Posted: 1/2/2025 1:22:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: SACraig][Edited]
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Before I ask, there are four caveats: 1. I am absolutely NOT pointing fingers at police officers, or bashing them, or anything else. Quite the opposite, I support the police 100%. My father was Tennessee Highway Patrol (enlisted as a motorcycle officer with the Inglewood/Madison (TN) Fire and Police Department in 1942). Rose through the ranks and eventually retired as a Colonel in about 1966 or so. We lost him to cancer in 1989. 2. This question, as mentioned, is hypothetical. As far as I know the circumstances have never been brought forward and the question is simply based on something I saw on S.W.A.T. (Season 6, Episode 19 - "Bunkies") 3. I'm not a reporter or lawyer or anything else. At best I'm a retired designer for a Consulting Engineering Company. I just happened to see this sequence play out on TV and wondered about it. I decided to ask and this forum appeared to be the most logical since it is primarily geared toward LEO's and your "Forum Rules" reads, "We welcome the chance to answer legitimate questions, offer advice and give you a chance to maybe see the world the way we do." In short I'm not trying to stir up trouble for anyone at all, just curious. 4. If this violates any kind of "Trade Secrets" used to protect police officers then just ignore the posting. If the forum admins object to it for any reason whatsoever please feel free to nuke it. Again, I'm not trying to stir up any trouble I'm just honestly curious. SCENARIO IN A NUTSHELL A guy intentionally hits another guy who is jogging down the middle of a residential street with his car. A bystander sees this happen and uses her cell phone to snap a photo of the back of the car. She calls the LAPD (yeah, it's in California which may have something to do with it) who run the plate and send S.W.A.T. to the address. They surround the house and the leader calls the perpetrator with a bullhorn while others go in the rear of the house. I missed a couple of minutes here and when I started watching again the suspect was sitting on the couch crying while still holding a handgun and the SWAT team is covering him. He is asked why he ran the guy down and he said some people broke into his house during the night, gave him details of the guy and where he would be, and told him if he didn't kill him they would kill the suspect's family. The suspect blubbers that he didn't want to do it and he couldn't go on, etc. He points his handgun up through the bottom of his mouth but can't pull the trigger. Swat guys are all telling him "Don't do it!", of course, and pointing their weapons at him. OK, I'm getting to the meat of the question. Sorry for the run-on description but I wanted it to be pretty clear. There is a little back-and-forth conversation between the suspect and SWAT guys and then the suspect rapidly swings his gun over in an attempt to shoot the SWAT leader who in turn shoots him (suicide by cop attempt). The suspect gets shot but not fatally, and he doesn't get a shot off. Later the SWAT leader states that he didn't want to assist the suspect in killing himself so he shot a little bit wide. FINALLY: THE QUESTION! So here (finally!) is the question: If the suspect has been paying any attention whatsoever to the SWAT guys he can easily see that they are covered in body armor and all he has is a piddly little 9mm handgun (based on what the bore looked like). He can hurt them but a head shot is his only way to do any real damage, plus there are 5 or 6 of them in the room so if he does get a shot off he's going to look like Swiss cheese. The SWAT leader certainly knows the same criteria. He knows he is wearing full body armor and the suspect only has an intermediate caliber handgun. Plus he can tell by the suspect's arm motion where he's going to aim and I suspect all of this is on the body cameras of every one of the SWAT team members. How can he shoot that suspect, knowing full well that nobody in that room is in any real danger of being killed, and call it justifiable? If I were there I would probably do the same thing but if a defense lawyer asked that question how would they be able to respond to it? THANK YOU! And finally, my thanks for helping get this out of my head so I can maybe sleep tonight. But more than that, thank you for being who you are and doing what you do. The fact that I can feel safe enough to sleep tonight is due in large part to what you guys do every day, and regardless of what some of these idiots across the country say your efforts are damn sure appreciated by some of us. If you are ever in my neck of the woods I'll be glad to buy you a cup of coffee and thank you in person. AND HERE'S DAD!  And here is a photo of my father circa 1957. I'm not real sure about the time frame but the THP had a group of Troopers named the "Yellow Jackets" and he was the first Commander of that unit. It was short-lived for some reason, but they were in parades for a few years and I always enjoyed seeing him. He and my mother got divorced when I was about 4 so he wasn't around when I needed him. He always remembered us on birthdays and Christmas and we talked several times a year. As I got older we went out to eat a number of times and went fishing a few times. But the older I got the more I missed having him around. So take it from me: Hug your kids every chance you get and don't ever let them think for a minute that they don't matter. |
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It’s TV DRAMA a world where everything goes according to script. In the real world any little thing can change the outcome. Most places SWAT is made up of patrol officers with additional training, only in a very large departments would you have something similar to the show where SWAT is a constant assignment. TV still believes the old westerns where they shot the gun out of his hand. In the real world people move, some of that TV stuff just doesn’t work like shooting out car tires it doesn’t work except on TV. If you point a gun at the cops expect to get shot, body armor isn’t 100 % effective if it was SWAT would have baseball bats not guns. |
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Originally Posted By Urimaginaryfrnd: It’s TV DRAMA a world where everything goes according to script. In the real world any little thing can change the outcome. Most places SWAT is made up of patrol officers with additional training, only in a very large departments would you have something similar to the show where SWAT is a constant assignment. TV still believes the old westerns where they shot the gun out of his hand. In the real world people move, some of that TV stuff just doesn’t work like shooting out car tires it doesn’t work except on TV. If you point a gun at the cops expect to get shot, body armor isn’t 100 % effective if it was SWAT would have baseball bats not guns. Body armor protects vital organs in the chest area. The head is not the only vulnerable unprotected area. The pelvic girdle and femoral artery are life threatening areas. A low shot that hits the femoral artery is a wound that can bleed out very quickly. Several years ago a Springfield MO Police Officer took a hit to the femoral artery. When he was immediately dragged out of the line of fire, there was a swath of blood a foot wide the entire length he was dragged. If there was not Paramedics already on the scene... he would have bled out. This was before tourniquets where commonly carried by LEOs. AND... as posted above, this is Hollywood drama make believe on TV and the movies. |
"Let's go Brandon!"
