How much do you pay for LEOSA qualification? (Page 2 of 2)
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Originally Posted By LenS: Mass is weird. Mass State Police issue the LEOSA instructor certification. I am certified to qualify MA retirees or MA resident retirees and I have done it for retirees for $75.00. I issue the qualification card. MA requires that they have a valid MA LTC ($25/6 yrs for residents, $100/yr for non-residents) and their retired ID issued by the department they retired from. I supply targets, range, and qualification card. I moved to NH and can still qualify MA retirees or MA residents (regardless of where they retired from) at the NH gun club I belong to. However, NH is also weird. Only active LEOs can run a LEOSA qualification and departments don't want retirees from other departments using their ranges for "liability reasons". The day that a NH LEO retires, s/he loses their POST certification and can no longer teach this (I confirmed this with one of our detectives). I go to MA and pay a retired Mass State Police trooper $75 each year to qualify me. I don't think that my former department would ever qualify a retiree and it would be a 3 hr RT drive if they did. My in laws are in NH and MA. I agree they're weird.   I have LEOSA since I am not retired but my agency isn't backing us currently either. We need to work on that at the state level I believe. |
Every normal man, at times, must be tempted to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
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My organization (Federal) specifically prohibits its FIs from conducting LEOSA quals for retired sworn personnel. In California it’s been particularly problematic for our folks since many of them will not qualify anyone other than their own people. In Arizona, DPS runs the LEOSA program and charges $20/year for their qual card. They provide a statewide list of certified LEOSA instructors so the onus is on the retired LEO to find someone; what they charge is up to them… I’m fortunate that I’ve known my local instructor for years and he completes the qual/paperwork for no charge. That being said in addition to my EDC I also carry: Retirement badge and credentials Organization/Agency specific LEOSA card which specifically states it MUST be accompanied by a state issued LEOSA qualification card AZ State LEOSA qual card issued by DPS AZ State CCW (Retired LEO) professional liability insurance policy …add in the reality of a post self defense shooting scenario and the proper liability coverage and/or umbrella insurance policy is probably both the most overlooked and important out of anything. |
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Originally Posted By MikeWhiskey: That is an unbelievably bad idea…and would be raw meat to a prosecutor, etc. in the event of a use of force… I had a real jackass in my organization refuse to qualify with the rest of the proles and stated he was “self qualifying”. While the local feckless management had nothing to say about it since they were bros and all, our organizational HQ had a fit and made the mistake of thinking that would not have to be said…so they did a policy update and said it; No. You can’t qualify yourself… Subsequently when he did have to qualify with the ilk (I was the FI) his excuse for his less than perfect score that he allegedly always got was: “Ever since I’ve been accused in court of being a trained killer, I won’t shoot a perfect score anymore.” You can’t make that shit up…and I’m sure everyone has at least one of these kind of jokers in their own organization. I hate to say it, but I remember NYPD range instructors telling us not to shoot perfect qualification scores because, in the event of an officer-involved shooting, if you hit a bad guy between the eyes, defense or plaintiff’s counsel would try to characterize it as a deliberate execution rather than a split-second use of force decision. The instructors used to explain that shootings occurring under adrenaline-filled, rapidly evolving conditions are subject to significant deterioration in accuracy, perception, and shot placement. They emphasized that the objective was to stop the threat, not to make precision “kill shots,” which is why center-mass training was always stressed as the highest-probability target area under stress. Ironically, agencies simultaneously wanted officers to be highly competent shooters because misses and stray rounds create enormous liability as well, particularly in urban environments. There was always a tension between tactical proficiency and concern over how prosecutors, juries, or civil counsel might later interpret unusually precise shot placement. My current qualifying agency has moved away from that older qualification culture entirely. They no longer score qualifications numerically and instead use a simple pass/fail standard. They also no longer distinguish between semi-automatic pistol and revolver qualifications, which reflects how much firearms training philosophy and equipment standards have changed over the years. |
Ad Lucem: Towards Light
This information is a general statement of law and procedure and not a substitute for specific legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.
This information is a general statement of law and procedure and not a substitute for specific legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.
