Posted: 8/14/2026 10:38:14 AM EDT
In case you feel like going deep on this subject: 10 HUGE Problems with Protestant Worship |
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Originally Posted By Gullskjegg: In case you feel like going deep on this subject:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbbwRlwQI_0You should stay off youtube and keep your eyes planted in the Word of God, the Bible. Jesus the Word made flesh. This is reason I thank the Lord everyday for saving me out of that godlessness called catholicism. |
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Originally Posted By 3xpert: You should stay off youtube and keep your eyes planted in the Word of God, the Bible. Jesus the Word made flesh. This is reason I thank the Lord everyday for saving me out of that godlessness called catholicism. The Word of God is the second Person of the Trinity, maker of all things which have been made. The Bible is a collection of books which bear witness to the revelation of God. They should not be conflated. |
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Originally Posted By 3xpert: You should stay off youtube and keep your eyes planted in the Word of God, the Bible. Jesus the Word made flesh. This is reason I thank the Lord everyday for saving me out of that godlessness called catholicism. Originally Posted By 3xpert: Originally Posted By Gullskjegg: In case you feel like going deep on this subject: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbbwRlwQI_0You should stay off youtube and keep your eyes planted in the Word of God, the Bible. Jesus the Word made flesh. This is reason I thank the Lord everyday for saving me out of that godlessness called catholicism. Spicy! God forbid someone deepens their knowledge and love of God. This is like Mike Gendron telling people to stay away from history and early Church writings because it will convert them to Catholicism. The same Mike Gendron who left the Church so he could divorce his wife and marry a younger girlfriend. |
Give me that old time religion
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Originally Posted By Gullskjegg: Spicy! God forbid someone deepens their knowledge and love of God. This is like Mike Gendron telling people to stay away from history and early Church writings because it will convert them to Catholicism. The same Mike Gendron who left the Church so he could divorce his wife and marry a younger girlfriend. Originally Posted By Gullskjegg: Originally Posted By 3xpert: Originally Posted By Gullskjegg: In case you feel like going deep on this subject: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbbwRlwQI_0You should stay off youtube and keep your eyes planted in the Word of God, the Bible. Jesus the Word made flesh. This is reason I thank the Lord everyday for saving me out of that godlessness called catholicism. Spicy! God forbid someone deepens their knowledge and love of God. This is like Mike Gendron telling people to stay away from history and early Church writings because it will convert them to Catholicism. The same Mike Gendron who left the Church so he could divorce his wife and marry a younger girlfriend. I'm going to have to start calling you LT Kaffee. You just got Col Jessup to admit he ordered the Code Red. |
History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which Trump is always right.
Modern life is one steep, perpetual tax on the mathematically impaired
Modern life is one steep, perpetual tax on the mathematically impaired
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Originally Posted By 3xpert: You should stay off youtube and keep your eyes planted in the Word of God, the Bible. Jesus the Word made flesh. This is reason I thank the Lord everyday for saving me out of that godlessness called catholicism. Originally Posted By 3xpert: Originally Posted By Gullskjegg: In case you feel like going deep on this subject: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbbwRlwQI_0You should stay off youtube and keep your eyes planted in the Word of God, the Bible. Jesus the Word made flesh. This is reason I thank the Lord everyday for saving me out of that godlessness called catholicism. Why do you think Catholicism is godless? |
Why is the sky blue?
What makes the green grass grow?
What makes the green grass grow?
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Originally Posted By 3xpert: You should stay off youtube and keep your eyes planted in the Word of God, the Bible. Jesus the Word made flesh. This is reason I thank the Lord everyday for saving me out of that godlessness called catholicism. Wagner is one of the great Thomistic theologians of our era. It would be wise to at least give him a listen. Do not let the hardness of your heart cause you to completely ignore other viewpoints. It is our duty to spread the gospel, if we ignore everyone else's viewpoints then that mission is never going to be fulfilled. |
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Two questions: What is a protestant? What does GOD look at in man as an identifier? Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto JESUS the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of GOD. |
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Originally Posted By Raidersgone: Two questions: What is a protestant? What does GOD look at in man as an identifier? Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto JESUS the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of GOD. Originally Posted By Raidersgone: Two questions: What is a protestant? What does GOD look at in man as an identifier? Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto JESUS the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of GOD. Are your questions rhetorical? Originally Posted By Oldgold: Matthew 15:9 King James Version 9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. What is the context of that line? |
Why is the sky blue?
