[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Sig M18 might have just killed an Airman (Page 23 of 28)
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Quoted: Another Big Blue knee-jerk reaction? So did the general get correct or incorrect information prior to his memo? If incorrect, yeah, that’s going to leave a mark. And heads will roll. It's a class A. If you have a jet go down it is normal to ground the fleet until you find out enough to determine it's safe to fly. The reaction to this event is inline with a class A (deaths in the line of duty warrant a Class A safety investigation). I would not call it knee-jerk at all because that is normal. Add to that, the 320 has a sketchy reputation, it makes the reaction perfectly acceptable. |
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Quoted: It's a class A. If you have a jet go down it is normal to ground the fleet until you find out enough to determine it's safe to fly. The reaction to this event is inline with a class A (deaths in the line of duty warrant a Class A safety investigation). I would not call it knee-jerk at all because that is normal. Add to that, the 320 has a sketchy reputation, it makes the reaction perfectly acceptable. Quoted: Quoted: Another Big Blue knee-jerk reaction? So did the general get correct or incorrect information prior to his memo? If incorrect, yeah, that’s going to leave a mark. And heads will roll. It's a class A. If you have a jet go down it is normal to ground the fleet until you find out enough to determine it's safe to fly. The reaction to this event is inline with a class A (deaths in the line of duty warrant a Class A safety investigation). I would not call it knee-jerk at all because that is normal. Add to that, the 320 has a sketchy reputation, it makes the reaction perfectly acceptable. Depends on how soon after the incident, especially if the cause is unknown/suspicious. Within the first 12 hours, very believable. After 24 hours, then there should be some data to make an informed decision as to “ground the fleet” or not. Obviously if you find out after 24 hours that there is potentially a fleet problem, absolutely ground the fleet. I’d like to think that if there was horseplay involved then that should have been evident early on. Whatever. Not my circus. Not my monkeys. |
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Quoted: Maybe they can fix the problem of the rear sights coming off once this wraps up. Man, back in the day that would have been an easy fix with some 100mph tape. Loose is acceptable, lost is a major problem. Did the holy trinity of problem solving (para cord, 100 mph tape and skillcraft pens) get phased out of the .mil? |
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Quoted: Man, back in the day that would have been an easy fix with some 100mph tape. Loose is acceptable, lost is a major problem. Did the holy trinity of problem solving (para cord, 100 mph tape and skillcraft pens) get phased out of the .mil? Quoted: Quoted: Maybe they can fix the problem of the rear sights coming off once this wraps up. Man, back in the day that would have been an easy fix with some 100mph tape. Loose is acceptable, lost is a major problem. Did the holy trinity of problem solving (para cord, 100 mph tape and skillcraft pens) get phased out of the .mil? Those all still exist and have been supplemented with wire/zip ties.  Sig didn't use any thread locker on the rear sight/optic cut cover plate on them with predictable results. Easy fix really. Just laziness on Sig's part. |
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Quoted: The only ND we had at the last range job was a cased rifle. A servicemember who was going shooting with us had just returned from the GWOT and had been there when the "no chambered round" doctrine for some units was "lets have the mag in, bolt back and locked". |
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Quoted: Still nothing further. I'm sure it'll either leak at some point or we'll get something official. The rumors are getting more interesting and I love the "I'll check with my relative who is in the AF" comments. |
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Quoted: Next question. Would that be assumed to be because there are vastly more LEOs and .mil personnel carrying them? |
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Quoted: It's a class A. If you have a jet go down it is normal to ground the fleet until you find out enough to determine it's safe to fly. The reaction to this event is inline with a class A (deaths in the line of duty warrant a Class A safety investigation). I would not call it knee-jerk at all because that is normal. Add to that, the 320 has a sketchy reputation, it makes the reaction perfectly acceptable. Quoted: Quoted: Another Big Blue knee-jerk reaction? So did the general get correct or incorrect information prior to his memo? If incorrect, yeah, that’s going to leave a mark. And heads will roll. It's a class A. If you have a jet go down it is normal to ground the fleet until you find out enough to determine it's safe to fly. The reaction to this event is inline with a class A (deaths in the line of duty warrant a Class A safety investigation). I would not call it knee-jerk at all because that is normal. Add to that, the 320 has a sketchy reputation, it makes the reaction perfectly acceptable. In my 27 years in the AF I’ve never seen a ND lead to a “pause” in carrying a weapon system across a MAJCOM. |
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Quoted: Pretty standard English convention to not capitalize. Capitalizing titles such as “Soldier” or “Airman” is normal practice in the military. I’ve been told it is mandatory in official correspondence and documentation, though I have no idea where I’d look up such a rule*. Good luck finding a Marine that doesn’t capitalize. *Edit: 30 seconds on Duck Duck Go. AR 360-1, para. 13-12b. I almost forgot that they added “Family” to that list a decade ago. |
