This review includes the peer-reviewed published research of roughly 45 scholars spanning about 30 years. Four of the studies were based on representative national samples in the United States. At least one involved a careful matched-pair design.[viii] Other studies control for various background variables while examining learner outcomes. The researchers live all over the United States and in other countries. Clearly, there is a breadth and depth of scholarly work and scholars investigating homeschooling.

What was uncovered in this peer-reviewed review of peer-reviewed research? In 11 of the 14 peer-reviewed studies (78%) on academic achievement, homeschool students performed significantly higher than institutional school students.

Out of 15 studies on social and emotional development, 13 of them (87%) showed clearly significant positive outcomes for the homeschooled students compared to those in conventional schools.

And 11 of the 16 studies (69%) on success into adulthood and college showed positive outcomes for the homeschooled compared to those in conventional schools.

Overall,  35 of the 45 peer-reviewed studies (78%) found that the homeschooled students or graduates of parent-led home-based education performed significantly better than their conventional or institutional school peers in terms of academic achievement, social and emotional development, and success into adulthood (including at college or university).

That is, 30 years of research by about 45 scholars in peer-reviewed journals has revealed significantly positive things related to homeschooling. There are very few pieces of empirical evidence from studies indicating that homeschool students or graduates of homeschooling are not doing as well as others; there is no body of research showing that they are being harmed at any higher rate than others. A helpful review of research for those who want to go deeper and that covers much more than only peer-reviewed publications is one that I published in a peer-reviewed journal, also in 2017.[ix]

Ray, B. (2017b). A systematic review of the empirical research on selected aspects of homeschooling as a school choice. Journal of School Choice: International Research and Reform, 11(4), 604–621. https://doi.org/10.1080/15582159.2017.1395638

Yeah but they are still socially awkward as fuck and weird.

Doesn’t surprise me.

Public school right?

Perhaps b/c they have not been socialized by communists?

Impressive, but not one reference to 87%?

This isn't GD, guy.  Knock it off.

In the context of home schooled kids, that is a common observation.  I think you'll need to disprove the commonly held disadvantage of home schooling w/ facts and figures rather than awkwardly denouncing it as a GD comment.

And how would one do that? The indoctrinated know-it-alls saw on TV that homeschooled kids are weird, so they must be. The same posters are never quite smart enough to realize they've met lots of well-adjusted homeschooled kids and never knew they were homeschooled.

Then there's this:
BuT tHe OnE i mEt wAS wEirD!

Stereotypes exist for a reason.   I have been able to pick out several adult co-workers that were home schooled.   Not saying they were tards or making a judgement on them as people other than they were just a little off.

Have no problem with home schooling.  But some of them do have a certain naive quality about them.

I don't know how you prove it, but if you've been homeschooled, you're smart enough to figger it out.  

It's certainly weird that homeschooled kids tend to do better in life than communist indoctrinated kids, and the perceived social awkwardness may be them wondering how to have a conversation with a useful idiot.

But you have to prove it - and show your work.

Hmmm. You've never met anyone who went to public school that was "a little off"? Or you're just sure that every single homeschooled person is off? I don't really follow your reasoning.

As far as I know, and I'm just playing the percentages here, pretty much every weirdo and creep I've met in my entire life is the product of the public school system.

It's actually the other way around - the party making the assertion has to show their work.

And I even went out of my way to point out that quoted line from the studies above, but you ignored it.

How many are teenage parents?  

How many are rioting and busting windows right now?

Awkward and weird as fuck describes most teenagers.

No, I clearly referenced it.

And the popular perception is that homeschooled kids are weird and awkward.  That's a sterotype homeschoolers need to overcome, which you don't when such comments are dismissed as a GD comment.

I have an interest in homeschooling, but I'm not convinced, and I have a particular concern about the social awkwardness issue.  You've done nothing to assuage those concerns.

The line I quoted was in reference to social and emotional development, not general success later in life. Is social and emotional development not a fair proxy for "weirdness"? What else are you looking for? A stronger case for you would be to reference a study showing that homeschooled kids are generally socially and emotionally stunted, but I haven't seen one of those studies quoted.

So I'm not following your logic or seeing whatever point you're trying to make. To sum it up, you reference a broad insult directed towards an entire group basis your and/or "popular" subjective opinion, then declare that the insulted groups needs to prove you wrong with studies and statistics. That's just not a reasonable expection on your part.

I'm not trying to assuage your concerns re: homeschooling anyway. Given the studies quoted in the OP, I'm only pointing out flawed reasoning as I see it. Did you go to a public school?

I went to a Christian private school, then a decent public school and public universities.

I'm rather pleased, b/c of a victory in state court, in Texas parents have the choice to homeschool w/o oversight from the state.  In certain districts that's a near necessity - I'm not convinced it is in ours.