What makes the green grass grow?
What makes the green grass grow?
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Originally Posted By GSPatton: A summary would be nice. The title is catchy. The video speaks to the nature of sacrifice and worship in relation to the natures of God and man, the efficacy of the sacraments Christ gives us, and how true Christian freedom is found within the bounds of natural and political law as opposed to lawlessness. It is not a “protestants are stupid” video, but rather a good discussion for anyone wanting to go deeper. |
Give me that old time religion
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Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam: I'm going to have to start calling you LT Kaffee. You just got Col Jessup to admit he ordered the Code Red. Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam: Originally Posted By Gullskjegg: Originally Posted By 3xpert: Originally Posted By Gullskjegg: In case you feel like going deep on this subject: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbbwRlwQI_0You should stay off youtube and keep your eyes planted in the Word of God, the Bible. Jesus the Word made flesh. This is reason I thank the Lord everyday for saving me out of that godlessness called catholicism. Spicy! God forbid someone deepens their knowledge and love of God. This is like Mike Gendron telling people to stay away from history and early Church writings because it will convert them to Catholicism. The same Mike Gendron who left the Church so he could divorce his wife and marry a younger girlfriend. I'm going to have to start calling you LT Kaffee. You just got Col Jessup to admit he ordered the Code Red. Haha, man it’s been so long I had to go rewatch the scene. |
Give me that old time religion
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Originally Posted By GSPatton: A summary would be nice. The video could use an editor, but here are the ten that I was able to distill from it and my own elaboration at times. Trying to number these gives me flashbacks to 10 commandments discussions, and his summary shows only 9 points. 1. No legal framework. A church body without a proper authority and means to bind and loose is not biblical, as it cannot prescribe practices commanded of the Church. 2. No participation in proper sacrifice. Often outright rejection of the covenantal nature of the mass as the supreme act of worship owed to God. 3. No prayer for the dead. Rejection of purgatory. 4. Rejection of the role of the Saints in Heaven / Church Triumphant. 5. No Eucharistic adoration, rejection of true presence. 6. Absence of prescribed Rites of the Church (this one seems to really trip over itself relative to number 1, but maybe it's a framework (constitution) versus laws thing he's going for). 7. Absence or rejection of Sacraments, thus dismissal of divinely instituted means of grace, especially Penance. 8. Rejection of sacramentals and their role in spiritual warfare. 9. Restrictions or absence of vows in general. 10. Absence of religious life vows in particular. |
History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which Trump is always right.
Modern life is one steep, perpetual tax on the mathematically impaired
Modern life is one steep, perpetual tax on the mathematically impaired
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Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam: The video could use an editor, but here are the ten that I was able to distill from it and my own elaboration at times. Trying to number these gives me flashbacks to 10 commandments discussions, and his summary shows only 9 points. 1. No legal framework. A church body without a proper authority and means to bind and loose is not biblical, as it cannot prescribe practices commanded of the Church. 2. No participation in proper sacrifice. Often outright rejection of the covenantal nature of the mass as the supreme act of worship owed to God. 3. No prayer for the dead. Rejection of purgatory. 4. Rejection of the role of the Saints in Heaven / Church Triumphant. 5. No Eucharistic adoration, rejection of true presence. 6. Absence of prescribed Rites of the Church (this one seems to really trip over itself relative to number 1, but maybe it's a framework (constitution) versus laws thing he's going for). 7. Absence or rejection of Sacraments, thus dismissal of divinely instituted means of grace, especially Penance. 8. Rejection of sacramentals and their role in spiritual warfare. 9. Restrictions or absence of vows in general. 10. Absence of religious life vows in particular. Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam: Originally Posted By GSPatton: A summary would be nice. The video could use an editor, but here are the ten that I was able to distill from it and my own elaboration at times. Trying to number these gives me flashbacks to 10 commandments discussions, and his summary shows only 9 points. 1. No legal framework. A church body without a proper authority and means to bind and loose is not biblical, as it cannot prescribe practices commanded of the Church. 2. No participation in proper sacrifice. Often outright rejection of the covenantal nature of the mass as the supreme act of worship owed to God. 3. No prayer for the dead. Rejection of purgatory. 4. Rejection of the role of the Saints in Heaven / Church Triumphant. 5. No Eucharistic adoration, rejection of true presence. 6. Absence of prescribed Rites of the Church (this one seems to really trip over itself relative to number 1, but maybe it's a framework (constitution) versus laws thing he's going for). 7. Absence or rejection of Sacraments, thus dismissal of divinely instituted means of grace, especially Penance. 8. Rejection of sacramentals and their role in spiritual warfare. 9. Restrictions or absence of vows in general. 10. Absence of religious life vows in particular. Interesting as my understanding is a lot of those are practiced by Anglicans and Lutherans. |
Why is the sky blue?