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Quoted: Not have I. But I have also never seen an ND/AD lead to a death. This is a class A safety investigation just like an aircraft crash. Quoted: Quoted: In my 27 years in the AF I’ve never seen a ND lead to a “pause” in carrying a weapon system across a MAJCOM. Not have I. But I have also never seen an ND/AD lead to a death. This is a class A safety investigation just like an aircraft crash. I really don’t think that the class of the mishap matters when “pausing” the carrying of a AF-wide fielded handgun in only one MAJCOM. None of that follows historical convention in these things UNLESS there was clear evidence and statements that the gun went off in the holster. My opinion only, of course. But that’s why it surprises me the ANG commander put out a premature statement saying it was (and I’m paraphrasing) likely a procedural error that led to the death. If I was a family member of the dead airman, I’d be pissed that the General blamed my loved one if it’s found out that the sig went off inside the holster. If it turns out that the Defenders were finger-fucking that M18 in BDOC and shot one of their own, I hope they publicly crucify them. |
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Quoted: Pretty standard English convention to not capitalize. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Why? You don't need to capitalize "soldier", "sailor" or "marine" when talking about them. Surely you jest, Mortarman? Pretty standard English convention to not capitalize. The ARFCOM style guide says capitalize whatever the fuck you want, and then bitch & whine when someone else doesn't do the same.  |
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My post from a few pages back: Quoted: Quoted: Friggin Stars and Stripes. Capitalize "Airman". Capital A. Idiots. It's always capitalized. Why? You don't need to capitalize "soldier", "sailor" or "marine" when talking about them. General Jumper said so. Take it up with him. https://www.af.mil/News/Commentaries/Display/Article/142333/airman-with-a-capital-a/ Airman with a capital “A” Published March 23, 2004 By General John P. Jumper Chief of Staff WASHINGTON (AFPN) -- I am an Airman. Note that is with a capital “A.” It is just one letter at the beginning of the word, but it signifies a great deal. The reason it is capitalized is simple: Airmen in the United States Air Force are the heart and soul of our unique fighting force, and should be identified by a proper noun. As young children, when we began to read, we learned a capital letter at the front of a word signified something special or important, like our own name, our hometown, and our country. This was reinforced throughout our education and professional life. When we see a capital letter, our minds automatically emphasize that word, and we bestow an increased importance on that person, place, or thing. It is time to formally add our profession to that list of important and special nouns. You may have seen or heard something about my guidance to capitalize the word “Airman.” It is appropriate to do so, in recognition of our rich history, and to emphasize our unparalleled role in the defense of America. Our Air Force is the finest air and space force in the world because of the generations of professional Airmen who have devoted their lives to dominating the skies. Capitalizing the word “Airman” recognizes their historic achievements and signifies our unique contributions to fighting and winning America’s wars. It shows we have earned the respect a proper name imparts. For 38 years of my life, I have been proud to wear the uniform of the United States Air Force. And, whether you have worn it as long as I have or have just recently joined our team, I know we all feel the same sense of pride. Regardless of the uniform we wear, the specialty we hold, the badge over our pocket, and whether we are active duty, Guard, Reserve, or civilian, first and foremost, we are Airmen. We are one Air Force and we are Airmen. |
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Quoted: Obviously, I haven’t been in every unit, but I’ve never heard of such an SOP in the GWOT. Quoted: Quoted: The only ND we had at the last range job was a cased rifle. A servicemember who was going shooting with us had just returned from the GWOT and had been there when the "no chambered round" doctrine for some units was "lets have the mag in, bolt back and locked". It literally makes no sense. Anyone who knows anything about the AR platform knows that the bolt lock device doesn't protect against the bolt being bounced or jarred and going forward. The bolt lock is spring loaded and only held locked by the pressure of the bolt which is under pressure from the buffer spring. If you leave a rifle that way it's really only a matter of when the bolt is going to go forward, not if. The AR is safer with a round in the chamber and the safety on than in that retarded configuration. |
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Quoted: Still nothing further. I'm sure it'll either leak at some point or we'll get something official. The rumors are getting more interesting and I love the "I'll check with my relative who is in the AF" comments. |
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Ben Stoeger looks like he finally took a shower and posted a new YT yesterday after being away for awhile. He says that the Air Force investigation has turned into a criminal investigation. Homicide? Negligence ? Trespassing, J-Walking, Pissing outside of the barracks while trying to hold your holster up so you dont pee on it? Tell us! Running a YT channel in your bedroom with the bed as the back drop in some of his videos is so classy. Anyhow FWIW, YMMV . |
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The general’s memo said: “This pause will remain in place until completion of ongoing AFOSI and Safety investigations into a recent incident at F.E. Warren AFB.” So if AFGSC lifted their pause (if true?), then I guess the investigations are complete. If not, the general had no plans to make this pause actually last the durations of these investigations. Because I’m sure they’ll take at least a minimum 30 days. Which is it? |
