[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Someone school me on backfeeding or pig tailing a generator back into the house. (Page 9 of 13)
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my panel (Square D, 200 amp) so no sticking forks into that area... 
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Question for you guys....
My breaker panel is full. SquareD QO 200 amp. I'd like to make space for a 30amp backfeed breaker with interlock setup, but I obviously dont have room. I cannot help but notice that most of my breakers feeding the rooms in the home are 20 amp, single pole, tandem circuit breakers. However, the 4 upper right breakers in the picture are single pole single circuit 20 amp breakers. Can I simply consolidate those top 4 single circuit breakers into 2 tandem circuit breakers, to add in my backfeed breaker? 
EDIT - nevermind - I think jedi just answered this, and now I remember already going through this when I added in circuits for my RV connection and my garage fridge dedicated circuit, only a subset of the positions allow for tandem, and I am maxed out there I am pretty sure. 
What are my options? |
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Question for you guys.... My breaker panel is full. SquareD QO 200 amp. I'd like to make space for a 30amp backfeed breaker with interlock setup, but I obviously dont have room. I cannot help but notice that most of my breakers feeding the rooms in the home are 20 amp, single pole, tandem circuit breakers. However, the 4 upper right breakers in the picture are single pole single circuit 20 amp breakers. Can I simply consolidate those top 4 single circuit breakers into 2 tandem circuit breakers, to add in my backfeed breaker? https://s26.postimg.org/vn4qh3w2h/screenshot_203.jpg ar-jedi |
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yes. ar-jedi Quoted:
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Question for you guys.... My breaker panel is full. SquareD QO 200 amp. I'd like to make space for a 30amp backfeed breaker with interlock setup, but I obviously dont have room. I cannot help but notice that most of my breakers feeding the rooms in the home are 20 amp, single pole, tandem circuit breakers. However, the 4 upper right breakers in the picture are single pole single circuit 20 amp breakers. Can I simply consolidate those top 4 single circuit breakers into 2 tandem circuit breakers, to add in my backfeed breaker? https://s26.postimg.org/vn4qh3w2h/screenshot_203.jpg ar-jedi 
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Question for you guys.... My breaker panel is full. SquareD QO 200 amp. I'd like to make space for a 30amp backfeed breaker with interlock setup, but I obviously dont have room. I cannot help but notice that most of my breakers feeding the rooms in the home are 20 amp, single pole, tandem circuit breakers. However, the 4 upper right breakers in the picture are single pole single circuit 20 amp breakers. Can I simply consolidate those top 4 single circuit breakers into 2 tandem circuit breakers, to add in my backfeed breaker? https://s26.postimg.org/vn4qh3w2h/screenshot_203.jpg |
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30amp backfeed breaker 1) use a 30A breaker, 10AWG wire (nominal, depending on run), and a Reliance PB30 inlet. 2) use a 50A breaker, 6AWG wire (nominal, depending on run), and a Reliance PB50 inlet. the cost of the 30A breaker is roughly the same as the 50A breaker. the cost of the Reliance PB30 inlet is roughly the same as the Reliance PB50 inlet. as you can see the only significant cost is the length of 10AWG vs 6AWG cabling. if the distance between the service panel and the inlet is relatively short, i would use a 50A breaker and the PB50 inlet, along with 6AWG wire. this means you are covered if one afternoon in the future you decide to get a bigger generator or circumstances conspire such that need a bigger generator. 30A inlet/breaker = 7200W maximum. 50A inlet/breaker = 12,000W maximum. otherwise, the 30A inlet/breaker will suit you just fine. ar-jedi |
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No, your argument is lost and you can't even find any more straws go grasp at so you keep pulling up this shitty analogy that makes no sense at all for the reasons I have already explained several times. Also, please show where I am promoting it for other people. I am saying this works for me, and it is at least as safe as an interlock or transfer switch, if not more so. Please explain to all of us how pulling the fuse from the pole and chaining it and padlocking it to the generator is more dangerous than an interlock. All you can say is that I could forget a step, which is certainly easier to do with an interlock, or changing an outlet in your house, or handling a loaded weapon. Quoted:
