Federal Court Strikes Down NFA Registration on "untaxed" firearms (Page 134 of 195)
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Posting again for visibility. In Silencer Shop Foundation vs. ATF, the plaintiffs are: - Brady Wetz - Silencer Shop Foundation - B&T USA, LLC, - Palmetto State Armory, LLC - SilencerCo Weapons Research, LLC - Gun Owners of America, Inc. - Firearms Regulatory Accountability Coalition, Inc. - Gun Owners Foundation - States of Texas, Alaska, Georgia, Idaho, Indiana, Kansas, Louisiana, Montana, North Dakota, Oklahoma, South Carolina, South Dakota, Utah, West Virginia, and Wyoming The challenged NFA provisions are: • 26 U.S.C. § 5812(a)–(b); https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/5812 (a)Application A firearm shall not be transferred unless (1) the transferor of the firearm has filed with the Secretary a written application, in duplicate, for the transfer and registration of the firearm to the transferee on the application form prescribed by the Secretary; (2) any tax payable on the transfer is paid as evidenced by the proper stamp affixed to the original application form; (3) the transferee is identified in the application form in such manner as the Secretary may by regulations prescribe, except that, if such person is an individual, the identification must include his fingerprints and his photograph; (4) the transferor of the firearm is identified in the application form in such manner as the Secretary may by regulations prescribe; (5) the firearm is identified in the application form in such manner as the Secretary may by regulations prescribe; and (6) the application form shows that the Secretary has approved the transfer and the registration of the firearm to the transferee. Applications shall be denied if the transfer, receipt, or possession of the firearm would place the transferee in violation of law. (b)Transfer of possession The transferee of a firearm shall not take possession of the firearm unless the Secretary has approved the transfer and registration of the firearm to the transferee as required by subsection (a) of this section. =============== • 26 U.S.C. § 5822; https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/5822 No person shall make a firearm unless he has (a) filed with the Secretary a written application, in duplicate, to make and register the firearm on the form prescribed by the Secretary; (b) paid any tax payable on the making and such payment is evidenced by the proper stamp affixed to the original application form; (c) identified the firearm to be made in the application form in such manner as the Secretary may by regulations prescribe; (d) identified himself in the application form in such manner as the Secretary may by regulations prescribe, except that, if such person is an individual, the identification must include his fingerprints and his photograph; and (e) obtained the approval of the Secretary to make and register the firearm and the application form shows such approval. Applications shall be denied if the making or possession of the firearm would place the person making the firearm in violation of law. =============== • 26 U.S.C. § 5841(a)–(c), (e); https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/5841 (a)Central registry The Secretary shall maintain a central registry of all firearms in the United States which are not in the possession or under the control of the United States. This registry shall be known as the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record. The registry shall include— (1)identification of the firearm; (2)date of registration; and (3)identification and address of person entitled to possession of the firearm. (b)By whom registered Each manufacturer, importer, and maker shall register each firearm he manufactures, imports, or makes. Each firearm transferred shall be registered to the transferee by the transferor. (c)How registered Each manufacturer shall notify the Secretary of the manufacture of a firearm in such manner as may by regulations be prescribed and such notification shall effect the registration of the firearm required by this section. Each importer, maker, and transferor of a firearm shall, prior to importing, making, or transferring a firearm, obtain authorization in such manner as required by this chapter or regulations issued thereunder to import, make, or transfer the firearm, and such authorization shall effect the registration of the firearm required by this section. (e)Proof of registration A person possessing a firearm registered as required by this section shall retain proof of registration which shall be made available to the Secretary upon request. =============== • 26 U.S.C. § 5861(b)–(f); https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/5861 It shall be unlawful for any person— (b)to receive or possess a firearm transferred to him in violation of the provisions of this chapter; or (c)to receive or possess a firearm made in violation of the provisions of this chapter; or (d)to receive or possess a firearm which is not registered to him in the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record; or (e)to transfer a firearm in violation of the provisions of this chapter; or (f)to make a firearm in violation of the provisions of this chapter; [s]or =============== • 27 C.F.R. § 479.62(a)–(d); https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-27/chapter-II/subchapter-B/part-479/subpart-E/subject-group-ECFR19dba6cc0eced3e/section-479.62 § 479.62 Applying to make. (a) General. No person shall make a firearm unless the person has filed with the Director a completed application on ATF Form 1 (5320.1), Application to Make and Register a Firearm, in duplicate, executed under the penalties of perjury, to make and register the firearm and has received the approval of the Director to make the firearm, which approval shall effectuate registration of the firearm to the applicant. If the applicant is not a licensed manufacturer, importer, or dealer qualified under this part and is a partnership, company (including a Limited Liability Company (LLC)), association, trust, or corporation, all information on the Form 1 application shall be furnished for each responsible person of the applicant (b) Preparation of ATF Form 1. All of the information called for on Form 1 shall be provided, including: (1) Type of application, i.e., tax-paid or tax-exempt. If making the firearm is taxable, the applicant must remit $200 with the application for a machine gun or destructive device, or $0 for all other firearms, in accordance with the instructions on the form; (2) The identity of the applicant. If an individual, the applicant shall provide the applicant's name, address, and date of birth, and also comply with the identification requirements prescribed in § 479.63(a). If other than an individual, the applicant shall provide its name, address, and employer identification number, if any, as well as the name and address of each responsible person. Each responsible person of the applicant also shall comply with the identification requirements prescribed in § 479.63(b); (3) A description of the firearm to be made by type; caliber, gauge, or size; model; length of barrel; serial number; other marks of identification; and the name and address of the original manufacturer (if the applicant is not the original manufacturer); (4) The applicant's Federal firearms license number (if any); (5) The applicant's special (occupational) tax stamp (if applicable); and (6) If the applicant (including, if other than an individual, any responsible person) is an alien admitted under a nonimmigrant visa, applicable documentation demonstrating that the nonimmigrant alien falls within an exception to 18 U.S.C. 922(g)(5)(B) under 18 U.S.C. 922(y)(2), or has obtained a waiver of