[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Sig M18 might have just killed an Airman (Page 2 of 28)
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Quoted: M18 has a safety? AF is carrying safety off, like they did with the M9? The lack of reporting on rampant M17/18 issues is the last thing that kept me skeptical. From my understanding the sig safety blocks the trigger, not the striker so it would make no difference in a 320 situation. |
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Quoted: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GwfM6dtXcAIIREx?format=jpg&name=large eta - dang I shoulda refreshed page before I replied beat me to it That’s pretty bad. A General officer ordering an admin deadline for all weapons could take a long time to resolve. At my first unit, all our M2A1 50 cals were in that status for years waiting for depot level safety inspections |
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Quoted: The manual safety has nothing to do with the 320 issues. Edit: P226 was always my “dream” gun but I couldn’t afford it in my 20s and now I’ve held off in my 30s due to all these Sig issues. I just have no desire to give them money. I already have a WW1 Colt 1911 .45acp so no real interest in another 1911 either. Maybe I’ll just grab a CZ 75 when I finally decide to splurge on a hammer fire full size. p226 is a totally different gun, and is generally acknowledged by everyone as one of the safest, most reliable pistols ever made. even the SIG haters. if you don't want to give SIG money, buy a used p226. they will hold their value. great pistols. I love my p226 Legion. best trigger on any weapon that I own. |
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Quoted: I bought a used Sig ST in .45.  It shoots spreads. I carried the P320 9mm with safety for over a year, strongside, in a Crossbreed IWB, before the recall. I guess I am lucky to be alive.  I also have an M18 with safety.I just have to wonder if Sig is going to have another recall. |
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reading that letter, looks like Sig is about to finally get kicked in the balls, as should of happened a few years ago |
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Quoted: reading that letter, looks like Sig is about to finally get kicked in the balls, as should of happened a few years ago Yup, they wouldn’t issue a command level admin deadline unless there was substantial evidence of a major safety issue. This isn’t a case of sticking your bugger hook in the trigger guard and ND’ing. It’s a lot bigger than that based on the response. |
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I doubt this will do much to sig as a company, even if true. People have been killed by all sorts of ordinance and arms in the military and companies keep chugging along. Who would have thought the osprey would have survived? That said, sig would probably have done better to figure out what is going on and redesign some parts to eliminate it, or the chance of it. Sig makes some good to great stuff, the p320 has never been either of those |
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Quoted: That’s pretty bad. A General officer ordering an admin deadline for all weapons could take a long time to resolve. At my first unit, all our M2A1 50 cals were in that status for years waiting for depot level safety inspections Quoted: Quoted: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GwfM6dtXcAIIREx?format=jpg&name=large eta - dang I shoulda refreshed page before I replied beat me to it That’s pretty bad. A General officer ordering an admin deadline for all weapons could take a long time to resolve. At my first unit, all our M2A1 50 cals were in that status for years waiting for depot level safety inspections Bussiere is a four star general, and there are over 30,000 personnel under his command. Installations/AFBs include Barksdale in LA, Minot in ND, Dyess in TX, Ellsworth in SD, Whiteman in MO, Offut in NE, Warren in WY, Malmstrom in MT, Kirtland in NM, and Vandenburg in CA. This is a HUGE scope. |
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Quoted: This has nothing to do with trigger pull asThe m18 and m17 safeties fully block trigger movement regardless of the lack of a trigger dingus. The issue is with the striker and/or sear releasing regardless of trigger movement; exacerbating the issue is the difficult in trying to diagnose and replicate it, as well as dogs continued head in the sand response of “there is no problem” Had secondary testing proceeded during the MHS as it was supposed to, it’s possible this could’ve been discovered and fixed before anyone died(this is what, the third person now?) Quoted: Quoted: I have thought for over a decade people were getting out of hand with the short trigger pulls and light break on striker fired guns. Nobody runs around with an M9 let alone a 1911 cocked an on fire. But some after market triggers were that or worse. And on a game gun, well- OK. And I saw a lot of people jump on the 320 in gun games. I think combining a short, light trigger on a striker gun, without a trigger activator, - as general issue to the masses was not a