Posted: 4/11/2024 1:36:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: KaerMorhenResident][Edited]
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Random nerd thought of the day: George Lucas has said that Mace Windu won his fight with Sidious, but I don't think that's entirely true. Mace did put Sidious on his back, but it was all by Sidious's design and at no point was Sidious in any danger from Mace Windu. Below are some points that I think support my conclusion. (1) Although now resigned to "legends" and not canon I believe although the novel Darth Plagueis contradicted it, it is still valuable for understanding Star Wars. In that novel after months of intense Sith meditation Darth Plagueis and Sidious tip the balance of the Force to favor the dark side clouding the Jedi's foresite and strengthening their own. (2) Mace walked into the Chancelor's office at a serious disadvantage. Whereas Sidious had decades to study Mace and understand his fighting style and abilities with countless previous fights during the Clone Wars by Mace to study him Mace didn't have any knowledge of Sidious's fighting styles or abilities. (3) Everything that had transpired had done so according to Sidious's design and everyone who entered the Chancelor's office was essentially there at his invitation. The timing is too perfect and it becomes sillier and sillier to chalk so many things up to coincidence, especially when we're discussing Sidious who is a master manipulator. (4) In the novel Darth Plagueis there is a part where Plagueis tells Sidious that a Sith cannot have the full power of Sith lightening until he takes some of it himself. So, when Mace is redirecting the Sith lightening back into Sidious what he is really doing is charging Sidious up in power like a damn Dark Side battery. That is why Sidious screams "unlimited power" when he finally unleashes his Force lightening on Mace sending Mace through the window. Sidious could at long last take the Force lightening and allow himself to be disfigured by it because he could drop his mask. Notice that after receiving the Force lightening into his face that Sidious although pleading with Anakin to help him because he was "too weak" just stands up on his own after Anakin slices off Mace's arm. Sidious after Mace goes through the window doesn't act injured in the slightest or even out of breath. Sidious's voice now resonates with an almost echo as he says "rise" and that is to signify that he has come out of that duel with even greater power than he went into it. Sidious never has to go into a medical capsule or bacta tank, he has full command of his faculties and is able to carry out the Sith grand plan flawlessly immediatley after that fight. Shortly after that fight Sidious even has the strength to go toe to toe with Yoda himself in the Senate. Sidious played Mace like a fiddle to in turn play Anakin. At no point was Sidious ever in danger from Mace and he had full command of that fight. Even as he's pleading for Anakin to help him you can see Sidious doing a pretty poor job of hiding the joy in his eyes when manipulating Anakin and it's definitely not a look of fear. I believe in a number of interviews when asked if Sidious won the dual the actor who played him, Ian McDiarmid has stated that he won and I believe he definitely played that scene that way. What do you guys think? |
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Originally Posted By 110: Has there ever been a more successful villain than Palpatine? I mean, at least in cinema, not real life where Good loses because Good is dumb. Palpatine had the ultimate sigma mindset grindset. He worked his rear end off for decades to put the Jedi into checkmate. I can't imagine the patience and discipline that took, especially since he couldn't stand the Jedi and had to sit there for years smiling at them. I love the book Darth Plagueis, it is my favorite science fiction novel of all time. One of life single biggest tragedies is that it can't be brought to live action series while we still have the author James Luceno (in his 70's now) and Ian McDiarmid (he'll be 80 this year) still with us. I'd love a series that follow that book to the letter and followed Palpatine from his teenage years to the start of Phantom Menance. |
| Darth Plagueis was a fantastic novel. Very smartly written with smart bad guys. Sidious was the Sith Lord of all Sith Lords. The novel did a great job of exploring the politics and corruption that lead to the downfall of the Republic, the Jedi and the rise of the Sith. |
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In the original choreography and script, Mace Windu never had a chance. Sidious was way too fast and powerful, so quick he shocked everyone and struck down the first two Jedi before they had any idea that the old Chancellor was more than he seemed. He only pretended to start losing when Anakin showed up, to entice Anakin to the dark side. However, George Lucas made a last-minute decision to not use the trained stunt doubles as planned, and instead had Ian McDiarmid and Samuel Jackson do it themselves. But they just weren't good enough or fast enough, and the final version is really lame compared to what was planned. Here's test footage of the stunt doubles practicing.  STAR WARS TEST FOOTAGE: WINDU VS PALPATINE And here's a clever fan edit trying to bring the final footage more in-line with the original shooting plans.  Windu vs Palpatine scene FIXED (Palpatine's real fight speed) |
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