that provision under 18 U.S.C. 922(y)(3). (c) Notification of chief law enforcement officer. Prior to the submission of the application to the Director, all applicants and responsible persons shall forward a completed copy of Form 1 or a completed copy of Form 5320.23, respectively, to the chief law enforcement officer of the locality in which the applicant or responsible person is located. The chief law enforcement officer is the local chief of police, county sheriff, head of the State police, or State or local district attorney or prosecutor. If the applicant is not a licensed manufacturer, importer, or dealer qualified under this part and is a partnership, company, association, or corporation, for purposes of this section, it is considered located at its principal office or principal place of business; if a trust, for purposes of this section, it is considered located at the primary location at which the firearm will be maintained. (d) Approval of Form 1. If the application is approved, the Director will affix a National Firearms Act stamp to the original application in the space provided therefor and properly cancel the stamp (see § 479.67). The approved application will then be returned to the applicant. =============== • 27 C.F.R. § 479.84(a)–(d). https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-27/chapter-II/subchapter-B/part-479/subpart-F/subject-group-ECFRb28151c5621805c/section-479.84 § 479.84 Applying to transfer. (a) General. Except as otherwise provided in this subpart, no firearm may be transferred in the United States unless an application, Form 4 (5320.4), Application for Tax Paid Transfer and Registration of Firearm, in duplicate, executed under the penalties of perjury, to transfer the firearm and register it to the transferee has been filed with and approved by the Director. The application shall be filed by the transferor. If the transferee is not a licensed manufacturer, importer, or dealer qualified under this part and is a partnership, company (including a Limited Liability Company (LLC)), association, trust, or corporation, all information on the Form 4 application shall be furnished for each responsible person of the transferee. (b) Preparation of ATF Form 4. All of the information called for on Form 4 shall be provided, including: (1) Type of firearm being transferred. The applicant must remit $200 with the application for a machine gun or destructive device, or $0 for all other firearms, in accordance with the instructions on the form; (2) The identity of the transferor by name and address and, if the transferor is other than a natural person, the title or legal status of the person executing the application in relation to the transferor; (3) The transferor's Federal firearms license number (if any); (4) The transferor's special (occupational) tax stamp (if any); (5) The identity of the transferee by name and address and, if the transferee is a person not qualified as a manufacturer, importer, or dealer under this part, the transferee shall be further identified in the manner prescribed in § 479.85; (6) The transferee's Federal firearms license number (if any); (7) The transferee's special (occupational) tax stamp (if applicable); and (8) A description of the firearm to be transferred by name and address of the manufacturer or importer (if known); caliber, gauge, or size; model; serial number; in the case of a short-barreled shotgun or a short-barreled rifle, the length of the barrel; in the case of a weapon made from a rifle or shotgun, the overall length of the weapon and the length of the barrel; and any other identifying marks on the firearm. In the event the firearm does not bear a serial number, the applicant shall obtain a serial number from ATF and shall stamp (impress) or otherwise conspicuously place such serial number on the firearm in a manner not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered, or removed. (9) If the transferee (including, if other than an individual, any responsible person) is an alien admitted under a nonimmigrant visa, applicable documentation demonstrating that the nonimmigrant alien falls within an exception to 18 U.S.C. 922(g)(5)(B) under 18 U.S.C. 922(y)(2), or has obtained a waiver of that provision under 18 U.S.C. 922(y)(3). (c) Notification of chief law enforcement officer. Prior to the submission of the application to the Director, all transferees and responsible persons shall forward a completed copy of Form 4 or a completed copy of Form 5320.23, respectively, to the chief law enforcement officer of the locality in which the transferee or responsible person is located. The chief law enforcement officer is the local chief of police, county sheriff, head of the State police, State or local district attorney or prosecutor. If the transferee is not a licensed manufacturer, importer, or dealer qualified under this part and is a partnership, company, association, or corporation, for purposes of this section, it is considered located at its principal office or principal place of business; if the transferee is not a licensed manufacturer, importer, or dealer qualified under this part and is a trust, for purposes of this section, it is considered located at the primary location at which the firearm will be maintained. (d) Approval of Form 4. If the application is approved, the Director will affix a National Firearms Act stamp to the original application in the space provided therefor and properly cancel the stamp (see § 479.87). The approved application will then be returned to the transferor. =/=/=/=/=/=/=/=/=/=/=/=/=/=/= In Jensen vs. ATF, the plaintiffs are: - John Jensen - Jeremy Neusch - David Lynn Smith - Hot Shots Custom, LLC - Texas State Rifle Association - FPC Action Foundation - Citizens Committee For The Right To Keep And Bear Arms The challenged NFA provisions are: • 26 U.S.C. § 5842(b); https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/5842 26 U.S. Code § 5842 - Identification of firearms (Including (a) here because (b) below refers to it) (a)Identification of firearms other than destructive devices Each manufacturer and importer and anyone making a firearm shall identify each firearm, other than a destructive device, manufactured, imported, or made by a serial number which may not be readily removed, obliterated, or altered, the name of the manufacturer, importer, or maker, and such other identification as the Secretary may by regulations prescribe. (b)Firearms without serial number Any person who possesses a firearm, other than a destructive device, which does not bear the serial number and other information required by subsection (a) of this section shall identify the firearm with a serial number assigned by the Secretary and any other information the Secretary may by regulations prescribe. =============== • 26 U.S.C. § 5861(i). https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/5861 26 U.S. Code § 5861 - Prohibited acts It shall be unlawful for any person— (i)to receive or possess a firearm which is not identified by a serial number as required by this chapter |
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Originally Posted By MannyRibera: Rock on! People from the shithole Virginia of all places get to experience the 4473 fun while everyone in Ky is seeking guidance from a atf Ouija board. Originally Posted By MannyRibera: Originally Posted By bad2006z71: God Damn 4473 suppressors make my dick hard. I need a higher paying job to keep up with this shit. https://i.imgur.com/jRfxY6jh.jpg Rock on! People from the shithole Virginia of all places get to experience the 4473 fun while everyone in Ky is seeking guidance from a atf Ouija board. Asktually, NOVA, richmond, civlle, danville, and Va Beach are really the only shit holes in Va. Sadly, they control Va, which makes Va a shithole state. 
