Posted: 6/19/2024 11:11:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Echd][Edited]
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I've had a dust deputy and a 55 gallon drum sitting in a corner in the shop for the longest time, just waiting for the motivation to hook everything up. I set it up the past couple of days, a 6 inch intake from my shop fox 2 HP (really 1.5) DC with a 12 inch impeller and it discharges into a Donaldson truck filter with a 5 gallon bucket attached with a gamma seal. I've used these things before, but they always amaze me. It's sort of fun to watch the debris spin around inside the top of the cyclone long after you cut off the DC. I sucked up probably 15 lbs of wood chips, shavings, and what I thought would be ultra fines (the leavings inside of my tablesaw and a bunch of sawdust from my miter and bandsaw). In the end, I had maybe an ounce of fine dust make its way into my five gallon collection bucket. That's crazy efficient. And now I don't have to use that godawful bag clamp apparatus that goes on most factory dust collectors. I just pop the lid off my 55 gallon drum and dump it in my neighbor's driveway late at night (he'll never know who did it). If you use a dust collector or even a shop vac and don't have a dust deputy, get you one. And no, a home made thien baffle or that silly jet cycloidal separator is nowhere near as efficient. |
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Second this. My HF dust collector, super dust deputy, 32gal trash can, and pleated filter made a world of difference in my shop dust/chip management. ETA: I also have a standard dust deputy on a 5gal bucket connected to a shop vac. This is where I started, and after seeing how efficient it was at keeping dust out of the vacuum, I built the bigger system. |
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I use one on a five gallon bucket in my workbench. Attached File |
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I have one attached to a 5 gallon bucket. It works great, when I feel like using it. Next big tool, biggest cyclone dust collection system I can power. |
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Yeah I set up a two stage cyclone with a Dust Deputy last year when I needed to build my doors. Way, WAY easier to dispose of all the chips and dust. I still have the bag on my DC but it never fills up, I mean not even a half inch of crap in the bottom. Super easy to take the lid off my fiber drum, dump it in my green organic recycling bin, and get back to work. One day I will need streamline it to make it more efficient and have a smaller foot print. Also want to add a small vibration motor to the filer to knock off the dust. A note about that. I removed and cleaned the filter after about a year and holy shit the ultra fine dust wouldn't stop coming out of it. Knock it over and over, vacuumed it over and over (another cyclone with HEPA set up), used a blower on it over and over in the back yard. Still didn't get "clean" but it was clean enough. The vibration motor will hopefully reduce the caked on dust within the pleats. I've noticed recently my table saw doesn't seem to be extracting saw dust like it used to. The two stage dust collector set up seems to be working as it was, so may have something in the saw obstructing it. |
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Originally Posted By Echd: I've had a dust deputy and a 55 gallon drum sitting in a corner in the shop for the longest time, just waiting for the motivation to hook everything up. I set it up the past couple of days, a 6 inch intake from my shop fox 2 HP (really 1.5) DC with a 12 inch impeller and it discharges into a Donaldson truck filter with a 5 gallon bucket attached with a gamma seal. I've used these things before, but they always amaze me. It's sort of fun to watch the debris spin around inside the top of the cyclone long after you cut off the DC. I sucked up probably 15 lbs of wood chips, shavings, and what I thought would be ultra fines (the leavings inside of my tablesaw and a bunch of sawdust from my miter and bandsaw). In the end, I had maybe an ounce of fine dust make its way into my five gallon collection bucket. That's crazy efficient. And now I don't have to use that godawful bag clamp apparatus that goes on most factory dust collectors. I just pop the lid off my 55 gallon drum and dump it in my neighbor's driveway late at night (he'll never know who did it). If you use a dust collector or even a shop vac and don't have a dust deputy, get you one. And no, a home made thien baffle or that silly jet cycloidal separator is nowhere near as efficient. You CAN buy much, much better bags and bag clamping stuff for those type collectors without having to dick around with any sort of cyclone attachment junk.  This bottom collection bag I had AFF make for me will likely last forever -  Beats the hell out of any of the plastic collection bag crap and goofy spring clamp shit commonly found with them. There really is such a thing as non breathable heavy canvas collections bags out there... On top of that I will run either a bag or canister depending on the ceiling height and what I want to be sucking up at the time. A proper bag can be a lot better than a canister depending on what a guy is doing.  (that picture is of the bag when it is in operation. A guy can simply look at it or feel it and quickly determine the state of the 'filtering' that it is doing and how much air it is able to flow in that particular state at that time - stuff you cant easily SEE with a canister type OR be able to 'adjust' as easily)  Not knocking cyclone type filters here but suggesting that they can be made 'more gooder' if proper bags are also employed.   |
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I converted my HF dust collector into a 2 stage with a home made baffle/separator. It dumps into a 32 gallon plastic trash can that I just slide out and dump. Its connected to my CNC router and table saw. In the 7 years since I did the conversion, I've emptied the trashcan countless times. My original chip bag maybe has a gallon or two of sawdust in it.