great idea. I did buy an M17 and M18 because I have all the .mil issue guns. I assumed the safety was more than a trigger safety. It did take me by surprise how quick it was adopted and fielded. I think a lot of the 320 firings were negligent discharges. And wrong holsters, etc. But add in the narrow trigger guard, flex in the frame, etc. And yeah- there are some legit accidental discharges. Between being retardedly prone to NDs and having legit ADs… I believe the platforms time for a ride into the sunset has come. And I think I gave it a serious benefit of the doubt and above average objective consideration. This has nothing to do with trigger pull asThe m18 and m17 safeties fully block trigger movement regardless of the lack of a trigger dingus. The issue is with the striker and/or sear releasing regardless of trigger movement; exacerbating the issue is the difficult in trying to diagnose and replicate it, as well as dogs continued head in the sand response of “there is no problem” Had secondary testing proceeded during the MHS as it was supposed to, it’s possible this could’ve been discovered and fixed before anyone died(this is what, the third person now?) Yes, as I stated it ends up being just a trigger block. There are true NDs exacerbated by the 320 trigger basically being like a game 19/2011 and legit ADs with the sear issue. |
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Quoted: I doubt this will do much to sig as a company, even if true. People have been killed by all sorts of ordinance and arms in the military and companies keep chugging along. Who would have thought the osprey would have survived? That said, sig would probably have done better to figure out what is going on and redesign some parts to eliminate it, or the chance of it. Sig makes some good to great stuff, the p320 has never been either of those I don’t think that’s accurate. If it truly comes out that it’s an uncommanded discharge, that will result in all of the services withdrawing it from service temporarily until an engineering change happens. That would finally force sig to acknowledge the issue and develop a solution. If they don’t or it’s impossible, that could result in the m17 and m18 being withdrawn from service. Aircraft have been subject to this sort of thing and engineering changes are implemented that resolve the issue. The military will not issue an item with a known safety issue unless absolutely necessary. Hell, the M9 went through that too with the slide cracking and flying off in the ‘80s. |
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Quoted: FocusTripp IG story says Security Forces Desk Sergeant pulled his M18 still in holster off it's QLS fork, set it on the desk, and it discharged, striking him in the chest. Damn that’s understandable. I’ve personally done the same thing while on duty with the M18 (although kept the holstered pistol in a safe direction). Pretty damning for sig if that’s what happened |
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Quoted: Sig will not survive this pistol as a company. sure they will. once someone credible like a .mil or major le or other .gov armory develops a repeatable field test to demonstrate the design flaw, SIG will almost certainly recall all the affected pistols for rework. cost them a ton of money, but then again they are making a fuckton of money. so their profits go away for a couple of years. they'll issue a couple more new expensive flavors of all their "known good" pistols and the collectors will buy them and that will keep them afloat while they fix their ugly problem child. of note - I can't believe this is a company wide problem, either design or management. too many other very well built pistols coming out of SIG without these problems. specifically the p365 series has had ZERO reports iirc. this has to do with the p320. this is going to turn out to be a problem that only shows up in enough numbers to be trackable as a flaw when you sell 3.6 million pistols. since Glock has sold over 20 million pistols, it's got nothing to do with a polymer frame. there's some very obscure tolerance stacking or some other mechanical aspect that isn't common enough to have thousands of ad/nd happening, yet common enough to generate this kind of attention. once it's finally identified there will be a recall. I have 100% confidence that will happen. and SIG will have massive egg on their faces for making such asses of themselves over "it stops now". that part of it will never get undone in the market. |
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Quoted: agree. all my pistols are da/sa hammer fired and it will stay that way. traded the Glock off years back for a SIG 2340, never looked back. don't care for striker fired. well technically your glock was DAO......... just insteada the trigger cocking the hammer it cocks the striker.... at rest there is not enough compression of the spring for it to hit primer hard enough to fire even if the striker safty were stuck up outa the way or some other fluke caused it to un block the striker etc... |