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Originally Posted By 50cal: I will as soon as i can find a 45-70 Mare's Leg. 
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I hated going to weddings. All the grandmas would poke me and say "You're next". They stopped that when I started doing it to them at funerals.
Sic semper evello mortem tyrannis
Sic semper evello mortem tyrannis
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Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer: because you still have to attach finger prints either by mail or pay for the electronic file and wait. 4473 equals walking in ffl and take home 10 min later Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer: Originally Posted By Hi-Vel: I don't have a need for a suppressor, but if I did, why wouldn't I just file the Form 4? The tax is zero, and the approval times haven't been bad lately. because you still have to attach finger prints either by mail or pay for the electronic file and wait. 4473 equals walking in ffl and take home 10 min later Yep. I wasn't even delayed this time like I normally am with guns. Hell this would have been a 5 min transaction had I not stood around talking shit with the owner. |
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Originally Posted By GenYRevolverGuy: Is that really a problem specific to the NRA, though? The entire gun community was dominated by fudds until what? The '90s? The '00s? Everything is different now. What we call fudds... There were hunters and competition shooters. Hunters were divided between "feed my family" and "sportsmen". Trying to overlay modern gun culture over 1930s shooting culture is useless. |
Et quant au repos ? Le Caliphate doit être essuyé de la terre.
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Originally Posted By MannyRibera: Rock on! People from the shithole Virginia of all places get to experience the 4473 fun while everyone in Ky is seeking guidance from a atf Ouija board. NC is on its ass as always, at least they are not after our mags and ARs yet. |
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Originally Posted By ODA_564: I used ~ because the NFRTR probably is not 100% accurate. I would be surprised if it is even 50% accurate on items older than eforms. I've had several instances where I had to send them my approved Form 3/4s to get records corrected because it was wrong on my inventory that had been approved by them just a few days/weeks prior. It seems like they had a 1-2% error rate on paper forms. Then add in the stuff from 20-80+ years ago that has changed hands without paperwork, people who have died/lost items, etc. How many silencers were in grandpa's basement that went to the yard sale pile or had a grandson take it without a Form 5? |
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Originally Posted By TxRabbitBane: Trash day https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/69531/IMG_1480-3813761.jpg Someone in a ban state would probably put it to use... |
This is...a clue - Pat_Rogers
I'm not adequately aluminumized for this thread. - gonzo_beyondo
CO, MI, OR - Please lobby your legislators to end discrimination against non-resident CCW permit holders
I'm not adequately aluminumized for this thread. - gonzo_beyondo
CO, MI, OR - Please lobby your legislators to end discrimination against non-resident CCW permit holders
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Originally Posted By CleverNickname: After thinking about it for a bit, I think the problem would be that the injunction only prevents the ATF from doing certain things (enforcing the laws and regulations listed in the injunction). It doesn't require the ATF to take any action. Nothing requires them to update the NFRTR to remove info on any person or particular firearm. Arguably, even updating the NFRTR to remove info could violate the injunction, as that could be construed as "maintaining a central registry", as per 26 U.S. Code § 5841, one of the enjoined laws. I'm not saying don't try though, I don't see a downside. Just don't be surprised if they refuse, or even more likely, don't reply at all. I liked the idea some Congress critters had about forcing ATF to treat the registry as tax rolls. Any $0 item transferred since January 1st has to be removed and any transfers more than seven years old have to be removed. |
What have the Romans ever done for us?
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Originally Posted By willi3d: Yeah, I guess all those German Police and other mil/LEO customers still using and buying MP5s are just posers. Go tell them that it’s just a range toy and there are better options out there. Select fire HK made is different than Turkish made with a FRT. |
Panem et Circenses
I have also learned from experience that the greater part of our happiness or misery depends upon our dispositions, and not upon our circumstances.
Kites rise highest against the wind, not with it. - Churchill
I have also learned from experience that the greater part of our happiness or misery depends upon our dispositions, and not upon our circumstances.