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Originally Posted By Aaron56: You CAN buy much, much better bags and bag clamping stuff for those type collectors without having to dick around with any sort of cyclone attachment junk. This bottom collection bag I had AFF make for me will likely last forever - https://i.imgur.com/igkmUOU.jpg Beats the hell out of any of the plastic collection bag crap and goofy spring clamp shit commonly found with them. There really is such a thing as non breathable heavy canvas collections bags out there... On top of that I will run either a bag or canister depending on the ceiling height and what I want to be sucking up at the time. A proper bag can be a lot better than a canister depending on what a guy is doing. https://i.imgur.com/nI8YnG1.jpg (that picture is of the bag when it is in operation. A guy can simply look at it or feel it and quickly determine the state of the 'filtering' that it is doing and how much air it is able to flow in that particular state at that time - stuff you cant easily SEE with a canister type OR be able to 'adjust' as easily) https://i.imgur.com/FouJ95X.jpg Not knocking cyclone type filters here but suggesting that they can be made 'more gooder' if proper bags are also employed. https://i.imgur.com/FiW6F6i.jpg https://i.imgur.com/mxJitX4.jpg Originally Posted By Aaron56: Originally Posted By Echd: I've had a dust deputy and a 55 gallon drum sitting in a corner in the shop for the longest time, just waiting for the motivation to hook everything up. I set it up the past couple of days, a 6 inch intake from my shop fox 2 HP (really 1.5) DC with a 12 inch impeller and it discharges into a Donaldson truck filter with a 5 gallon bucket attached with a gamma seal. I've used these things before, but they always amaze me. It's sort of fun to watch the debris spin around inside the top of the cyclone long after you cut off the DC. I sucked up probably 15 lbs of wood chips, shavings, and what I thought would be ultra fines (the leavings inside of my tablesaw and a bunch of sawdust from my miter and bandsaw). In the end, I had maybe an ounce of fine dust make its way into my five gallon collection bucket. That's crazy efficient. And now I don't have to use that godawful bag clamp apparatus that goes on most factory dust collectors. I just pop the lid off my 55 gallon drum and dump it in my neighbor's driveway late at night (he'll never know who did it). If you use a dust collector or even a shop vac and don't have a dust deputy, get you one. And no, a home made thien baffle or that silly jet cycloidal separator is nowhere near as efficient. You CAN buy much, much better bags and bag clamping stuff for those type collectors without having to dick around with any sort of cyclone attachment junk. This bottom collection bag I had AFF make for me will likely last forever - https://i.imgur.com/igkmUOU.jpg Beats the hell out of any of the plastic collection bag crap and goofy spring clamp shit commonly found with them. There really is such a thing as non breathable heavy canvas collections bags out there... On top of that I will run either a bag or canister depending on the ceiling height and what I want to be sucking up at the time. A proper bag can be a lot better than a canister depending on what a guy is doing. https://i.imgur.com/nI8YnG1.jpg (that picture is of the bag when it is in operation. A guy can simply look at it or feel it and quickly determine the state of the 'filtering' that it is doing and how much air it is able to flow in that particular state at that time - stuff you cant easily SEE with a canister type OR be able to 'adjust' as easily) https://i.imgur.com/FouJ95X.jpg Not knocking cyclone type filters here but suggesting that they can be made 'more gooder' if proper bags are also employed. https://i.imgur.com/FiW6F6i.jpg https://i.imgur.com/mxJitX4.jpg Your statements aren't really in agreement. The bag vs canister is really just a question of chip collection and essentially unimportant, as they just hold the chips and dust, and the cyclones are unrelated to canister filters (there is no such thing as a cyclone style canister filter as they are unrelated, and you could use a bag with a canister if you wanted with no issues). Whatever you use as your dump bin is ultimately immaterial. Filter bags are either a health hazard for the ones with poor ratings or less effective than canisters as they simply do not allow the same amount of airflow. I'm not likely to go feel of the bag to see if suction is up to par when I could feel the airflow near an inlet or observe it in action instead. It's not really a matter of contention that bags flow less than canisters, and I cannot think of any situation where I would want less airflow unless I was popping breakers or burning up motors. A separator does cost you some airflow but a canister will more than make up the difference compared a bag. Regardless of the type of filter used a cyclone will undoubtedly increase the life of that filter and/or time between cleanings, be it a bag or canister. I can't think of any scenario outside one one where space or cost is a major issue where a two stage separator doesn't beat a DC without one. |