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1. Milwaukee Police Department (Wisconsin) 2. Dallas Police Department (Texas) 3. Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority (SEPTA) Transit Police (Pennsylvania) 4. U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) 5. Washington State Criminal Justice Training Commission (WSCJTC) 6. Chicago Police Department (Illinois) 7. Oklahoma City Police Department (Oklahoma) 8. Denver Police Department (Colorado) 9. Vancouver Police Department (Washington) 10. Clark County Sheriff’s Office (Washington) 11. Pierce County Sheriff’s Department (Washington) 12. Honesdale Borough Police Department (Pennsylvania) 13. Multiple unspecified agencies in Alabama, Connecticut, Florida, Texas, Washington, Who’s next? |
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Quoted: I doubt this will do much to sig as a company, even if true. People have been killed by all sorts of ordinance and arms in the military and companies keep chugging along. Who would have thought the osprey would have survived? That said, sig would probably have done better to figure out what is going on and redesign some parts to eliminate it, or the chance of it. Sig makes some good to great stuff, the p320 has never been either of those I think someone posted a while back info showing that crash rate of the Osprey is not different from any other aircraft in service. Not sure if the info was legit though. Anyway I wouldnt compare a complex machine like the Osprey to a striker fired handgun  |
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Quoted: I think someone posted a while back info showing that crash rate of the Osprey is not different from any other aircraft in service. Not sure if the info was legit though. Anyway I wouldnt compare a complex machine like the Osprey to a striker fired handgun It's all about perception. |
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M4 in place of M18? Did they get rid of all the M9s? I figured they'd still keep them around in storage at least. The military should really just adopt the CZ P07 or P09. no finer pistol has ever been made 
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Quoted: M18 has a safety? AF is carrying safety off, like they did with the M9? The lack of reporting on rampant M17/18 issues is the last thing that kept me skeptical. |
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Quoted: The manual safety has nothing to do with the 320 issues. Edit: P226 was always my “dream” gun but I couldn’t afford it in my 20s and now I’ve held off in my 30s due to all these Sig issues. I just have no desire to give them money. I already have a WW1 Colt 1911 .45acp so no real interest in another 1911 either. Maybe I’ll just grab a CZ 75 when I finally decide to splurge on a hammer fire full size. Find a quality used one. They get no money. |
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Quoted: M4 in place of M18? Did they get rid of all the M9s? I figured they'd still keep them around in storage at least. The military should really just adopt the CZ P07 or P09. no finer pistol has ever been made |
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Quoted: Post in the reddit link indicates gun was in a Safariland holster with QLS fork. Holster removed with gun intact and placed on surface where it discharged in holster. Airman struck in chest. Wow. First time I've heard of an accident like that, but I haven't followed this as much as some of you. Anyone recall of an incident like that? The ones I'd seen were all while wearing the holster... awful, RIP airman. 
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Quoted: M4 in place of M18? Did they get rid of all the M9s? I figured they'd still keep them around in storage at least. The military should really just adopt the CZ P07 or P09. no finer pistol has ever been made All the M9’s are in service level storage. It would take a while to get them back to operational units. M4 is readily available and is perfectly fine to issue for security forces except in rare cases that a pistol is truly needed. |
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I am down to two striker fired guns, and both are Glock or Glock patterns. I owned and like the Walther style with the protruding striker for an extra layer of safety. All of my SA/DA pistols are chunkier than I’d like for CCW. That said, all striker guns get carried in a holster that should an AD/ND occur, I am loosing butt meat and nothing vital. I am saddened to hear that a US serviceman lost his life, and I hope this is investigated to the very end. Not only should Sig be held responsible, but anyone who allowed procurement to proceed without full testing should lose pensions, and face any consequences that are merited. |