Don't argue your case, if you like.  Gorilla boy was trying to shut down a valid point as if this was the Religion forum.

people can have that discussion about the alleged "total awkwardness of all homeschooled kids" all they please, without posting it in such contemptuous terms as he did.

Sure, and I did a mix of public schools, private schools, and homeschooling, then undergrad at a public university and masters at a private one. The homeschooling was for educational (or, not religious) reasons dependent on location - we moved a lot and sometimes my parents didn't find a school they thought was suitable.

My kid is at a public school now and I love her program - tested into a dual language program where the kids will stay together in a small group for years, and she's with other well-performing kids. I don't see us homeschooling her, but who knows. I'm pleased about Texas law too though - I'll take my chances that most parents can handle their own famy business without state intervention.

I guess I don't understand what you're getting at. I don't need to argue against your subjective opinion with studies and stats - that's what the whole OP does.

And this is the "valid point" you're referring to?



So basically you take an insulting, overly broad and subjective position, and then try to force the dissent into countering it with peer-reviewed studies. Which actually happen to be posted in the OP, in this case. Are you saying that the studies in the OP are wrong or invalid?

The wife wanted to add to this:

Our kids are/were homeschooled. Well one is now 21 so he works (well, will resume soon, thanks lockdown). The 12 year old has the hottest teacher.  Oldest qualified to graduate at 16.  Youngest has extra curricular art class outside the house but also has had to learn to handle social interaction with various multitudes of people through the years. Day to day interactions with neighbors, shopping, errands with mom. This has encouraged a depth and maturity level beyond 12. We prefer this method rather then led like cattle from one class to the next surrounded only by kids the same age.  Public school is a blessing to many who aren't able to homeschool. It isn't for everyone and was very different for each of our children. However both mine can carry on conversation and engage in all kinds of situations. We see this as far more then the normal socializing of public school which normally goes "You're not here to socialize you're here to learn." Mine can do both in tandem without getting detention for trying to chat with a friend.

No, I'm pointing out that's a valid response based on many common interactions with homeschooled kids, and it's not a valid technique to shout it down as if we were in the religion forum.

The point that all teenagers are awkward is valid as well.

If a child learns in a home environment versus a classroom environment, then they better be "off" compared to people who associate products of the classroom as the norm.

Because most people have been "normalized" in a classroom environment does not mean it's a healthy or adequate environment, just a different one that for several reasons gained prominence in the United States, despite being fundamentally antithetical to the foundational principles of the US.

For a long time, most home-educated children were athletes and actors who couldn't work a classroom schedule into their professions.  Their adaptivity and social skills were driven by a completely different experience than kids who were forced into conformity in a classroom.

We should expect something different from people that got an education at home.

That's the point.

In the face of drooling masses of illeterates spilling out of a classroom staffed by illiterates from the previous generation, I better see something "awkward" compared to that baseline or it's not working.

The worst thing you can do is expect them to be the same.

The first lesson you learn as a child being dropped off or bused to school is that the system is so powerful, that not even your parents can value you as an individual human being who is worth keeping around their home.  It's a system based on abandonment at as an early of an age as possible.

The next lesson you learn is how to adapt to this new social construct, where conformity and submission to unworthy authority is paramount, individual thought and curiosity is punished, and your natural will to be free must voluntarily be submitted and forgotten.

After 12-16 years of that, it's a miracle that we don't have even higher rates of chronic depression, anxiety, substance abuse, and suicide.

Yeah, I want my family and society to be as far from that as possible.

Home schooled kids are similar to a lot of mormons...

A little too wholesome or their jokes are strangely g-rated or mom friendly.

It isnt a bad thing but it is a thing.

"A little off " in public school is different than a "little off" result from home school.

It is just enough that it is possible to pick it out.  Not all the time but when you figure it out it is that "ahh ha" moment.

Similar to people with siblings can pick out people that are only childs.

Take insult if you want.  Don't care.

I am not arguing against home schooling in any way or that it is a negative.   Just that there is a stereotype.  Some homeschoolers that I have met are set up on a career path and generally find themselves much sooner in life.  But still a little off.

That's what I chalk it up to.

I dont disagree.

But the result is something interesting to see.

I have a buddy who is home schooling adopted kids.

He tells me about a birthday party that they went to.   There was a Pinata there.    It is filled with things the kids will like.

When it breaks open and all the kids dive in for the goodies.   His kids are the ones going for the boxes of raisins and healthy snacks instead of the candy that all the other kids go for.

His kids are so damn overly wholesome it is kinda weird.   I have known this guy since the 3rd grade and in 30+ years I have only heard him use profanity twice.   He is Ned Flanders.   He found is Maude.   Their first kiss was on their wedding day.

Their kids are always gonna be "different" regardless of being home schooled.

