Posted: 12/28/2025 10:17:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TurkeyLeg][Edited]
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Hey, Im a new runner (only about 6 months -- last few months have been 90-100 miles a month for mileage). Im 46 years old and a type 2 diabetic. Im getting into longer runs and Ive found that somewhere between 9 and 11 miles im really struggling with energy / strength. I feel like the cardio/breathing is fine, but my legs get "heavy" around that 1 hr 45 min point. Maybe its just that im not quite there, but maybe fueling mid-run is the answer. Right now, the only thing ive done is a zero carb electrolyte type gel at the 10k mark, around 55-58 minutes in. No change there, but I didnt really expect much with a lack of carbs. As a diabetic, im reluctant to take in carbs without a good reason, BUT my blood sugar is under control (last A1C was 5.2) and im pretty sure I can take in 40-50 carbs while running and not have my blood sugar spike over 180 mg/dl. I guess my question is this: does carb fueling become part of your runs for half marathon distances? If so, is it a significant boost for you? I have 3 months of training left before my first race and Id like to start fueling properly in long runs if it will help. |
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My primary experience in long punishing exercise is in cycling. Look into Hammergel. Check out the ingredients. I used to go out with a group of guys for 5+ hour hammer sessions. A glop of Hammergel and a good swig of water every 45 minutes saved me from bonking. |
"The beginning of freedom from anger is stillness of the mouth when the heart is troubled"- Saint John Climacus
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I generally will use gels if I’m going to be running further than 12 miles. 12 isn’t any sort of magic number, but it’s about where I will start to feel it if I haven’t been fueling. When I do use gels, I try to take one every 4 miles or so. So if I’m running a half marathon, I’d use 3 during the race. I’ll also eat something small like a honey stinger waffle 15 minutes or so before a race or long Saturday run. I will of course adjust as needed for heat/humidity and exertion level. I used Gu gels for several years and they worked fine, but switched to Crank Sports E-Gels last spring and was really surprised that I could actually feel a difference during and after a run. They are more expensive, but it seems like they are worth the extra cost. The type 2 diabetes in your case definitely adds a wrinkle. It is probably worth asking your doctor or a sports nutritionist to see what might work best for your situation. For reference, I am 51 and have run for general health and fitness since 2008. I started running long distances in 2022, and have maintained 1600 miles per year since then. I’ve done 7 marathons and 12 half marathons since late 2022. There are several guys on here that make me look like a piker. |
On the day shift at the Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
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Originally Posted By erud: I generally will use gels if I'm going to be running further than 12 miles. 12 isn't any sort of magic number, but it's about where I will start to feel it if I haven't been fueling. When I do use gels, I try to take one every 4 miles or so. So if I'm running a half marathon, I'd use 3 during the race. I'll also eat something small like a honey stinger waffle 15 minutes or so before a race or long Saturday run. I will of course adjust as needed for heat/humidity and exertion level. I used Gu gels for several years and they worked fine, but switched to Crank Sports E-Gels last spring and was really surprised that I could actually feel a difference during and after a run. They are more expensive, but it seems like they are worth the extra cost. The type 2 diabetes in your case definitely adds a wrinkle. It is probably worth asking your doctor or a sports nutritionist to see what might work best for your situation. For reference, I am 51 and have run for general health and fitness since 2008. I started running long distances in 2022, and have maintained 1600 miles per year since then. I've done 7 marathons and 12 half marathons since late 2022. There are several guys on here that make me look like a piker. I pushed myself one day to do 13.1 for the first time when I shouldnt have. My legs were heavy from the first mile and my hips and quads hurt by the 5k point, but I stupidly pushed on "because it was long run day and I want to know if I can finish a half marathon distance". I was completely trashed for a day and a half afterwards. I also had Achilles tendon pain for 4 weeks after that due to my shoes (Clifton 10's) not being ideal for me. New shoes (Novablast 5's) and more long runs have me feeling good about 2 hrs after I finish a 10 miler, but 11-12 miles seems to be that hard line for me where I have to feel GOOD going into the run or Im really going to pay for it that afternoon and evening. I have reached the point where I can run 8 or so miles in the morning and then lift for an hr in the evening. Thats a huge improvement from where I started. I hope gels or snacks or drinks help me recover sooner. If not, I guess it just means I need more training and that Im still over-reaching. |
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I gel for runs of 6 miles or over, and then every 30 minutes. I'm only a half-marathoner, though. Have you tried a test run, where you test your glucose levels at about 30 minutes in and if appropriate, take a gel, then test again shortly thereafter? Repeat as necessary Also, check in with your doctor You should build your distance up gradually. The best info I have seen indicates no more that 10% increases. For example, my maintenance long runs are 6 miles. About 90s out from a half-marathon I'll add a half mile for two weeks, then another half mile and so on. So it looks like this; Week 1- 6 Miles Week 2-6.5 miles Week 3-6.5 Miles Week 4-7 miles Week 5-7 miles Week 6-7.5 miles Etc. You should also be strength training for running. Squats, Bulgarian Split Squats, barbell split squats, calf raises, seated calf raises, leg extensions (I do these unilaterally), hamstring curls (unilateral), and some type of hip flexor work. I use mini-bands and do 2 minutes of lateral walks, double banded, and 2 minutes of double banded monster walks. These were all programmed by my Sports Pyhsical Therapist after I developed Planters Fasciitis early this year. And finally, work on speed on your shorter runs, I try to keep my long runs to a slower pace and focus on heart rate, no higher than zone 3 |
