Catholics and Freemasonry (Page 2 of 2)
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Originally Posted By doubleplusgood: I think I get the gist of it About 300 years ago, the Catholic Church and Freemasonry had some sort of spat and the church is holding a grudge OK then You don't seem the least bit interested in actually understanding. |
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Originally Posted By Martlet: If you'd like to learn more, visit your local lodge. Your accusations have been answered. Originally Posted By Martlet: Originally Posted By 11boomboom: Is Vishnu a supreme being? ETA: What classifies a god as a supreme being and would Vishnu or another eastern god be considered one? If you'd like to learn more, visit your local lodge. Your accusations have been answered. They have not. What classifies a supreme being? Why won't you answer that? I am not going to a lodge, I'm asking you Freemasons. |
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Originally Posted By doubleplusgood: On the contrary understanding is just what I seek Originally Posted By doubleplusgood: Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam: You don't seem the least bit interested in actually understanding. On the contrary understanding is just what I seek It sure looks like you're cherry-picking response and not confronting the main issues. What was the point of your earlier comment about love, relief, and truth? |
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Originally Posted By doubleplusgood: Those are the core beliefs of masonry Originally Posted By doubleplusgood: Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam: It sure looks like you're cherry-picking response and not confronting the main issues. What was the point of your earlier comment about love, relief, and truth? Those are the core beliefs of masonry So, you have prayers to an unspecified supernatural entity and seek out "truth" through your rituals and practices? My first post, I tried to be "neutral POV" and charitable. But do you honestly not see the issue here? Can you at least maybe pretend to be able to steelman the argument? You've been provided an awful lot. |
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Originally Posted By Martlet: It has been answered. Just because you don't like the answer doesn't mean it wasn't given. Originally Posted By Martlet: Originally Posted By 11boomboom: They have not. What classifies a supreme being? Why won't you answer that? I am not going to a lodge, I'm asking you Freemasons. It has been answered. Just because you don't like the answer doesn't mean it wasn't given. So an ambiguous being is being prayed to at the start of every Mason meeting? You haven't defined what that the thing is you pray to. It can't both be God and Allah, Vishnu, Buddha, some pagan god or anything else. |
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Originally Posted By 11boomboom: So an ambiguous being is being prayed to at the start of every Mason meeting? You haven't defined what that the thing is you pray to. It can't both be God and Allah, Vishnu, Buddha, some pagan god or anything else. The prayers are not intended to be to a specific God so that they would encompass the beliefs of any man in attendance. |
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Originally Posted By medicmandan: The prayers are not intended to be to a specific God so that they would encompass the beliefs of any man in attendance. Originally Posted By medicmandan: Originally Posted By 11boomboom: So an ambiguous being is being prayed to at the start of every Mason meeting? You haven't defined what that the thing is you pray to. It can't both be God and Allah, Vishnu, Buddha, some pagan god or anything else. The prayers are not intended to be to a specific God so that they would encompass the beliefs of any man in attendance. That's the issue, though. In the Catholic viewpoint, that god you're praying to, regardless of how an individual views it, isn't God because the same target of those prayers are to different deities. |
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Originally Posted By medicmandan: The prayers are not intended to be to a specific God so that they would encompass the beliefs of any man in attendance. Originally Posted By medicmandan: Originally Posted By 11boomboom: So an ambiguous being is being prayed to at the start of every Mason meeting? You haven't defined what that the thing is you pray to. It can't both be God and Allah, Vishnu, Buddha, some pagan god or anything else. The prayers are not intended to be to a specific God so that they would encompass the beliefs of any man in attendance. Can you at least pretend to understand how self-serving and irrational that sounds to someone who disagrees? From the outside looking in, it looks like the generic style of Protestant prayer that grew popular in the 18th century, albeit with the conspicuous removal of specific references to Jesus Christ. |