Kites rise highest against the wind, not with it. - Churchill
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Originally Posted By bad2006z71: Asktually, NOVA, richmond, civlle, danville, and Va Beach are really the only shit holes in Va. Sadly, they control Va, which makes Va a shithole state. Originally Posted By bad2006z71: Originally Posted By MannyRibera: Originally Posted By bad2006z71: God Damn 4473 suppressors make my dick hard. I need a higher paying job to keep up with this shit. https://i.imgur.com/jRfxY6jh.jpg Rock on! People from the shithole Virginia of all places get to experience the 4473 fun while everyone in Ky is seeking guidance from a atf Ouija board. Asktually, NOVA, richmond, civlle, danville, and Va Beach are really the only shit holes in Va. Sadly, they control Va, which makes Va a shithole state. Cross out Virginia Beach and replace with Hampton Roads. All of them are responsible. |
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Originally Posted By CleverNickname: You always could. Understand the difference of "can" vs. "may". Originally Posted By CleverNickname: Originally Posted By AngryNagant: When can i 3d print my own suppressors? You always could. Understand the difference of "can" vs. "may". And the meaning of 10 years and $250k. |
I love a good double entendre.
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Originally Posted By 50cal: Well, well, well. Henry offers the Bear's Leg. A 45-70 version of the Mare's Leg. Will wonders ever cease. Originally Posted By 50cal: Originally Posted By 50cal: I will as soon as i can find a 45-70 Mare's Leg. @50cal Rossi has the triple black pistol: https://rossiusa.com/product/rifles/lever-action/r95-45-70-triple-black-pistol/  and some guy already SBR'd one: https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/sbr-ing-the-rossi-r95-45-70-triple-black-pistol-44828371  
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What have the Romans ever done for us?
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Originally Posted By Soxfan: Has anyone in middle TN found a dealer that doesn’t require the form 4 yet? Nope. allegedly - the local ATF branch out Brentwood has been telling folks, "don't do it", seems to be over the phone when folks call for clarification. |
Panem et Circenses
I have also learned from experience that the greater part of our happiness or misery depends upon our dispositions, and not upon our circumstances.
Kites rise highest against the wind, not with it. - Churchill
I have also learned from experience that the greater part of our happiness or misery depends upon our dispositions, and not upon our circumstances.
Kites rise highest against the wind, not with it. - Churchill
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Originally Posted By Villafuego: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/55482/Screenshot_2026-08-19_140151-3813872.png I’m not taking legal advice from APEX gun parts. |
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Originally Posted By Villafuego: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/55482/Screenshot_2026-08-19_140151-3813872.png The first real bit of news on this front in some time. Thank you, sir. |
If you can’t dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit.
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Originally Posted By MikeDeltaFoxtrot: Yes, Chevron deference is gone, but that was just a nuance on the APA and how the court would evaluate the validity of rules made by agencies. Administrative rulemaking is still alive and well. Originally Posted By MikeDeltaFoxtrot: Originally Posted By madmacs69: Originally Posted By MikeDeltaFoxtrot: Originally Posted By Freyja_75: Originally Posted By Cypher214: The ATF doesn't make law or interpret law or decide what defines a machinegun, they enforce laws passed by Congress. They aren't supposed to, but they do it anyway. Sometime they are supposed to. The Supreme Court has long allowed the delegation doctrine under which Congress can delegate rule making authority to the executive branch. That's the basis for the administrative rulemaking ATF (and most other federal agencies) engage in. In my view it is unconstitutional, but the courts do not agree. The delegation doctrine of probably the single biggest factor in the growth and overreach of the federal government. If Congress actually had to pass everything in detail, the government would be much smaller. Didnt SCOTUS just revist Chevron... https://www.scotusblog.com/2024/06/supreme-court-strikes-down-chevron-curtailing-power-of-federal-agencies/ Yes, Chevron deference is gone, but that was just a nuance on the APA and how the court would evaluate the validity of rules made by agencies. Administrative rulemaking is still alive and well. With the caveat that the agency will have to justify their rule if and when challenged... they don't just get to make up whatever they want and say "because we say so."... this also means the court can say "no, they didn't give you the power to do that." |
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Originally Posted By Oldgold: Guess on a timeline for plan A? NRA should have taken this to court in 1934. NRA helped to get the NFA passed. The only thing they did right in 1934 was to keep handguns off the NFA. |
"I do believe that some gun laws are needed and yes, I am a Republican" ~ tc556guy - NRA Member
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Originally Posted By 50cal: I will as soon as i can find a 45-70 Mare's Leg. Originally Posted By 50cal: Originally Posted By MikeDeltaFoxtrot: And put a full stock on it? 45-70 SBR? Pics or it didn't happen. Oh really...  https://battlehawkarmory.com/product/henry-h10-bears-leg-.45-70-govt-13.8-barrel-31-capacity-lever-action-pistol https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1029768621?pid=974018  |
TechGal26 - "I'm not sure if this is a joke or if you are stupid"
Sturmgewehr-58 - “That's why I have a VPN. I set my location to Israel and I get to view any degeneracy.”
Sturmgewehr-58 - “That's why I have a VPN. I set my location to Israel and I get to view any degeneracy.”