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Originally Posted By Echd: Filter bags are either a health hazard for the ones with poor ratings or less effective than canisters as they simply do not allow the same amount of airflow. I'm not likely to go feel of the bag to see if suction is up to par when I could feel the airflow near an inlet or observe it in action instead. It's not really a matter of contention that bags flow less than canisters, and I cannot think of any situation where I would want less airflow unless I was... They are adjustable. In the same exact way that dirty canister filters are... You don't get more particles floating around in the air as the filter gets properly 'loaded'. You get less as you load the filter. Guess what happens to that airflow as things get loaded and constricted?  |
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Originally Posted By Aaron56: They are adjustable. In the same exact way that dirty canister filters are... You don't get more particles floating around in the air as the filter gets properly 'loaded'. You get less as you load the filter. Guess what happens to that airflow as things get loaded and constricted? I'm not sure any of your posts have a point. Filters of all sorts can get clogged, thats normal, expected, and designed for. Cartridges style filters have massively higher surface area and therefore massively higher volumes of air can move through them compared to a bag. Why would I want an adjustable filter unless I needed to throttle the motor due to blowing breakers? Even then I would rather just choke the intake. |
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Originally Posted By Echd: I'm not sure any of your posts have a point. Filters of all sorts can get clogged, thats normal, expected, and designed for. Cartridges style filters have massively higher surface area and therefore massively higher volumes of air can move through them compared to a bag. Why would I want an adjustable filter unless I needed to throttle the motor due to blowing breakers? Even then I would rather just choke the intake. The more you comment the more I can tell that you don't do this stuff for a living and never have. You most certainly don't do (have not done) a 'lot' of collecting anything (chips or fine dusts) over a long period of time. While a canister filter might be the way to go for a guy sucking up small volumes of mostly chips in a garage type shop (low ceiling) - You will be hard pressed to find any bigger shops doing the same. Yes, You might come across an occasional canister type dust collector here or there in whatever shop connected to a mostly chip making tool but very unlikely to see that on anything that produces large volumes of fines that need to be collected. Why do you suppose that is??? Notice the floor to bottom of bag height of those bags hanging from that 12 bag baghouse? Those are 12' long AFF bags and hung where the bottom are about roll up trash can height from the floor for a reason... Yes, there are heavy duty American zippers on the bottoms of those bags that will last forever even if abused with the weight on top of them when a guy does not empty his bags every single time he uses his sander.  The sander that collector mostly serves has 3 separate heads that 'if' you use all 3 at the same time WILL make for a LOT of fine dust what will need removing.    Notice how even when I am using my smaller sander with way less dust collection 'power' connected to it that I am not dicking around trying to use canisters here?  Why is that? Notice how clean the girls are here?  How are those coats so clean if I am not catching and collecting most of the dust and such that I am making?   Please share pictures of how you do things with your canister filters and educate me as to how I can improve in any way. |
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Originally Posted By Aaron56: The more you comment the more I can tell that you don't do this stuff for a living and never have. You most certainly don't do (have not done) a 'lot' of collecting anything (chips or fine dusts) over a long period of time. While a canister filter might be the way to go for a guy sucking up small volumes of mostly chips in a garage type shop (low ceiling) - You will be hard pressed to find any bigger shops doing the same. Yes, You might come across an occasional canister type dust collector here or there in whatever shop connected to a mostly chip making tool but very unlikely to see that on anything that produces large volumes of fines that need to be collected. Why do you suppose that is??? https://i.imgur.com/mxJitX4.jpg Notice the floor to bottom of bag height of those bags hanging from that 12 bag baghouse? Those