Posted: 6/6/2025 9:20:07 AM EDT
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Can someone here please explain to me at a 6th grade level (so I can hopefully understand): 1) Electricity is flow of electrons, yes? 2) Magnetic field force are photons (not electrons). Question: When a bar magnet (permanent, like the cow magnet or whatever) with its photon-based energy field is wiggled in a solenoid or near wires—electricity ( i.e. electrons & charge movement) happens. Do the EM field photons “kick” the outer electrons in the metal wire to a move to the next atom starting a domino-like electron shift down the wire? Or, ? I can regurgitate “answers” to these questions for tests, but I’ve wanted to truly understand this for decades, which is embarrassing since it’s like 1820-1880-ish science. I keep buying books, read them & have resorted to watching videos, but my brain just can’t grasp exactly how photons “make” electrons. Note that I know that’s NOT happening, but somewhere I decided to accept the incorrect as a means of taking/passing tests since I’m not smart enough to understand. If there’s a good book, video, series, etc I’m opened to trying to work this out, but after decades (I learned this back in the 1970s) I could use some help. Thanks! |
| Digging back into college physics, the thing that makes metals, metals is the free electrons that make them conductive. They don't need to escape atoms, they're already free and the magnetic field can move them. |
I know I'll never go home.
So set fire to your ships, and past regrets, and be free.
So set fire to your ships, and past regrets, and be free.
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Originally Posted By TNC: Digging back into college physics, the thing that makes metals, metals is the free electrons that make them conductive. They don't need to escape atoms, they're already free and the magnetic field can move them. So, the EM photon kicks the outer metal electron? If so, now I’m annoyed I made it more complicated. Son of a….Boson?!? 
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QED Try this...  Quantum Electrodynamics (QED) |
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1. Yes electrons move in the conductor back and forth alternating current or continuously direct current. The electrons voltage can be thought of as pressure. When closing a high voltage switch to energize electrical equipment you can see the electrons move across the air gap just before the switch closes. 2. Magnetic field force results by permanent magnetism or by electromagnetism. Protons and neutrons are not moving as electrons do under a magnetic field. 3. The magnetic field induces the electrons to move, back and forth (ac) or continuously (dc), as the magnet moves by the conductor. As the magnet moves by the conductor for dc you would have to have long wire☺Think of a straw full of tiny balls. The magnetic field moves the balls. One ball goes in as a ball goes out or for a.c. the balls move back and forth. |
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Originally Posted By 32ACP: Can someone here please explain to me at a 6th grade level (so I can hopefully understand): 1) Electricity is flow of electrons, yes? 2) Magnetic field force are photons (not electrons). Question: When a bar magnet (permanent, like the cow magnet or whatever) with its photon-based energy field is wiggled in a solenoid or near wires—electricity ( i.e. electrons & charge movement) happens. Do the EM field photons “kick” the outer electrons in the metal wire to a move to the next atom starting a domino-like electron shift down the wire? Or, ? I can regurgitate “answers” to these questions for tests, but I’ve wanted to truly understand this for decades, which is embarrassing since it’s like 1820-1880-ish science. I keep buying books, read them & have resorted to watching videos, but my brain just can’t grasp exactly how photons “make” electrons. Note that I know that’s NOT happening, but somewhere I decided to accept the incorrect as a means of taking/passing tests since I’m not smart enough to understand. If there’s a good book, video, series, etc I’m opened to trying to work this out, but after decades (I learned this back in the 1970s) I could use some help. Thanks! Photons have nothing to do with electrical flow - they're light. Notice the H. There's also protons, with a R. PRotons are what make the core of an atom (essentially what the element is), electrons orbit the core. That's what makes magnetic fields. AFAIK there isn't a "particle" that makes a magnetic field, at least that we've found. But, I haven't taken physics in 20 years... |
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Thank you. “Virtual photons” not “fields?!?” 
