Originally Posted By Bishop3:
Does God do what He wants with His people:

No religious institution; Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, or otherwise controls the Holy Spirit or holds a monopoly on His will.

Yes, God does whatever He pleases with His people.

John 3:8
..."The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
  ~ Jesus the Son of God

1 Corinthians 12:11
..."But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills."...
  ~ Paul the Lord's Apostle

In the Book of Acts the Spirit falls on the Gentiles while Peter is still speaking *before baptism, before any institutional approval, before any hierarchical permission.
~ Acts of the Apostles 10

Psalms 115:3
..."But our God is in the heavens; He does whatever He pleases."...

Daniel 4:35
... "He does according to His will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay His hand or say to Him, “What have You done?”...

The Holy Spirit is not the property of any denomination, succession, sacrament, or governing body. He is God. He regenerates whom He will, seals whom He will, leads whom He will, and convicts whom He will ---according to the Father’s purpose and the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ.

No religious institution controls the Holy Spirit or holds exclusive claim to His will.

Love God,
love people,
shine, shine His Light.

Maranatha

Originally Posted By Bishop3:


Acts 10:44–47
“While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also… Then Peter answered, ‘Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?’”

The Spirit fell before baptism and without any hierarchical permission or sacramental sequence(s) controlled by the Jerusalem church.



On my way to meet with the assembly, the called out people of God.

God bless you, behold His wonderment!

Originally Posted By Bishop3:


Acts 13:2–4
“While they were ministering to the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, ‘Set apart for Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.’ … So, being sent out by the Holy Spirit, they went down to Seleucia…”

The Spirit Himself initiates and directs the mission; the local church (called out, assembly) simply recognizes and submits.

Originally Posted By Bishop3:


Just a reminder of...
God's sovereign freedom over His people

Romans 9:15–18
“For He says to Moses, ‘I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.’ So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. … So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.”
  ~ Paul the Lord's Apostle

The Word of God shows that the Holy Spirit is not managed, scheduled, or monopolized by any human institution, hierarchy, or religious system. He acts according to His will, when and where and upon whom He chooses.

2 Corinthians 3:17
..." Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty." ...
  ~ Paul the Lord's Apostle

Originally Posted By brianm:


Those that do the will of God are 'His people.'  You've self admitted to being rebellious and/or denying His ordinances.  Disobedience sounds like a hardened heart to me.

The Holy Spirit guides the Church that Christ founded into all truth.  The Spirit does not 'witness' to the falsehood of novel personal feelings that fly in the face of apostolic teaching.  Sorry.

I suggest adhering to that which has been passed down to us from Jesus by the Apostles.  

Edit: Also you should pray for humility.  I will do so on your behalf.

Originally Posted By brianm:


Aye, the Holy Spirit guides the Church, catholic and apostolic in its nature.  He is not a tool for you to use to claim He bears witness to your personal feelings.

Just a reminder, claiming the Spirit is 'witness' to your personal falsehoods is really bad.

Originally Posted By RSR556:

What is your definition of "the Church"?

Originally Posted By Raidersgone:

To lead, teach, and guide a born from above soul into all Truth.

Originally Posted By RSR556:

Are you saying that those not in the Catholic church who call on the name of our Father in heaven, and follow His precepts, aren't worthy of salvation through the precious blood of His only begotten Son, and not in His Assembly?

Originally Posted By brianm:
But to go slightly further, do you think the Apostles or their disciples considered individuals that preached things that they themselves did not preach or deny things they learned from Christ, to be part of the body, even though these individuals confessed Christ's resurrection?  

Originally Posted By TangoFoxtrot:
Colossians 2:16-17 - King James Version

16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Originally Posted By TangoFoxtrot:
And another from Catholic Answers


What the Early Church Believed: Sabbath or Sunday?
https://www.catholic.com/tract/sabbath-or-sunday


Some religious organizations (Seventh-day Adventists, Seventh-Day Baptists, and certain others) claim that Christians must not worship on Sunday but on Saturday, the Jewish Sabbath. They claim that, at some unnamed time after the apostolic age, the Church "changed" the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday.

However, passages of Scripture such as Acts 20:7, 1 Corinthians 16:2, Colossians 2:16-17, and Revelation 1:10 indicate that, even during New Testament times, the Sabbath is no longer binding and that Christians are to worship on the Lord's day, Sunday, instead.

The early Church Fathers compared the observance of the Sabbath to the observance of the rite of circumcision, and from that they demonstrated that if the apostles abolished circumcision (Gal. 5:1-6), so also the observance of the Sabbath must have been abolished.