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My CGM reads somewhat funny when I run, depending on outside temps, whether its covered with a shirt sleeve or not, and how long the run is. It drops out around an hour into alot of long runs, so im going to have to plan a finger stick on my next long run. That will be a little weird, but easy enough. Also, im not entirely sure if current glucose level is especially relevant to current glycogen absorption when the body is under significant stress. Its a rabbit hole I need to venture down, because Ive always heard that the body doesnt depend on insulin as much during exercise. Therefore, I have lots of questions about what an elevated glucose reading really means to someone like me, who is not as insulin resistant as your "statistically typical" T2 diabetic. Lets face it, lots of T2 people get in to exercise, but I dont know how many take up running or any other kind of intense cardio. Basically, im not sure if there is much data to draw on. As for my other exercise, I lift every other night for an hr. Chest and arms and a little legs on night A. Core, back, legs and a little arm work on night B. Then repeat, over and over. 162 workouts since I started in Feb. The leg stuff has been somewhat varied -- currently squats, calf raises, leg extensions, hamstring curls and lots of stretches for my feet like deficit calf raises with just body weight every day. Occasional planks or whatever. I also just bought a Peloton to replace my crappy recumbent bike i wore out. Essentially, im trying to stay well rounded, but its a learning process. I ran into some fatigue issues a while back that Ive mostly been able to correct by proper recovery timing and better sleep. |
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Originally Posted By TurkeyLeg: Thanks for the feedback. Do you notice that you feel better in the hours after the run when you fuel? Originally Posted By TurkeyLeg: Thanks for the feedback. Do you notice that you feel better in the hours after the run when you fuel? That’s a little tough to answer, because it’s just my routine for long runs. With occasional exceptions, if I’m running over 12 miles I’m fueling, if I’m running shorter than that I’m not. I’d say yes though, generally speaking. Originally Posted By TurkeyLeg:I pushed myself one day to do 13.1 for the first time when I shouldnt have. My legs were heavy from the first mile and my hips and quads hurt by the 5k point, but I stupidly pushed on "because it was long run day and I want to know if I can finish a half marathon distance". I was completely trashed for a day and a half afterwards. I also had Achilles tendon pain for 4 weeks after that due to my shoes (Clifton 10's) not being ideal for me. New shoes (Novablast 5's) and more long runs have me feeling good about 2 hrs after I finish a 10 miler, but 11-12 miles seems to be that hard line for me where I have to feel GOOD going into the run or Im really going to pay for it that afternoon and evening. I have reached the point where I can run 8 or so miles in the morning and then lift for an hr in the evening. Thats a huge improvement from where I started. I hope gels or snacks or drinks help me recover sooner. If not, I guess it just means I need more training and that Im still over-reaching. They will probably help a bit, but likely not a profound change. I think the biggest thing is just conditioning and getting your legs, heart, and lungs up to the task. The more miles you run, the easier it gets. The way I feel after a 15 or 20 mile run now vs how I felt after one 3 years ago is a night and day difference. I’m normally fine and ready to do whatever after lunch on my long run days. A full marathon at max effort will have me sore for a couple/few days after, but anything short of that I generally feel fine immediately afterwards. I never would have thought that I’d be able to say that. You will get to that point if you want to and continue with what you’re doing. You are already running distances that most people in the history of the world will never dream of; 13.1 miles is no joke. Be proud of that, and keep us posted on your progress! |
On the day shift at the Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
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Alright, I'm kinda addressing multiple, layered things all at once here. This might seem to wander a bit, but stick with me it'll come together by the end (somewhat simplified, yes I'm leaving out some nuance): Newbie runner, T2 diabetic. Both of these are playing into the issues you're having. Though with that A1C this last one may not be as big of a factor. Naturally, in a person with a healthy metabolism (granted not many of these are actually out there these days) that person will pretty much always burn a blend of carbs and fats for energy. When at rest this should skew almost entirely towards fats (carbs being used for those few cell types that don't have mitochondria to process fats, think blood cells and some others), while at peak high-intensity efforts this will skew towards almost 100% carbs. Fats are preferred fuels for these lower intensity efforts, but they do require oxygen to process. There's no such need for oxygen to process carbs. So when your effort level needs a high enough level of energy your body switches more towards burning carbs because you literally can't take in enough oxygen to process all the energy it needs from fats. Most people's diets are very, very heavily skewed towards getting their energy sources from carbs, not fats. Carbs have to be processed first because it's essentially toxic to have a bunch of excess sugar floating around the body. Side question: What's your diet like? So, with that out of the way: Right now your body is likely used to processing carbs rather than fats for energy even for lower-intensity tasks, which you eventually run out of. I dealt with much the same when I first started running a decade ago. And like you, I forced a run a couple miles longer than planned just to say I had run a given distance. My body wasn't prepared for this from an energy/metabolism standpoint and I crashed. HARD. Skipping a bit of story, I stumbled upon a low carb, paleo-style diet that eventually fixed some of my own developing metabolic issues. I don't expect you to do this if you aren't already, but a low carb diet will absolutely force your body to remember how to run primarily off fats for most things. Outside of a low carb diet, what I'd recommend specifically during exercise is to go fasted/no energy gels or anything for your shorter, lower-intensity efforts. Based on your posts, for runs that are about 90 minutes or shorter. Rides might could go a bit longer since the bike takes some of the load/effort off your body since it supports your weight. For those longer runs/rides when you might run into issues, I'd take a gel a bit earlier than you currently are. Maybe around 45 minutes. This will give the gel more time to digest, be absorbed, and the energy to make its way around your bloodstream before you get to that historical "legs are heavy" point. If you're going to be out more than 2 hours, maybe take another gel around the 90 minute mark. The point is to give your body the energy source it needs well before you feel that need - because once you get to the point that you feel it you're already in a hole and it's very difficult to climb out of that. Bringing things together, over time your body will re-learn how to better use fats for fuel (read: develop the muscular mitochondria to process enough of it again) and you'll be able to run further and further (also at higher intensities) without needing so much in the way of gels. When I was specifically doing a low carb approach training for ultras I'd run 18-20 miles every weekend and could do it easily without any fuel before or during - literally no calories since supper the night before. Feel free to run this by a sports nutritionist or someone else who deals with nutrition/fueling for athletes. Unfortunately, most run-of-the-mill doctors or nutritionists really have no idea about anything when it comes to sports performance. |
Fear not the weapon, but rather the hand which wields it.