are 12' long AFF bags and hung where the bottom are about roll up trash can height from the floor for a reason... Yes, there are heavy duty American zippers on the bottoms of those bags that will last forever even if abused with the weight on top of them when a guy does not empty his bags every single time he uses his sander. The sander that collector mostly serves has 3 separate heads that 'if' you use all 3 at the same time WILL make for a LOT of fine dust what will need removing. https://i.imgur.com/5QvuXyg.jpg https://i.imgur.com/rFRmyRi.jpg https://i.imgur.com/cLetaa7.jpg Notice how even when I am using my smaller sander with way less dust collection 'power' connected to it that I am not dicking around trying to use canisters here? https://i.imgur.com/HaetOHI.jpg Why is that? Notice how clean the girls are here? https://i.imgur.com/aDtEyS5.jpg How are those coats so clean if I am not catching and collecting most of the dust and such that I am making? https://i.imgur.com/o4E04wD.jpg Please share pictures of how you do things with your canister filters and educate me as to how I can improve in any way. In fairness, and I'm not looking to start a pissing match, but you're comparing your near industrial level dust collection strategy in a thread about dust deputy, which is truly a very small shop solution to prolonging filter life in small canister or single bag systems by pulling out all but the finest particles. I think what Echd was reflecting on, or at least what I took from it, was that in a given footprint, a pleated filter has the ability to have more surface area and thus, can have more airflow at a finer mesh within the confines of that footprint. In the context of a small shop... mine is about 20 x 25... there's no room for more than a single stack collector or something you can configure under another tool, table, or bench. What I don't think he was saying was that pleated filters always outperform bags. If you can have enough bags or big enough bags with fine enough mesh, of course you can filter about anything you want. That's simply impractical for someone that would also be interested in a thread about a dust deputy. My DD is run from a 6 hp shop vac with a bag in it. After a year I checked my bag and it's almost empty. Maybe 2 cups of fine dust in there. I've dumped the 15 gallon "drum" my DD is bolted to a dozen times at least. I get that it might seem hokey to a guy with a professional shop. I had the benefit of access to such a setup once upon a time when I was a PM. It was great! It's just not everyone's reality. No one's wrong here, you're just comparing apples to orange orchards. |
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Originally Posted By Homesteader375: In fairness, and I'm not looking to start a pissing match, but you're comparing your near industrial level dust collection strategy in a thread about dust deputy, which is truly a very small shop solution to prolonging filter life in small canister or single bag systems by pulling out all but the finest particles. I think what Echd was reflecting on, or at least what I took from it, was that in a given footprint, a pleated filter has the ability to have more surface area and thus, can have more airflow at a finer mesh within the confines of that footprint. In the context of a small shop... mine is about 20 x 25... there's no room for more than a single stack collector or something you can configure under another tool, table, or bench. What I don't think he was saying was that pleated filters always outperform bags. If you can have enough bags or big enough bags with fine enough mesh, of course you can filter about anything you want. That's simply impractical for someone that would also be interested in a thread about a dust deputy. My DD is run from a 6 hp shop vac with a bag in it. After a year I checked my bag and it's almost empty. Maybe 2 cups of fine dust in there. I've dumped the 15 gallon "drum" my DD is bolted to a dozen times at least. I get that it might seem hokey to a guy with a professional shop. I had the benefit of access to such a setup once upon a time when I was a PM. It was great! It's just not everyone's reality. No one's wrong here, you're just comparing apples to orange orchards. Originally Posted By Homesteader375: Originally Posted By Aaron56: The more you comment the more I can tell that you don't do this stuff for a living and never have. You most certainly don't do (have not done) a 'lot' of collecting anything (chips or fine dusts) over a long period of time. While a canister filter might be the way to go for a guy sucking up small volumes of mostly chips in a garage type shop (low ceiling) - You will be hard pressed to find any bigger shops doing the same. Yes, You might come across an occasional canister type dust collector here or there in whatever shop connected to a mostly chip making tool but very unlikely to see that on anything that produces large volumes of fines that need to be collected. Why