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Posted: 10/3/2023 12:50:14 PM EDT
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Over the past five years, I've lost 175 pounds and completely overhauled and improved my physical fitness. I'd like to gain some physical combat skills so I can improve my ability to defend my family and myself. In addition to my firearms skills; not instead of. I don't want to compete. I don't want to start fights. I don't want to be a badass. I don't want to threaten. I don't want to be a poser. I just want to be better at it than I am now. I've been in a few fights here and there but it's been quite some time. I prevailed more often than not but I have a hard time saying that I ever won anything, given how much damage I sustained whether I prevailed or not. I was also fortunate that when I didn't prevail, the other guy stopped and walked away. If they had wanted to stomp me into an ICU or a hole in the ground, they could have. They chose not to. I'm also realistic. I'm almost 67 years old, have had a bunch of heart attacks, and have some long-term health issues. I'm never going to be a threat to anyone who is serious about their unarmed martial arts and I'd probably have my hands full with an unskilled fighter half my age or 10% stronger and faster than me even if I were trained. I don't think this is an easy goal I've laid out for myself nor do I think it won't be chock full of physical and mental challenges. I know it will be hard and I know it will require some toughness on my part. Despite all of that, I know that whatever degree of ability I develop, it will be better than what I have now. And while there may be a lot of situations out there I will never be able to handle even with training and practice, there are a lot of other situations where a skill level higher than "none" could very well make a huge difference in the outcome. I'm willing to put in the work. I'm willing to take the pain. I'm willing to learn. I just don't know where to go from here. Some form of mixed martial arts seems to be the way to go but I know I don't know enough to make any choices. I do know that I don't want to learn anything that has to do with competitive martial arts. I won't want to learn how to not head-butt, for example, or grab ahold of something for leverage, just because it's against the rules in competitions. I need some direction. There are studios/dojos etc. all over the place but it seems like I'd need to know what style or flavor of martial arts I want to learn and I don't know enough to even make that choice. If you can offer any suggestions for how I should proceed, I'm all ears. Thanks! |
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Do you want to train in self defense or to fight? They're different but related. If you want to train to fight, then MMA is your best bet or some combination of the primary disciplines that make up MMA: jujitsu, wrestling, boxing, kickboxing. But to be honest, at 67 with no prior experience (and I don't know your physical limitations) you need to be realistic your body may not be able to handle the rigor (although you would get probably still get some benefit from boxing). Self defense training will teach you to get a away safely vice winning a fight. Much self defense training is not taught as a system of continuous training though and often as seminars to the best of my knowledge. I train in krav maga and boxing. Krav incorporates fighting (same disciplines as MMA) but also broader self defense techniques and scenarios. It's not meant to give you the skill of an MA fighter but to handle most situations you'll find yourself in. I also focus on boxing because it's more natural to me (and at 48) better suited to me. Lots of people have differing views on krav, I like it for what it is intended to train you for. Whatever you choose, you need a reputable and solid instructor/coach. |
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Originally Posted By SIG_gunner: Do you want to train in self defense or to fight? They're different but related. If you want to train to fight, then MMA is your best bet or some combination of the primary disciplines that make up MMA: jujitsu, wrestling, boxing, kickboxing. But to be honest, at 67 with no prior experience (and I don't know your physical limitations) you need to be realistic your body may not be able to handle the rigor (although you would get probably still get some benefit from boxing). Self defense training will teach you to get a away safely vice winning a fight. Much self defense training is not taught as a system of continuous training though and often as seminars to the best of my knowledge. I train in krav maga and boxing. Krav incorporates fighting (same disciplines as MMA) but also broader self defense techniques and scenarios. It's not meant to give you the skill of an MA fighter but to handle most situations you'll find yourself in. I also focus on boxing because it's more natural to me (and at 48) better suited to me. Lots of people have differing views on krav, I like it for what it is intended to train you for. Whatever you choose, you need a reputable and solid instructor/coach. Thank you! My ignorant assumption going in was that fighting and self-defense were the same thing. I already learned something. I would have to go with self-defense. 100%. My goal is to improve my chances of getting out of something with the least amount of harm to my family or me. From your post, that sounds like self-defense. One of the benefits of my ignorance is that I have no views on anything.  I understand the basic differences between most martial art styles from watching competitions but I know that won't give me a complete picture.I'm after what works best to achieve my goals. |