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So if the AF now thinks it's a murder, not an accident, why wouldn't they have arrested anyone? If it were just 2 guys in the room, it would be pretty easy to figure out whodunit. If there were multiple people in the room, I'm sure they'd point out the guilty party. Only reasons I could think they haven't is; 1. They still aren't certain if it was a murder or accident. 2. There were 2 others who are each saying the other one did it, both have gun residue on them, and both stories are equally as plausible. 3. There was more than one other person but they were both/all in on it & they are trying to sort it out. I find it more plausible that it was much closer to the original story about an UD or it was some type of horseplay that also resulted in an UD, which I don't think rises to murder, especially if the airman who got killed was a willing participant. It is still an unfortunate accident where Sig & the people who adopted it without going through the full testing it should have who are most culpable. |
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Quoted: So if the AF now thinks it's a murder, not an accident, why wouldn't they have arrested anyone? If it were just 2 guys in the room, it would be pretty easy to figure out whodunit. If there were multiple people in the room, I'm sure they'd point out the guilty party. Only reasons I could think they haven't is; 1. They still aren't certain if it was a murder or accident. 2. There were 2 others who are each saying the other one did it, both have gun residue on them, and both stories are equally as plausible. 3. There was more than one other person but they were both/all in on it & they are trying to sort it out. I find it more plausible that it was much closer to the original story about an UD or it was some type of horseplay that also resulted in an UD, which I don't think rises to murder, especially if the airman who got killed was a willing participant. It is still an unfortunate accident where Sig & the people who adopted it without going through the full testing it should have who are most culpable. I would not go down the "murder" path just yet. Let the investigators figure it out. Gun residue on a defender or his uniform. Pretty much everyone has some form of firearm residue on them. I got hit in the airport at San Francisco once because their sniffers found explosives on my bags. Guess what, of course my bags have explosives on them, I work with bombs every damn day and my coats, boots, uniforms etc are in my closet with my luggage. It took some explaining, leave papers etc. before the TSA would let me walk. |
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Quoted: Either the original story or this are the most likely stories in my opinion. Quoted: Quoted: some type of horseplay that also resulted in an UD And Occam's Razor applies. The weapons are back on the hips of our defenders with an inspection of course. |
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Quoted: And Occam's Razor applies. The weapons are back on the hips of our defenders with an inspection of course. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: some type of horseplay that also resulted in an UD And Occam's Razor applies. The weapons are back on the hips of our defenders with an inspection of course. |
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Quoted: And Occam's Razor applies. The weapons are back on the hips of our defenders with an inspection of course. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: some type of horseplay that also resulted in an UD And Occam's Razor applies. The weapons are back on the hips of our defenders with an inspection of course. That will do little to dissuade those that jumped all over the original story. |
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Quoted: And Occam's Razor applies. The weapons are back on the hips of our defenders with an inspection of course. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: some type of horseplay that also resulted in an UD And Occam's Razor applies. The weapons are back on the hips of our defenders with an inspection of course. "Inspection." lol |
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Quoted: That will do little to dissuade those that jumped all over the original story. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: some type of horseplay that also resulted in an UD And Occam's Razor applies. The weapons are back on the hips of our defenders with an inspection of course. That will do little to dissuade those that jumped all over the original story. I am waiting for all of the clickbait guntube tards to put up videos retracting their previous clickbait BS. I have a feeling that I will be waiting a while... |
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Quoted: While true… Do you really feel like the DoD has gotten less corrupt? Given what could come out if they start pulling the thread with the M18, it’s procurement, the relationship between the DoD and Sig, retired GO’s getting jobs, etc… You’d be nuts to think there isn’t an immense amount of pressure to find Sig not at fault with this investigation. This right here. |
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Quoted: I am waiting for all of the clickbait guntube tards to put up videos retracting their previous clickbait BS. I have a feeling that I will be waiting a while... Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: some type of horseplay that also resulted in an UD And Occam's Razor applies. The weapons are back on the hips of our defenders with an inspection of course. That will do little to dissuade those that jumped all over the original story. I am waiting for all of the clickbait guntube tards to put up videos retracting their previous clickbait BS. I have a feeling that I will be waiting a while... I wouldn't hold my breath. |