If somebody tries to kill you... you try to kill them right back!
"You can get more done with a kind word and a gun... than with a kind word alone!" Al Capone
If somebody tries to kill you... you try to kill them right back!
"You can get more done with a kind word and a gun... than with a kind word alone!" Al Capone
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with a suspect having a gun in his hands, the time for him to twist a gun from aiming at his head with his finger on the trigger, to getting a shot off at an officer standing in front of him could be measured in tenths of a second. Even a swat trained officer who had his morning coffee and is 100% tuned in has a very low probability of stopping the suspect before he can squeeze the trigger. Remember, the bad guy doesnt care where his shot goes, he can aim in the "general area" of the swat cop and just jerk the trigger and let one fly. Maybe he misses, maybe he send it downrange, through the window and hits the lady across the street watching the scene from her front porch... or maybe he gets a lucky shot off that hits the swat cop, shattering his pelvic girdle and shredding his femoral. The cop is dead before the medic has a chance to cut his pants off. The bad guy is also shot by 5 other swat cops, but not before he had that one lucky shot. Meanwhile the swat cop has to make a shot, that will stop the threat, without endangering anyone else, and doing so while under stress, and also while reacting to the new threat of the suspect turning the gun toward him with perceived hostile intent, oh yea, and doing all of that before the bad guy can jerk the trigger... TV and movies are fantasy. They are produced with minimal regard for realism and legal consultation. The reality is, an EDP with a firearm in their hands is a deadly threat regardless of where the gun is pointed, and any LEO in their right mind is going to find as much cover as they can before they negotiate anything. If they (the LEO) is stuck out in the open, more than likely that EDP is going to be shot before they have a chance to get that lucky shot off and possibly kill the cop. And the whole "shoot the gun out of their hand" is not something anyone in any LE agency ever trains for. LE is trained to end the threat, and when using a firearm, they are trained to aim for center mass, or for possibly a head shot if the suspect is wearing armor. The whole "shoot them in the hand, arm, leg" thing is fantasy. |
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A. As been repeatedly stated, TV is all about creating as much drama to keep the watcher invested. B. If it's to the point of SWAT being called out, they aren't going to just go barging in without some sort of driving force. There are a whole lot of options that we bring to handle barricaded suspects to reduce the danger to everyone. Making entry is the last thing we are going to do if they're in there alone. C. Body armor only covers so much. There is still plenty of vital areas that aren't protected. If you find yourself standing in front of a suspect that has demonstrated their ability to commit violence and is armed, you damn sure aren't going to stand there and talk it out. |
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Are you serious Clark? First, most people can’t predict where their intended shot will go. You think a person on the other side of the muzzle will? Second, let’s assume they could predict that they’re pointing directly where there is Kevlar and ceramic plates. What about the next umpteen shots? Third, not many actually have or wear full body armor. It’s heavy and bulky and cumbersome. Plus, in order to move at all, it has gaps. Despite what you see in the movies, there isn’t a “safe” place to be shot. Yes, there are wounds that are more likely to be survivable. But people have lived from being shot in the head, and people have died from being shot in the foot. Finally, it is just stupid writing. Whether the writer is trying to show the character is a sympathetic person or whether they’re trying to push the idea of “you didn’t have to kill them, you should shoot them in the leg” as a real-world solution, who knows. |
| Just because you're wearing body armor that covers your torso doesn't mean that you're still at risk of death or serious physical injury. Lets see how well you'd handle a round to your head or your pelvic girdle. |
*post contains personal opinion only and should not be considered information released in an official capacity*
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Just as a final follow up to this conversation... If I gave you a properly fitted assault vest with level IV plates, and said we have an expert marksman who is going to stand 5' away and shoot you in the chest plate with a 9mm handgun, and there is no way he wont hit his mark... Would you gladly volunteer to get shot? Yea, me neither... Nor would any other cop in his/her right mind. LE wears armor for "just in case" we get shot, no to make us feel invincible and go running into a vulnerable position with the intention of getting shot. |