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Originally Posted By Greenspan: Look into a boxing school near you hut you will need to setup and one that isn't full of 20 year old killers. If you are near a Gracie combatives gym that is also great for someone looking for what you are from a grappling standpoint Thank you. The nearest Gracie is about an hour away. That's a bit far for something I intend to do regularly. Thanks for the heads-up about 20 year old killers. |
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Within each style (jujutsu, karate, judo, krav maga, etc) there are immense differences. Most Gracie jujutsu dojo's are geared toward MMA competition, not all out no rules street fighting. Some forms of jujutsu, or Hap Ki Do are very much all out fighting with no rules. Simply put they are designed to win regardless of how much your opponent is injured. First you will need to decide what YOUR rules are, then find a dojo with rules that meet your goals. Some jujutsu styles are considered antiquated because they were designed to fight on a medieval battlefield against people in armor..so they involve a great deal of joint/bone breaking (including necks) and they realize that punching a man in armor isn't nearly as effective as breaking his leg....so decide what your rules are, then find a dojo that shares what you want to learn. |
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Originally Posted By Genin: Within each style (jujutsu, karate, judo, krav maga, etc) there are immense differences. Most Gracie jujutsu dojo's are geared toward MMA competition, not all out no rules street fighting. Some forms of jujutsu, or Hap Ki Do are very much all out fighting with no rules. Simply put they are designed to win regardless of how much your opponent is injured. First you will need to decide what YOUR rules are, then find a dojo with rules that meet your goals. Some jujutsu styles are considered antiquated because they were designed to fight on a medieval battlefield against people in armor..so they involve a great deal of joint/bone breaking (including necks) and they realize that punching a man in armor isn't nearly as effective as breaking his leg....so decide what your rules are, then find a dojo that shares what you want to learn. I feel like I lost brain cells reading this. |
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Originally Posted By Genin: Within each style (jujutsu, karate, judo, krav maga, etc) there are immense differences. Most Gracie jujutsu dojo's are geared toward MMA competition, not all out no rules street fighting. Some forms of jujutsu, or Hap Ki Do are very much all out fighting with no rules. Simply put they are designed to win regardless of how much your opponent is injured. First you will need to decide what YOUR rules are, then find a dojo with rules that meet your goals. Some jujutsu styles are considered antiquated because they were designed to fight on a medieval battlefield against people in armor..so they involve a great deal of joint/bone breaking (including necks) and they realize that punching a man in armor isn't nearly as effective as breaking his leg....so decide what your rules are, then find a dojo that shares what you want to learn. If someone is trying to do harm to me or my family, I won't be following any rules. I'm not interesting in learning any rules, either. I never started a fight in my life and I'm planning to keep it that way. If someone is bringing violence to me and mine, I'm going to assume they're not following any rules either. My priorities are 1) avoid the threat, 2) get away from the threat, 3) disable the threat sufficient to get away from it, and 4) eliminate the threat and then get away. |
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Originally Posted By Overtorque: Even if you ignore the rules, the rules (Revised Code of Washington) will be applied to you. See, e.g., The Law of Self Defense. Where are you in WA? BJJ is a good way to go. By tapping early and often, you can limit injuries. Thanks. I'm in the hills northeast of Monroe a few miles. In the Lake Roesiger area. |
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Thank you, Sir! |
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Shivworks ECQC Look into Shivworks Extreme Close Quarters Concepts (ECQC) or the Practical Unarmed Combat Craig and Brian are great instructors and provide in a short time frame some basic techniques and skills you can work with. Worth the time, money and travel to attend.  What is an ECQC? |