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What you are doing here is no different than attempting to rationalize how it's fine to keep your finger on the trigger at all times, and it's OK to point guns at people. You keep saying how great it is to pull the fuse on the pole, but you ignore (and conveniently edit out of the quotes) where people told you about the risk of making a mistake and doing it in the wrong order, or forgetting to do it. It's the SAME EXACT REASON why you wouldn't point your gun at someone and pull the trigger. Because even though you checked it, you don't want to get into that habit and one time make a mistake and not check it, and kill that person. You are promoting illegal and dangerous actions, nothing you say will change that. You are wrong, you have no leg to stand on. Also, please show where I am promoting it for other people. I am saying this works for me, and it is at least as safe as an interlock or transfer switch, if not more so. Please explain to all of us how pulling the fuse from the pole and chaining it and padlocking it to the generator is more dangerous than an interlock. All you can say is that I could forget a step, which is certainly easier to do with an interlock, or changing an outlet in your house, or handling a loaded weapon. |
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EDIT - nevermind - I think jedi just answered this, and now I remember already going through this when I added in circuits for my RV connection and my garage fridge dedicated circuit, only a subset of the positions allow for tandem, and I am maxed out there I am pretty sure.
What are my options? 
b) do you need hot water? 
c) do you need an electric stove? 
hmmm... 1) external transfer switch, e.g. 10 position, would give you 10 circuits of generator power routing. 2) you are sure you can't position tandems in the upper locations? |
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EDIT - nevermind - I think jedi just answered this, and now I remember already going through this when I added in circuits for my RV connection and my garage fridge dedicated circuit, only a subset of the positions allow for tandem, and I am maxed out there I am pretty sure.
What are my options? In your situation you can do as I said earlier and combine some circuits that don't have much load on them, or install a subpanel. |
| For those people with full panels, it's not a big deal at all. I find full panels in half of my customer's homes. I can add a subpanel and move some circuits over to it in less than 2 hours. Then they could do whatever they want (interlock, vehicle charger, more dedicated circuits, etc.) and still have space left over for the future. |
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@MrGoodkat. So, do you take pills or something? Just curious, because you can never seem to admit when you are obviously wrong. Go ahead, it is okay, I just want to hear it once and I won't torment you further. You clearly stated that you pull the fuse above your meter at the power pole on the post I called you out on. That is what was confusing to me, since only lineman and electrical contractors usually mess with these. Turns out you just did not know the proper name, or how that equipment you were utilizing was positioned electrically. You are actually pulling fuseS at the bottom of the pole below the meter, this is a lot different then your post I called you on and makes a lot more sense to someone who knows what they are doing. What you showed in your picture, that is actually below the meter, is called a fused main disconnect, not a fuse. Above the meter is usually the utilities property so don't worry about that stuff- but there is probably a tub, arrestor, jumper, cut out, and hot line clamp. You might want to look at installing a main breaker- instead of those ancient fuses. The room that is left over in your secondary loop would accommodate a DT DP switch too. 
And I clear my weapon the same as everyone else on ARF, fire until empty, then reload from my huge ammo fort. It is never dry!   All that matters is that I can pull the fuse carrier out to clearly, positively, and safely disconnect my house.