What makes the green grass grow?
What makes the green grass grow?
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Originally Posted By 11boomboom: Interesting as my understanding is a lot of those are practiced by Anglicans and Lutherans. Originally Posted By 11boomboom: Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam: Originally Posted By GSPatton: A summary would be nice. The video could use an editor, but here are the ten that I was able to distill from it and my own elaboration at times. Trying to number these gives me flashbacks to 10 commandments discussions, and his summary shows only 9 points. 1. No legal framework. A church body without a proper authority and means to bind and loose is not biblical, as it cannot prescribe practices commanded of the Church. 2. No participation in proper sacrifice. Often outright rejection of the covenantal nature of the mass as the supreme act of worship owed to God. 3. No prayer for the dead. Rejection of purgatory. 4. Rejection of the role of the Saints in Heaven / Church Triumphant. 5. No Eucharistic adoration, rejection of true presence. 6. Absence of prescribed Rites of the Church (this one seems to really trip over itself relative to number 1, but maybe it's a framework (constitution) versus laws thing he's going for). 7. Absence or rejection of Sacraments, thus dismissal of divinely instituted means of grace, especially Penance. 8. Rejection of sacramentals and their role in spiritual warfare. 9. Restrictions or absence of vows in general. 10. Absence of religious life vows in particular. Interesting as my understanding is a lot of those are practiced by Anglicans and Lutherans. He clarifies that not all of this applies to all historical Protestants, especially Lutherans and Anglicans. Most of the militant anti-Eucharist stuff, for example, seems to have started with Zwingli and then been picked up by other groups often rebelling against their own national Protestant churches. |
History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which Trump is always right.
Modern life is one steep, perpetual tax on the mathematically impaired
Modern life is one steep, perpetual tax on the mathematically impaired
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Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam: He clarifies that not all of this applies to all historical Protestants, especially Lutherans and Anglicans. Most of the militant anti-Eucharist stuff, for example, seems to have started with Zwingli and then been picked up by other groups often rebelling against their own national Protestant churches. Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam: Originally Posted By 11boomboom: Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam: Originally Posted By GSPatton: A summary would be nice. The video could use an editor, but here are the ten that I was able to distill from it and my own elaboration at times. Trying to number these gives me flashbacks to 10 commandments discussions, and his summary shows only 9 points. 1. No legal framework. A church body without a proper authority and means to bind and loose is not biblical, as it cannot prescribe practices commanded of the Church. 2. No participation in proper sacrifice. Often outright rejection of the covenantal nature of the mass as the supreme act of worship owed to God. 3. No prayer for the dead. Rejection of purgatory. 4. Rejection of the role of the Saints in Heaven / Church Triumphant. 5. No Eucharistic adoration, rejection of true presence. 6. Absence of prescribed Rites of the Church (this one seems to really trip over itself relative to number 1, but maybe it's a framework (constitution) versus laws thing he's going for). 7. Absence or rejection of Sacraments, thus dismissal of divinely instituted means of grace, especially Penance. 8. Rejection of sacramentals and their role in spiritual warfare. 9. Restrictions or absence of vows in general. 10. Absence of religious life vows in particular. Interesting as my understanding is a lot of those are practiced by Anglicans and Lutherans. He clarifies that not all of this applies to all historical Protestants, especially Lutherans and Anglicans. Most of the militant anti-Eucharist stuff, for example, seems to have started with Zwingli and then been picked up by other groups often rebelling against their own national Protestant churches. Makes sense. |
Why is the sky blue?