For those wondering about the scholarly nature of this analysis and publication of findings of 45 peer-reviewed studies, here are some of the standards the author mentions that they were subjected to:

In academic publishing, the goal of peer review is to assess the quality of articles submitted for publication in a scholarly journal. Before an article is deemed appropriate to be published in a peer-reviewed journal, it must undergo the following process:



* The author of the article must submit it to the journal editor who forwards the article to experts in the field. Because the reviewers specialize in the same scholarly area as the author, they are considered the author’s peers (hence “peer review”).

* The author of the submitted article does not have their name associated with the article.  This prevents bias if the reviewers know the author or are familiar with them professionally.

* The reviewers aren't made known to the author for the same reasons.

* These impartial reviewers are charged with carefully evaluating the quality of the submitted manuscript.

* The peer reviewers check the manuscript for accuracy and assess the validity of the research methodology and procedures.

* If appropriate, they suggest revisions. If they find the article lacking in scholarly validity and rigor, they reject it.

* Because a peer-reviewed journal will not publish articles that fail to meet the standards established for a given discipline, peer-reviewed articles that are accepted for publication exemplify the best research practices in a field.

Can you imagine if that spread on a massive scale? Kids growing up preferring to be healthy, using less cuss words, wholesome, holding out for love instead of easy action. Madness!

There are many ways to get around the “socially awkward“ concern many have. In Fla homeschoolers are allowed to participate in public school team sports. There are organizations they can join like Young Marines, Civil Air Patrol, etc. or JROTC in high school. They get the opportunity to spend summer and winter camps on military bases, taught by active duty military.

Probably would stay away from the scout organizations.

I dont hqve kids but if I did I would consider it.

Simply because it doesnt make a ton of sense to have two people out earning only to put the kid in day care at 1000-1200 a month and essentially negate half a pay check.   One person working and one person rqising the kid til like highschool age can be a logical argument.

My kids wouldnt be as straight laced as my buddy who is raising Nimrod and Nimtods.

I am more a godless heathen.   But seeing my buddy know what he wanted to do since the 3rd grade(computer science/programming) and see him be purposely working towards that goal.   That was a fairly remarkable thing.

Well, it sounds good - but it has been proven over and over again that scientists are whores, and scientific journals - even the formerly estemed Lancet - will publish anything that satisfies the editors' political whims.

Sorry, I'm not following you.

What political ideology would the 45 different studies be whoring themselves out to, and what behind-the-scenes subversive coordination do you think all the anonymous peer reviewers engaged in?

Who financially benefits from rigging 45 studies?

Given the opposition from most institutions to home and family-based education, you would expect the opposite, and for the reviewers to taint the research with their own political bias against freedom and independence.

This anecdotal but some may find interesting.

The local grocery store hired a couple of homeschool kids including one of mine.  They immediately noted that they were their highest performing workers with consistently the highest customer feedback.  The manager told them to bring in more of their friends and they hired about 6 more.  They too were high performing and the manager put the word out to more stores who followed suit.  He told me if he had his choice homeschool kids would be all he hires.  They interact well with customers, can run a register, don’t steal, are outgoing, and show up for work on time.  In short, the have the positive traits to succeed.  Just wanting to add this because it’s already shown in the studies they do well in school/college.

I had an interesting conversation with one of the grocery store guys in the Smith's close to our home.

He used to work at Target, and had this new hire who was always on her phone, wouldn't work, would just stand in the aisles and talk or text on her smart phone while the crates sat there not getting loaded onto shelves.

This guy was her supervisor, and told her that she needed to have those crates loaded onto the shelves at no more than 15 minutes per aisle, and to put her phone away.

She called her daddy and complained about how she was being treated at work.  (This is a young adult woman in age at least.)

Her daddy called Target senior management and gave them an earful about how poorly his baby was being treated at work.

Management came down on the store, and the store manager told the supervisor he had to be more sensitive and caring when talking with the team members, otherwise their feelings would be hurt and it would create a toxic work environment.

Even when I was a young teen working different jobs, the idea that I would do something like that never occurred to me.  We just showed up and did our jobs and got a paycheck.  To see adults failing at basic tasks and not knowing their role in a company seems to be more and more the norm.

My wife was a supervisor at a large National/International company.  She saw a lot of the same things there, where new employees after 2 weeks of not showing up to work on-time would ask when they are getting a raise and promotion to manager positions.  

I hope the manager fired her.



I think it starts with how few expectations are set at home by the parents.

Case in point:  My son and I were watching Cobra Kai series on Netflix, in one episode Ralph Maccio's teenage daughter has a pool party without his permission, he throws the kids out, later he's shown cleaning up all the pool floats the kids left over.  My 14yo son blurts out "Why is the dad cleaning up from his daughter's unauthorized pool party? Why isn't he making HER clean up her mess? She's never gonna learn responsibility that way."  Yeah, I know it's Hollywood, but it's a metaphor for a great many kids today.  