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Thanks for pointing out that I said above. I obviously meant below. That changes everything. All that matters is that I can pull the fuse carrier out to clearly, positively, and safely disconnect my house. |
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No, it's not. My argument is supported by everyone who matters. Every academic, every member of the code making panel. Every municipality. Every inspector. Every real electrical contractor. Everyone. It's only you and a couple of other cheap podunk hacks who are arguing, and your argument is damn stupid. This is a blatant lie. It's false. You sir, are a liar. Your method is NOT safer than a transfer switch or interlock. Your method requires you to perform tasks in a certain order. If you don't perform them in that order, your method is extremely dangerous. You can easily get mixed up or forget, especially during a crisis. A interlock or transfer switch won't allow you to mess up that order, it's youproof, I mean foolproof. Therefore it is MUCH safer and that is why it's legal while your method is against the law and seen as dangerous by everyone across the board. No, it's not. There is no way to forget a step with an interlock because there is no way to make a mistake. That is the entire point of an interlock, it prevents you from doing anything dangerous. I understand that you are ignorant of how an interlock works, and that's why you just said what you said. But you need to embrace your ignorance, stop talking, and read what is being said to you in order to educate yourself. Now, it appears that the only thing you are doing is trying to waste my time. You will never convince me that my method is unsafe, just as you will probably never admit that it is safe, so consider us done here. |
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Doesn't that contradict everything you've been arguing for the last few pages? The code has changed removing the maximum amount of breakers in a loadcenter since there was no good reason behind it. There is very good reason behind using proper transfer equipment. |
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LOL. I fully understand what an interlock is. It bolts on your panel and allows you to have only the generator feed breaker or the main breaker to be on at one time. While interlocks are obviously acceptably safe, there are more mechanical pieces that can potentially fail in an interlock and breakers (as already mentioned in this thread) than in positively disconnecting the house from the grid. It is called a disconnect for a reason, right? Now, it appears that the only thing you are doing is trying to waste my time. You will never convince me that my method is unsafe, just as you will probably never admit that it is safe, so consider us done here. |
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Amazing how many home inspectors don't know that. lol Quoted:
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The QO breakers can be double tapped. 
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LOL. I fully understand what an interlock is. It bolts on your panel and allows you to have only the generator feed breaker or the main breaker to be on at one time. While interlocks are obviously acceptably safe, there are more mechanical pieces that can potentially fail in an interlock and breakers (as already mentioned in this thread) than in positively disconnecting the house from the grid. It is called a disconnect for a reason, right? Now, it appears that the only thing you are doing is trying to waste my time. You will never convince me that my method is unsafe, just as you will probably never admit that it is safe, so consider us done here. |
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Interesting - so in my case, I could remove the top two breakers, and move the hot wires down to the next two breakers just beneath them, assuming that their normal use combined would not trip the breaker? https://s26.postimg.org/wu0r9q9ll/screenshot_204.jpg |
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So what I'm gathering from this thread is that while using a suicide cord is not ideal it will work and is perfectly safe as long as you turn your main breaker off and don't live in a rural area. you can extend the definition of layperson to include: - your children - your wife - your neighbor who is doing you and your wife a favor while you are not at home and your wife has a problem - anyone else who may be around - you (*) (*) don't discount that when you are tired, physically fatigued, cold, holding a flashlight, standing in water, etc etc etc, all of your mental acuity and acquired expertise may be compromised. |
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Interesting - so in my case, I could remove the top two breakers, and move the hot wires down to the next two breakers just beneath them, assuming that their normal use combined would not trip the breaker? https://s26.postimg.org/wu0r9q9ll/screenshot_204.jpg otherwise, tandems. ar-jedi |
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I have no idea how you deduced that based on this thread. |
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no, it's not "perfectly safe" -- there will always be the possibility of a layperson not understanding that with the generator running the exposed metal contacts on the far end of the suicide cord have lethal voltages present. you can extend the definition of layperson to include: - your children - your wife - your neighbor who is doing you and your wife a favor while you are not at home and your wife has a problem - anyone else who may be around - you (*) (*) don't discount that when you are tired, physically fatigued, cold, holding a flashlight, standing in water, etc etc etc, all of your mental acuity and acquired expertise may be compromised. |
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You will never convince me that my method is unsafe, just as you will probably never admit that it is safe, so consider us done here. So you got called out on pure bull shit, and instead of owning it and admitting you are wrong, you double down on your derp. I have said some dumb stuff before and got called on it, at least I was man enough to admit I was wrong or mixed up. It also made me want to learn why I was wrong, I chose to stop living in ignorance. So explain to everyone why would people that know what they are talking about agree something is safe from a guy- you- that is clearly... uhm.... not mentally able to understand a simple service drop and its component interactions even when explained to them? That is rich! Attached File 
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I mean it's safe for the homeowner and linemen as long as the circuit isn't overloaded and the right gauge of wire is used. Won't the generator just overload and shut down in a non rural area because of the other houses nearby if the main breaker is still on? I mean according to the last several pages it seems only dangerous when one house is on its own line away from other houses.
