe has MT-5 and MT-3. I'm not sure what kind of cross-compatible adapters are available, or that I might possibly have a use for. That's a tomorrow problem though. Dam - it's already tomorrow - I've gotta get some sleep. Today will come way too soon! |
Disclaimer - OP is bad at knowing things, and might catch on fire.
Vet - Op MMAMA
Every other species kills off their stupid......we cater to them. -- spin-drift
Nobody ever called 911&said I just did something smart. -- TheFlynDutchman
Vet - Op MMAMA
Every other species kills off their stupid......we cater to them. -- spin-drift
Nobody ever called 911&said I just did something smart. -- TheFlynDutchman
| R8 is fine up to Bridgeport size. Very common and relatively cheap because of that. Maybe the most common. Larger mills get BT30/40 or CAT30/40 spindles IIRC. MT spindles are not desirable or common in mills. Drill presses yes, mills no. Mills need a draw bar to help retain the tool. MT shanks usually have a tang and no threaded hole. |
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Z can get used up pretty quick. Like when using a rotary table standing up (so part is rotating around a horizontal axis) and trying to drill holes. Maybe for a custom handguard or something. My 8" rotary is 6" to the center in that orientation. Plus half the diameter of the part you're working on. My keyless chuck with a 1/2" drill bit is 6-8" from spindle nose to bit tip depending on if you're using a standard or jobber length bit. Laying the rotary on its back, it's 8" from table to top of jaws (I have a four jaw on it most of the time). So you can eat up 14-16" of Z without even including the part you're working on. These aren't uncommon setups. Yes, there are some work arounds, but that just complicates things. Boring heads are another Z eater. The boring heads can be pretty long by themselves, then add total part height for clearance and at least twice the hole depth. A 4" hole takes a minimum of 8" of Z without part height or boring head length. |
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Originally Posted By Boostinjdm: Z can get used up pretty quick. Like when using a rotary table standing up (so part is rotating around a horizontal axis) and trying to drill holes. Maybe for a custom handguard or something. My 8" rotary is 6" to the center in that orientation. Plus half the diameter of the part you're working on. My keyless chuck with a 1/2" drill bit is 6-8" from spindle nose to bit tip depending on if you're using a standard or jobber length bit. Laying the rotary on its back, it's 8" from table to top of jaws (I have a four jaw on it most of the time). So you can eat up 14-16" of Z without even including the part you're working on. These aren't uncommon setups. Yes, there are some work arounds, but that just complicates things. Boring heads are another Z eater. The boring heads can be pretty long by themselves, then add total part height for clearance and at least twice the hole depth. A 4" hole takes a minimum of 8" of Z without part height or boring head length. I've always put a riser on mills set up with a rotary table for that exact reason. If you aren't familiar, it raises the entire turret up off the base. |
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Originally Posted By TinSpinner: I've always put a riser on mills set up with a rotary table for that exact reason. If you aren't familiar, it raises the entire turret up off the base. Originally Posted By Boostinjdm: Yep, pretty common on Bridgeport style mills. I don't remember seeing it done on the smaller square column desktops... I'm going to look at it this way - being in a situation where I will need more Z is unlikely, but if it does come around, flattening some steel plate or bar and putting through holes for longer mount bolts should not be too daunting a task. I think. I hope I'm not making excessive promises of skill that Future AB will have to deal with. |
Disclaimer - OP is bad at knowing things, and might catch on fire.
Vet - Op MMAMA
Every other species kills off their stupid......we cater to them. -- spin-drift
Nobody ever called 911&said I just did something smart. -- TheFlynDutchman
Vet - Op MMAMA
Every other species kills off their stupid......we cater to them. -- spin-drift
Nobody ever called 911&said I just did something smart. -- TheFlynDutchman
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You may want to confirm that there's no installation charge for the DRO on the PM-30 as it's $400 extra on the PM-833TV. I bought 2 of these DRO's from the Precision Matthews (Quality Machine Tools) store on eBay and they're honestly a steal at even $500 (it was $425 when I bought mine last year). It has an actual graphical display for the head unit which I wanted, however, I didn't want to spend $1200 on the DRO kit with the magnetic scales. I got one for my mill and lathe to install hopefully next month. The mill will be done first. https://www.ebay.com/itm/235756146397 Fire it up and test it if you aren't going to install it right away to make sure everything is kosher. I had an odd issue with one row of buttons but PM replaced it without any drama. As far as size choose the size you think you need and go one size bigger would be my advice. I was dead set on a PM-728VT, however, I wound up getting the PM-833TV and skipping the DRO for awhile as you can always add that stuff but you can't make the machine bigger. Also, as mentioned above the X-axis power feed is an arm saver. Think of it like this....without the power feed in order to move the table 10" you have to turn the handle 100 revolutions. It took me doing that once to say "screw that" at which point I ordered the Align X-Axis power feed. I'm not going to get one for the Z-Axis though as I don't think I'll use it enough to make it worthwhile. Here's mine as it sits. I'll hopefully get the DRO installed next month when the cats are out of the shop as winter is finally winding down here. I only plan on doing the X and Y though as the Quill DRO is enough for me on the Z axis. The lathe will be awhile but the DRO's were too cheap to pass up. ETA: Prepare to spend a lot of money on the extra tooling you'll need/want. I thought that people were full of $hit when they said you'll spend as much on the tooling as you did on the machine but they weren't far off 