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Originally Posted By Commander_Keen: Alright, I'm kinda addressing multiple, layered things all at once here. This might seem to wander a bit, but stick with me it'll come together by the end (somewhat simplified, yes I'm leaving out some nuance): Newbie runner, T2 diabetic. Both of these are playing into the issues you're having. Though with that A1C this last one may not be as big of a factor. Naturally, in a person with a healthy metabolism (granted not many of these are actually out there these days) that person will pretty much always burn a blend of carbs and fats for energy. When at rest this should skew almost entirely towards fats (carbs being used for those few cell types that don't have mitochondria to process fats, think blood cells and some others), while at peak high-intensity efforts this will skew towards almost 100% carbs. Fats are preferred fuels for these lower intensity efforts, but they do require oxygen to process. There's no such need for oxygen to process carbs. So when your effort level needs a high enough level of energy your body switches more towards burning carbs because you literally can't take in enough oxygen to process all the energy it needs from fats. Most people's diets are very, very heavily skewed towards getting their energy sources from carbs, not fats. Carbs have to be processed first because it's essentially toxic to have a bunch of excess sugar floating around the body. Side question: What's your diet like? So, with that out of the way: Right now your body is likely used to processing carbs rather than fats for energy even for lower-intensity tasks, which you eventually run out of. I dealt with much the same when I first started running a decade ago. And like you, I forced a run a couple miles longer than planned just to say I had run a given distance. My body wasn't prepared for this from an energy/metabolism standpoint and I crashed. HARD. Skipping a bit of story, I stumbled upon a low carb, paleo-style diet that eventually fixed some of my own developing metabolic issues. I don't expect you to do this if you aren't already, but a low carb diet will absolutely force your body to remember how to run primarily off fats for most things. Outside of a low carb diet, what I'd recommend specifically during exercise is to go fasted/no energy gels or anything for your shorter, lower-intensity efforts. Based on your posts, for runs that are about 90 minutes or shorter. Rides might could go a bit longer since the bike takes some of the load/effort off your body since it supports your weight. For those longer runs/rides when you might run into issues, I'd take a gel a bit earlier than you currently are. Maybe around 45 minutes. This will give the gel more time to digest, be absorbed, and the energy to make its way around your bloodstream before you get to that historical "legs are heavy" point. If you're going to be out more than 2 hours, maybe take another gel around the 90 minute mark. The point is to give your body the energy source it needs well before you feel that need - because once you get to the point that you feel it you're already in a hole and it's very difficult to climb out of that. Bringing things together, over time your body will re-learn how to better use fats for fuel (read: develop the muscular mitochondria to process enough of it again) and you'll be able to run further and further (also at higher intensities) without needing so much in the way of gels. When I was specifically doing a low carb approach training for ultras I'd run 18-20 miles every weekend and could do it easily without any fuel before or during - literally no calories since supper the night before. Feel free to run this by a sports nutritionist or someone else who deals with nutrition/fueling for athletes. Unfortunately, most run-of-the-mill doctors or nutritionists really have no idea about anything when it comes to sports performance. To answer your diet question, i would describe my diet as "quasi-low carb". By that, I mean I am eating in a way similar to most newly-diagnosed T2's. My diagnosis was Jan 7th of this year. A1C at that time was 12.2 and I was 230 lbs, 5'9". I immediately shifted my diet and started walking every day. Then lifting. Then the recumbent bike. Now its just run, lift, Peloton. Anyway, my diet normally breaks down roughly this way: 125 grams net carbs 250-270 protein 60-80 fat The reason I say this is typical for a T2 is because most of us are trying to find that sweet spot where the diet is sufficient to live with forever. I did keto for 8 months about a decade ago and even then I knew I couldnt have stayed on it for the rest of my life. Having a few extra carbs allows me to eat lots of things like high fiber breads and pastas, more fruits, and plenty of keto-minded cereals, snacks, sweets, etc... Basically, its an ultra sustainable diet. While Im on maintenance calories for a few months now, I was at a decent deficit for a long time. Therefore, im mindful of the fats because they just cut in to the volume of food i can eat (satiety being the easiest way to stay on track). My lunch and dinner are healthy. Protein/veggie/greek yogurt with fruit combos typically. No problems there, but ive got some bad habits too. I eat too many protein bars because they taste great and dont spike my glucose. Ill eat a couple of them and one tumbler of coffee each day for breakfast during the week. Then another bar or two after dinner for a "desert". Not ideal (and not cheap) but they take care of my sweet tooth. Healthy breakfasts on the weekend, however. Also, im a caffiene addict, for sure. I drink a Celsius every day before I run. Add that to my coffee and Im pretty sure im at 400 mg daily. Day in and day out. So, i am probably not very fat-adapted, as I never come close to ketosis anymore. I considered fasting, but I honestly dont know if I can shift to a narrower eating window without going crazy. Ill have to try to find out. I do have some lower carb gels ill try on my next 90+ minute run. I think they have 18-20 carbs, so I can ease in to it. Maybe try 2 at a time later if they dont spike my sugar into an unacceptable range. Regardless, from reading what youve said, it sounds like just getting fitter will go farther than any gel would, especially for slower runs. |