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As LE, my standard recommendation is BJJ and boxing or kickboxing. I've only trained on and off and am just a white belt, but I've used BJJ a lot on the job. My use case is also a little different than self defense. A gym that teaches both and has some MMA participation will teach to watch out for strikes while grappling, especially no gi classes. No gi classes tend to work takedowns more IME. I've also never been in a fight outside of work since I was in grade school. Even working as a pretty busy LE officer 10+ years, I've only been in what I would call a fight 2 or 3 times at work. Avoid people, places, and actions that could get you in a fight. |
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| Thanks for the help, everybody. I'm going to start with Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. There are three places with good ratings in the town nearest to us and they all offer a free lesson. I'm going to sign up for a free lesson for each of them and then make a choice. All three also offer Muy Thai, which has always interested me. |
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Originally Posted By dangerranger61007:Avoid people, places, and actions that could get you in a fight. Always the best plan, IMO. Situational awareness is everything. |
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Originally Posted By Cascade-Dude: Thanks for the help, everybody. I'm going to start with Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. There are three places with good ratings in the town nearest to us and they all offer a free lesson. I'm going to sign up for a free lesson for each of them and then make a choice. All three also offer Muy Thai, which has always interested me. Cool, if they don't have you rolling the first day go to a different gym. Ask how often they spar in striking, you will learn a lot more about fighting and quicker with sparring than by hitting pads or bags. |
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Originally Posted By psychotr: Cool, if they don't have you rolling the first day go to a different gym. Ask how often they spar in striking, you will learn a lot more about fighting and quicker with sparring than by hitting pads or bags. Thank you! I was scheduled for a free session this week but the snow changed all that. Hopefully next week. Thanks for looking out for me! |
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I settled on a mix of Krav Maga and BJJ> If you want to go that route, check out the Krav Maga alliance website for an affiliate school near you. That'll keep you out of the Bobs Pizza and Super Ninja Krav Maga dojo kind of places. Krav Maga Alliance I've done a few seminars held by John Whitman (the Founder of KMA). He actually ran my Black Belt test. They are bringing in more grappling, muay Thai stuff, etc. They don't rest on their laurels. I look at is as being a generalist vs a specialist. We do boxing, kickboxing, grappling, weapons defenses, etc. You will not be a master boxer, grappler, etc., but you'll have a solid understanding of strikes, ground work, etc. |
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Originally Posted By dunndw: I settled on a mix of Krav Maga and BJJ> If you want to go that route, check out the Krav Maga alliance website for an affiliate school near you. That'll keep you out of the Bobs Pizza and Super Ninja Krav Maga dojo kind of places. Krav Maga Alliance I've done a few seminars held by John Whitman (the Founder of KMA). He actually ran my Black Belt test. They are bringing in more grappling, muay Thai stuff, etc. They don't rest on their laurels. I look at is as being a generalist vs a specialist. We do boxing, kickboxing, grappling, weapons defenses, etc. You will not be a master boxer, grappler, etc., but you'll have a solid understanding of strikes, ground work, etc. Thanks! I am interested in adding other styles but want to start with just one. I have no expectation of becoming a master of anything even if I stick with one style. I'm 67, survived 22 heart attacks, and still have clogged arteries that limit the strength and endurance of my left leg and right arm. On the plus side, I've lost 170 pounds and have been lifting, doing yoga, running trails, hiking with a 25 pound pack, and so on. My fitness trainer tells me I'm very flexible for anyone, let alone someone my age. When I was younger and fit, I was also very flexible. I don't know but I'm guessing that good flexibility might be more of an advantage in BJJ than it is on other styles. In my younger days, I played football as an undersized offensive lineman. I had to learn leverage, footwork, reading an opponent, and so on, just to have a chance. BJJ seems like the style that has the best chance of bringing back some of that long-unused physical memory. I have no idea what's going to happen when I start training but I'm going to find out. What I hope to find is someone who can teach me how to work around my liabilities and maximize my strengths. I tend to be a realistic sort of dude. I know the challenges I face are big. Whatever skills I gain, however modest, will be more than I have now. If unarmed combat skills are rated from 1 to 100, I might be a 3 or a 4 right now. Maybe. If I get to 10, that will be a big improvement. There will still be tons of people out there who could easily take me down but I will have a better chance of survival against