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Originally Posted By NotIssued: Photons have nothing to do with electrical flow - they're light. Notice the H. There's also protons, with a R. PRotons are what make the core of an atom (essentially what the element is), electrons orbit the core. That's what makes magnetic fields. AFAIK there isn't a "particle" that makes a magnetic field, at least that we've found. But, I haven't taken physics in 20 years... Originally Posted By NotIssued: Originally Posted By 32ACP: Can someone here please explain to me at a 6th grade level (so I can hopefully understand): 1) Electricity is flow of electrons, yes? 2) Magnetic field force are photons (not electrons). Question: When a bar magnet (permanent, like the cow magnet or whatever) with its photon-based energy field is wiggled in a solenoid or near wires—electricity ( i.e. electrons & charge movement) happens. Do the EM field photons “kick” the outer electrons in the metal wire to a move to the next atom starting a domino-like electron shift down the wire? Or, ? I can regurgitate “answers” to these questions for tests, but I’ve wanted to truly understand this for decades, which is embarrassing since it’s like 1820-1880-ish science. I keep buying books, read them & have resorted to watching videos, but my brain just can’t grasp exactly how photons “make” electrons. Note that I know that’s NOT happening, but somewhere I decided to accept the incorrect as a means of taking/passing tests since I’m not smart enough to understand. If there’s a good book, video, series, etc I’m opened to trying to work this out, but after decades (I learned this back in the 1970s) I could use some help. Thanks! Photons have nothing to do with electrical flow - they're light. Notice the H. There's also protons, with a R. PRotons are what make the core of an atom (essentially what the element is), electrons orbit the core. That's what makes magnetic fields. AFAIK there isn't a "particle" that makes a magnetic field, at least that we've found. But, I haven't taken physics in 20 years... Well…that shows in your erroneous post. Photons are the “elementary particle ” behind EMF, visual spectrum, radio waves, gamma wave, ad nauseum. I’m old as shit & photons as EMF was taught in my day. Go clean the blackboards, erasers then write “I will not talk bad about bosons” 100 times & clean that blackboard again. |
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Originally Posted By NotIssued: Photons have nothing to do with electrical flow - they're light. Notice the H. There's also protons, with a R. PRotons are what make the core of an atom (essentially what the element is), electrons orbit the core. That's what makes magnetic fields. AFAIK there isn't a "particle" that makes a magnetic field, at least that we've found. But, I haven't taken physics in 20 years... Originally Posted By NotIssued: Originally Posted By 32ACP: Can someone here please explain to me at a 6th grade level (so I can hopefully understand): 1) Electricity is flow of electrons, yes? 2) Magnetic field force are photons (not electrons). Question: When a bar magnet (permanent, like the cow magnet or whatever) with its photon-based energy field is wiggled in a solenoid or near wires—electricity ( i.e. electrons & charge movement) happens. Do the EM field photons “kick” the outer electrons in the metal wire to a move to the next atom starting a domino-like electron shift down the wire? Or, ? I can regurgitate “answers” to these questions for tests, but I’ve wanted to truly understand this for decades, which is embarrassing since it’s like 1820-1880-ish science. I keep buying books, read them & have resorted to watching videos, but my brain just can’t grasp exactly how photons “make” electrons. Note that I know that’s NOT happening, but somewhere I decided to accept the incorrect as a means of taking/passing tests since I’m not smart enough to understand. If there’s a good book, video, series, etc I’m opened to trying to work this out, but after decades (I learned this back in the 1970s) I could use some help. Thanks! Photons have nothing to do with electrical flow - they're light. Notice the H. There's also protons, with a R. PRotons are what make the core of an atom (essentially what the element is), electrons orbit the core. That's what makes magnetic fields. AFAIK there isn't a "particle" that makes a magnetic field, at least that we've found. But, I haven't taken physics in 20 years... Virtual photons - explained in the video. |
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Originally Posted By 32ACP: Thank you. “Virtual photons” not “fields?!?” Originally Posted By 32ACP: Thank you. “Virtual photons” not “fields?!?” Yeah, imagine being smart enough to figure out stuff like that. I'm not even smart enough to imagine being smart enough. |
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Originally Posted By ske714: Yeah, imagine being smart enough to figure out stuff like that. I'm not even smart enough to imagine being smart enough. Originally Posted By ske714: Originally Posted By 32ACP: Thank you. “Virtual photons” not “fields?!?” Yeah, imagine being smart enough to figure out stuff like that. I'm not even smart enough to imagine being smart enough. THANK YOU! This is exactly how I feel. I get the explanation, well…”virtually,” I guess….but our language doesn’t have a word for “deep understanding” vs “acquaintance/awareness” of an idea and am reviewing the Professor series (and that annoying song!)! |
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When you reach the point of dealing with things at this scale, it's impossible to actually see what is happening. There are explanations offered in theory and ways to calculate the results of various effects and interactions. Various physics hypotheses exist to explain how the effects happen, but we can't actually see them. In radio sometimes people get confused at how to do something and are exasperated... "what comes out of an antenna". In a microsecond you go from basic grade school level arts-and-crafts to post-graduate theoretical physics. Rather than drown in quantum physics, most of the time it's better to just stick with the observable and useful effects and how to utilize them in the real world. The bizzaro world of quantum physics is the attempt to make the behavior of things that we can't see or understand how they work, be predictable so that we can make use of them. At the scale of individual particles in particle physics, things do not work in the way that the visible universe at human scale appears to work. |
This is...a clue - Pat_Rogers
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I'm not adequately aluminumized for this thread. - gonzo_beyondo
CO, MI, OR - Please lobby your legislators to end discrimination against non-resident CCW permit holders
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Originally Posted By Gamma762: When you reach the point of dealing with things at this scale, it's impossible to actually see what is happening. There are explanations offered in theory and ways to calculate the results of various effects and interactions. Various physics hypotheses exist to explain how the effects happen, but we can't actually see them. In radio sometimes people get confused at how to do something and are exasperated... "what comes out of an antenna". In a microsecond you go from basic grade school level arts-and-crafts to post-graduate theoretical physics. Rather than drown in quantum physics, most of the time it's better to just stick with the observable and useful effects and how to utilize them in the real world. No matter how smart you are, or how deep your understanding, every answer leaves you with new questions. |
9 lives - 9 pellets... Coincidence?