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Quoted: sure they will. once someone credible like a .mil or major le or other .gov armory develops a repeatable field test to demonstrate the design flaw, SIG will almost certainly recall all the affected pistols for rework. cost them a ton of money, but then again they are making a fuckton of money. so their profits go away for a couple of years. they'll issue a couple more new expensive flavors of all their "known good" pistols and the collectors will buy them and that will keep them afloat while they fix their ugly problem child. of note - I can't believe this is a company wide problem, either design or management. too many other very well built pistols coming out of SIG without these problems. specifically the p365 series has had ZERO reports iirc. this has to do with the p320. this is going to turn out to be a problem that only shows up in enough numbers to be trackable as a flaw when you sell 3.6 million pistols. since Glock has sold over 20 million pistols, it's got nothing to do with a polymer frame. there's some very obscure tolerance stacking or some other mechanical aspect that isn't common enough to have thousands of ad/nd happening, yet common enough to generate this kind of attention. once it's finally identified there will be a recall. I have 100% confidence that will happen. and SIG will have massive egg on their faces for making such asses of themselves over "it stops now". that part of it will never get undone in the market. |
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Quoted: All the Air Force M9s have been turned in and replaced by M18s, except for a few M9s in survival kits where the M18 hasn't been certified as a replacement for (air plane things take time). Can you imagine a 9mm Sig launching a round through some multimillion $ piece of hardware on an F-22 or F-35? |
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Quoted: My P320 in .45 shoots like a fucking laser. Tighter than any of them. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/41996/Sig_320_3_JPG-2979131.jpg I carried the P320 9mm with safety for over a year, strongside, in a Crossbreed IWB, before the recall. I guess I am lucky to be alive. I also have an M18 with safety.I just have to wonder if Sig is going to have another recall. Quoted: Quoted: I bought a used Sig ST in .45. It shoots spreads.https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/41996/Sig_320_3_JPG-2979131.jpg I carried the P320 9mm with safety for over a year, strongside, in a Crossbreed IWB, before the recall. I guess I am lucky to be alive. I also have an M18 with safety.I just have to wonder if Sig is going to have another recall. I don’t think anyone has had issues with how they shoot. It’s just the reasonable request that they come without the shake awake feature. |
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Quoted: FocusTripp IG story says Security Forces Desk Sergeant pulled his M18 still in holster off it's QLS fork, set it on the desk, and it discharged, striking him in the chest. I have my doubts about the accuracy of this report. Who takes off their loaded firearm in it's holster and places it on a desk with the muzzle pointed at themself? More than likely it killed another person. FUBAR. edit: failed to quote original post |
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Quoted: A coworker that is in the NG said that is what they have been instructed to do. Quoted: Quoted: Honestly I think if I was in the mil. and forced to carry a SIG unless I was directly in harms way and likely to see combat I might just carry unchambered. A coworker that is in the NG said that is what they have been instructed to do. It (kind of) works for Israeli forces. |
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Quoted: I don’t think that’s accurate. If it truly comes out that it’s an uncommanded discharge, that will result in all of the services withdrawing it from service temporarily until an engineering change happens. That would finally force sig to acknowledge the issue and develop a solution. If they don’t or it’s impossible, that could result in the m17 and m18 being withdrawn from service. Aircraft have been subject to this sort of thing and engineering changes are implemented that resolve the issue. The military will not issue an item with a known safety issue unless absolutely necessary. Hell, the M9 went through that too with the slide cracking and flying off in the ‘80s. Wasn’t the M9 slide issue caused by using extreme pressure ammo and/or guns with super high round counts? |
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Quoted: well technically your glock was DAO......... just insteada the trigger cocking the hammer it cocks the striker.... at rest there is not enough compression of the spring for it to hit primer hard enough to fire even if the striker safty were stuck up outa the way or some other fluke caused it to un block the striker etc... I know that. I don't care for striker fired. I like the external hammer. I vastly prefer a good hammer fired single action trigger over any striker pistol I have shot. and that includes friends X5 Legion, Xten, 365, and standard p320. the first striker fired pistol I thought had a good enough trigger to interest me was the p365 but I haven't bought one yet. I ran across a p224 used and that interests me far more. same manual of arms as my p226 and takes p226 mags. I will likely buy one of those before I buy a p365. it's thicker than a p365 but that's not a problem for me. I just need something with a much smaller grip for edc. |
