[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Former high level employee of underwood ammo claims they copied buffalo bore on many of their loads. (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 10/9/2025 12:42:21 AM EDT
Don't know if everything is true since it is a disgruntled employee, but nonetheless, pretty interesting video here.  How Underwood Ammo copied Buffalo Bore (according to a former insider) |
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Quoted: Meh. Most of us hand loaders spend our time trying to duplicate factory loads. It's not like they couldn't have come up with the same recipe eventually just by trial and error. Exactly, it’s not like it’s patented. A lot of companies publish their load data. A lot of the same bullets and materials are used across multiple brands. |
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Quoted: Exactly, it’s not like it’s patented. A lot of companies publish their load data. A lot of the same bullets and materials are used across multiple brands. Quoted: Quoted: Meh. Most of us hand loaders spend our time trying to duplicate factory loads. It's not like they couldn't have come up with the same recipe eventually just by trial and error. Exactly, it’s not like it’s patented. A lot of companies publish their load data. A lot of the same bullets and materials are used across multiple brands. But theres a lot more that is revealed in this video. And I hear you on the complaints about it being so long. I skipped around and probably only watched about 20 minutes of it myself. I'll maybe watch the rest when I have the time. |
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Quoted: But theres a lot more that is revealed in this video. And I hear you on the complaints about it being so long. I skipped around and probably only watched about 20 minutes of it myself. I'll maybe watch the rest when I have the time. |
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Quoted: But theres a lot more that is revealed in this video. And I hear you on the complaints about it being so long. I skipped around and probably only watched about 20 minutes of it myself. I'll maybe watch the rest when I have the time. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Meh. Most of us hand loaders spend our time trying to duplicate factory loads. It's not like they couldn't have come up with the same recipe eventually just by trial and error. Exactly, it’s not like it’s patented. A lot of companies publish their load data. A lot of the same bullets and materials are used across multiple brands. But theres a lot more that is revealed in this video. And I hear you on the complaints about it being so long. I skipped around and probably only watched about 20 minutes of it myself. I'll maybe watch the rest when I have the time. Yeah, I’m not going to waste even 20 minutes on hearing a disgruntled former employee gossip without any evidence to support their claims other than 
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Quoted: So you are going to ask that multiple people invest more time than you have? Why do you value other's time so insignificantly? Quoted: Quoted: But theres a lot more that is revealed in this video. And I hear you on the complaints about it being so long. I skipped around and probably only watched about 20 minutes of it myself. I'll maybe watch the rest when I have the time. Holy shit. I'm not asking anyone to do anything for me. Watch it if you are interested, if you aren't, then don't. What's so hard about that? Do you know what I do when I see a thread I'm not interested in? I skip it and move on to the next one. |
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Quoted: So you are going to ask that multiple people invest more time than you have? Why do you value other's time so insignificantly? Quoted: Quoted: But theres a lot more that is revealed in this video. And I hear you on the complaints about it being so long. I skipped around and probably only watched about 20 minutes of it myself. I'll maybe watch the rest when I have the time. Or at least a summary. Did they have proprietary tech? I didn't think they really did anything that was groundbreaking but I won't pretend I looked into it. I thought they basically normalized the high end loads handloaders had been doing for a while. |
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In the aftermarket car world there used to be a company called PAW or I think Performance Automotive Warehouse or something like that. They had a big paper catalog maybe you got it. Literally all their camshafts were Edelbrock copies for lift, duration and separation. I still bought them. Cheap, good and came with nice lifters for less than edelbrock. They are out of business now for some other reason I think. 
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Quoted: In the aftermarket car world there used to be a company called PAW or I think Performance Automotive Warehouse or something like that. They had a big paper catalog maybe you got it. Literally all their camshafts were Edelbrock copies for lift, duration and separation. I still bought them. Cheap, good and came with nice lifters for less than edelbrock. They are out of business now for some other reason I think. And Erson probably made them. And yes I run one. |
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Quoted: Most of us hand loaders spend our time trying to duplicate factory loads. Really? That's extremely strange. I don't know anyone who does that and have been making my own ammo for 15 years. The point of hand loading is the exact opposite, to not have to use factory loads made to the lowest common denominator (the CIP/SAAMI standard). If you want a factory load, you go buy it and save tons of time. Other than that, I concur with the other posters that there is no protectable IP in factory load data, even though companies for some reason want to keep it “secret” in the sense that they won't publish it. OTOH, Underwood probably didn't think that IP is valuable either because they didn't put their employees under NDAs not to talk about it later. They might learn something from that. I think more important is the data on where they obtain their materials, how they setup their presses, how they do QA and how they seek to win government contracts (if any). |
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Quoted: But theres a lot more that is revealed in this video. And I hear you on the complaints about it being so long. I skipped around and probably only watched about 20 minutes of it myself. I'll maybe watch the rest when I have the time. If you don't have time that tells me it isn't worth mine. |