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Originally Posted By 11boomboom: That's the issue, though. In the Catholic viewpoint, that god you're praying to, regardless of how an individual views it, isn't God because the same target of those prayers are to different deities. Originally Posted By 11boomboom: That's the issue, though. In the Catholic viewpoint, that god you're praying to, regardless of how an individual views it, isn't God because the same target of those prayers are to different deities. And I understand the schism (seems appropriate to use that word in this forum  ). We're not praying to "a" God. We're directing a supplication to whoever is out there for each individual man in the room. For me it's God, the one who sent his only begotten Son to die for my sins. Because I've only had one cup of coffee, I asked Grok did help me with an analogy on this: Think of a mixed group of people from different countries and political systems who need to talk about legitimate governmental authority in a shared meeting. They do not invent or install a brand-new “International President of the World” whom everyone must now obey and worship. Instead they use a neutral functional title such as “the head of state” or “the chief executive.” A British person hears that phrase and understands it as referring to the monarch (or the prime minister in a parliamentary context). An American hears the same phrase and understands it as the President. Someone from a constitutional monarchy, a republic, or another system maps it onto whatever (or whoever) legitimately holds the top office in their system. The phrase “head of state” is not itself a person, a new office, or a rival ruler. It is a role-description that lets everyone participate honestly while each person continues to mean the actual authority they already recognize. No one is required to abandon their own constitution or swear allegiance to a made-up international figure. In the same way, “Supreme Architect of the Universe” is an architectural/role title (fitting Freemasonry’s building symbolism) that points to the ordering intelligence or Creator behind the universe. Each Mason fills that title with the God (or conception of the divine) of his own religion and conscience. The term itself adds no new theology, demands no new worship, and creates no separate Masonic deity. That is why Masons say the Supreme Architect is not “a god” in the sense of a distinct, freestanding object of belief invented by the fraternity. It is simply the shared, carefully non-sectarian way of naming the Supreme Being that each man already acknowledges outside the lodge. |
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Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam: Can you at least pretend to understand how self-serving and irrational that sounds to someone who disagrees? From the outside looking in, it looks like the generic style of Protestant prayer that grew popular in the 18th century, albeit with the conspicuous removal of specific references to Jesus Christ. Wow, that was extremely rude and uncalled for. The problem with these discussions is that those who are not Masons, have never been Masons, always want to tell us what we are and are not. Freemasonry is not a religion and it is non-sectarian. When you try to squeeze it into the definition of religion for comparison of course we're going to disagree on what it is and isn't. |
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Originally Posted By medicmandan: And I understand the schism (seems appropriate to use that word in this forum ). We're not praying to "a" God. We're directing a supplication to whoever is out there for each individual man in the room. For me it's God, the one who sent his only begotten Son to die for my sins. Because I've only had one cup of coffee, I asked Grok did help me with an analogy on this: Originally Posted By medicmandan: Originally Posted By 11boomboom: That's the issue, though. In the Catholic viewpoint, that god you're praying to, regardless of how an individual views it, isn't God because the same target of those prayers are to different deities. And I understand the schism (seems appropriate to use that word in this forum ). We're not praying to "a" God. We're directing a supplication to whoever is out there for each individual man in the room. For me it's God, the one who sent his only begotten Son to die for my sins. Because I've only had one cup of coffee, I asked Grok did help me with an analogy on this: Think of a mixed group of people from different countries and political systems who need to talk about legitimate governmental authority in a shared meeting. They do not invent or install a brand-new “International President of the World” whom everyone must now obey and worship. Instead they use a neutral functional title such as “the head of state” or “the chief executive.” A British person hears that phrase and understands it as referring to the monarch (or the prime minister in a parliamentary context). An American hears the same phrase and understands it as the President. Someone from a constitutional monarchy, a republic, or another system maps it onto whatever (or whoever) legitimately holds the top office in their system. The phrase “head of