do you suppose that is??? https://i.imgur.com/mxJitX4.jpg Notice the floor to bottom of bag height of those bags hanging from that 12 bag baghouse? Those are 12' long AFF bags and hung where the bottom are about roll up trash can height from the floor for a reason... Yes, there are heavy duty American zippers on the bottoms of those bags that will last forever even if abused with the weight on top of them when a guy does not empty his bags every single time he uses his sander. The sander that collector mostly serves has 3 separate heads that 'if' you use all 3 at the same time WILL make for a LOT of fine dust what will need removing. https://i.imgur.com/5QvuXyg.jpg https://i.imgur.com/rFRmyRi.jpg https://i.imgur.com/cLetaa7.jpg Notice how even when I am using my smaller sander with way less dust collection 'power' connected to it that I am not dicking around trying to use canisters here? https://i.imgur.com/HaetOHI.jpg Why is that? Notice how clean the girls are here? https://i.imgur.com/aDtEyS5.jpg How are those coats so clean if I am not catching and collecting most of the dust and such that I am making? https://i.imgur.com/o4E04wD.jpg Please share pictures of how you do things with your canister filters and educate me as to how I can improve in any way. In fairness, and I'm not looking to start a pissing match, but you're comparing your near industrial level dust collection strategy in a thread about dust deputy, which is truly a very small shop solution to prolonging filter life in small canister or single bag systems by pulling out all but the finest particles. I think what Echd was reflecting on, or at least what I took from it, was that in a given footprint, a pleated filter has the ability to have more surface area and thus, can have more airflow at a finer mesh within the confines of that footprint. In the context of a small shop... mine is about 20 x 25... there's no room for more than a single stack collector or something you can configure under another tool, table, or bench. What I don't think he was saying was that pleated filters always outperform bags. If you can have enough bags or big enough bags with fine enough mesh, of course you can filter about anything you want. That's simply impractical for someone that would also be interested in a thread about a dust deputy. My DD is run from a 6 hp shop vac with a bag in it. After a year I checked my bag and it's almost empty. Maybe 2 cups of fine dust in there. I've dumped the 15 gallon "drum" my DD is bolted to a dozen times at least. I get that it might seem hokey to a guy with a professional shop. I had the benefit of access to such a setup once upon a time when I was a PM. It was great! It's just not everyone's reality. No one's wrong here, you're just comparing apples to orange orchards. It's like you read my mind and wrote what I was going to say. |
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Originally Posted By Homesteader375: In fairness, and I'm not looking to start a pissing match, but you're comparing your near industrial level dust collection strategy in a thread about dust deputy, which is truly a very small shop solution to prolonging filter life in small canister or single bag systems by pulling out all but the finest particles. I think what Echd was reflecting on, or at least what I took from it, was that in a given footprint, a pleated filter has the ability to have more surface area and thus, can have more airflow at a finer mesh within the confines of that footprint. In the context of a small shop... mine is about 20 x 25... there's no room for more than a single stack collector or something you can configure under another tool, table, or bench. What I don't think he was saying was that pleated filters always outperform bags. If you can have enough bags or big enough bags with fine enough mesh, of course you can filter about anything you want. That's simply impractical for someone that would also be interested in a thread about a dust deputy. My DD is run from a 6 hp shop vac with a bag in it. After a year I checked my bag and it's almost empty. Maybe 2 cups of fine dust in there. I've dumped the 15 gallon "drum" my DD is bolted to a dozen times at least. I get that it might seem hokey to a guy with a professional shop. I had the benefit of access to such a setup once upon a time when I was a PM. It was great! It's just not everyone's reality. No one's wrong here, you're just comparing apples to orange orchards. Precisely. This is like going into a thread about crate engines and talking about the diesel electric motor on a train. The vast majority of people here don't do this in an industrial capacity, nor are the lessons of an industrial cabinet shop or what have you really all that relevant to a hobbyist or craft woodworker. If the answer to the mess of a dust collector is hanging a dozen cloth bags from the ceiling, most people will not be using a dust collector. Regardless, a canister will- and I suppose I will qualify it- flow far more air than a similarly sized bag will. If you want to have a forest of bags in a baghouse in another room, yeah, sure, they can match canisters, at least sort of. I still don't know of any bags with anywhere near the filtration quality of a pleated can for superfines, the stuff we're actually really worried about. if you're sucking up something that wrecks paper in cartridges a lot, then sure, thats a perfectly valid reason to use less fine bags as well. |