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Originally Posted By thesquidliest: The first real bit of news on this front in some time. Thank you, sir. Originally Posted By thesquidliest: Originally Posted By Villafuego: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/55482/Screenshot_2026-08-19_140151-3813872.png The first real bit of news on this front in some time. Thank you, sir. Most of what he is claiming can't hold up long term because there are many problems wrapped up in there. Did the decision not explicitly state "current and future" customers/members are covered? He is directly contradicting that. |
Everything posted above is factual. Maybe.
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Originally Posted By Villafuego: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/55482/Screenshot_2026-08-19_140151-3813872.png That’s overly cautious bullshit. |
Life member of CRPA. FPC contributor.
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Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer: because you still have to attach finger prints either by mail or pay for the electronic file and wait. 4473 equals walking in ffl and take home 10 min later Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer: Originally Posted By Hi-Vel: I don't have a need for a suppressor, but if I did, why wouldn't I just file the Form 4? The tax is zero, and the approval times haven't been bad lately. because you still have to attach finger prints either by mail or pay for the electronic file and wait. 4473 equals walking in ffl and take home 10 min later Plus some people really hate registries. |
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Originally Posted By AK74-U: I can vouch for the Magpul stock. I love it, and it's "normal" in price, unlike the HK stock. No offense, but a stock of any kind isn't worth a thousand dollars. Get over yourselves HK. An advantage of the Magpul SL is weight. It’s almost a pound lighter than the traditional A3. |
“I don’t want a valuable life lesson, I just want an ice cream.”
Space Corps Directive 196156: 'Any officer caught sniffing the saddle of the exercise bicycle in the women's gym will be discharged without trial.'
Space Corps Directive 196156: 'Any officer caught sniffing the saddle of the exercise bicycle in the women's gym will be discharged without trial.'
Don't let the join date fool you... here since '97
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Originally Posted By HansohnBrothers: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/398162/IMG_0960-3813887.jpg So if it's not from Silencer Shop or the other plaintiffs directly, form 4 is required. WTF..I sure hope that isn't so. Pants on head retarded if so. |
Fuck Cancer. Love you Pop.
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Originally Posted By HansohnBrothers: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/398162/IMG_0960-3813887.jpg So if it's not from Silencer Shop or the other plaintiffs directly, form 4 is required. This is probably going to turn into a giant cluster fuck. I have no idea who my dealer gets their suppressors from. I don't think they deal with Silencer Shop. |
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Originally Posted By Hi-Vel: I don't have a need for a suppressor, but if I did, why wouldn't I just file the Form 4? The tax is zero, and the approval times haven't been bad lately. |
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Originally Posted By bad2006z71: This is probably going to turn into a giant cluster fuck. I have no idea who my dealer gets their suppressors from. I don't think they deal with Silencer Shop. Originally Posted By bad2006z71: Originally Posted By HansohnBrothers: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/398162/IMG_0960-3813887.jpg So if it's not from Silencer Shop or the other plaintiffs directly, form 4 is required. This is probably going to turn into a giant cluster fuck. I have no idea who my dealer gets their suppressors from. I don't think they deal with Silencer Shop. lol probably going to? It’s been a giant clusterfuck since last week. |
Its to late for the boots, save your watch!
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Originally Posted By HansohnBrothers: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/398162/IMG_0960-3813887.jpg So if it's not from Silencer Shop or the other plaintiffs directly, form 4 is required. I wonder if this is the way an independent lawyer would read the injunction, or if that's Silencer Shop's way of nudging dealers to keep purchasing through them and/or using them for Form 4 transfers on items bought from other distributors. They stand to lose a decent chunk of sales from all the other distributors if GOA membership also covers their transactions. It seems to me like GOA membership would also cover the FFL/SOTs, regardless of where the suppressor was sourced from. But ALL silencers from Silencer Shop would be covered regardless of membership. I don't see why an FFL/SOT with GOA membership transferring to a customer with a GOA membership wouldn't fall under the injunction. As I've said already in this thread, I'm not a lawyer. |
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Originally Posted By wherewildthingsare: I’m not taking legal advice from APEX gun parts. Originally Posted By wherewildthingsare: Originally Posted By Villafuego: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/55482/Screenshot_2026-08-19_140151-3813872.png I’m not taking legal advice from APEX gun parts. You do you. That's not "legal advice from Apex". It's a synopsis of a meeting they attended. |
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Originally Posted By HansohnBrothers: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/398162/IMG_0960-3813887.jpg So if it's not from Silencer Shop or the other plaintiffs directly, form 4 is required. |
Everything posted above is factual. Maybe.
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Originally Posted By graysonp: I wonder if this is the way an independent lawyer would read the injunction, or if that's Silencer Shop's way of nudging dealers to keep purchasing through them and/or using them for Form 4 transfers on items bought from other distributors. They stand to lose a decent chunk of sales from all the other distributors if GOA membership also covers their transactions. It seems to me like GOA membership would also cover the FFL/SOTs, regardless of where the suppressor was sourced from. But ALL silencers from Silencer Shop would be covered regardless of membership. I don't see why an FFL/SOT with GOA membership transferring to a customer with a GOA membership wouldn't fall under the injunction. As I've said already in this thread, I'm not a lawyer. Originally Posted By graysonp: Originally Posted By HansohnBrothers: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/398162/IMG_0960-3813887.jpg So if it's not from Silencer Shop or the other plaintiffs directly, form 4 is required. I wonder if this is the way an independent lawyer would read the injunction, or if that's Silencer Shop's way of nudging dealers to keep purchasing through them and/or using them for Form 4 transfers on items bought from other distributors. They stand to lose a decent chunk of sales from all the other distributors if GOA membership also covers their transactions. It seems to me like GOA membership would also cover the FFL/SOTs, regardless of where the suppressor was sourced from. But ALL silencers from Silencer Shop would be covered regardless of membership. I don't see why an FFL/SOT with GOA membership transferring to a customer with a GOA membership wouldn't fall under the injunction. As I've said already in this thread, I'm not a lawyer. |
Everything posted above is factual. Maybe.