state” is not itself a person, a new office, or a rival ruler. It is a role-description that lets everyone participate honestly while each person continues to mean the actual authority they already recognize. No one is required to abandon their own constitution or swear allegiance to a made-up international figure. In the same way, “Supreme Architect of the Universe” is an architectural/role title (fitting Freemasonry’s building symbolism) that points to the ordering intelligence or Creator behind the universe. Each Mason fills that title with the God (or conception of the divine) of his own religion and conscience. The term itself adds no new theology, demands no new worship, and creates no separate Masonic deity. That is why Masons say the Supreme Architect is not “a god” in the sense of a distinct, freestanding object of belief invented by the fraternity. It is simply the shared, carefully non-sectarian way of naming the Supreme Being that each man already acknowledges outside the lodge. Leaving the Church out of this for a second... Muslims are taught to pray by in a very specific way, with very specific words and postures. Can you see how a Muslim, with his understanding of proper prayer, would view this is not as "inclusive" as you personally see it? But I think maybe this might be more productive if we can discuss how Masonic practice relates to the pursuit of "love," and "truth." Or, you know, address any of the actual info provided on page one in a way that doesn't look like a strawman? |
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Originally Posted By medicmandan: Wow, that was extremely rude and uncalled for. The problem with these discussions is that those who are not Masons, have never been Masons, always want to tell us what we are and are not. Freemasonry is not a religion and it is non-sectarian. When you try to squeeze it into the definition of religion for comparison of course we're going to disagree on what it is and isn't. So, you can't at least pretend. And anyone who attempts to explain is just being rude. Got it. You are so wrapped up in your world view, you can't see the issue or even articulate it honestly. Masonic practices specifically accommodate your understanding of religion, as they were developed by people who shared your understanding of religion. |
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Originally Posted By medicmandan: And I understand the schism (seems appropriate to use that word in this forum ). We're not praying to "a" God. We're directing a supplication to whoever is out there for each individual man in the room. For me it's God, the one who sent his only begotten Son to die for my sins. Because I've only had one cup of coffee, I asked Grok did help me with an analogy on this: Originally Posted By medicmandan: Originally Posted By 11boomboom: That's the issue, though. In the Catholic viewpoint, that god you're praying to, regardless of how an individual views it, isn't God because the same target of those prayers are to different deities. And I understand the schism (seems appropriate to use that word in this forum ). We're not praying to "a" God. We're directing a supplication to whoever is out there for each individual man in the room. For me it's God, the one who sent his only begotten Son to die for my sins. Because I've only had one cup of coffee, I asked Grok did help me with an analogy on this: Think of a mixed group of people from different countries and political systems who need to talk about legitimate governmental authority in a shared meeting. They do not invent or install a brand-new “International President of the World” whom everyone must now obey and worship. Instead they use a neutral functional title such as “the head of state” or “the chief executive.” A British person hears that phrase and understands it as referring to the monarch (or the prime minister in a parliamentary context). An American hears the same phrase and understands it as the President. Someone from a constitutional monarchy, a republic, or another system maps it onto whatever (or whoever) legitimately holds the top office in their system. The phrase “head of state” is not itself a person, a new office, or a rival ruler. It is a role-description that lets everyone participate honestly while each person continues to mean the actual authority they already recognize. No one is required to abandon their own constitution or swear allegiance to a made-up international figure. In the same way, “Supreme Architect of the Universe” is an architectural/role title (fitting Freemasonry’s building symbolism) that points to the ordering intelligence or Creator behind the universe. Each Mason fills that title with the God (or conception of the divine) of his own religion and conscience. The term itself adds no new theology, demands no new worship, and creates no separate Masonic deity. That is why Masons say the Supreme Architect is not “a god” in the sense of a distinct, freestanding object of belief invented by the fraternity. It is simply the shared, carefully non-sectarian way of naming the Supreme Being that each man already acknowledges outside the lodge. And what Catholics are saying is you're not actually praying to God, but a counterfeit god as He doesn't recognize those supplications as they're not directed solely to Him. |