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Quoted: Really? That's extremely strange. I don't know anyone who does that and have been making my own ammo for 15 years. The point of hand loading is the exact opposite, to not have to use factory loads made to the lowest common denominator (the CIP/SAAMI standard). If you want a factory load, you go buy it and save tons of time. Other than that, I concur with the other posters that there is no protectable IP in factory load data, even though companies for some reason want to keep it “secret” in the sense that they won't publish it. OTOH, Underwood probably didn't think that IP is valuable either because they didn't put their employees under NDAs not to talk about it later. They might learn something from that. I think more important is the data on where they obtain their materials, how they setup their presses, how they do QA and how they seek to win government contracts (if any). Quoted: Quoted: Most of us hand loaders spend our time trying to duplicate factory loads. Really? That's extremely strange. I don't know anyone who does that and have been making my own ammo for 15 years. The point of hand loading is the exact opposite, to not have to use factory loads made to the lowest common denominator (the CIP/SAAMI standard). If you want a factory load, you go buy it and save tons of time. Other than that, I concur with the other posters that there is no protectable IP in factory load data, even though companies for some reason want to keep it “secret” in the sense that they won't publish it. OTOH, Underwood probably didn't think that IP is valuable either because they didn't put their employees under NDAs not to talk about it later. They might learn something from that. I think more important is the data on where they obtain their materials, how they setup their presses, how they do QA and how they seek to win government contracts (if any). You don't know any handloaders who try to replicate proven factory loads? For the reloaders I know, they're not trying to save time, and not trying to load anything wildly out of spec. They want premium ammo at non premium prices, and a measure of quality control over their ammo. The only 5.56 I load is a Mk262 clone. My 300 Blackout loads are just basic subsonics. My 10mm is where I push it, but only because factory ammo is famously underloaded. |
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Yeah I basically tried to replicate the FBI 5.56 Federal 62gr TBBC loading… because I have a lot of the pulled bullets. But all I cared about was similar velocity, proper function in my wide range of rifles, safe pressure range, and OK accuracy (not a bullet known for precision work- it is for punching through stuff). No idea what powder they use. But to copy the exact powder type and load weight? Seems like it would just be less work to figure out the pressure by sending off samples to a testing lab, or just buying the test equipment yourself. Actual ammo makers don’t use 1 lb bottles of powder from the local shop to make their ammo, they use canister grade in large quantities, and they sometimes mix it up (because they know what they are doing). Lot variation is a thing as well, so something on the ragged edge of being safe with last years lot of powder might not be safe when the lot has some variance, or the supplier changes who made it (happens all the time- same powder can be made in different countries if you look at the history ( I have several rifle powders that have been mace in different countries depending on what era it was and who owned the powder company at that time.) |
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Quoted: Ok and? How is this news. Underwood uses XTP bullets, lots of companies use the same bullets and loadings. This seems like manufactured drama by a scorned employee. Didn't PSA go through that? Scorned employee trying to hurt people? Yeah, it's brass, bullets and powder. Sundles is a great dude... but loading hot isnt a rocket surgery process. |
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Quoted: Overpriced shit that no one needs. “I’m going to Wyoming to drive around Yellowstone with my family… I’ll never be more than 50 feet from my car, I better get hard cast for my .454…” Yeah man, nobody needs a gun when you have a car.  Let's mock people who choose to carry guns for self protection, that seems like a rational thing to say on a gun board. |
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Quoted: You don't know any handloaders who try to replicate proven factory loads? For the reloaders I know, they're not trying to save time, and not trying to load anything wildly out of spec. They want premium ammo at non premium prices, and a measure of quality control over their ammo. The only 5.56 I load is a Mk262 clone. My 300 Blackout loads are just basic subsonics. My 10mm is where I push it, but only because factory ammo is famously underloaded. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Most of us hand loaders spend our time trying to duplicate factory loads. Really? That's extremely strange. I don't know anyone who does that and have been making my own ammo for 15 years. The point of hand loading is the exact opposite, to not have to use factory loads made to the lowest common denominator (the CIP/SAAMI standard). If you want a factory load, you go buy it and save tons of time. Other than that, I concur with the other posters that there is no protectable IP in factory load data, even though companies for some reason want to keep it “secret” in the sense that they won't publish it. OTOH, Underwood probably didn't think that IP is valuable either because they didn't put their employees under NDAs not to talk about it later. They might learn something from that. I think more important is the data on where they obtain their materials, how they setup their presses, how they do QA and how they seek to win government contracts (if any). You don't know any handloaders who try to replicate proven factory loads? For the reloaders I know, they're not trying to save time, and not trying to load anything wildly out of spec. They want premium ammo at non premium prices, and a measure of quality control over their ammo. The only 5.56 I load is a Mk262 clone. My 300 Blackout loads are just basic subsonics. My 10mm is where I push it, but only because factory ammo is famously underloaded. You should load some 110 gr 300 BLK |
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Quoted: Holy shit. I'm not asking anyone to do anything for me. Watch it if you are interested, if you aren't, then don't. What's so hard about that? Do you know what I do when I see a thread I'm not interested in? I skip it and move on to the next one. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: But theres a lot more that is revealed in this video. And I hear you on the complaints about it being so long. I skipped around and probably only watched about 20 minutes of it myself. I'll maybe watch the rest when I have the time. Holy shit. I'm not asking anyone to do anything for me. Watch it if you are interested, if you aren't, then don't. What's so hard about that? Do you know what I do when I see a thread I'm not interested in? I skip it and move on to the next one. But you're not even interested in this one. What did you have in mind when you posted it? |
| I enjoy Sundle’s videos and I’ve bought a few boxes of ammo through the years. It’s exceptionally overpriced for factory ammunition, but generally gives the best performance in any given caliber. I started watching the video when I saw it listed last night. It kind of came across as “look at me and how great I am.” Tim could use a little slice of humble pie occasionally and he’d be much more enjoyable to watch. |
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How dare you post something ammo related on arfcom, don't you know GD is for deciding whether or not a female pedo is to be shunned or not, possibly for posting what one is eating, but never ANYTHING firearm related. Shame on you OP. Seriously though, always down for a little industry mud slinging, and Tim is cool, hard to believe he's approaching 70, hope I look that good at that age. |