There have been several people in the industry that have reported something different in this same thread. |
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can't you just plug in the cable to the generator last to keep from touching the end? 
but does anyone and everyone who would be working with/around the backup power situation understand this? normal people by definition consider an extension cord as a safe thing which won't kill them. so they see an extension cord, and think "that thing is designed to be safe, to not kill me, and i have lots of experience with them as safe." and yet now you have created a situation where one end of the suicide cord WILL kill them. that's not my or anyone else's definition of "perfectly safe" -- your words. your wife goes down to the basement to get some bottled water during the power outage. in the limited lighting she trips over the suicide cord running from the generator outside to a receptacle in the basement. the plug comes out of the receptacle. now there are no lights on in the basement, and only a tiny sliver of sunlight peers in through a small window. she feels at her feet and locates the cable on the floor. she thinks to herself, "all i have to do now is run my hand up the cable to find the plug on the end, and guide it back into the receptacle." because extension cords are safe things. ar-jedi |
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Critique these choices for a 30-amp solution with interlock, for a Square D QO:
$51 - Inlet box - http://a.co/dL7xPtE $51 - interlock - http://a.co/dC0yn0g $38 - wire - http://a.co/jjbFYoD $22 - breaker - http://a.co/aTzE9SK $55 - cord - http://a.co/0CpSgK3 $25 - cord plug - http://a.co/1dCxtfc ------------------------------------- $242 (my Champion 3100W generator has an RV receptacle... hence the cord choice.) |
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Critique these choices for a 30-amp solution with interlock, for a Square D QO: $51 - Inlet box - http://a.co/dL7xPtE $51 - interlock - http://a.co/dC0yn0g $38 - wire - http://a.co/jjbFYoD $22 - breaker - http://a.co/aTzE9SK $55 - cord - http://a.co/0CpSgK3 $25 - cord plug - http://a.co/1dCxtfc ------------------------------------- $242 (my Champion 3100W generator has an RV receptacle... hence the cord choice.) This cord: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000HS2LBQ/ref=od_aui_detailpages01?ie=UTF8&psc=1 Here is the adapter: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06XRM7PPD/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A3DS44SIO06CTJ It's not cheap, but it's a really clean installation and the adapter has bridged hots inside meaning it will power both legs for you (since your generator is 120V only). |
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I would recommend getting a normal cord that could be used on other generators, and an adapter. This cord: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000HS2LBQ/ref=od_aui_detailpages01?ie=UTF8&psc=1 Here is the adapter: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06XRM7PPD/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A3DS44SIO06CTJ It's not cheap, but it's a really clean installation and the adapter has bridged hots inside meaning it will power both legs for you (since your generator is 120V only). ar-jedi |
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For those people with full panels, it's not a big deal at all. I find full panels in half of my customer's homes. I can add a subpanel and move some circuits over to it in less than 2 hours. Then they could do whatever they want (interlock, vehicle charger, more dedicated circuits, etc.) and still have space left over for the future. |
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Here is an adapter for attaching a smaller generator with a standard plug like a Honda EU2000i: https://www.amazon.com/AC-WORKS-AD515L1430-Household-Generator/dp/B074PWJVWC/ref=sr_1_2?s=hi
You would use the large 120/240v 30A cord with this adapter. The adapter also has the hots internally bridged. |