The following quotations show that the first Christians understood this principle and gathered for worship on Sunday.


The Didache

"But every Lord's day . . . gather yourselves together and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure. But let no one that is at variance with his fellow come together with you, until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice may not be profaned" (Didache 14 [A.D. 70]).


The Letter of Barnabas

"We keep the eighth day [Sunday] with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead" (Letter of Barnabas 15:6 8 [A.D. 74]).        

Ignatius of Antioch      

"[T]hose who were brought up in the ancient order of things [i.e. Jews] have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's day, on which also our life has sprung up again by him and by his death" (Letter to the Magnesians 8 [A.D. 110]).


Justin Martyr      

"But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead" (First Apology 67 [A.D. 155]).
The Didascalia

"The apostles further appointed: On the first day of the week let there be service, and the reading of the holy scriptures, and the oblation [sacrifice of the Mass], because on the first day of the week [i.e., Sunday] our Lord rose from the place of the dead, and on the first day of the week he arose upon the world, and on the first day of the week he ascended up to heaven, and on the first day of the week he will appear at last with the angels of heaven" (Didascalia 2 [A.D. 225]).


Origen

"Hence it is not possible that the [day of] rest after the Sabbath should have come into existence from the seventh [day] of our God. On the contrary, it is our Savior who, after the pattern of his own rest, caused us to be made in the likeness of his death, and hence also of his resurrection" (Commentary on John 2:28 [A.D. 229]).


Victorinus

"The sixth day [Friday] is called parasceve, that is to say, the preparation of the kingdom. . . . On this day also, on account of the passion of the Lord Jesus Christ, we make either a station to God or a fast. On the seventh day he rested from all his works, and blessed it, and sanctified it. On the former day we are accustomed to fast rigorously, that on the Lord's day we may go forth to our bread with giving of thanks. And let the parasceve become a rigorous fast, lest we should appear to observe any Sabbath with the Jews . . . which Sabbath he [Christ] in his body abolished" (The Creation of the World [A.D. 300]).


Eusebius of Caesarea

"They [the early saints of the Old Testament] did not care about circumcision of the body, neither do we [Christians]. They did not care about observing Sabbaths, nor do we. They did not avoid certain kinds of food, neither did they regard the other distinctions which Moses first delivered to their posterity to be observed as symbols; nor do Christians of the present day do such things" (Church History 1:4:8 [A.D. 312]).

"[T]he day of his [Christ's] light . . . was the day of his resurrection from the dead, which they say, as being the one and only truly holy day and the Lord's day, is better than any number of days as we ordinarily understand them, and better than the days set apart by the Mosaic law for feasts, new moons, and Sabbaths, which the apostle [Paul] teaches are the shadow of days and not days in reality" (Proof of the Gospel 4:16:186 [A.D. 319]).


Athanasius

"The Sabbath was the end of the first creation, the Lord's day was the beginning of the second, in which he renewed and restored the old in the same way as he prescribed that they should formerly observe the Sabbath as a memorial of the end of the first things, so we honor the Lord's day as being the memorial of the new creation" (On Sabbath and Circumcision 3 [A.D. 345]).


Cyril of Jerusalem

"Fall not away either into the sect of the Samaritans or into Judaism, for Jesus Christ has henceforth ransomed you. Stand aloof from all observance of Sabbaths and from calling any indifferent meats common or unclean" (Catechetical Lectures 4:37 [A.D. 350]).


Council of Laodicea

"Christians should not Judaize and should not be idle on the Sabbath, but should work on that day; they should, however, particularly reverence the Lord's day and, if possible, not work on it, because they were Christians" (Canon 29 [A.D. 360]).


John Chrysostom

"[W]hen he [God] said, 'You shall not kill' . . . he did not add, 'because murder is a wicked thing.' The reason was that conscience had taught this beforehand, and he speaks thus, as to those who know and understand the point. Wherefore when he speaks to us of another commandment, not known to us by the dictate of conscience, he not only prohibits, but adds the reason. When, for instance, he gave commandment concerning the Sabbath  'On the seventh day you shall do no work' he subjoined also the reason for this cessation. What was this? 'Because on the seventh day God rested from all his works which he had begun to make' [Ex. 20:10-11]. . . . For what purpose then, I ask, did he add a reason respecting the Sabbath, but did no such thing in regard to murder? Because this commandment was not one of the leading ones. It was not one of those which were accurately defined of our conscience, but a kind of partial and temporary one, and for this reason it was abolished afterward. But those which are necessary and uphold our life are the following: 'You shall not kill. . . . You shall not commit adultery. . . . You shall not steal.' On this account he adds no reason in this case, nor enters into any instruction on the matter, but is content with the bare prohibition" (Homilies on the Statutes 12:9 [A.D. 387]).