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Originally Posted By AdLucem: I hate to say it, but I remember NYPD range instructors telling us not to shoot perfect qualification scores because, in the event of an officer-involved shooting, if you hit a bad guy between the eyes, defense or plaintiff’s counsel would try to characterize it as a deliberate execution rather than a split-second use of force decision. The instructors used to explain that shootings occurring under adrenaline-filled, rapidly evolving conditions are subject to significant deterioration in accuracy, perception, and shot placement. They emphasized that the objective was to stop the threat, not to make precision “kill shots,” which is why center-mass training was always stressed as the highest-probability target area under stress. Ironically, agencies simultaneously wanted officers to be highly competent shooters because misses and stray rounds create enormous liability as well, particularly in urban environments. There was always a tension between tactical proficiency and concern over how prosecutors, juries, or civil counsel might later interpret unusually precise shot placement. My current qualifying agency has moved away from that older qualification culture entirely. They no longer score qualifications numerically and instead use a simple pass/fail standard. They also no longer distinguish between semi-automatic pistol and revolver qualifications, which reflects how much firearms training philosophy and equipment standards have changed over the years. No…I get that…but anyone trained to an extremely high standard (which is the minority of LEOs) is going to demonstrate a higher level of marksmanship anyway, and as you said, you’re accountable for EVERY round that you fire, including and especially the ones that miss. Qualifications/“standards” have changed dramatically over the last 3 decades I’ve been around and more often than not to allow for folks that wouldn’t otherwise qualify which is both a disservice to them and the community they serve, but we all already know that. On a similar note, you should see/hear the conversations I’ve had about anchor shots, particularly in an active shooter environment. People lose there minds but if you “hold what you got” and there’s other assholes running around killing kids and asshole #1 is still a threat, sometimes you just have to do the needful and deal with the consequences later. I’m a use of force instructor so I’ve had students what if every possible scenario to death and if you know the law, the Constitution, the reasonable officer standard and your agency’s policies AND can articulate the fuck out of them, you’ll do well post critical incident…depending on where you currently reside of course, which should be ZERO difference but here we are… |
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Originally Posted By 13gunbunny: Is there actually a "card" you have to carry? I have my retired ID and qualify annually with my old PD. they have my qual on record should ever need it. Yes, we get a retiree LEOSA card that lists the weapons type qualified on and other firearms information |
*post contains personal opinion only and should not be considered information released in an official capacity*
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Originally Posted By MikeWhiskey:
That is an unbelievably bad idea…and would be raw meat to a prosecutor, etc. in the event of a use of force… I had a real jackass in my organization refuse to qualify with the rest of the proles and stated he was “self qualifying”. While the local feckless management had nothing to say about it since they were bros and all, our organizational HQ had a fit and made the mistake of thinking that would not have to be said…so they did a policy update and said it; No. You can’t qualify yourself… Subsequently when he did have to qualify with the ilk (I was the FI) his excuse for his less than perfect score that he allegedly always got was: “Ever since I’ve been accused in court of being a trained killer, I won’t shoot a perfect score anymore.” You can’t make that shit up…and I’m sure everyone has at least one of these kind of jokers in their own organization. My Dept does not qualify under LEOSA, so I have my Dept ID, my CCW permit, and Constitutional Carry as my documentation. Three more range days, (yearly), and I am retired. We get a retired ID, but it doesn't mean a damn thing. |
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My agency refused to issued retired credentials. My local sheriff issues lifetime CCW permits to retired LE that states LEOSA is in affect. I qualify to my state's law enforcement standards 1x a year due to my current retirement job (security) I wish the states would get off their ass and issue retired ID cards to officers instead of having to rely on chickensh&t departments to do it. |
| If anything this thread demonstrates that laws/rules/regulations/standards are all over the place, which isn’t really surprising. What does suck for some folks is their agency’s failure you take care of them post-retirement and how that can become an issue while traveling, moving/relocating/etc. It’s easy to not care if it’s not happening to you but I definitely feel for folks that aren’t able to enjoy the benefits of it. That being said I’m a huge proponent of (retired) professional liability insurance and/or an umbrella insurance policy on your house; post shooting is NOT the time to figure out you need it… |
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You can get qualified pretty much anywhere. The bigger issue for those who are not technically "retired" but meet the years requirement for LEOSA is getting the old agency to issue a retired ID card of some sort. I don't even know anybody at my old agency anymore. We're all old or dead. I can't imagine the new female black chief would be all that excited about issuing a retired ID card to some old white guy who comes wandering in to ask. I meet all the requirements, but there is nothing in the law forcing departments to issue an ID. My state, Georgia, won't even issue the qualification card without the ID or a letter from the agency, even though POST, which issues the qualification card, has all of my records (as well as every other retired law enforcement officer's records) https://gapost.org/info-resources-2/retired-credentials/ Oh . . . wait. It looks like they changed it. I haven't looked at this for several years . . . I need to look at this more closely then apply. |
| I've had my LEOSA card for the last 18 or so years. I retired from NYPD and have my ID card, then I had to get a letter from my agency, which NYPD supplied. I have a buddy who qualifies me here in Arizona every year, we do the state "police officer standard training". 50 rounds, mostly from 15y and in, and a lot of fail safe drills. One year another guy from the same agency filled in, he made us run and do push ups during the shooting qualification. After we qualify we have to send in for a laminated card $20 from the state, but actually the filled out certification from the instructor is all you need to be legal. No where is it written in the law that you need a card from the state. |
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Originally Posted By Genin: When I qualified in Oregon it was $50. In Washington state it was $45 per firearm until I found an agency that does it for free as a benefit for retired officers. There does not seem to be a requirement to carry the firearm that you qualified with so why pay for multiple firearms? |
| I will not charge a retiree. They get their own ID card and all I provide is the qual sheet. My agency provides the target. The retiree provides his own ammo. We have scheduled range days through our Sheriff's Dept. where most of them come out to qualify with the Specials and Court Officers. At those range days you get checked out by whatever instructor is running the show. We have started taking turns on that role. If I need to arrange a time then I use our department's range since I am an instructor there. |
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Originally Posted By urbanredneck: There does not seem to be a requirement to carry the firearm that you qualified with so why pay for multiple firearms? |
*post contains personal opinion only and should not be considered information released in an official capacity*
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| ALEA does the retirees qualification course for retired Troopers, and for out of state retirees now living in AL. The instructor is an active duty Trooper, and travels all over the state to different regions during the year. Mine is due this month, so I'll need to call him and see when he's going to be around my area again. There is no charge, bring your own ammo. I'm going to take a .357 wheel gun and a 9mm this time, just for grins and giggles. |
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Leosa requires you to carry both your retired ID and proof of qualification within the last year. Anything else added is state or local nonsense that I would not worry about if you are carrying, it is just hassle factor for those trying to get qual’d. If your agency does not issue retired ID, then this is 100% the sort of stuff a union should be dealing with. My old agency plays by the actual HR218 rules- you served at least 10 years, so you can get retired ID and can do the Leosa qual. It is really simple when you don’t add chickenshit local politics to it. |
a loaded gun won’t set you free, so you say…