someone who isn't very skilled. My instincts tell me that as the skill number gets higher, the number of people at that level of skill goes down. For me, this is all about being able to protect my wife of 45 years. We're getting into that age that some bad guys actively seek. I take my duties as a husband seriously and so I feel the need to up my game because bad guys are getting more violent and more widespread all the time and we're more attractive targets. I'm absolutely sold on a mix of styles. Krav Maga and Muy Thai are the two at the top of my list, pending further investigation. If there was a place nearby where I could get into a program like you described, that starts out with mixed styles and is focused on self-defense, I would take a good, hard look at it. So far, what I've found are just a tad too far for a 2-or-more sessions a week commitment. Once I get going on BJJ and/or a mixed style, I'll start looking into training with knives, blunt objects (baton, Bō, baseball bat), and maybe tomahawks. |
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You can't go wrong with BJJ and kickboxing/Muay Thai. Easier to find a real gym than most anything else. I wouldn't necessarily expect your instructor to teach you to work around your weaknesses. Maybe a little of you get some one on one time, but most of that comes from you. You will struggle at first, but as you learn more you will adapt to use different techniques that work for you. For example, I've got a bad hip. If someone tries to pass my guard on that side, I don't resist or it will cause me problems. As soon as someone starts to pass, I try to set something up and get a step ahead rather than fight to stop them passing. No one taught me specifically to do that (other than not clinging to what you arent going to keep), it's just learning different things and putting together what works for me. Have fun, don't get discouraged when the floor gets mopped with you, and don't get yourself injured. You can't learn when you have to sit out. |
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Originally Posted By dangerranger61007: You can't go wrong with BJJ and kickboxing/Muay Thai. Easier to find a real gym than most anything else. I wouldn't necessarily expect your instructor to teach you to work around your weaknesses. Maybe a little of you get some one on one time, but most of that comes from you. You will struggle at first, but as you learn more you will adapt to use different techniques that work for you. For example, I've got a bad hip. If someone tries to pass my guard on that side, I don't resist or it will cause me problems. As soon as someone starts to pass, I try to set something up and get a step ahead rather than fight to stop them passing. No one taught me specifically to do that (other than not clinging to what you arent going to keep), it's just learning different things and putting together what works for me. Have fun, don't get discouraged when the floor gets mopped with you, and don't get yourself injured. You can't learn when you have to sit out. Thanks! Great stuff. Thanks for the encouragement especially. |
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Another vote for Krav Maga for a couple reasons. KM is really a mish mash of all the other martial arts. Punching is from boxing, throws are judo, ground work is BJJ. You can start your training and look at it as a sampler platter to help you decide if you want to go a different direction. KM was meant to teach people relatively quickly how to defend themselves. I went thru Krav Maga Worldwide so I can't speak to KMA, but I bet it's similar in regards to levels and such. Each day of training you learn something new, and you can build upon it. After my first lesson I felt I learned something I could use that night if I really had to. I dont hink you could say that about most other MAs. |
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Originally Posted By SCARed: Another vote for Krav Maga for a couple reasons. KM is really a mish mash of all the other martial arts. Punching is from boxing, throws are judo, ground work is BJJ. You can start your training and look at it as a sampler platter to help you decide if you want to go a different direction. KM was meant to teach people relatively quickly how to defend themselves. I went thru Krav Maga Worldwide so I can't speak to KMA, but I bet it's similar in regards to levels and such. Each day of training you learn something new, and you can build upon it. After my first lesson I felt I learned something I could use that night if I really had to. I dont hink you could say that about most other MAs. Interesting. Thanks for sharing. You make a compelling case. |
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I don't have any advice to give, but I wish you well in your endeavors, as well as congratulations for losing 175 pounds. That's immense. |
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Originally Posted By Jodan1776: I don't have any advice to give, but I wish you well in your endeavors, as well as congratulations for losing 175 pounds. That's immense. Thanks! |
"Call a magazine a clip again. I dare you, I double dare you mother******, call a magazine a clip one more ******* time!"