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This is what one Masonic website says regarding the tenet of truth. https://eugenelodge11.org/womens-prayer-breakfast/ Truth Truth is the opposite of falsehood. When a person’s word is as good as his bond, he is classified as being truthful. To be good and true is one of the first lessons we are taught in Masonry. Unless a person has a reputation for being truthful, he is not normally qualified to become a member of our order. Truthfulness is one of the fundamental requirements of good citizenship. Without truth there would be no foundation for trust and fellowship. Freemasonry’s Motto is; “Let There Be Light.” In this sense truth has a much deeper meaning. In Masonry there is a never-ending search for more truth and light. There is a great storehouse of truth for every Mason to explore. It cannot be transferred from person to person in the same manner in which we communicate our ritual, and our secrets. It must be found by personal search. To each person it presents a different interpretation. With this in mind we urge you to consider carefully the teachings of the craft as you progress in your Masonic Journey. Christianity historically teaches there is only one Truth, Way, and Light, Jesus the Messiah. Asking men to do a personal search for their own truth natural sounds fine to those who hold religion to be a private thing separate from day to day life. Such concepts emerged with the Reformation and really took off within the Enlightenment. The Catholic Church believes it has a sacred obligation, as "the pillar and bulwark of the truth," to "make disciples of all nations." This wholly contradicts the advocacy and support to a fraternity which deprioritizes such truth in the name of brotherhood. Of course I wouldn't expect Masons who profess Christianity to agree with this. I would expect less strawman nonsense, cherry-picking, and assertions of "rudeness" when people try to explain. |
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Originally Posted By doubleplusgood: They have been lied to about what masonry is and is not You guys have plainly said what you're doing and that's proven why the ban on Freemasonry is just. You also didn't come here to find out why, you came here to pick a fight. |
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Originally Posted By doubleplusgood: Because we allow different religions into our organization it is incompatible with catholic doctrine. Because we seek to unite mankind, not subjugate it to our way of thinking we are incompatible. I think I understand Are their religions/beliefs valid if it makes them a good person, under Freemasonry? |
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Originally Posted By doubleplusgood: Because we allow different religions into our organization it is incompatible with catholic doctrine. Because we seek to unite mankind, not subjugate it to our way of thinking we are incompatible. I think I understand I mean, you say that in a tone so as to be dismissive, because of course you value unity over division. That's literally what Masonry seems to teach (but said in sort of this is "self-evident" way, as you have done), and why it has historically been so outwardly hostile to the Church claiming exclusive truth. Luke 12:49-53 “I came to bring fire to the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! I have a baptism with which to be baptized, and what stress I am under until it is completed! Do you think that I have come to bring peace to the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division! From now on five in one household will be divided, three against two and two against three; they will be divided: father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law.” Matthew 10: 34-39 “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and one’s foes will be members of one’s own household. Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and whoever does not take up the cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Those who find their life will lose it, and those who lose their life for my sake will find it." Again, irreconcilable world views. Speculative Masonry postulates an ahistorical definition and purpose of religion then announces it is not one, even as it purports to offer a path to brotherhood that is not through shared baptism and communion. |