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So, I went out today for a long run with some gels. I was planning on doing 10 or 11 easy miles. I had plenty of rest this week, good HRV (if you put value in that sort of thing) and I did not run yesterday. However, I did do my leg split yesterday, with squats, leg extensions, calf raises and some stretching. Also some back and shoulder work. Id say it was pretty good effort, maybe an 8 out of 10. That was stupid. I knew when I woke up that it was going to be a little bit of a struggle. I did some stretches before I drove to the park to run and I could feel the stiffness and the lack of energy right then. I felt slow and tired. I was running at a pace that was a full minute and a half slower per mile than my 10k pace but it felt like I was giving it way more effort than I normally do for the splits I was getting. Lots of hills, all trail running, so I knew in the first ten minutes it was going to take me an hour and 45 minutes to do ten miles at the rate I was moving. I tried a gel at 45 minutes just to give it a go. I used this one: amazon.com/dp/B0FFPC3GHJ?ref_=ppx_hzsearch_conn_dt_b_fed_asin_title_1 Jesus, that stuff was super thick. It had the consistency of cold honey (makes sense). I had it in a belt around my waist under my shirt so it was slightly warm to the touch, even though it was 38 degrees out. Still thick, kind of hard to get down. It only had 18 carbs, which was how I planned on starting out. I didnt feel much of a change from taking it, but it didnt spike my blood sugar much either. I had a banana, a protein bar and a Celsius on my way to the park, which did raise my blood sugar about 30 mg/dl. That is pretty typical for me for any sugars around breakfast time (its called the dawn phenomenon, lots of diabetics are familiar with it). The reality is that the banana was probably only worth 15mg/dl of spike, the rest was my typical morning glucose rise. Anywho, Im just posting this in case another person who tracks blood sugar sees it and can get something out of it. Lessons learned: 1.) Carbs dont fix sore and tired muscles, even if you are well rested.  2.) 18 carbs had a neglible effect at that point of my run, in my current condition and ability. 3.) I need to try these gels before I get out and run with them because I was not expecting that stuff to be so thick. 4.) A shitty run is better than no run at all. 5.) Ive done a pretty deep dive and there is next to nothing out there about diabetics who do moderate to heavy cardio fueling with carbs. The diabetic nutritionists cater their advice to people who either wont exercise or cant (that makes sense, those people need clear instruction). The sports nutritionists cater their advice to people who dont have insulin issues (also rightfully so). Im going to be my own guinea pig on this one and dial it in through trial and error. |
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Originally Posted By TurkeyLeg: So, I went out today for a long run with some gels. I was planning on doing 10 or 11 easy miles. I had plenty of rest this week, good HRV (if you put value in that sort of thing) and I did not run yesterday. However, I did do my leg split yesterday, with squats, leg extensions, calf raises and some stretching. Also some back and shoulder work. Id say it was pretty good effort, maybe an 8 out of 10. That was stupid. I knew when I woke up that it was going to be a little bit of a struggle. I did some stretches before I drove to the park to run and I could feel the stiffness and the lack of energy right then. I felt slow and tired. I was running at a pace that was a full minute and a half slower per mile than my 10k pace but it felt like I was giving it way more effort than I normally do for the splits I was getting. Lots of hills, all trail running, so I knew in the first ten minutes it was going to take me an hour and 45 minutes to do ten miles at the rate I was moving. I tried a gel at 45 minutes just to give it a go. I used this one: amazon.com/dp/B0FFPC3GHJ?ref_=ppx_hzsearch_conn_dt_b_fed_asin_title_1 Jesus, that stuff was super thick. It had the consistency of cold honey (makes sense). I had it in a belt around my waist under my shirt so it was slightly warm to the touch, even though it was 38 degrees out. Still thick, kind of hard to get down. It only had 18 carbs, which was how I planned on starting out. I didnt feel much of a change from taking it, but it didnt spike my blood sugar much either. I had a banana, a protein bar and a Celsius on my way to the park, which did raise my blood sugar about 30 mg/dl. That is pretty typical for me for any sugars around breakfast time (its called the dawn phenomenon, lots of diabetics are familiar with it). The reality is that the banana was probably only worth 15mg/dl of spike, the rest was my typical morning glucose rise. Anywho, Im just posting this in case another person who tracks blood sugar sees it and can get something out of it. Lessons learned: 1.) Carbs dont fix sore and tired muscles, even if you are well rested. 2.) 18 carbs had a neglible effect at that point of my run, in my current condition and ability. 3.) I need to try these gels before I get out and run with them because I was not expecting that stuff to be so thick. 4.) A shitty run is better than no run at all. 5.) Ive done a pretty deep dive and there is next to nothing out there about diabetics who do moderate to heavy cardio fueling with carbs. The diabetic nutritionists cater their advice to people who either wont exercise or cant (that makes sense, those people need clear instruction). The sports nutritionists cater their advice to people who dont have insulin issues (also rightfully so). Im going to be my own guinea pig on this one and dial it in through trial and error. Good on you for finishing. Like you, I was doing heavy squats, calf raises, step downs and leg extensions the night before my long runs. I learned too, that I need to do those two days before. I also tried several gels at home while working to make sure the sat well on my stomach. I find that the Maurten Gels work great for me. I use the 100s, with 25 grams of carb. Maurten 100 They also have a 160, which has 40 grams of carbs. I avoid the ones with caffeine. I don't avoid caffeine, I just avoid it immediately before or during a run. I only did 7 miles today |
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Originally Posted By txinvestigator: Good on you for finishing. Like you, I was doing heavy squats, calf raises, step downs and leg extensions the night before my long runs. I learned too, that I need to do those two days before. I also tried several gels at home while working to make sure the sat well on my stomach. I find that the Maurten Gels work great for me. I use the 100s, with 25 grams of carb. Maurten 100 They also have a 160, which has 40 grams of carbs. I avoid the ones with caffeine. I don't avoid caffeine, I just avoid it immediately before or during a run. I only did 7 miles today I honestly need to work on avoiding the caffeine before running, too. The number of times I have to hit the porta potty to pee is ridiculous on some long run days. If I run without caffeine, Im GTG on that front. Id hate to lose 3 minutes at my first race because I have to pee three times in 13 miles. |
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Originally Posted By TurkeyLeg: So, I went out today for a long run with some gels. I was planning on doing 10 or 11 easy miles. I had plenty of rest this week, good HRV (if you put value in that sort of thing) and I did not run yesterday. However, I did do my leg split yesterday, with squats, leg extensions, calf raises and some stretching. Also some back and shoulder work. Id say it was pretty good effort, maybe an 8 out of 10. That was stupid. It's good that you recognize this. I knew when I woke up that it was going to be a little bit of a struggle. I did some stretches before I drove to the park to run and I could feel the stiffness and the lack of energy right then. I felt slow and tired. I was running at a pace that was a full minute and a half slower per mile than my 10k pace but it felt like I was giving it way more effort than I normally do for the splits I was getting. Really? That's insanely fast. Even on a regular easy day I'm more than 1 min/mi slower than marathon pace - 2.25 min/mi slower than 10k pace. The day after a running and/or