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@MrGoodkat So you got called out on pure bull shit, and instead of owning it and admitting you are wrong, you double down on your derp. I have said some dumb stuff before and got called on it, at least I was man enough to admit I was wrong or mixed up. It also made me want to learn why I was wrong, I chose to stop living in ignorance. So explain to everyone why would people that know what they are talking about agree something is safe from a guy- you- that is clearly... uhm.... not mentally able to understand a simple service drop and its component interactions even when explained to them? That is rich! https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/193427/8a202184c338637c55139ba665ce60e1c5ced87cf032df9e1131b7b21b7e31d6-308298.JPG This is precious. All you are grasping onto is the fact that I mistakenly said “above” instead of “below.” Or because I referred to a fusible disconnect as a fuse. I am fully aware that pulling the disconnect will clearly, visibly, and unquestionably disconnect my house from the line whether it is located below the meter, on my house, or in my shower next to the cookies. You are fully aware of this too, but somehow refuse to admit that this is the case and would rather change the subject by grasping at some very short straws or discussing the utility features at the top of the pole or name calling an personal attacks. I could padlock the thing to my generator if I really wanted to for an additional safety feature. Now, please explain to me how I’m going to kill a linemen by doing this. Also, you said working in a hot panel is common practice and acceptable by your standards of safety, and I agree with you. Now please explain how what I am doing is more dangerous. Please tell me how many people have been electrocuted by working in a hot panel and how many people have been electrocuted by homeowner generators backfeeding a power grid. |
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In the Irma thread, you have people bitching about how long it takes for linemen to restore power. In this thread, you have people advocating the very things that delay a lineman's ability to restore power. Quoted:
In the Irma thread, you have people bitching about how long it takes for linemen to restore power. In this thread, you have people advocating the very things that delay a lineman's ability to restore power. I'm curious though how people with solar power are treated under this regime. Since a solar power system has the same hazards, but generates no sound to be able to detect the hazard. Many solar systems are intentionally designed to feed power back into the grid. So solar is more dangerous than generators. No one is this thread that I have seen has advocated anything that delays a lineman's ability to restore power, other than the bare possession and use of a generator. Quoted:
Here is an adapter for attaching a smaller generator with a standard plug like a Honda EU2000i: https://www.amazon.com/AC-WORKS-AD515L1430-Household-Generator/dp/B074PWJVWC/ref=sr_1_2?s=hi You would use the large 120/240v 30A cord with this adapter. The adapter also has the hots internally bridged. Quoted:
can't you just plug in the cable to the generator last to keep from touching the end? |
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Ban generators, for the linemen. That's the only way to ensure that someone doesn't do something stupid. Generators kill. Quoted:
Ban generators, for the linemen. That's the only way to ensure that someone doesn't do something stupid. Generators kill. I'm curious though how people with solar power are treated under this regime. Since a solar power system has the same hazards, but generates no sound to be able to detect the hazard. Many solar systems are intentionally designed to feed power back into the grid. So solar is more dangerous than generators. Since you bring it up, I'll repeat the question I asked earlier. How could a transformer, with the 240 side shorted together (bridged), produce any voltage on the high voltage side? |
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No need to ban. Why not do like we do with firearms and make up a set of rules and provisions to follow in order to safely handle them? We can call it the National Electrical Code. Quoted:
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Ban generators, for the linemen. That's the only way to ensure that someone doesn't do something stupid. Generators kill. You also don't have a way to ensure a solar system is installed correctly with the same results. |
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If anyone with a generator is suspect and prevents linemen from working, then any code is irrelevant since you don't have a way to ensure that people are following it. You also don't have a way to ensure a solar system is installed correctly with the same results. Quoted:
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Ban generators, for the linemen. That's the only way to ensure that someone doesn't do something stupid. Generators kill. You also don't have a way to ensure a solar system is installed correctly with the same results. And if a solar system is installed incorrectly, it too will cause the linemen to perform more steps, taking more time, to restore power safely. |