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Just because there are 5 or 6 guys in full body armor does not mean they are safe. I know of three Swat guys that have been shot in the face/neck by hastily snapped rounds. Swat guys that have their guns pointed at a suspect at close proximity. In one case the suspect had already been hit multiple times and was 'down.' Action beats reaction. If I'm standing in front of you with a gun to my head. And your standing close by with a gun pointed at me, your finger on the trigger and you are trying to negotiate with me. If I decide to. I'm going to shoot you 9 out of 10 times. I don't care how good you think you are. You may get me. But I'm getting you. Literally the only thing that can possibly save the guy negotiating is if he gets lucky with a brain-stem or spinal cord hit. But against someone who moves first, and moves rapidly. Even if you are a high level shooter its going to be luck. Because that person won't be standing static when he decides to move. If you wait for the suspect to move first. You are basically allowing him to attempt to kill you. And you hope he sucks and doesn't. If someone didn't have non-lethal to try (Shotgun beanbag, taser, or 40mm sponge round) in that specific scenario I'd probably suggest giving a verbal command to drop the gun. Then immediately put a round into the shoulder joint. If the gun is held up against the side of their head through the pistol grip/their hand. It really doesn't pay to sit around and hope the guy decides not to try to kill you and wait to react to his action. Even if you survive a gunshot wound you can easily end up permanently paralyzed. Shitting in a colostomy bag bag for the rest of your life. Blinded. Etc. No thanks. I've nearly been killed twice by suicide by cop guys. Guys who committed no other crime but simply decided the easiest way to die would be kill a cop and have his partner return fire and kill them. Also nearly been shot a few time by other felons. I have absolutely 0 sympathy for suicidal/homicidal people. I've plenty of friends that have been shot, some permanently crippled. And know a few guys that have been killed. If you make a mistake. All your buddies/peers are going to watch the video of it. Discuss the mistake you made. And talk about how you got caught slipping/being complacent and how it cost you. They'll have a drink and talk about the good times they had with you. Then they are going to shrug their shoulders and go back to work. I know a lot of people are under the assumption that cops should wait until they are actively taking gunfire to shoot someone. But that's bull. If the situation calls for it shoot fast, shoot first. If you are not capable of that just hope nobody tries to kill you so you can survive. |
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Originally Posted By ICEAGE: Just because there are 5 or 6 guys in full body armor does not mean they are safe. I know of three Swat guys that have been shot in the face/neck by hastily snapped rounds. Swat guys that have their guns pointed at a suspect at close proximity. In one case the suspect had already been hit multiple times and was 'down.' Action beats reaction. If I'm standing in front of you with a gun to my head. And your standing close by with a gun pointed at me, your finger on the trigger and you are trying to negotiate with me. If I decide to. I'm going to shoot you 9 out of 10 times. I don't care how good you think you are. You may get me. But I'm getting you. Literally the only thing that can possibly save the guy negotiating is if he gets lucky with a brain-stem or spinal cord hit. But against someone who moves first, and moves rapidly. Even if you are a high level shooter its going to be luck. Because that person won't be standing static when he decides to move. If you wait for the suspect to move first. You are basically allowing him to attempt to kill you. And you hope he sucks and doesn't. If someone didn't have non-lethal to try (Shotgun beanbag, taser, or 40mm sponge round) in that specific scenario I'd probably suggest giving a verbal command to drop the gun. Then immediately put a round into the shoulder joint. If the gun is held up against the side of their head through the pistol grip/their hand. It really doesn't pay to sit around and hope the guy decides not to try to kill you and wait to react to his action. Even if you survive a gunshot wound you can easily end up permanently paralyzed. Shitting in a colostomy bag bag for the rest of your life. Blinded. Etc. No thanks. I've nearly been killed twice by suicide by cop guys. Guys who committed no other crime but simply decided the easiest way to die would be kill a cop and have his partner return fire and kill them. Also nearly been shot a few time by other felons. I have absolutely 0 sympathy for suicidal/homicidal people. I've plenty of friends that have been shot, some permanently crippled. And know a few guys that have been killed. If you make a mistake. All your buddies/peers are going to watch the video of it. Discuss the mistake you made. And talk about how you got caught slipping/being complacent and how it cost you. They'll have a drink and talk about the good times they had with you. Then they are going to shrug their shoulders and go back to work. I know a lot of people are under the assumption that cops should wait until they are actively taking gunfire to shoot someone. But that's bull. If the situation calls for it shoot fast, shoot first. If you are not capable of that just hope nobody tries to kill you so you can survive. Lots of truth in this post. This was before my time on the SWAT team, we had one guy get shot in the face with a shotgun. Luckily, he only caught part of it, from a distance and it was birdshot. We got ballistic masks after that. 1 freaking mask! We really didn’t have shit for equipment in the 70-s to the mid 90-s, even being a full time team; however, we would shoot your ass, and often. Unless you committed suicide first. |
peach fuzz