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Quoted: Post in the reddit link indicates gun was in a Safariland holster with QLS fork. Holster removed with gun intact and placed on surface where it discharged in holster. Airman struck in chest. Curious how reddit could be a credible source for these statements? |
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Quoted: I have my doubts about the accuracy of this report. Who takes off their holster with a loaded firearm off and places it on a desk with the muzzle pointed at themself? More than likely it killed another person. You may be right about the orientation of the pistol but the act of removing the pistol via the qls happens a lot. Personally I’ve done this exact same thing. My last unit we had monthly duty officer obligations that was a sleeping post. When your time to sleep came up, you would remove the holstered pistol and put it in a little vault under the duty desk. Everyone removed the holstered pistol via the qls versus removing the whole leg or belt holster. Nobody would clear the pistol before doing this as it remained holstered the entire time |
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Quoted: Post in the reddit link indicates gun was in a Safariland holster with QLS fork. Holster removed with gun intact and placed on surface where it discharged in holster. Airman struck in chest. Attached File Attached File It's a pretty good system, very modular. Some of my guys do the same when seated in chairs with arms. Looks like I'll have to stop that now. |
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Quoted: Quoted: FocusTripp IG story says Security Forces Desk Sergeant pulled his M18 still in holster off it's QLS fork, set it on the desk, and it discharged, striking him in the chest. I have my doubts about the accuracy of this report. Who takes off their loaded firearm in it's holster and places it on a desk with the muzzle pointed at themself? More than likely it killed another person. FUBAR. edit: failed to quote original post While it certainly breaks the weapon rules to place it pointed at themselves its not an uncommon thing for a desk sgt to do when sitting down to do paperwork for hours I remember Desk Sgts being particular to the blackhawk serpa drop leg because of how easy it was to unclip and place it on the desk, instead of having it digging into their belt for hours not saying its ok, just saying its plausible |
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Quoted:  RIP Defender. End of Tour. You're going home, duty is done.My son is currently AFOSI but carries a Glock 19. Really weird that parts of the US military and lots of foreign militaries just use G19s without a manual safety and don't have these issues that the Sig does. 
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Quoted: I don’t think that’s accurate. If it truly comes out that it’s an uncommanded discharge, that will result in all of the services withdrawing it from service temporarily until an engineering change happens. That would finally force sig to acknowledge the issue and develop a solution. If they don’t or it’s impossible, that could result in the m17 and m18 being withdrawn from service. Aircraft have been subject to this sort of thing and engineering changes are implemented that resolve the issue. The military will not issue an item with a known safety issue unless absolutely necessary. Hell, the M9 went through that too with the slide cracking and flying off in the ‘80s. Quoted: Quoted: I doubt this will do much to sig as a company, even if true. People have been killed by all sorts of ordinance and arms in the military and companies keep chugging along. Who would have thought the osprey would have survived? That said, sig would probably have done better to figure out what is going on and redesign some parts to eliminate it, or the chance of it. Sig makes some good to great stuff, the p320 has never been either of those I don’t think that’s accurate. If it truly comes out that it’s an uncommanded discharge, that will result in all of the services withdrawing it from service temporarily until an engineering change happens. That would finally force sig to acknowledge the issue and develop a solution. If they don’t or it’s impossible, that could result in the m17 and m18 being withdrawn from service. Aircraft have been subject to this sort of thing and engineering changes are implemented that resolve the issue. The military will not issue an item with a known safety issue unless absolutely necessary. Hell, the M9 went through that too with the slide cracking and flying off in the ‘80s. Neither of these are good comparisons. Crashes and fatalities are an expected part of military aircraft development, especially when the new aircraft has some form of performance capability that's groundbreaking. Firearms, on the other hand, are expected not to discharge without a trigger pull, and it doesn't take a feat of engineering to ensure that. The M9 slide failure story is sketchy. The military had 14 failures: 3 in training with the Navy, and 11 in lab testing. Most of these happened at high round counts, and there are reports about the spec of the ammunition involved being wrong. After the fact, Beretta sued the Army for defamation and won. This is different. |