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Originally Posted By bad2006z71: This is probably going to turn into a giant cluster fuck. I have no idea who my dealer gets their suppressors from. I don't think they deal with Silencer Shop. Originally Posted By bad2006z71: Originally Posted By HansohnBrothers: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/398162/IMG_0960-3813887.jpg So if it's not from Silencer Shop or the other plaintiffs directly, form 4 is required. This is probably going to turn into a giant cluster fuck. I have no idea who my dealer gets their suppressors from. I don't think they deal with Silencer Shop. As a thought exercise: if the desiring plaintiff member party finishes 80% receivers for their SBS/SBRs and 3d prints their cans, there is no doubt it was only in the hands of covered members from start to finish and it never crossed state lines. Just sayin... there is no need to fuck around with dealers playing legal telephone games passed from what some guy thought about the injunction across MS teams to some other guy and then to a forum and then cross posted to another forum and then on to the next FFL. |
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Originally Posted By GenYRevolverGuy: The entire gun community was dominated by fudds until what? The '90s? The '00s? Everything is different now. |
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So to make doubly sure.... As a SD resident, GOA member (even though I cannot find my card or member number), that is planning to buy a SiCo suppressor, I should be able to do so at any gun shop that has the suppressor in stock and make the purchase? Not that it matters as it sounds like I could just go to Silencer Central and they'd sell whatever I wanted on a 4473 without jumping through any other hoops. Originally Posted By Dangus: Posting again for visibility. In Silencer Shop Foundation vs. ATF, the plaintiffs are: - Brady Wetz - Silencer Shop Foundation - B&T USA, LLC, - Palmetto State Armory, LLC - SilencerCo Weapons Research, LLC - Gun Owners of America, Inc. - Firearms Regulatory Accountability Coalition, Inc. - Gun Owners Foundation - States of Texas, Alaska, Georgia, Idaho, Indiana, Kansas, Louisiana, Montana, North Dakota, Oklahoma, South Carolina, South Dakota, Utah, West Virginia, and Wyoming The challenged NFA provisions are: • 26 U.S.C. § 5812(a)–(b); https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/5812 (a)Application A firearm shall not be transferred unless (1) the transferor of the firearm has filed with the Secretary a written application, in duplicate, for the transfer and registration of the firearm to the transferee on the application form prescribed by the Secretary; (2) any tax payable on the transfer is paid as evidenced by the proper stamp affixed to the original application form; (3) the transferee is identified in the application form in such manner as the Secretary may by regulations prescribe, except that, if such person is an individual, the identification must include his fingerprints and his photograph; (4) the transferor of the firearm is identified in the application form in such manner as the Secretary may by regulations prescribe; (5) the firearm is identified in the application form in such manner as the Secretary may by regulations prescribe; and (6) the application form shows that the Secretary has approved the transfer and the registration of the firearm to the transferee. Applications shall be denied if the transfer, receipt, or possession of the firearm would place the transferee in violation of law. (b)Transfer of possession The transferee of a firearm shall not take possession of the firearm unless the Secretary has approved the transfer and registration of the firearm to the transferee as required by subsection (a) of this section. =============== • 26 U.S.C. § 5822; https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/5822 No person shall make a firearm unless he has (a) filed with the Secretary a written application, in duplicate, to make and register the firearm on the form prescribed by the Secretary; (b) paid any tax payable on the making and such payment is evidenced by the proper stamp affixed to the original application form; (c) identified the firearm to be made in the application form in such manner as the Secretary may by regulations prescribe; (d) identified himself in the application form in such manner as the Secretary may by regulations prescribe, except that, if such person is an individual, the identification must include his fingerprints and his photograph; and (e) obtained the approval of the Secretary to make and register the firearm and the application form shows such approval. Applications shall be denied if the making or possession of the firearm would place the person making the firearm in violation of law. =============== • 26 U.S.C. § 5841(a)–(c), (e); https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/5841 (a)Central registry The Secretary shall maintain a central registry of all firearms in the United States which are not in the possession or under the control of the United States. This registry shall be known as the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record. The registry shall include— (1)identification of the firearm; (2)date of registration; and (3)identification and address of person entitled to possession of the firearm. (b)By whom registered Each manufacturer, importer, and maker shall register each firearm he manufactures, imports, or makes. Each firearm transferred shall be registered to the transferee by the transferor. (c)How registered Each manufacturer shall notify the Secretary of the manufacture of a firearm in such manner as may by regulations be prescribed and such notification shall effect the registration of the firearm required by this section. Each importer, maker, and transferor of a firearm shall, prior to importing, making, or transferring a firearm, obtain authorization in such manner as required by this chapter or regulations issued thereunder to import, make, or transfer the firearm, and such authorization shall effect the registration of the firearm required by this section. (e)Proof of registration A person possessing a firearm registered as required by this section shall retain proof of registration which shall be made available to the Secretary upon request. =============== • 26 U.S.C. § 5861(b)–(f); https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/5861 It shall be unlawful for any person— (b)to receive or possess a firearm transferred to him in violation of the provisions of this chapter; or (c)to receive or possess a firearm made in violation of the provisions of this chapter; or (d)to receive or possess