I saw this 15 years ago in BigLaw.  The HR manager was a lawyer, he shared with me that they had several summer associates who didn't get job offers, and two of them had a parent call and demand to know why Typhanee and Jaiden didn't get job offers.  He was blown away by both the presumptuousness of the parents and the helplessness of the "child."  These were 24yo adults who had their PARENTS call to demand a job offer.

There have now been decades of data showing not only do homeschoolers greatly outperform their peers when it comes to academics and professional accomplishments, but if you actually meet homeschooled children they have a tendency to speak properly and seem very mature for their age.  This is in my own personal experience and if someone is waiting for me to collect data from all 50 states to prove it, I'll just say keep waiting cuz it's not gonna happen.  If you homeschool your children, are you going to let them be awkward?  If not, then why worry about a stigma that may or may not even be true?

We've done private, public and homeschool with our older boys.  They seem to be doing just fine and spend far too much time chasing girls and hanging with friends, in addition to extra-curricular activities  (they are both in public school now but were just as popular before).  The youngest is getting homeschooled as a Kindergartener so we don't know how he'll turn out.  If he's awkward it's because of his parents and not whether he was schooled at home or in government schools.

One thing people should keep in mind, is that the vast majority of social interaction is not at school but at activities outside of school.  Football alone is 2-5 days a week of practice (depending on the grade).  My belief (no facts to back it up) is that kids learn far more about socialization and not being awkward through sports where the same expectations are placed on everyone and there is a common interest.  Socialization in public school seems to be limited to learning how to deal with kids who act like clowns with no punishment, bullies, gossip, etc...

Literally not true. I find that to be a cherry picked, mostly singular, observation.

I’ve never met a home schooled kid that wasn’t a weirdo.

This isn't GD.  

And you've seen plenty of homeschooled kids in public who weren't weirdos, you just didn't know they were homeschooled.

Finally, if the kids are weirdo, it's not because of homeschooling, it's because their parents were weirdos.  It's not like there are zero weird kids in public or private school.

If I called them socially awkward...would it help with your sensitivity to the issue?  Most people don’t get that upset over “weirdo”...let me guess, you were homeschooled?

Its probable that I have met someone that was home schooled that wasn’t socially awkward...but anyone who I've ever known that was home schooled, ended up being socially inept.

I’m sure their parents played an important role but their parents are not the only factor in child development.  The fact is, kids not in a traditional school environment are at a significant disadvantage when it comes to social development in our society.

Nobody said there are zero weird kids that don’t go to traditional school...what people are saying is...home schooled kids end up socially awkward because they don’t have the same 13 years of socialization that the majority of of society gets.

Only around trannies and pedos.

Ive always wondered if homeschooling in and of itself actually made better kids or the fact that the parent cared enough about the kid to spend time with them. I mean honestly Parent A ignores their kid constantly, while parent B does stuff with them educating them, teaching, and as a teacher grows. Heck id amost guarantee that the vast majority of homeschoolers are from 2 parent familes too. Almost like the traditional nuclear family is a "good " thing...

My homeschool homies would go right into "your mom" jokes as soon as the moms (and that one stuck up tattletale girl that was in every group) left the room.

My "socialization" as a homeschooler came primarily from things like homeschool co-op, church, Civil Air Patrol, and work, I held a part time job from 13 years old.

I really think people make a much bigger deal of socialization than it is. Just take the kids around to do what you do already and add activities they desire as they get older, it will take care of itself.

Clearly you don't get out much....

Attached File

Nope

Everyone is weird. It took me a long time to realize this. Home-schooled kids only seem unusual because they are, from a social interaction perspective, closer to an adult than their peers.  After college you can't tell who was educated where.

Regarding the topic of discussion: I am not surprised. However, I am curious how high-IQ children fair in homeschooling.  Is there an equivalent of AP for them? AP can cut half a year off an Engineering bachelor's and that is a huge advantage for honors-track students.

Final anecdote: I have seen stellar and terrible results from homeschooling. I did not keep in touch with the stellar ones but those with poor homeschooling still turned out fine. Plenty of the public school graduates ended up homeless, in jail, or dead. So education isn't the final factor in where you end up

The bolded part simply isn’t true.  May make someone feel better, but it isn’t true.

I do wonder if the "off or weirdness" of home school kids has more to do with the person doing the home schooling.  As in the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree, so to say.  

Also to a previous post, in college ive known a couple of home schooled kids that when absolutely uninhibited in college.  Extreme alcohol use coupled with promiscuity, once the parents were not there 24/7.  Of course so did some public schooled kids.  And that is the point.

Neither do you.

Wrong