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At 67 with heart attacks under your belt something that makes your heart race is the last thing you need. When I was younger I did all the badass stuff and of course broke everything that goes along with that. If you want to get back to where you can defend yourself or others then try something that isn't going to put you back in the hospital again. There are forms of self-defense that are taught slow but teach you to move as fast as you are able to when needed. I am 77 and still working out and yes there has been a few times over the years that I had to use it. Just because you practice something slowly doesn't mean you can't use it quickly. The form I am doing now is Tai Chi, The style is the Sue family style. It isn't the most kick-ass type of Chi, it will simply get you back in shape instead of showing you that you have gotten older and you break a lot easier than you used to. The one I'm using is by Dr. Paul Lam, he has many very helpful videos that will help you get back in shape, and that will/can prepare you for whatever you decide to do next. And yes if you need it to kickass, you will be able to if you practice. |
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Originally Posted By Cascade-Dude: Thanks for the help, everybody. I'm going to start with Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. There are three places with good ratings in the town nearest to us and they all offer a free lesson. I'm going to sign up for a free lesson for each of them and then make a choice. All three also offer Muy Thai, which has always interested me. BJJ will almost certainly kick your butt cardio wise. As far as ground work, BJJ is arguably one of the best martial arts for owning on the ground with limitations. BJJ that i practiced didn't train how to deal with an eye gouge, what to do if bad guy's friend pulls a gun(literally that training was "ok here is my wallet", throw one direction run other, which is great if they wanted you dead you are already taking lead, if they want wallet they are going other way), and it seldom addresses a friend of bad guy decides to kick you in head while you are breaking first guys arm on the ground. So blend a couple arts is a good way to deal the short comings of any one particular art. BJJ sucks at striking, why because in BJJ you cant strike, DUH. If you were boxing however and you threw a guy on the ground , mounted and then broke his elbow you would be thrown out. So you get MMA, except Sport MMA doesnt have "guy you are wrestling with pulld a Kbar" training, or "bad guy has a friend with broken beer bottle", etc. And some of the "traditional " martial arts dont address "new" things they emphasize traditional style, nothing wrong with that, keeping a old art alive because they like it is awesome, but most people don't know how to tune a hit or miss engine any more, because it isnt really a good use of learning time. Example traditional Akido (very low impact, weird pants, and some cool wrist joint stuff, but not particularly good for self defense (though way better than " NFL , beer and Lays ). There is no "gun defense" in Akido, seriously, traditional Akido does NOT address "bad guy with pistol" because traditionally pistols don't exist in Japan, so they therefor don't need to be defended against. It would be as foreign a concept as "space alien ship mounted ray gun" defense would be to Boxing training, it simply doesn't exist to plan for . BJJ is an evolution of traditional Japanese Jiujitsu(which is non competitive, so doesnt really evolve) with a significant competition element which lead to a very quick evolution, and thus the "best most effective stuff" thrives and gets passed on. Look at MMA back in the "pride fight' days it was typically 2 brawlers, then BJJ became huge as a skillset WITH boxing/striking. |
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Originally Posted By Cascade-Dude: Over the past five years, I've lost 175 pounds and completely overhauled and improved my physical fitness. I'd like to gain some physical combat skills so I can improve my ability to defend my family and myself. In addition to my firearms skills; not instead of. I don't want to compete. I don't want to start fights. I don't want to be a badass. I don't want to threaten. I don't want to be a poser. I just want to be better at it than I am now. I've been in a few fights here and there but it's been quite some time. I prevailed more often than not but I have a hard time saying that I ever won anything, given how much damage I sustained whether I prevailed or not. I was also fortunate that when I didn't prevail, the other guy stopped and walked away. If they had wanted to stomp me into an ICU or a hole in the ground, they could have. They chose not to. I'm also realistic. I'm almost 67 years old, have had a bunch of heart attacks, and have some long-term health issues. I'm never going to be a threat to anyone who is serious about their unarmed martial arts and I'd probably have my hands full with an unskilled fighter half my age or 10% stronger and faster than me even if I were trained. I don't think this is an easy goal I've laid out for myself nor do I think it won't be chock full of physical and mental challenges. I know it will be hard and I know it will require some toughness on my part. Despite all of that, I know that whatever degree of ability I develop, it will be better than what I have now. And while there may be a lot of situations out there I will never be able to handle even with training and practice, there are a lot of other situations where a skill level higher than "none" could very well make a huge difference in the outcome. I'm willing to put in the work. I'm willing to take the pain. I'm willing to learn. I just don't know where to go from here. Some form of mixed martial arts seems to be the way to go but I know I don't know enough to make any choices. I do know that I don't want to learn anything that has to do with competitive martial arts. I won't want to learn how to not head-butt, for