lifting workout (I usually try them on the same day) I'll be nearly 3 min/mi slower than 10k pace. Lots of hills, all trail running, so I knew in the first ten minutes it was going to take me an hour and 45 minutes to do ten miles at the rate I was moving. Pace needs to go out the door when running on hills, but especially with trails. Effort-based is best. I tried a gel at 45 minutes just to give it a go. I used this one: amazon.com/dp/B0FFPC3GHJ?ref_=ppx_hzsearch_conn_dt_b_fed_asin_title_1 Jesus, that stuff was super thick. It had the consistency of cold honey (makes sense). I had it in a belt around my waist under my shirt so it was slightly warm to the touch, even though it was 38 degrees out. Still thick, kind of hard to get down. It only had 18 carbs, which was how I planned on starting out. I didnt feel much of a change from taking it, but it didnt spike my blood sugar much either. I had a banana, a protein bar and a Celsius on my way to the park, which did raise my blood sugar about 30 mg/dl. That is pretty typical for me for any sugars around breakfast time (its called the dawn phenomenon, lots of diabetics are familiar with it). The reality is that the banana was probably only worth 15mg/dl of spike, the rest was my typical morning glucose rise. There really wasn't much in the way of carbs there to make an impact, but honestly with that lifting workout the day before you wouldn't have been able to feel much in the way of fueling effect anyway. Some gels are super thick, others watery. The Maurten ones you've picked up are kind of in between and really good. Personally, I like Science in Sport Beta Fuel or Styrkr gels. When it's cold out I'll hold a gel in my hand for 10-15 minutes before using it just to make sure it's not so cold that it doesn't flow well. Anywho, Im just posting this in case another person who tracks blood sugar sees it and can get something out of it. Lessons learned: 1.) Carbs dont fix sore and tired muscles, even if you are well rested. 2.) 18 carbs had a neglible effect at that point of my run, in my current condition and ability. 3.) I need to try these gels before I get out and run with them because I was not expecting that stuff to be so thick. 4.) A shitty run is better than no run at all. 5.) Ive done a pretty deep dive and there is next to nothing out there about diabetics who do moderate to heavy cardio fueling with carbs. The diabetic nutritionists cater their advice to people who either wont exercise or cant (that makes sense, those people need clear instruction). The sports nutritionists cater their advice to people who dont have insulin issues (also rightfully so). Im going to be my own guinea pig on this one and dial it in through trial and error. All 5 of your points and your note after are pretty much spot on. You might go down the Robb Wolf rabbit hole in terms of looking at fueling. While he mostly dealt with crossfit-style workouts, I do know that he has helped diabetics with such things so you might find some resources there. |
Fear not the weapon, but rather the hand which wields it.
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Did a treadmill run this AM to force myself into a slower pace and consistent heart rate. Like most newbies, I have a HUGE aversion to slower running and always end up pushing harder. Today, I set my crappy Chinese treadmill at 5.5 mph (11:00/mile) and left it there for 7 miles. Breakfast was 35 minutes before the run. One medium banana, one David bar, one Paleo Valley venison stick and a Celsius. Thats about 40 gr protein, 25 (refined) carbs, 330 calories and 200mg of caffiene. I was well rested, had a high HRV and a low resting heart rate lately. I have a love/hate relationship with bananas. If im rested and been eating cleanly, they spike my sugar moderately and the spike subsides quickly. If im stressed or fatigued or been eating poorly, they spike glucose highly and it rides high for longer - plateau that persists for 45 minutes or so. Anywho, today the spike was already subsiding when I started running and the exercise drove it down before it started creeping back up to normal and then slightly above. For those who dont track this stuff, strenuous exercise typically causes a moderate climb in blood sugar, at least in diabetics like me (and yes, extended Zone 2 is strenuous by most standards). In this case, it was a minor bump. A 10-13 mile run will get me up in the 120 mg/dl range even without fueling in the middle. Im not sure what the rate and percentage of glucose changeover to glycogen is for someone who is insulin resistant. The possibility exists that the conversion to useful energy is too slow in diabetics to get much gain from carb fueling, but I dont get that feeling. Hence this whole line of inquiry by me about fueling during runs by experienced runners like you guys. Attached File Attached File |
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Originally Posted By TurkeyLeg: Did a treadmill run this AM to force myself into a slower pace and consistent heart rate. Like most newbies, I have a HUGE aversion to slower running and always end up pushing harder. Today, I set my crappy Chinese treadmill at 5.5 mph (11:00/mile) and left it there for 7 miles. Breakfast was 35 minutes before the run. One medium banana, one David bar, one Paleo Valley venison stick and a Celsius. Thats about 40 gr protein, 25 (refined) carbs, 330 calories and 200mg of caffiene. I was well rested, had a high HRV and a low resting heart rate lately. I have a love/hate relationship with bananas. If im rested and been eating cleanly, they spike my sugar moderately and the spike subsides quickly. If im stressed or fatigued or been eating poorly, they spike glucose highly and it rides high for longer - plateau that persists for 45 minutes or so. Anywho, today the spike was already subsiding when I started running and the exercise drove it down before it started creeping back up to normal and then slightly above. For those who dont track this stuff, strenuous exercise typically causes a moderate climb in blood sugar, at least in diabetics like me (and yes, extended Zone 2 is strenuous by most standards). In this case, it was a minor bump. A 10-13 mile run will get me up in the 120 mg/dl range even without fueling in the middle. Im not sure what the rate and percentage of glucose changeover to glycogen is for someone who is insulin resistant. The possibility exists that the conversion to useful energy is too slow in diabetics to get much gain from carb fueling, but I dont get that feeling. Hence this whole line of inquiry by me about fueling during runs by experienced runners like you guys. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/141830/12220_jpg-3690410.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/141830/12224_jpg-3690411.JPG Several years ago I wore a CGM for "fun" and testing (I'm nowhere near diabetic) and also noticed my blood sugar would rise during and even before runs. Literally my body would start dumping glycogen into my bloodstream when I would get dressed in the morning for a run to prepare for the extra activity. Have you ever had a fasting insulin test? Despite your diagnosis of diabetes, based on your A1C I'd be surprised if you really exhibit the classic high fasting insulin that accompanies insulin resistance/diabetes. |
Fear not the weapon, but rather the hand which wields it.