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Originally Posted By Homesteader375: In fairness, and I'm not looking to start a pissing match, but you're comparing your near industrial level dust collection strategy in a thread about dust deputy, which is truly a very small shop solution to prolonging filter life in small canister or single bag systems by pulling out all but the finest particles. I think what Echd was reflecting on, or at least what I took from it, was that in a given footprint, a pleated filter has the ability to have more surface area and thus, can have more airflow at a finer mesh within the confines of that footprint. In the context of a small shop... mine is about 20 x 25... there's no room for more than a single stack collector or something you can configure under another tool, table, or bench. A proper bag is going to last forever and filter however you want it to. (that stuff really is adjustable) Adding dust deputy stuff to a tiny collector is going to slow things down and make it worse in most cases. |
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Originally Posted By Aaron56: A proper bag is going to last forever and filter however you want it to. (that stuff really is adjustable) Adding dust deputy stuff to a tiny collector is going to slow things down and make it worse in most cases. I don't know. My setup is a little different but, my vac has a bag in it. My DD is capturing better than 99% of my waste. I haven't run my fines through seives to see what actually gets through but it's damned little. 15 gallons @ 16 cups per for roughly 12 times I empty that yearly is 2880 cups of debris for 2 cups of fine dust that made it into the vac bag. Does it slow anything down? Idk. Over 15' of 2" hose? I reckon it has to have some velocity cost. It also saves on loss of suction due to clogged filtration media. In my situation I see it as an overall gain. Without it, I was not only filling my vac 3x as fast but suction dropped off pretty quickly. My next upgrade is probably a Shopfox 2hp DC. I have to make some space for it. At 5.4 cf of volume I'll see how it works without a separator. I don't think the DD is a perfect solution for every situation. It is a great solution for a lot of situations. |
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Originally Posted By Echd: I still don't know of any bags with anywhere near the filtration quality of a pleated can for superfines, the stuff we're actually really worried about.. Nope. You don't know anything about quality bags. Your experience is likely limited to whatever chinese junk came with your china DC so you base all of your 'knowledge' on that. (that and a few youtube videos of guys doing random shit in their garages made you an 'expert') Why I mentioned a company you can contact so you could learn more... If you tell them how much air flow you need under whatever circumstances and how clean you want the air coming out - They will do the math for you and get you sorted out. Am sure there are several other similar companies that can and will do the same... |
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Originally Posted By Homesteader375: I reckon it has to have some velocity cost. It also saves on loss of suction due to clogged filtration media. In my situation I see it as an overall gain. Without it, I was not only filling my vac 3x as fast but suction dropped off pretty quickly. My next upgrade is probably a Shopfox 2hp DC. I have to make some space for it. At 5.4 cf of volume I'll see how it works without a separator. I don't think the DD is a perfect solution for every situation. It is a great solution for a lot of situations. Not suggesting this shit matters but...  Has got to be better than -   That and making sure there are no leaks anywhere you can help it. |
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Originally Posted By Aaron56: If you tell them how much air flow you need under whatever circumstances and how clean you want the air coming out - They will do the math for you and get you sorted out. No matter who it is, there eventually comes a point where you run into the laws of physics. Remember that the comparison of bag vs canister is always within the context of elements of the same volume. If you have space constraints that limit the size of your filter element, there comes a point where a bag filter cannot meet the combined requirements of airflow and filtration within the restricted volume. A canister filter may, as it provides vastly more surface area for filter media. This allows for higher airflow while maintaining sufficient filtration, and it can maintain more airflow for longer periods before cleaning or exchanging the element. That is all that is trying to be said. A bag filter may be sufficient for your needs, especially if you can run a larger one. But to say that a bag filter is capable of providing more airflow with the same filtration (or better) than a pleated canister filter of comparable quality is nonsense. |