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Originally Posted By Firestarter123: You may want to confirm that there's no installation charge for the DRO on the PM-30 as it's $400 extra on the PM-833TV. Originally Posted By Firestarter123: You may want to confirm that there's no installation charge for the DRO on the PM-30 as it's $400 extra on the PM-833TV. I bought 2 of these DRO's from the Precision Matthews (Quality Machine Tools) store on eBay and they're honestly a steal at even $500 (it was $425 when I bought mine last year). It has an actual graphical display for the head unit which I wanted, however, I didn't want to spend $1200 on the DRO kit with the magnetic scales. ...As far as size choose the size you think you need and go one size bigger would be my advice. I was dead set on a PM-728VT, however, I wound up getting the PM-833TV and skipping the DRO for awhile as you can always add that stuff but you can't make the machine bigger. Also, as mentioned above the X-axis power feed is an arm saver. Think of it like this....without the power feed in order to move the table 10" you have to turn the handle 100 revolutions. It took me doing that once to say "screw that" at which point I ordered the Align X-Axis power feed. I'm not going to get one for the Z-Axis though as I don't think I'll use it enough to make it worthwhile. Now I have more questions... nicer DRO and glass scales, more basic DRO with magnetic scales for $200 more(preinstalled), add X Feed... Argh - so many competing priorities with no practical experience of my own. |
Disclaimer - OP is bad at knowing things, and might catch on fire.
Vet - Op MMAMA
Every other species kills off their stupid......we cater to them. -- spin-drift
Nobody ever called 911&said I just did something smart. -- TheFlynDutchman
Vet - Op MMAMA
Every other species kills off their stupid......we cater to them. -- spin-drift
Nobody ever called 911&said I just did something smart. -- TheFlynDutchman
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Not all magnetic scales are created equal. There are cheesy tape ones and solid bar ones. I got the solid bars. Glass scales work fine, but can get dirty or broken. My jet mill came with glass scales and an accurite dro. It's been fine. I wouldn't get too concerned about advanced dro features. Ive used the bolt hole function a few times. Other than that, quick zero, quick position entry, and finding center or the 1/2 function. |
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Originally Posted By Boostinjdm: Not all magnetic scales are created equal. There are cheesy tape ones and solid bar ones. I got the solid bars. Glass scales work fine, but can get dirty or broken. My jet mill came with glass scales and an accurite dro. It's been fine. I wouldn't get too concerned about advanced dro features. Ive used the bolt hole function a few times. Other than that, quick zero, quick position entry, and finding center or the 1/2 function. All magnetic scales use a magnetic tape which is why you can cut them to length. They’re easier Touch DRO guy goes over it pretty thoroughly. https://www.touchdro.com/resources/getting-started/recommended-dro-scales.html They have more errors in general than glass and aren’t as accurate overall but they’re more impervious to getting dirty/wet than glass. They’re easier to install though than glass. I am a visual guy so the images of what I’m doing made the glass scale kit the better deal for me. If I want magnetic scales someday I can replace them for less than the cost of the better display. |
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10+ years ago I added the cheap igaging magnetic DROs to my LMS 3900. Within a year or so, I upgraded to touchdown with a dedicated tablet. The only complaint I have is every once in a while it picks up some electronic noise and the scales go crazy. Really frustrating in the middle of a project. But it's only happened a handful of times in 10 years. The scales do get dirty. I've had to clean them 2 or 3 times. As others have said, the extra features mean far less than the display itself. I've used the bolt patter a few times, but always use the 1/2 and increment functions. .y Bridgeport came with DROs (Sony I think) and those glass scales are nicer for sure, but in the end, they are only more reliable. Other than the few glitches from the igaging, the Sony aren't any more usable. |
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Originally Posted By Firestarter123: ... They're easier Touch DRO guy goes over it pretty thoroughly. https://www.touchdro.com/resources/getting-started/recommended-dro-scales.html ... Another conversation brought up a good point. How long till PM has to restock and their prices start to reflect new chinese tarifs? |
Disclaimer - OP is bad at knowing things, and might catch on fire.
Vet - Op MMAMA
Every other species kills off their stupid......we cater to them. -- spin-drift
Nobody ever called 911&said I just did something smart. -- TheFlynDutchman
Vet - Op MMAMA
Every other species kills off their stupid......we cater to them. -- spin-drift
Nobody ever called 911&said I just did something smart. -- TheFlynDutchman