example, or grab ahold of something for leverage, just because it's against the rules in competitions. I need some direction. There are studios/dojos etc. all over the place but it seems like I'd need to know what style or flavor of martial arts I want to learn and I don't know enough to even make that choice. If you can offer any suggestions for how I should proceed, I'm all ears. Thanks! Congratulations on the weight loss. I am a few years behind you and have not had any cardiac issues. But i have seen this in my family. Fighting and training to fight are extreme anaerobic cardio events. You need to talk to your cardiologist about this plan. Your family does not need you dead on a mat. If you are deep into a solid cardio training program and know you can safely achieve maximum heart rate for your age and condition; and you have done the weight training to develop the requisite muscle fitness for any type of combat sport; then you can work on some hand to hand skills safely. At your age, I would not go into heavy training in any of these martial arts. If you want to practice them as part of a general fitness program, great. But with compromised cardio capability and age related muscle atrophy, you are not ever going to be an effective hand to hand fighter starting at this age. The good news is that the laws of self-defense do not require you to be. You are not going to be the first aggressor. And if a loved one is being attacked, you are not expected to go hands on. For physical self defense you need to learn techniques to break holds, not apply them. You are not interested in restraining anyone, unlike PO and others who have that as part of their job. You need to work on very dirty street techniques to break a hold, blunt an initial attack, or to create distance to deploy your weapon that you of course always carry. This could include stick training that would cover a mobility aid that is a fighting stick, something like a weak side knife with some training in its use-the clinch pick and the techniques associated with it are an excellent place to start. Always have OC just in case it would work and less lethal is called for. You can spray a guy who is just yelling at you and acting crazy. It is also good for dogs. Ask me how I know. At your age, anyone who gives you any aggressive shit you don't initiate can be sprayed down. You need to train a few instinctual opening moves that will inflict the maximum damage on the attacker without reducing you ability to respond. Which why you should not be training in any punching. The bones in your hand break more easily now and may cripple your ability to deploy a pistol. Heal strikes, hammer fist may be OK. Elbow strike, excellent for someone on top of you. Eye gouge, the best really to shut down an attack. A stick or fighting umbrella jab to the face. (The correct umbrella is an excellent impact/thrust weapon that can be carried everywhere, including through TSA, the same for a mobility aid, cane as long as it is not one of those obviously fighting tools. That will be stopped on international travel.) For street self defense you need a few opening gambits that will debilitate an attacker efficiently and quickly. You will not ever be able to sustain some grappling contest with a younger opponent. If you can learn some vicious strikes and effective parries that create time and distance to deploy an appropriate weapon, you will be best served. Other than that, I would focus on general strength and fitness. Especially whatever controlled training you can to assure cardio capability safely. Then general strength training is the most important thing. MA can be a part of that; but expect it to be the orthopedic surgeon full employment act for someone your age. Particularly if you have joint damage from being overweight. |
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@GrumpyinStL Excellent advice- thank you! I’m like the OP and at almost 66 and never been in a fight I have no clue on how to defend my wife and myself without using a pistol. Which would probably in my state land me in prison. I’m not overweight but not in shape either. I’m trying to work on the lack of strength. I’m going to see if I can find a way to learn how to use the methods you mentioned. |
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NY, USA
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Grumpy’s post above is gold. I’d like to add a different perspective… I took a combined total of 14 years of martial arts classes when I was younger. It helped me later in many ways. A better understanding of physics and pressure points is also priceless. I had my career in federal law enforcement and as far as use of force experience goes, it was uneventful. As a retirement gig, I’m a campus cop at an extremely liberal institution within an extremely liberal geographic area. Everything is recorded on camera one way or another. We do our best to de-escalate. But let me tell you, all of the training I’ve had could hardly prepare me for reality. It was all an excellent foundation, but there’s no substitute for experience. Sparring in a classroom or at a tournament is not much compared to being alone when a methed-out junkie with psychological problems and nothing to lose decides he isn’t going easily and starts fighting. |
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Originally Posted By psychotr: Cool, if they don't have you rolling the first day go to a different gym. Ask how often they spar in striking, you will learn a lot more about fighting and quicker with sparring than by hitting pads or bags. Day 1 guys shouldnt be rolling |
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Originally Posted By Cascade-Dude: Thanks. I'm in the hills northeast of Monroe a few miles. In the Lake Roesiger area. You have an awesome Jiu-Jitsu school next to you in Lake Stevens. Unfortunately they’re well known and not accepting new members. I have A buddy who trains somewhere in Monroe i can ask what gym he goes to If you’re ever interested in trying a class that’s south of you. Let me know. |