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Originally Posted By Walkure: No matter who it is, there eventually comes a point where you run into the laws of physics. Remember that the comparison of bag vs canister is always within the context of elements of the same volume. If you have space constraints that limit the size of your filter element, there comes a point where a bag filter cannot meet the combined requirements of airflow and filtration within the restricted volume. A canister filter may, as it provides vastly more surface area for filter media. This allows for higher airflow while maintaining sufficient filtration, and it can maintain more airflow for longer periods before cleaning or exchanging the element. That is all that is trying to be said. A bag filter may be sufficient for your needs, especially if you can run a larger one. But to say that a bag filter is capable of providing more airflow with the same filtration (or better) than a pleated canister filter of comparable quality is nonsense. Originally Posted By Walkure: Originally Posted By Aaron56: If you tell them how much air flow you need under whatever circumstances and how clean you want the air coming out - They will do the math for you and get you sorted out. No matter who it is, there eventually comes a point where you run into the laws of physics. Remember that the comparison of bag vs canister is always within the context of elements of the same volume. If you have space constraints that limit the size of your filter element, there comes a point where a bag filter cannot meet the combined requirements of airflow and filtration within the restricted volume. A canister filter may, as it provides vastly more surface area for filter media. This allows for higher airflow while maintaining sufficient filtration, and it can maintain more airflow for longer periods before cleaning or exchanging the element. That is all that is trying to be said. A bag filter may be sufficient for your needs, especially if you can run a larger one. But to say that a bag filter is capable of providing more airflow with the same filtration (or better) than a pleated canister filter of comparable quality is nonsense. Well said. I don't know why this thread was turned into a pissing match. The VAST majority of woodworkers don't have commercial or industrial grade equipment and machines, in a space to match. Most of us work out of our garage. We work with what we have, to include space, time, budget, skill level, and a host of other factors. I run a little shop out of my garage. I have a 4 year old and another about to be born. I work a full time day job that has nothing to do with woodworking. I have a mortgage, car payments, utilities, food, etc. I need to pay for first, before my woodworking. I am of amateur/intermediate skill level. Given all that, I have a roughly 20 year old Delta "1.5HP" dust collector that I barely a year ago put a canister filter on along with a DD cyclone with a 20' hose. I use this on one machine at a time and it works just fine for me, and in fact, much better than before. I don't have the space and budget for the dust collection set up of an industrial shop, I don't have the time to do industrial level woodworking, and as a result I'm content with what I have. This argument is akin to shitting on someone who bought a Makita random orbit sander because he didn't buy a Festool ETS/EC. |
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Originally Posted By Walkure: A canister filter may, as it provides vastly more surface area for filter media. This allows for higher airflow while maintaining sufficient filtration, and it can maintain more airflow for longer periods before cleaning or exchanging the element. Properly sized (and rated) cloth filters will spank those canisters all day long when it comes to airflow and dealing with large volumes of finer dust. (and last many years longer) This is WHY you never see any medium to bigger size shops running canister filter junk on their sanders. If the juice was worth the squeeze and lived up to the hype - You would see that stuff everywhere. But you don't because why? |