"You have put on Christ, you have become a member of the Lord and been enrolled in the heavenly city, and you still grovel in the law [of Moses]? How is it possible for you to obtain the kingdom? Listen to Paul's words, that the observance of the law overthrows the gospel, and learn, if you will, how this comes to pass, and tremble, and shun this pitfall. Why do you keep the Sabbath and fast with the Jews?" (Homilies on Galatians 2:17 [A.D. 395]).

"The rite of circumcision was venerable in the Jews' account, forasmuch as the law itself gave way thereto, and the Sabbath was less esteemed than circumcision. For that circumcision might be performed, the Sabbath was broken; but that the Sabbath might be kept, circumcision was never broken; and mark, I pray, the dispensation of God. This is found to be even more solemn than the Sabbath, as not being omitted at certain times. When then it is done away, much more is the Sabbath" (Homilies on Philippians 10 [A.D. 402]).


The Apostolic Constitutions

"And on the day of our Lord's resurrection, which is the Lord's day, meet more diligently, sending praise to God that made the universe by Jesus, and sent him to us, and condescended to let him suffer, and raised him from the dead. Otherwise what apology will he make to God who does not assemble on that day . . . in which is performed the reading of the prophets, the preaching of the gospel, the oblation of the sacrifice, the gift of the holy food" (Apostolic Constitutions 2:7:60 [A.D. 400]).


Augustine

"Well, now, I should like to be told what there is in these ten commandments, except the observance of the Sabbath, which ought not to be kept by a Christian" (The Spirit and the Letter 24 [A.D. 412]).


Pope Gregory I

"It has come to my ears that certain men of perverse spirit have sown among you some things that are wrong and opposed to the holy faith, so as to forbid any work being done on the Sabbath day. What else can I call these [men] but preachers of Antichrist, who when he comes will cause the Sabbath day as well as the Lord's day to be kept free from all work. For because he [the Antichrist] pretends to die and rise again, he wishes the Lord's day to be held in reverence; and because he compels the people to Judaize that he may bring back the outward rite of the law, and subject the perfidy of the Jews to himself, he wishes the Sabbath to be observed. For this which is said by the prophet, 'You shall bring in no burden through your gates on the Sabbath day' [Jer. 17:24] could be held to as long as it was lawful for the law to be observed according to the letter. But after that the grace of almighty God, our Lord Jesus Christ, has appeared, the commandments of the law which were spoken figuratively cannot be kept according to the letter. For if anyone says that this about the Sabbath is to be kept, he must needs say that carnal sacrifices are to be offered. He must say too that the commandment about the circumcision of the body is still to be retained. But let him hear the apostle Paul saying in opposition to him: 'If you be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing' [Gal. 5:2]" (Letters 13:1 [A.D. 597]).

Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam:



The whole "the Catholic Church changed the Sabbath" is one more of oh so many semantic things that is so apparently a product of relative linguistic isolation at the time of certain theological movements, as it makes no sense otherwise.

Saturday is literally still called "Sabbath" in most non-Germanic European languages (well, at least Slavic and Latin ones). It never changed. What changed was the role of Sunday, itself captured well in many non-Germanic languages, where it became known either as the Lord's Day or Resurrection Day.

Originally Posted By RSR556:

Acts 20 occurs after sunset at the end of Shabbat, or what would be called Saturday night now days.
Hence the many lamps, and the young man that fell asleep.
It is common for followers of Yeshua to break bread, or in other words eat, after Shabbat services and expound on the TORAH portions taught that day well into the night.

1 Corinthians 16
Workers in those days got paid daily, and the 1st day was just 1 of the 6 common work days.
These verses are simply saying to start setting apart your tithes on the 1st day, so you don't get caught short the next Shabbat when traditionally tithes are placed into the Tzedakah box.

Colossians 2:16-17 is clearly speaking of a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day, which all of them are a shadow of what is to come, if you understand our Father's set apart days.
There is no reference to the 1st day.

Revelation 1:10 is about the day that the trumpet sounds as the Messiah returns to rule and reign.
Again, no reference to the 1st day.

The rest of the quotes you posted are nothing but replacement theology.

Edit: Sorry, I meant to quote post 31 too.

Originally Posted By brianm:


I'm not sure what you mean by this, other than to confirm my statement.  The Apostles' disciples did preach the Lord's Day, which they learned from their Master.  