a firearm which is not registered to him in the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record; or (e)to transfer a firearm in violation of the provisions of this chapter; or (f)to make a firearm in violation of the provisions of this chapter; [s]or =============== • 27 C.F.R. § 479.62(a)–(d); https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-27/chapter-II/subchapter-B/part-479/subpart-E/subject-group-ECFR19dba6cc0eced3e/section-479.62 § 479.62 Applying to make. (a) General. No person shall make a firearm unless the person has filed with the Director a completed application on ATF Form 1 (5320.1), Application to Make and Register a Firearm, in duplicate, executed under the penalties of perjury, to make and register the firearm and has received the approval of the Director to make the firearm, which approval shall effectuate registration of the firearm to the applicant. If the applicant is not a licensed manufacturer, importer, or dealer qualified under this part and is a partnership, company (including a Limited Liability Company (LLC)), association, trust, or corporation, all information on the Form 1 application shall be furnished for each responsible person of the applicant (b) Preparation of ATF Form 1. All of the information called for on Form 1 shall be provided, including: (1) Type of application, i.e., tax-paid or tax-exempt. If making the firearm is taxable, the applicant must remit $200 with the application for a machine gun or destructive device, or $0 for all other firearms, in accordance with the instructions on the form; (2) The identity of the applicant. If an individual, the applicant shall provide the applicant's name, address, and date of birth, and also comply with the identification requirements prescribed in § 479.63(a). If other than an individual, the applicant shall provide its name, address, and employer identification number, if any, as well as the name and address of each responsible person. Each responsible person of the applicant also shall comply with the identification requirements prescribed in § 479.63(b); (3) A description of the firearm to be made by type; caliber, gauge, or size; model; length of barrel; serial number; other marks of identification; and the name and address of the original manufacturer (if the applicant is not the original manufacturer); (4) The applicant's Federal firearms license number (if any); (5) The applicant's special (occupational) tax stamp (if applicable); and (6) If the applicant (including, if other than an individual, any responsible person) is an alien admitted under a nonimmigrant visa, applicable documentation demonstrating that the nonimmigrant alien falls within an exception to 18 U.S.C. 922(g)(5)(B) under 18 U.S.C. 922(y)(2), or has obtained a waiver of that provision under 18 U.S.C. 922(y)(3). (c) Notification of chief law enforcement officer. Prior to the submission of the application to the Director, all applicants and responsible persons shall forward a completed copy of Form 1 or a completed copy of Form 5320.23, respectively, to the chief law enforcement officer of the locality in which the applicant or responsible person is located. The chief law enforcement officer is the local chief of police, county sheriff, head of the State police, or State or local district attorney or prosecutor. If the applicant is not a licensed manufacturer, importer, or dealer qualified under this part and is a partnership, company, association, or corporation, for purposes of this section, it is considered located at its principal office or principal place of business; if a trust, for purposes of this section, it is considered located at the primary location at which the firearm will be maintained. (d) Approval of Form 1. If the application is approved, the Director will affix a National Firearms Act stamp to the original application in the space provided therefor and properly cancel the stamp (see § 479.67). The approved application will then be returned to the applicant. =============== • 27 C.F.R. § 479.84(a)–(d). https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-27/chapter-II/subchapter-B/part-479/subpart-F/subject-group-ECFRb28151c5621805c/section-479.84 § 479.84 Applying to transfer. (a) General. Except as otherwise provided in this subpart, no firearm may be transferred in the United States unless an application, Form 4 (5320.4), Application for Tax Paid Transfer and Registration of Firearm, in duplicate, executed under the penalties of perjury, to transfer the firearm and register it to the transferee has been filed with and approved by the Director. The application shall be filed by the transferor. If the transferee is not a licensed manufacturer, importer, or dealer qualified under this part and is a partnership, company (including a Limited Liability Company (LLC)), association, trust, or corporation, all information on the Form 4 application shall be furnished for each responsible person of the transferee. (b) Preparation of ATF Form 4. All of the information called for on Form 4 shall be provided, including: (1) Type of firearm being transferred. The applicant must remit $200 with the application for a machine gun or destructive device, or $0 for all other firearms, in accordance with the instructions on the form; (2) The identity of the transferor by name and address and, if the transferor is other than a natural person, the title or legal status of the person executing the application in relation to the transferor; (3) The transferor's Federal firearms license number (if any); (4) The transferor's special (occupational) tax stamp (if any); (5) The identity of the transferee by name and address and, if the transferee is a person not qualified as a manufacturer, importer, or dealer under this part, the transferee shall be further identified in the manner prescribed in § 479.85; (6) The transferee's Federal firearms license number (if any); (7) The transferee's special (occupational) tax stamp (if applicable); and (8) A description of the firearm to be transferred by name and address of the manufacturer or importer (if known); caliber, gauge, or size; model; serial number; in the case of a short-barreled shotgun or a short-barreled rifle, the length of the barrel; in the case of a weapon made from a rifle or shotgun, the overall length of the weapon and the length of the barrel; and any other identifying marks on the firearm. In the event the firearm does not bear a serial number, the applicant shall obtain a serial number from ATF and shall stamp (impress) or otherwise conspicuously place such serial number on the firearm in a manner not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered, or removed. (9) If the transferee (including, if other than