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Originally Posted By Aaron56: Properly sized (and rated) cloth filters will spank those canisters all day long when it comes to airflow and dealing with large volumes of finer dust. (and last many years longer) This is WHY you never see any medium to bigger size shops running canister filter junk on their sanders. If the juice was worth the squeeze and lived up to the hype - You would see that stuff everywhere. But you don't because why? Originally Posted By Aaron56: Originally Posted By Walkure: A canister filter may, as it provides vastly more surface area for filter media. This allows for higher airflow while maintaining sufficient filtration, and it can maintain more airflow for longer periods before cleaning or exchanging the element. Properly sized (and rated) cloth filters will spank those canisters all day long when it comes to airflow and dealing with large volumes of finer dust. (and last many years longer) This is WHY you never see any medium to bigger size shops running canister filter junk on their sanders. If the juice was worth the squeeze and lived up to the hype - You would see that stuff everywhere. But you don't because why? Again, you're comparing apples to oranges. How many of us have a commercial grade wide belt sander? If you're at a position where you need or simply can buy a wide belt sander and use it often, then you're going to buy commercial/industrial level dust collection too. Whatever commercial/industrial grade dust collector you get at that point will have the correct filtration media for the task. There's a guy on YT, PK Woodworking, who just built a new ~900sq/ft shop behind his house in SoCA. I don't know what he does or did for work but he clearly has the money for industrial grade equipment like a 20"SCM jointer/planer, top of the line sliding saw, wide belt sander, etc. He has a commercial grade Felder DC for it all. The point I'm trying to make is, when you're at the point he is at, you'll buy the "correct" DC. Very few of us are at that point. |
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Originally Posted By Aaron56: Properly sized (and rated) cloth filters will spank those canisters all day long when it comes to airflow and dealing with large volumes of finer dust. (and last many years longer) Originally Posted By Aaron56: Properly sized (and rated) cloth filters will spank those canisters all day long when it comes to airflow and dealing with large volumes of finer dust. (and last many years longer) This is what keeps tripping you up. You want to compare different sizes of filters. Originally Posted By Aaron56: This is WHY you never see any medium to bigger size shops running canister filter junk on their sanders. If the juice was worth the squeeze and lived up to the hype - You would see that stuff everywhere. But you don't because why? My experience in other manufacturing is actually that this is not the case at all, especially for larger companies. Even demonstrably better systems and/or processes are often disregarded for all sorts of reasons - many times it is a short-sighted view of cost/expense (ignoring amortization over time), but it can also be just an unwillingness to change from something that works. Again, when the size constraints are removed, and you can run as big of a bag filter as you want, it very well may be that the cost/benefit ratio isn't there for a similarly spec'ed pleated canister filter. There is also the issue of logistics - if bag filters are simply much easier to acquire (and I bet they are for industrial-scale use), then that can be a very compelling argument to keep using them. Especially when they are adequate. |
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Originally Posted By A_G: Again, you're comparing apples to oranges. How many of us have a commercial grade wide belt sander? A commercial grade wide belt sander that will run for many, many hours non-stop without ever having to dink with a filter because it became so clogged that it cut down the air flow too much and caused any problems... That is with a tiny 2hp dust collector running a dual bag (relatively short bags at that) setup and it will handle that load just fine without seriously polluting my air or leaving a huge mess inside of the machine. You try and feed that volume of fine dust to a canister (or canisters) of the same overall dimensions and you will not be sanding for very long before you will have to stop and unclog your filters. You should be able to notice from my pictures that the DC is running and that there is no cloud of fine dust in the air, or on things around the tool (no dust on the girls in particular). How could those crappy bags keep the air around me so clean but still flow enough air and have enough suction to pick up and collect the fines that I want removed as quickly as possible from the machine???  A water bowl laying around on the floor in your shop is a good thing to have. Makes it more easy to see fine particles floating around in the air and settling over time. If that bowl of water you put down in the morning is still crystal clean and clear on its surface after a few hours of collecting fine dust and expelling the exhaust into your work area - You have things sorted out. |