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Originally Posted By Commander_Keen: Several years ago I wore a CGM for "fun" and testing (I'm nowhere near diabetic) and also noticed my blood sugar would rise during and even before runs. Literally my body would start dumping glycogen into my bloodstream when I would get dressed in the morning for a run to prepare for the extra activity. Have you ever had a fasting insulin test? Despite your diagnosis of diabetes, based on your A1C I'd be surprised if you really exhibit the classic high fasting insulin that accompanies insulin resistance/diabetes. I have been very fortunate. While my genetics made me slightly predisposed to T2 diabetes, I never would have developed the disease if I wasnt fat and inactive with a piss-poor diet. Luckily, I was 45 when I was diagnosed and I was so embarassed and ashamed by the diagnosis that I had instant motivation to try to fix myself. As motivation died off (as it always does) it was replaced with solid dedication to keep at it. Again, I am very fortunate that I am physically capable of improving myself and young enough to do it well. So thats what I do. Its part of my life now, like work or family or anything else. And its working (mostly). The point is that most of the diabetic indicators are not present in me anymore, so long as I maintain my current lifestyle. I have no doubt that I could get a new doctor tomorrow and strut into their office and tell them I have no blood sugar issues at all -- and they would believe it. The reality, however, is that I have to stick with my current diet (lowish carb, maintenance or under calories, no fast food or sugary snacks) and exercise levels to do that. When I do that, I wake up in the morning with glucose in the 85-99 range and my mealtime glucose never spikes above 140. When I eat like shit, it will spike. I had a piece of chocolate cake a month ago against my own better judgement and it drove my glucose to 190 and it sat there for an hour or two. That was just one piece of cake that followed a high protein meal. My responses to sugar are still excessive. I hope its not too late to increase my insulin sensitivity and thats what I work at every day. Maybe in a few years I could eat that piece of cake every now and then and it wouldnt be so bad, but Im not there yet. All I can do is keep on with what Im doing. Ive had great success getting to this point and Im willing to accept where I am if it never gets any better. Honestly, yesterday was the one year anniversary of my diagnosis, so Im doing well for the period of time that has elapsed. I guess what Im saying is that Im not as bad off as most diabetics and I would say that high fasting insulin is unlikely to be a pronounced characteristic id exhibit in testing. Nor would I test poorly in most tests compared to other T2's. Im sure I could take an oral glucose test and do better than most other diabetics. I would still "fail" it, but I would definitely be the tallest midget. This is why I think I have potential to experiment with things like fueling on runs. Maybe some day I might even be able to carb load before long runs or races. When my A1C was 12.2, I would not have even considered the idea for a minute, but If I can maintain in the low 5's, Ill try it. |
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I tried the Maurten 100 today. 10 miler at what is a pretty quick pace for me for that distance. Its the goal speed (8:45/mile) Id like to maintain during my first race (a half) in March. I was well rested, had two protein bars and a banana. No energy drink this morning, though I did drink about 10 oz of Mt Dew Zero, which is somewhere around 50 mg of caffeine. I didn't want to have to stop to piss more than once. I'm really trying to wean myself off caffeine for running. I ran the Washington Ditch out to Lake Drummond. If anyone is familiar with that place, its an interesting run. Flat trail, firm ground. A straight line 4.5 miles out to the lake along a ditch and then straight back. Part boring, part Deliverance. I took the gel at the 5 mile mark, which was a little before 45 minutes. I sort of hyper-focused on my legs and whatnot from then on, to see if I noticed anything. It was a strange experience. I didn't feel like I had more energy necessarily, but I was lifting my legs higher at the 6 and 7 mile point than I did at the 5 mile marker. Even though I was tired at mile 9, I decided to throw in an extra mile to see if I could maintain my pace a little longer. At the 9.5 mile point, I decided to give it a little more and I had enough in me to run a little quicker in that last mile than the earlier ones. BTW, the Maurten was also thick, but I carried it in my hand for 10 minutes as suggested and it went down easy enough. I wore a small vest with a bottle of water and my phone in it, so I sipped on the water a small amount too. Overall, I think the carbs may have helped a little. Will have to continue testing to see if its repeatable. Glucose response to the gel was not especially noticeable during the run. I had my usual slow upward slope then a short spike after the run was over. Never went above 150 mg/dl (which is where I set my "range" in my Dexcom app). I would like to run a 13 miler in late Jan or early Feb -- in that one I will take one gel at 45 mins and one at 1:15 and see what the results are then. If my glucose stays below 180 mg/dl during that test, I will do the two gel thing for races or long hard runs as necessary. Probably not for everyday long run stuff. Ill do it often enough to track glucose as my pace, mileage and fitness increase. Attached File Attached File |
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Sounds like things went well. I've never taken a gel and at any point after felt like I had more energy. To me it's more like adding a bit of water to a bucket that's leaking from holes in the bottom - that extra in there will never top it off, but the bucket will take longer to run out now. |
Fear not the weapon, but rather the hand which wields it.
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Originally Posted By TurkeyLeg: Makes sense. Have you ever used a gel with caffiene? For that matter, do you ever consume caffiene, exercising or otherwise? Have ever... lol. Yeah, particularly before races but I'll also do it a couple times for workouts in the buildup. These are my preferred caffeinated gels. For a race I'll usually take one 45-60 minutes before the race (it takes about an hour for caffeine to build up to its maximum in your system). For a 5k or 10k that's all I'll do. For a half marathon I'll take another one maybe 40 minutes into the race. For a marathon I switch between uncaffeinated and caffeinated gels. After the pre-race caffeinated one, my first gel during (maybe 35 minutes in) will be decaf, next will be caffeinated (another 35 or so minutes later). This keeps a steady stream of carbs but also layers in more caffeine at about the same time caffeine levels from the previous gel begin to taper off. No, I've never had heart palpitations or anything else from this. |
Fear not the weapon, but rather the hand which wields it.
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Ive consumed eye watering amounts of caffiene in my younger years and never had any palpitations or even jitters. I keep it under 400mg a day now, but my bigger concern is the diuretic properties of it. Also, im just older now so that doesnt help my bladder either. Im terrified of not hitting my goal time for no reason other than 3 detours to the head.
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Originally Posted By TurkeyLeg: Ive consumed eye watering amounts of caffiene in my younger years and never had any palpitations or even jitters. I keep it under 400mg a day now, but my bigger concern is the diuretic properties of it. Also, im just older now so that doesnt help my bladder either. Im terrified of not hitting my goal time for no reason other than 3 detours to the head. I get that worry, but the only time I've had to pee mid-race was during a 100 miler (when not doing so would actually have been a bad thing). Literally my pre-race goes like this: Pee before leaving the house. Get to the race an hour early, use the port-o-john immediately. Warm-up (maybe just mill around for a marathon). Use the port-o-john (maybe 20-30 minutes before the gun at this point). Immediately get in the line again for the port-o-john, because now there's a big line for them and it'll take too long to get through if I do this later. Especially if it's cold. Cold-induced diuresis is a real thing. |
Fear not the weapon, but rather the hand which wields it.