an individual, any responsible person) is an alien admitted under a nonimmigrant visa, applicable documentation demonstrating that the nonimmigrant alien falls within an exception to 18 U.S.C. 922(g)(5)(B) under 18 U.S.C. 922(y)(2), or has obtained a waiver of that provision under 18 U.S.C. 922(y)(3). (c) Notification of chief law enforcement officer. Prior to the submission of the application to the Director, all transferees and responsible persons shall forward a completed copy of Form 4 or a completed copy of Form 5320.23, respectively, to the chief law enforcement officer of the locality in which the transferee or responsible person is located. The chief law enforcement officer is the local chief of police, county sheriff, head of the State police, State or local district attorney or prosecutor. If the transferee is not a licensed manufacturer, importer, or dealer qualified under this part and is a partnership, company, association, or corporation, for purposes of this section, it is considered located at its principal office or principal place of business; if the transferee is not a licensed manufacturer, importer, or dealer qualified under this part and is a trust, for purposes of this section, it is considered located at the primary location at which the firearm will be maintained. (d) Approval of Form 4. If the application is approved, the Director will affix a National Firearms Act stamp to the original application in the space provided therefor and properly cancel the stamp (see § 479.87). The approved application will then be returned to the transferor. =/=/=/=/=/=/=/=/=/=/=/=/=/=/= In Jensen vs. ATF, the plaintiffs are: - John Jensen - Jeremy Neusch - David Lynn Smith - Hot Shots Custom, LLC - Texas State Rifle Association - FPC Action Foundation - Citizens Committee For The Right To Keep And Bear Arms The challenged NFA provisions are: • 26 U.S.C. § 5842(b); https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/5842 26 U.S. Code § 5842 - Identification of firearms (Including (a) here because (b) below refers to it) (a)Identification of firearms other than destructive devices Each manufacturer and importer and anyone making a firearm shall identify each firearm, other than a destructive device, manufactured, imported, or made by a serial number which may not be readily removed, obliterated, or altered, the name of the manufacturer, importer, or maker, and such other identification as the Secretary may by regulations prescribe. (b)Firearms without serial number Any person who possesses a firearm, other than a destructive device, which does not bear the serial number and other information required by subsection (a) of this section shall identify the firearm with a serial number assigned by the Secretary and any other information the Secretary may by regulations prescribe. =============== • 26 U.S.C. § 5861(i). https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/5861 26 U.S. Code § 5861 - Prohibited acts It shall be unlawful for any person— (i)to receive or possess a firearm which is not identified by a serial number as required by this chapter |
I can’t stand it to think my life is going so fast and I’m not really living it.
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Originally Posted By Cypher214: This is the exact same shit SS has been saying since day 1. It's not new information regardless of what sort of fancy graphic they put it on. Originally Posted By Cypher214: Originally Posted By HansohnBrothers: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/398162/IMG_0960-3813887.jpg So if it's not from Silencer Shop or the other plaintiffs directly, form 4 is required. And the same shit PSA was pushing out in their video that stuff was only good to go if your completer upper and lower only came from them. Nothing more than trying to capture market share since nothing in the ruling supports either assertion. |
Be a hard-ass. Every day should be like his first day in prison, and he's all alone in the yard without a shiv.
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Originally Posted By Dolomite: My good man: there is one reason - and one reason only - why the Federal Government wants your name attatched to some serial number on an object you possess. Originally Posted By Dolomite: Originally Posted By Hi-Vel: I don't have a need for a suppressor, but if I did, why wouldn't I just file the Form 4? The tax is zero, and the approval times haven't been bad lately. 
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Originally Posted By Villafuego: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/55482/Screenshot_2026-08-19_140151-3813872.png This seems...questionable. |
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Originally Posted By HansohnBrothers: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/398162/IMG_0960-3813887.jpg So if it's not from Silencer Shop or the other plaintiffs directly, form 4 is required. That is not what the court's order says. Not even close. Silencer Shop is engaging in blatant rent seeking. |
"If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." Romans 10:9 (ESV)
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Originally Posted By HansohnBrothers: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/398162/IMG_0960-3813887.jpg So if it's not from Silencer Shop or the other plaintiffs directly, form 4 is required. Nah |
Life member of CRPA. FPC contributor.
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Originally Posted By ridinshotgun: And the same shit PSA was pushing out in their video that stuff was only good to go if your completer upper and lower only came from them. Nothing more than trying to capture market share since nothing in the ruling supports either assertion. Originally Posted By ridinshotgun: Originally Posted By Cypher214: Originally Posted By HansohnBrothers: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/398162/IMG_0960-3813887.jpg So if it's not from Silencer Shop or the other plaintiffs directly, form 4 is required. And the same shit PSA was pushing out in their video that stuff was only good to go if your completer upper and lower only came from them. Nothing more than trying to capture market share since nothing in the ruling supports either assertion. While I appreciate the leg work this folks have put in--in my opinion, that is some shady shit to increase sales. |
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Originally Posted By Piledriver2235: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/419134/12485_png-3813899.JPG Truth. I was still in college in 1994, and the ban combined with Ruby Ridge and Waco definitely red pilled me. |
"If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." Romans 10:9 (ESV)