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Quoted: This right here. Quoted: Quoted: While true… Do you really feel like the DoD has gotten less corrupt? Given what could come out if they start pulling the thread with the M18, it’s procurement, the relationship between the DoD and Sig, retired GO’s getting jobs, etc… You’d be nuts to think there isn’t an immense amount of pressure to find Sig not at fault with this investigation. This right here. If you're going to immediately believe the only answer some massive government conspiracy covering up a fatal flaw that somehow not a single member of the entire gun community can find then there really isn't much to discuss. This whole thing has never been about logic or reason, from the start, it's been pure emotion and confirmation bias from people out to get sig and prove that glock should have won the contract. |
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Quoted: If you're going to immediately believe the only answer some massive government conspiracy covering up a fatal flaw that somehow not a single member of the entire gun community can find then there really isn't much to discuss. This whole thing has never been about logic or reason, from the start, it's been pure emotion and confirmation bias from people out to get sig and prove that glock should have won the contract. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: While true… Do you really feel like the DoD has gotten less corrupt? Given what could come out if they start pulling the thread with the M18, it’s procurement, the relationship between the DoD and Sig, retired GO’s getting jobs, etc… You’d be nuts to think there isn’t an immense amount of pressure to find Sig not at fault with this investigation. This right here. If you're going to immediately believe the only answer some massive government conspiracy covering up a fatal flaw that somehow not a single member of the entire gun community can find then there really isn't much to discuss. This whole thing has never been about logic or reason, from the start, it's been pure emotion and confirmation bias from people out to get sig and prove that glock should have won the contract.  You forgot muh post count! |
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Quoted: If you're going to immediately believe the only answer some massive government conspiracy covering up a fatal flaw that somehow not a single member of the entire gun community can find then there really isn't much to discuss. This whole thing has never been about logic or reason, from the start, it's been pure emotion and confirmation bias from people out to get sig and prove that glock should have won the contract. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: While true… Do you really feel like the DoD has gotten less corrupt? Given what could come out if they start pulling the thread with the M18, it’s procurement, the relationship between the DoD and Sig, retired GO’s getting jobs, etc… You’d be nuts to think there isn’t an immense amount of pressure to find Sig not at fault with this investigation. This right here. If you're going to immediately believe the only answer some massive government conspiracy covering up a fatal flaw that somehow not a single member of the entire gun community can find then there really isn't much to discuss. This whole thing has never been about logic or reason, from the start, it's been pure emotion and confirmation bias from people out to get sig and prove that glock should have won the contract. Well for one. It would not surprise me if there is some type of cover up. I am biased against Sig Yes the contract should go to Glock. Not only should the DOD cancel the current Sig contract, but Sig should also be banned from any future military contracts for at least the next couple of decades. They are a horrible company, ran by some horrible individuals, and they need to pay. |
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Quoted: Well for one. It would not surprise me if there is some type of cover up. I am biased against Sig Yes the contract should go to Glock. Not only should the DOD cancel the current Sig contract, but Sig should also be banned from any future military contracts for at least the next couple of decades. They are a horrible company, ran by some horrible individuals, and they need to pay. |
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Quoted: If you're going to immediately believe the only answer some massive government conspiracy covering up a fatal flaw that somehow not a single member of the entire gun community can find then there really isn't much to discuss. This whole thing has never been about logic or reason, from the start, it's been pure emotion and confirmation bias from people out to get sig and prove that glock should have won the contract. |
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Quoted: the sig hate is delusional at this point. no matter what proof comes out saying the gun is safe, or all the alleged issues arent real, no one will care. Attached File But let’s not forget the Marines previously to this incident had commissioned a study resulting in a policy of not carrying the pistol with a chambered round. Not to mention the FBI testing lab that found enough problems to recommend it not be issued. Never was an Sig guy myself. But had a high opinion of them from some old school dudes (not seals) who spoke highly of the P226 guns issued way back when. And always wanted one of the Swiss P210’s. But whatever the final findings of the Airforce, it doesn’t matter at this point. Sig has a publicity problem on its hands. |
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Quoted: If you're going to immediately believe the only answer some massive government conspiracy covering up a fatal flaw that somehow not a single member of the entire gun community can find then there really isn't much to discuss. This whole thing has never been about logic or reason, from the start, it's been pure emotion and confirmation bias from people out to get sig and prove that glock should have won the contract.  |