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Originally Posted By TurkeyLeg: I tried the Maurten 100 today. 10 miler at what is a pretty quick pace for me for that distance. Its the goal speed (8:45/mile) Id like to maintain during my first race (a half) in March. I was well rested, had two protein bars and a banana. No energy drink this morning, though I did drink about 10 oz of Mt Dew Zero, which is somewhere around 50 mg of caffeine. I didn't want to have to stop to piss more than once. I'm really trying to wean myself off caffeine for running. I ran the Washington Ditch out to Lake Drummond. If anyone is familiar with that place, its an interesting run. Flat trail, firm ground. A straight line 4.5 miles out to the lake along a ditch and then straight back. Part boring, part Deliverance. I took the gel at the 5 mile mark, which was a little before 45 minutes. I sort of hyper-focused on my legs and whatnot from then on, to see if I noticed anything. It was a strange experience. I didn't feel like I had more energy necessarily, but I was lifting my legs higher at the 6 and 7 mile point than I did at the 5 mile marker. Even though I was tired at mile 9, I decided to throw in an extra mile to see if I could maintain my pace a little longer. At the 9.5 mile point, I decided to give it a little more and I had enough in me to run a little quicker in that last mile than the earlier ones. BTW, the Maurten was also thick, but I carried it in my hand for 10 minutes as suggested and it went down easy enough. I wore a small vest with a bottle of water and my phone in it, so I sipped on the water a small amount too. Overall, I think the carbs may have helped a little. Will have to continue testing to see if its repeatable. Glucose response to the gel was not especially noticeable during the run. I had my usual slow upward slope then a short spike after the run was over. Never went above 150 mg/dl (which is where I set my "range" in my Dexcom app). I would like to run a 13 miler in late Jan or early Feb -- in that one I will take one gel at 45 mins and one at 1:15 and see what the results are then. If my glucose stays below 180 mg/dl during that test, I will do the two gel thing for races or long hard runs as necessary. Probably not for everyday long run stuff. Ill do it often enough to track glucose as my pace, mileage and fitness increase. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/141830/Screenshot_20260111_203809_Garmin_Connec-3692837.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/141830/Screenshot_20260111_161254_Dexcom_G7_jpg-3692835.JPG That's great. The difference I feel is that my energy level does not deplenish when I take them every half hour as my energy does when I don't I avoid caffeine close to race time because it makes me need to poop |
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So far Im liking the Maurten 100's you suggested. I need to buy a whole box now. I forgot that I bought some Ucan gels a few months ago and stuffed them in the back of the pantry because I hadnt gotten to the point where I could properly test them. They are suppossedly sugar free, but they have carbs. Not sure if they truly work, the reviews out there are mixed. Ill try some of them since I already own them. Still, very happy with the Maurtens and grateful for the suggestion. |
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OK, today I tried the UCan gels. I ran 13.3 miles on trails, got a PB for that distance (not a big deal because Ive only run that far once before). These gels are marketed towards people who want to avoid sugars, but they still claim to support long runs the same way generic sugary gels do. Who knows, i havent done a deep dive. Attached File So, I had my normal long run breakfast -- 2 protien bars, a banana and a Celsius. It was 23 degrees out there, wind chill around zero but not bad on the trails that made up 65 percent of the course that had enough trees to block the wind. Felt strong, no aches today starting out. 7 or 8 out of 10 effort. Attached File Attached File Next to no significant spike. Even the banana didnt hit too hard. The cgm dropped out for a while, not unusual. I took one at 40 minutes and again at 70 and just ran it out. The last mile was hard, very hard, but i pushed and got good time on it. Energy was there up until 11.7-11.9 miles, then i became more aware of the suck. Thats pretty much when I know Ive got 5k left in me, i think. These show promise, ill continue testing with these and the Maurtens. |
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Update. Had a half marathon today. My glucose has been very good lately, but has gone a little haywire during my taper week. My sleep patterns have shifted for the better, but the pre-race anxiety / stress has been real for me. I did not exactly "carb load" but I have eaten in a surplus for the last 4 or 5 days, with one of those days being a huge surplus. I was hungry that day, so I simply ate food until I wasnt. I included foods that matched cravings in that, so there were lots of carbs present from things like low sugar cereal and protein bars. Normal net carbs for me is 150 a day, this was more like 300-400. Race day, normal long run breakfast: A David bar, a Quest Blueberry Cobbler bar and a banana 30 minutes before gun time at 0730. One Celsius at 0500 to get me going. I took a HNY+ gel at 30 minutes (70 cal and 18 carbs) then another around 65 minutes. I ran max effort for this race, 10/10, harder than ive ever run or exercised. Heart rate was within a few points of max at the end, significantly higher than usual throughout the race due to effort. Blood sugar was through the roof for me, as expected. For reference, my daily average is 97-100 these days, diet being the driving force there. I may not have needed the gels, but I wasnt taking a chance that id need them and not have them. I wasnt worried about it either. Id tell any T2 diabetic: dont waste your blood sugar spikes on shitty fast food or liquor, save them for max effort days when they come with something you can be proud of. Im calling this my "max" baseline for running. Easy runs and shorter stuff wont exceed 150 mg/dl. Note how hard the effort spikes it and for how long. The spike before the start of the race is my shower. CGM's typically go apeshit when the interstitial fluid under your skin rises in temp. Its a false positive. Arguably, some of the race spike could be from that as well, as I had a long sleeve shirt on and i was sweating, uh, profusely. There is also some potential mild dehydration involved as well. I was not optimally hydrated going in to the race. Not necessarilly dried out, just not topped off. Thats worth a few points on the glucose scale, every time. Attached File Attached File |
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First, congrats on a great HM time! 1:50 is well faster than most runners will ever run. I'm well behind with this comment, but the UCan gels were originally developed with diabetics in mind - though it's not something they really advertise. The big spike during the race doesn't really surprise me. An effort like that is more intense than what you can fuel using fats and so the body releases glycogen to meet the need. Unless a person is completely broken metabolically and they just can't cover the distance/time involved without crashing (which obviously isn't you), there's no *physiological* need for carbs during a race. The body does have an (unfortunate for us) mechanism in which it regulates effort/output so as to not completely run yourself out of fuel, however. Taking a gel during a race tells your body you're not going to die for lack of fuel and so you can keep up the effort, though, and gets around this. The book Endure by Alex Hutchinson covers this. The hydration bit is a lesson learned, and easily fixed for next time. Keep in mind, though, that proper hydration includes electrolytes, not just water. |
Fear not the weapon, but rather the hand which wields it.