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Originally Posted By Gamma762: When you reach the point of dealing with things at this scale, it's impossible to actually see what is happening. There are explanations offered in theory and ways to calculate the results of various effects and interactions. Various physics hypotheses exist to explain how the effects happen, but we can't actually see them. In radio sometimes people get confused at how to do something and are exasperated... "what comes out of an antenna". In a microsecond you go from basic grade school level arts-and-crafts to post-graduate theoretical physics. Rather than drown in quantum physics, most of the time it's better to just stick with the observable and useful effects and how to utilize them in the real world. The bizzaro world of quantum physics is the attempt to make the behavior of things that we can't see or understand how they work, be predictable so that we can make use of them. At the scale of individual particles in particle physics, things do not work in the way that the visible universe at human scale appears to work. Well, the mass of the sun & other planets were mind-boggling, so I thought I’d follow Feynman’s advice on “plenty of room at the bottom…” but it’s still tough to get my brain around either. I guess I should go check on my cat, Schrödinger, who…well, you know I will or won’t be able to…never mind….  |
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Think you're so smart? "Photons are the smallest possible particles of electromagnetic energy and therefore also the smallest possible particles of light. Photons can travel at the speed of light because they have no mass (thanks to relativity). Photons also have no charge" Photons have nothing to do with ELECTRICITY flow. That's electrons, as the OP states. We don't plug in our fiber optic toaster ..... Link 2 "A magnetic field is defined as a force field created by moving electric charges." Thus, since a photon has no charge, it creates no field. Now, yes, photons can interact with things, and those things create the magnetic field. Link 3, not a very good one " It turns out that the photons which make up a static electric or magnetic field are "virtual" -- their energy and momentum doesn’t satisfy the relationship for "real" photons -- E=p*c (E is energy, p=momentum, and c is the speed of light). " I've not heard the term "virtual" before, but as noted above, not the same as "real" photons. So I may not be 100% right, but I'm not 100% wrong. And to be honest, I think we're splitting hairs on some terminology. |
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I read the thread and links a couple of times and am stuck. As an old school LMR radio guy with "photons" implanted in my brain as light portion of the RF spectrum, I am having a hard time understanding how photons are RF. So, are they saying photons are anything that is not an electron? TT So......... just read a Reddit thread on it and wow. I feel old an dout of date. |
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Electromagnetic radiation is both particle and waves... or at least that's the theory... depending on the situation, physicists can approach a problem using one or the other. When it comes to radio/RF it's generally a lot easier to understand the behavior as waves versus trying to understand the behavior of a shower of photons emanating from an antenna, or what the mechanism is behind waggling electrons creating that shower of photons based on the relationship of the pattern speed of the waggling in comparison to the size of the conductor. |
This is...a clue - Pat_Rogers
I'm not adequately aluminumized for this thread. - gonzo_beyondo
CO, MI, OR - Please lobby your legislators to end discrimination against non-resident CCW permit holders
I'm not adequately aluminumized for this thread. - gonzo_beyondo
CO, MI, OR - Please lobby your legislators to end discrimination against non-resident CCW permit holders
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Originally Posted By Gamma762: When it comes to radio/RF it's generally a lot easier to understand the behavior as waves versus trying to understand the behavior of a shower of photons emanating from an antenna, or what the mechanism is behind waggling electrons creating that shower of photons based on the relationship of the pattern speed of the waggling in comparison to the size of the conductor. The visual this creates is spectacular! Thank you. TT |