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Originally Posted By 11boomboom: And what Catholics are saying is you're not actually praying to God, but a counterfeit god as He doesn't recognize those supplications as they're not directed solely to Him. Tell me about times you were present at an event or gathering and a prayer was offered, or a 'moment of silence' was observed -lead by someone not of your precise religious brand. Who were you all (''you all") praying to? Were you, all, praying to the same diety? Who were you -individually- praying to? If you were ever in such a situation, and especially if you continue to put yourself in such positions, shouldn't you be barred from communion for joining in false rites and ceremonies, and praying to false deities? If a group is not utterly intolerant of spiritual thoughts, beliefs, or utterances other than your particular version of Catholicism they're heretics - and membership in, or even association with, that group is forbidden. IIRC, the Boy Scouts have always allowed membership by people who aren't practicing [your brand] Catholics; what should be done with that organization?? Are members of BSA barred from communion?? Hell, a quarter of my troop were guys from the same Catholic family... |
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Originally Posted By cmw: I had forgotten how crazy these 'discussions' get... Tell me about times you were present at an event or gathering and a prayer was offered, or a 'moment of silence' was observed -lead by someone not of your precise religious brand. Who were you all (''you all") praying to? Were you, all, praying to the same diety? Who were you -individually- praying to? If you were ever in such a situation, and especially if you continue to put yourself in such positions, shouldn't you be barred from communion for joining in false rites and ceremonies, and praying to false deities? If a group is not utterly intolerant of spiritual thoughts, beliefs, or utterances other than your particular version of Catholicism they're heretics - and membership in, or even association with, that group is forbidden. IIRC, the Boy Scouts have always allowed membership by people who aren't practicing [your brand] Catholics; what should be done with that organization?? Are members of BSA barred from communion?? Hell, a quarter of my troop were guys from the same Catholic family... Originally Posted By cmw: Originally Posted By 11boomboom: And what Catholics are saying is you're not actually praying to God, but a counterfeit god as He doesn't recognize those supplications as they're not directed solely to Him. Tell me about times you were present at an event or gathering and a prayer was offered, or a 'moment of silence' was observed -lead by someone not of your precise religious brand. Who were you all (''you all") praying to? Were you, all, praying to the same diety? Who were you -individually- praying to? If you were ever in such a situation, and especially if you continue to put yourself in such positions, shouldn't you be barred from communion for joining in false rites and ceremonies, and praying to false deities? If a group is not utterly intolerant of spiritual thoughts, beliefs, or utterances other than your particular version of Catholicism they're heretics - and membership in, or even association with, that group is forbidden. IIRC, the Boy Scouts have always allowed membership by people who aren't practicing [your brand] Catholics; what should be done with that organization?? Are members of BSA barred from communion?? Hell, a quarter of my troop were guys from the same Catholic family... Lots of times. The point is if it's to God and not facilitating some type of counterfeit version of God or errant theology. If you participate in knowingly wrongful prayer, you are sinning. Catholics who participate in Freemasonry are knowingly going against Catholic doctrine and committing grave sin. Doesn't matter what you or I think about it. It's as simple as that. |
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Originally Posted By 11boomboom: Lots of times. The point is if it's to God and not facilitating some type of counterfeit version of God or errant theology. If you participate in knowingly wrongful prayer, you are sinning. Catholics who participate in Freemasonry are knowingly going against and committing grave sin. Doesn't matter what you or I think about it. It's as simple as that. So it's facilitating a counterfeit deity and errant theology if you say so, but not when you do it. Thanks. |
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Originally Posted By cmw: Didn't want to actually address my questions or examples. So it's facilitating a counterfeit deity and errant theology if you say so, but not when you do it. Thanks. Originally Posted By cmw: Originally Posted By 11boomboom: Lots of times. The point is if it's to God and not facilitating some type of counterfeit version of God or errant theology. If you participate in knowingly wrongful prayer, you are sinning. Catholics who participate in Freemasonry are knowingly going against and committing grave sin. Doesn't matter what you or I think about it. It's as simple as that. So it's facilitating a counterfeit deity and errant theology if you say so, but not when you do it. Thanks. Are you Catholic or a Freemason? |
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This thread alone shows the religious indifferentism and liberalism inherent in Freemasonry, it’s nothing less than the liturgy of liberalism and therefore it is irreconcilable with Christ’s Church. Jesus Christ is the only way to God. |