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Thanks for the reminder about the electrolytes. I meant to follow up on that in the other thread where you recommended it. I began adding electrolyte packs to my water bottles during the work day in the two weeks before the race, but I randomly picked two types from Amazon that were low sugar. One was a brand called Trevi that was very sweet, sort of like when you squirt too much Mio into a bottle of water. 10-15 calories for each packet, i think. The other one was this one: https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B08XQZX9K3?psc=1&;ref=ppx_pop_mob_b_asin_title Zero calorie, pretty much zero taste. Neither pleasant nor unpleasant. Just not much to say about it. Im aware of stuff like LMNT and whatnot, but Im always keen on low cal / low sugar for things like drinks. Do you have a brand or type of electrolyte powder that works for you? |
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Originally Posted By TurkeyLeg: Thanks for the reminder about the electrolytes. I meant to follow up on that in the other thread where you recommended it. I began adding electrolyte packs to my water bottles during the work day in the two weeks before the race, but I randomly picked two types from Amazon that were low sugar. One was a brand called Trevi that was very sweet, sort of like when you squirt too much Mio into a bottle of water. 10-15 calories for each packet, i think. The other one was this one: https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B08XQZX9K3?psc=1&ref=ppx_pop_mob_b_asin_title Zero calorie, pretty much zero taste. Neither pleasant nor unpleasant. Just not much to say about it. Im aware of stuff like LMNT and whatnot, but Im always keen on low cal / low sugar for things like drinks. Do you have a brand or type of electrolyte powder that works for you? I used LMNT for a good while, but have switched more towards making my own from the raw ingredients - using the LMNT ratios. It's cheaper rolling your own, but my travel schedule has increased this year and I take a bunch of LMNT packets with me just for the convenience. Plus, the possibility of having to explain away a baggie of mystery powder to TSA if my bag ever gets pulled leans things towards pre-packaged stuff anyway. |
Fear not the weapon, but rather the hand which wields it.
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Originally Posted By Commander_Keen: Plus, the possibility of having to explain away a baggie of mystery powder to TSA if my bag ever gets pulled leans things towards pre-packaged stuff anyway. Probably unfounded, but my worry too with baggies of Creatine and Magnesium. I stuff some liquid IV packs in my bag for electrolytes when traveling for work. |
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Another novel --- TLDR: Retatrutide has a MASSIVE effect on glucose during exercise, arguably more powerful than its purported weight loss effects. ---------------------------- Holy smokes, I started low dose Retatrutide Monday (6 days ago). My goal was primarily to see what it did to glucose control and also hopefully see if it would dampen some of the hunger Ive had since starting TRT. Id like to shave 250 calories a day from my current maintenance level intake, but that has been difficult, to say the least. Going from 230 lbs to 168 lbs in 14 months just by dieting and exercising was easy. What I mean by "easy" is that when the caloric deficit was getting to me, i could distract myself and forget about food by working out, doing chores, getting shit done, etc... Not once I was on TRT. All my lifting got better, my energy was better, all the usual benefits. Hunger, however, went crazy. I could easily eat 5000-6000 calories a day and still be hungry. I dreamed of food, thought about food at work, even mentally made my grocery list in the middle of my 10 mile PB race in VA Beach last month. It got better, but Im still nowhere near being able to shave calories without being miserable. Thats all secondary, though. I know that in a few more months, my ego would get the best of me and id try to grind through another diet. That wouldnt help glucose, however, so i figured it was time to be a lab rat. I ordered some gray market Reta and reconstituted it. Dont try this at home, kids. Leave it to the professionals (or fucking idiots like me). I started with a 1 mg injection, which is half of what was used in the latest FDA trials for a starting dose. 20 hours later, i saw the lowest morning glucose spike ive ever had. That spike, which nearly every diabetic gets, was low each day between then and now. My daily glucose average has been lower, also. The big test was today. I ate a decent breakfast (Sola bagel with low fat ham/egg/cheese, David bar, low carb Royo cinammon bun). Also ate a UCan energy bar right before the run and chugged a Celsius. The run was brutal, I couldnt hang for distance or pace that I wanted to keep due to weather. It was work, that for sure. Normally, hard effort runs send my glucose up well above 150mg/dl. Not today. Attached File It actually dropped while I ran. After that stage of the run, I walked for 1.5 miles, then ran another 2 at a slow pace. It stayed low. This is crazy. It will change my whole fueling strategy. This may be a breakthrough that allows me to safely do a marathon. My experience in the half marathon told me that my glucose was going to be elevated for a much longer time in a full 26.2, so i was worried about not being able to prevent bonking due to insulin sensitivity issues. This may not be the case anymore (or it could be worse, time will tell). If you are a diabetic, keep your eyes on Retatrutide. If you are not especially risk adverse, get some and start with a low dose -- .5 or 1mg / week. Dont worry about the weight loss stuff if you are already skinny, you can titrate down and it will have minimal effect on your weight if you watch your CICO. The drug lessens hunger, but it doesnt destroy it at low doses. Of course, if youre fat, stop screwing around and get on one of these GLP's to get back to a healthy weight, then decide how you want to maintain your healthy lifestyle afterwards. But dont waste time, fat kills and there is no GLP side effect worse than being a corpse. |
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Went for a light run, ended up running faster than I should have (7:30's for a guy whose 1 mile PR is 6:57) so it became another good test of glucose while on Reta. It would appear that the tiny dose of Reta has the potential to kick my glucose in the ass so hard that I may be dancing on the edge of hypoglycemia. I didnt think I could go hypoglycemic, period. The next hard or long run I do, im going to eat more carbs than normal and see how that shakes out. I may end up having to use gels for runs longer than 4 or 5 miles if Im pushing the pace. At least as long as Im using this drug. I might also knock the dosing back to half a mg if this persists. Reta is more powerful than I thought. Attached File |
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