What makes the green grass grow?
What makes the green grass grow?
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Originally Posted By 11boomboom: Interesting as my understanding is a lot of those are practiced by Anglicans and Lutherans. Anglicans check every box except some definitions of Purgatory. A lot of us are fine with it as a process of purification. Calling it a place of punishment is typically not accepted. |
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Originally Posted By wswartzendruber: Anglicans check every box except some definitions of Purgatory. A lot of us are fine with it as a process of purification. Calling it a place of punishment is typically not accepted. Originally Posted By wswartzendruber: Originally Posted By 11boomboom: Interesting as my understanding is a lot of those are practiced by Anglicans and Lutherans. Anglicans check every box except some definitions of Purgatory. A lot of us are fine with it as a process of purification. Calling it a place of punishment is typically not accepted. Catholic official doctrine is that it's a stage of purification, too. |
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Originally Posted By 11boomboom: Catholic official doctrine is that it's a stage of purification, too. I was noticing that in your Catechism, which doesn't have very much to say on the place. That bit right there (what isn't said) could go a long way in helping to put things back together. |
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Originally Posted By wswartzendruber: Anglicans check every box except some definitions of Purgatory. A lot of us are fine with it as a process of purification. Calling it a place of punishment is typically not accepted. Do Catholics think it’s punishment? From all I have read and heard it a place of purification since nothing unclean can enter heaven. |
Romani ite domum! Hail Caesar!
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Originally Posted By Mazawakhan: Do Catholics think it’s punishment? From all I have read and heard it a place of purification since nothing unclean can enter heaven. Originally Posted By Mazawakhan: Originally Posted By wswartzendruber: Anglicans check every box except some definitions of Purgatory. A lot of us are fine with it as a process of purification. Calling it a place of punishment is typically not accepted. Do Catholics think it’s punishment? From all I have read and heard it a place of purification since nothing unclean can enter heaven. Not at all. If you're in purgatory, you're going to heaven 100%. Purgatory is where you're purified before entering heaven. It's not a place, but a step on the way into heaven. |
Why is the sky blue?
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What makes the green grass grow?
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Originally Posted By 11boomboom: Not at all. If you're in purgatory, you're going to heaven 100%. Purgatory is where you're purified before entering heaven. It's not a place, but a step on the way into heaven. Originally Posted By 11boomboom: Originally Posted By Mazawakhan: Originally Posted By wswartzendruber: Anglicans check every box except some definitions of Purgatory. A lot of us are fine with it as a process of purification. Calling it a place of punishment is typically not accepted. Do Catholics think it’s punishment? From all I have read and heard it a place of purification since nothing unclean can enter heaven. Not at all. If you're in purgatory, you're going to heaven 100%. Purgatory is where you're purified before entering heaven. It's not a place, but a step on the way into heaven. I think this is another one of those concepts where modern use of a word has caused a semantic issue and people either accidentally or deliberately talk over each other. There seemed to have been all sorts of similar discussion going back at least to the council of Florence. I've definitely heard or read the term "purgatorial punishment" and "temporal punishment," but never in anything "official" that I know of. Fundamentally, it's about the difference between being forgiven, and the damages caused by sin being removed. I mean, is penance "punishment?" Even our prison system, intertwined as it is with Western Civ as much as the Church and its official or unofficial views of the nature of things, has long also used the term "penitentiary." Digging into the history of that term would be interesting. The decree from Trent is quite interesting. It seems clear the Church is saying "this shit's confusing, and theologians have debated nuance of it for years. Let's all stop pretending we know details, allow theologians to argue as they may, and insure the common folk just maintain proper regard for the disposition of the souls of the deceased." ...let the more difficult and subtle questions, and which tend not to edification, and from which for the most part there is no increase of piety, be excluded from popular discourses before the uneducated multitude. In like manner, such things as are uncertain, or which labour under an appearance of error, let them not allow to be made public and treated of. While those things which tend to a certain kind of curiosity or superstition, or which savour of filthy lucre, let them prohibit as scandals and stumbling-blocks of the faithful. But let the bishops take care, that the suffrages of the faithful who are living, to wit the sacrifices of masses, prayers, alms, and other works of piety, which have been wont to be performed by the faithful for the other faithful departed, be piously and devoutly performed, in accordance with the institutes of the church; and that whatsoever is due on their behalf, from the endowments of testators, or in other way, be discharged, not in a perfunctory manner, but diligently and accurately, by the priests and ministers of the church, and others who are bound to render this (service). |
History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which Trump is always right.