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Originally Posted By Gullskjegg: So the purpose of this thread is what? To attack the Catholic Church for teaching Jesus Christ is the only way? Originally Posted By Gullskjegg: Originally Posted By doubleplusgood: They have been lied to about what masonry is and is not So the purpose of this thread is what? To attack the Catholic Church for teaching Jesus Christ is the only way? The thread intent here, from my perspective; the proposition is another detractor from the focus or intent of this forum. Freemasonry is a counterfeit light and any mature believer in the Lord Jesus Christ should have that discernment in him. Just like the thread sliding to avoid discussing the hard topics, these type are detractors. Jesus isn't a religion, He is a person, a real man. I came here to know Him more, not necessarily what religion you practice or tradition you follow. Now whether Freemasonry is a religion or not this does not matter to me. Freemasonry says that they have light and knowledge. The light they do have is darkness. Jesus is the Light of the world. God is light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. I've tried in my life time (experience) to be a part of brotherhood(s), to fit in and to be a good and righteous person. Now, I will never fit in with the world. What the world offers is dead to me. I've found in my journey that Freemasonry is not the way. Incidentally I'm not a catholic adherent either. I am accepted in the beloved, God has demonstrated personally, He gives freely His own love towards me. Jesus the Son of God, He died for my sin. I will follow Him. The Holy Spirit is my witness. I ask: Have you considered Jesus? He is the Light of the world. Luke 11:34-36 Your eye is the lamp of your body. When your eye is healthy, your whole body is full of light, but when it is bad, your body is full of darkness. Therefore be careful lest the light in you be darkness. If then your whole body is full of light, having no part dark, it will be wholly bright, as when a lamp with its rays gives you light.” There shouldn't be an argument here about freemasonry being right or 'of God'. However some of the zealots might think they're being attacked by something or someone they do not control with their own form of religious exclusivity. So here we are. Pay attention: Freemasonry is deceitful and the men who practice it are being decieved. This is easy peasy for those who can hear the Word of God. Freemasonry is counterfeit light and knowledge (false). He who has an ear to hear, let him hear. John 1:4-5 In him was life, and the life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. Hebrews 4:13 And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account. I grieve until these decieved men can hear the Word of God, we can pray that God would open their eyes so that they can see the Light of Christ. He is the true light. I do love my catholic brothers! Some of you hate me! My question for you: what will the called out assembly look like? Will we look like the New Jerusalem? We must abide in these; faith, hope and Love. These three, Love is the greatest. Anyhow, good morning. 
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Its not just RCs. Vast swaths of Christendom raise a rightfully suspicious eye towards freemasons. This thread is a great example why. The freemasons here say that freemasonry is non religious, but those who try to describe it further end up describing a pluralistic organization that makes it incompatible with Christianity. So which is it? Is it non religious or religiously pluralistic? |
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Originally Posted By Bishop3:I do love my catholic brothers! Some of you hate me! My question for you: what will the called out assembly look like? Will we look like the New Jerusalem? We must abide in these; faith, hope and Love. These three, Love is the greatest. Anyhow, good morning. |
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Originally Posted By Bishop3: I do love my catholic brothers! Some of you hate me! Anyhow, good morning. Originally Posted By Bishop3: Originally Posted By Gullskjegg: Originally Posted By doubleplusgood: They have been lied to about what masonry is and is not So the purpose of this thread is what? To attack the Catholic Church for teaching Jesus Christ is the only way? I do love my catholic brothers! Some of you hate me! Anyhow, good morning. Hate you? None of us hate you, just brotherly love, my friend. |
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Originally Posted By Gullskjegg: Hate you? None of us hate you, just brotherly love, my friend. Originally Posted By Gullskjegg: Originally Posted By Bishop3: Originally Posted By Gullskjegg: Originally Posted By doubleplusgood: They have been lied to about what masonry is and is not So the purpose of this thread is what? To attack the Catholic Church for teaching Jesus Christ is the only way? I do love my catholic brothers! Some of you hate me! Anyhow, good morning. Hate you? None of us hate you, just brotherly love, my friend. Love you more! 
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