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Quoted: No doubt. It isn’t a detailed one. Have you read the directive? Quoted: Quoted: "Inspection." lol No doubt. It isn’t a detailed one. Have you read the directive? The document I saw directed recipients to do the standard checks and look for burrs. The document also emphasizes that only the items in the standard checklist are to be examined. Basically, someone wanted to make sure nothing was found, and set the guidance for the inspections accordingly. |
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Quoted: The document I saw directed recipients to do the standard checks and look for burrs. The document also emphasizes that only the items in the standard checklist are to be examined. Basically, someone wanted to make sure nothing was found, and set the guidance for the inspections accordingly. I know for a fact that weapons have been deadlined because of the inspection. |
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Quoted: I know for a fact that weapons have been deadlined because of the inspection. Quoted: Quoted: The document I saw directed recipients to do the standard checks and look for burrs. The document also emphasizes that only the items in the standard checklist are to be examined. Basically, someone wanted to make sure nothing was found, and set the guidance for the inspections accordingly. I know for a fact that weapons have been deadlined because of the inspection. Were they deadlined due to normal parts/maintenance failures? Or due to the defects we now know exist in the P320? |
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Quoted: If you're going to immediately believe the only answer some massive government conspiracy covering up a fatal flaw that somehow not a single member of the entire gun community can find then there really isn't much to discuss. This whole thing has never been about logic or reason, from the start, it's been pure emotion and confirmation bias from people out to get sig and prove that glock should have won the contract. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: While true… Do you really feel like the DoD has gotten less corrupt? Given what could come out if they start pulling the thread with the M18, it’s procurement, the relationship between the DoD and Sig, retired GO’s getting jobs, etc… You’d be nuts to think there isn’t an immense amount of pressure to find Sig not at fault with this investigation. This right here. If you're going to immediately believe the only answer some massive government conspiracy covering up a fatal flaw that somehow not a single member of the entire gun community can find then there really isn't much to discuss. This whole thing has never been about logic or reason, from the start, it's been pure emotion and confirmation bias from people out to get sig and prove that glock should have won the contract. How many lawsuits does Sig need to lose before people will admit that the 320 has a real problem? This could very will be the result of a jr Airman being stupid. But it’s straight up ignorant to ignore the larger context at hand. For people highly invested in the 320, is much easier to bury your head in the sand I guess. I can name numerous instances where people were coerced into false confessions due to aggressive police interview tactics. In those instances, there weren’t numerous GO careers or half billion dollar contracts on the line. I’m not saying that’s the case here, but if you that it couldn’t happen, then you live in a world that no longer exists. |
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Quoted: How many lawsuits does Sig need to lose before people will admit that the 320 has a real problem? This could very will be the result of a jr Airman being stupid. But it’s straight up ignorant to ignore the larger context at hand. For people highly invested in the 320, is much easier to bury your head in the sand I guess. I can name numerous instances where people were coerced into false confessions due to aggressive police interview tactics. In those instances, there weren’t numerous GO careers or half billion dollar contracts on the line. I’m not saying that’s the case here, but if you that it couldn’t happen, then you live in a world that no longer exists. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: While true… Do you really feel like the DoD has gotten less corrupt? Given what could come out if they start pulling the thread with the M18, it’s procurement, the relationship between the DoD and Sig, retired GO’s getting jobs, etc… You’d be nuts to think there isn’t an immense amount of pressure to find Sig not at fault with this investigation. This right here. If you're going to immediately believe the only answer some massive government conspiracy covering up a fatal flaw that somehow not a single member of the entire gun community can find then there really isn't much to discuss. This whole thing has never been about logic or reason, from the start, it's been pure emotion and confirmation bias from people out to get sig and prove that glock should have won the contract. How many lawsuits does Sig need to lose before people will admit that the 320 has a real problem? This could very will be the result of a jr Airman being stupid. But it’s straight up ignorant to ignore the larger context at hand. For people highly invested in the 320, is much easier to bury your head in the sand I guess. I can name numerous instances where people were coerced into false confessions due to aggressive police interview tactics. In those instances, there weren’t numerous GO careers or half billion dollar contracts on the line. I’m not saying that’s the case here, but if you that it couldn’t happen, then you live in a world that no longer exists. Some of these points just become distractions. When we talk about which lawsuits Sig did or did not lose, how much this Airman did or did not screw up, which groups did or did not drop their P320 contracts, we can become hyper-focused on those things, and lose sight on the gun itself. The hard truth is in the mechanical design of the gun. And when we look at the design of the gun, we see major issues. That's the heart of this whole goat rodeo. |