Modern life is one steep, perpetual tax on the mathematically impaired
Modern life is one steep, perpetual tax on the mathematically impaired
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Originally Posted By wswartzendruber: Anglicans check every box except some definitions of Purgatory. A lot of us are fine with it as a process of purification. Calling it a place of punishment is typically not accepted. I would not have expected that since discussions on purgatory preceded the English schism. As Bohr_Adam pointed out, at least as early as the Council of Florence ecumenically, but Sts. Thomas Aquinas, Augustine, and many others spoke it centuries before. St. Thomas Aquinas even goes so far as to say that the fire that cleanses in purgatory is the same fire that torments in hell (he also states, "Nothing is clearly stated in Scripture about the situation of Purgatory, nor is it possible to offer convincing arguments on this question."). Perhaps it is my ignorance, but I am not aware of an anteschismic tradition in England objecting this view of purgatory. Originally Posted By Mazawakhan: Do Catholics think it’s punishment? From all I have read and heard it a place of purification since nothing unclean can enter heaven. It's not an either/or proposition. It can be punitive and purgative. But to answer your question, I know no Catholics who object either the purgative or punitive attributes of purgatory. The Trent catechism does not dwell on it in length, but it does include both elements. "Among them is also the fire of purgatory, in which the souls of just men are cleansed by a temporary punishment, in order to be admitted into their eternal country, into which nothing defiled entereth. The truth of this doctrine, founded, as holy Councils declare,' on Scripture, and confirmed by Apostolic tradition, demands exposition from the pastor, all the more diligent and frequent, because we live in times when men endure not sound doctrine." |
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In conversion to Jesus, it can hurt quite badly to purge oneself from vices. I would imagine this would relate somehow to our purgation after death. The cleansing fire of God may very well be a punishment of sorts, inasmuch as justice demands punishment for our sins and the removal of their stains on our souls before we enter heaven. But not to be confused with the eternal punishment of hell. But I am not a theologian so I’ll just defer to those smarter than myself. |
Give me that old time religion
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Originally Posted By FrankW134: What makes a 500 year old document more legitimate than 1700 year old organization? The Catholic Church is so much more than just an organization. And we don't need to list all of the heresy and terrible things that have happened. Indulgences, The Inquisition, Pope Alexander VI, Pope Alexander VI, the current crop of child molesters, blah, blah blah Just because the church promotes something does not mean at all that it is righteous or the proper thing to follow. I know that many Catholics believe that there's a whole checklist of things that they need to accomplish before they're admitted to heaven. But we are taught that we are granted grace by our faith alone in the Lord Jesus. Ephesians 2:8 9 Here is a very simple exercise, does your Bible include Acts 15 verse 34? Why should it be there? |
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Wait.... the Bible? Writings collected together by an authoritative body and codified? Neat. 😁 |
"Out of every one hundred men, ten shouldn't be there. Eighty are just targets. Nine are the real fighters, and we are glad to have them. For they make the battle. Ah! But THE one! The One is a WARRIOR, and he will bring the others home." -Heraclitus
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Originally Posted By skid2041: Wait.... the Bible? Writings collected together by an authoritative body and codified? Neat. 😁 The Acts 15 verse 34 comment but is particularly rich, as it's a relic of the Vulgate and not found in older manuscripts since dug up. |
History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which Trump is always right.
Modern life is one steep, perpetual tax on the mathematically impaired
Modern life is one steep, perpetual tax on the mathematically impaired
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