"If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death — whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith, and therefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master — how shall we be able to live apart from Him, whose disciples the prophets themselves in the Spirit did wait for Him as their Teacher? And therefore He whom they rightly waited for, having come, raised them from the dead. Matthew 27:52

Let us not, therefore, be insensible to His kindness. For were He to reward us according to our works, we should cease to be. Therefore, having become His disciples, let us learn to live according to the principles of Christianity. For whosoever is called by any other name besides this, is not of God. Lay aside, therefore, the evil, the old, the sour leaven, and be changed into the new leaven, which is Jesus Christ. Be salted in Him, lest any one among you should be corrupted, since by your savour you shall be convicted. It is absurd to profess Christ Jesus, and to Judaize. For Christianity did not embrace Judaism, but Judaism Christianity, that so every tongue which believes might be gathered together to God.

These things [I address to you], my beloved, not that I know any of you to be in such a state; [addicted to the error of Judaizing] but, as less than any of you, I desire to guard you beforehand, that you fall not upon the hooks of vain doctrine, but that you attain to full assurance in regard to the birth, and passion, and resurrection which took place in the time of the government of Pontius Pilate, being truly and certainly accomplished by Jesus Christ, who is our hope, 1 Timothy 1:1 from which may no one of you ever be turned aside."  -St. Ignatius of Antioch

Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam:



Oh, I see. We are just playing semantics games. Carry on.

Originally Posted By Raidersgone:

In other words, religions of man are not the authority.

Originally Posted By brianm:


The Lord's Day is the first day of the week, which we English speakers call Sunday.

I said: "do you think the Apostles or their disciples considered individuals that preached things that they themselves did not preach or deny things they learned from Christ, to be part of the body, even though these individuals confessed Christ's resurrection?"

You said: "You mean like attempting to change the Sabbath to another day, or disregarding our Fathers set apart feast days, and replacing them with traditions of men?"

The Apostles and their disciples preached no requirement to observe the weekly or any Sabbath.  They established a weekly feast day, the Lord's day.

Observing any Sabbath or Jewish feast day was not preached by them, therefore those that DID preach that were not from them (i.e. the Judaizers) and outside the Church.

Do you observe the Sabbath?  Not just the weekly Sabbath, do you follow the Sabbath YEAR?  Because I doubt it.  How far do you actually take your Judaizing?



It was what was taught by the early Church.  Men pass on traditions.  These traditions came from the Apostles and Christ.

Are you some flavor of 'restorationist,' since you obviously think the Holy Spirit failed the Church before even the first generation passed away?

Originally Posted By Raidersgone:
On topic for the heart of the matter. See the Archived thread: "There is Only One Worthy"

Colossians 2:16-17  Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days. Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ JESUS.

In other words, we can't follow man or his religions. Since this topic turned to another topic.
What is the interpretation of these verses above and below?:

 Mark 2:27-28  And He (Jesus) said unto them, "The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: Therefore the Son of man is LORD also of the sabbath.
 Matthew 11:28-30.
 Hebrews 4:1-11.
 Romans 14:4-13.

Originally Posted By Raidersgone:

Topic took a turn, my questions added by edit above.

Originally Posted By 3xpert:


Matt 11: 28-30
28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Mark 2: 24-28
24 And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful?
25 And he said unto them, Have ye never read what David did, when he had need, and was an hungred, he, and they that were with him?
26 How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and did eat the shewbread, which is not lawful to eat but for the priests, and gave also to them which were with him?
27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

The Old Testament Sabbath day pointed to Jesus Christ as the Sabbath rest. Now that the Messiah arrived,

Rest from what? Trying to earn God's Grace by self works, instead rest in what Jesus did on the Cross.
Everyday of the week.

Luke 9:23
23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

"His Cross" not yours, your blood or mine means nothing,  and put your Faith in what Jesus did on the Cross Daily.

Originally Posted By brianm:


My question was not whether YOU think it is the case or not.  That matters not at all.

It was whether the Apostle and their disciples would have thought those that preached something completely different from them would consider them part of the body of believers?  

It was semi-rhetorical question.  Of course they would reject, for example, a heretical Judaizer.




St. Ignatius was a disciple of the apostle St. John.  You know, the guy I quoted saying they did NOT observe the Sabbath.  

You can find quotes from almost all the early Church writers warning against the evils of Judaizing.




Dude, I doubt you eat essentially foraged grains and fruit for a year.  Or store enough to last from the previous year.  lol.

If you did, that just shows the sickness of your Judaizing...something modern 'Jews' have all but completely abandoned or interpreted themselves out of doing.