[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Sig M18 might have just killed an Airman (Page 14 of 28)
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Quoted: Yeah, even if the USAF comes out with the decision that the 320 is 100% at fault and unsafe, it is still going to be a problem for the unit Wasnt AF, but was MP and Generally pistol is loaded at clearing barrel and stays in holster unless there is a reason for it to come out and then downloaded at clearing barrel I saw an entire shift get their asses handed to them because while working night shift on a long 96 and just took off their batman belts with pistol still in holster and put them in the armory thinking none of the hirer ups were going to be around |
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Quoted: I have no skin in this game, I don't own a 320, but it's hard to believe there would not be more incidents if the firing pin was that unstable after years of service. I'm going with high probability of user error until proven otherwise. 3 dead people aren't enough. Dozens of less deadly instances aren't enough. Multiple deep dives into the pistol showing multiple serious issues aren't enough. Pathetic. |
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Quoted: I was AF security forces, never met a desk sgt that didn't take their gun belt, or holster if it has a QD system, off while sitting at the desk. Quoted: Quoted: Yeah, even if the USAF comes out with the decision that the 320 is 100% at fault and unsafe, it is still going to be a problem for the unit Wasnt AF, but was MP and Generally pistol is loaded at clearing barrel and stays in holster unless there is a reason for it to come out and then downloaded at clearing barrel I saw an entire shift get their asses handed to them because while working night shift on a long 96 and just took off their batman belts with pistol still in holster and put them in the armory thinking none of the hirer ups were going to be around Fair enough I saw similar with the Desk sgt taking off the belt, and noone said anything about it because it was a seemingly dumb rule But now I think that rule will suddenly be hyper enforced not saying right or wrong, just what I expect the mil to do ETA - I see where I was being confusing, what I meant was "the rule was pistol is loaded at clearing barrel and stays in holster unless there is a reason for it to come out and then downloaded at clearing barrel " |
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Quoted: Nah. SIG will settle with the family, Sig engineers will implement a fix, weapons will be upgraded with the fix, and the AF will continue using the pistol. Reminds me of when we were first issued the M9 when the M1911A1 was phased out. There was an issue where you could grab the slide from the front of the weapon while being pointed at you by another, such as you might see while detaining a prisoner and pull forcefully, and the entire slide would come off in the hand of the detainee, Rendering the pistol useless. Beretta eventually fixed it, and armorer upgraded all the weapons. Quoted: Quoted: SIG is done. Nah. SIG will settle with the family, Sig engineers will implement a fix, weapons will be upgraded with the fix, and the AF will continue using the pistol. Reminds me of when we were first issued the M9 when the M1911A1 was phased out. There was an issue where you could grab the slide from the front of the weapon while being pointed at you by another, such as you might see while detaining a prisoner and pull forcefully, and the entire slide would come off in the hand of the detainee, Rendering the pistol useless. Beretta eventually fixed it, and armorer upgraded all the weapons. Yes I read about that but that is not as serious as the freak'n pistol going off unpredictably and without warning. The 1911 has a safety on the slide so you can shove the pistol into someone and it wont go out of battery. Squeeze the trigger flip safety off and the pistol goes bang even if you have it crammed into someones torso during a fight. That type of safety should be mandatory |
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Quoted: Fair enough I saw similar with the Desk sgt taking off the belt, and noone said anything about it because it was a seemingly dumb rule But now I think that rule will suddenly be hyper enforced not saying right or wrong, just what I expect the mil to do ETA - I see where I was being confusing, what I meant was "the rule was pistol is loaded at clearing barrel and stays in holster unless there is a reason for it to come out and then downloaded at clearing barrel " Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Yeah, even if the USAF comes out with the decision that the 320 is 100% at fault and unsafe, it is still going to be a problem for the unit Wasnt AF, but was MP and Generally pistol is loaded at clearing barrel and stays in holster unless there is a reason for it to come out and then downloaded at clearing barrel I saw an entire shift get their asses handed to them because while working night shift on a long 96 and just took off their batman belts with pistol still in holster and put them in the armory thinking none of the hirer ups were going to be around Fair enough I saw similar with the Desk sgt taking off the belt, and noone said anything about it because it was a seemingly dumb rule But now I think that rule will suddenly be hyper enforced not saying right or wrong, just what I expect the mil to do ETA - I see where I was being confusing, what I meant was "the rule was pistol is loaded at clearing barrel and stays in holster unless there is a reason for it to come out and then downloaded at clearing barrel " |
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Quoted: I dig Sig … love the MCX and MPX family but the P320 is flawed … SIG uses the same quality control and child labor Indian MIM parts on all 3 of those guns. Maybe the P365 has some design improvement to overcome poor tolerances, but since SIG USA won’t acknowledge there’s a problem with the 320, we’ll never know. |
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Quoted: Shit happens? https://static01.nyt.com/images/2020/01/05/us/05xp-marines-1/merlin_165452721_0793c009-1211-4043-992d-6d7816a6e78b-superJumbo.jpg Pretend both of these M9s are M18s. If either discharges, they're drawing blood. The civ LE guy in this picture probably gets grazed. The airman is in trouble. Factor in some pitch/yaw behavior that we routinely see in terminal ballistics, and the femoral artery is absolutely in danger here. And then there's these guys: https://aerocorner.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/US-Army-Military-Police-scaled.jpeg All three sidearms we see here have muzzles pointed at meat here. And these are M17s. The two on the left have their muzzles pointed into their pelvis/thigh area. A holster pop surprise could absolutely have fatal outcomes for these two. This is the reality of life with duty guns. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: How do you tie your shoes if you have a gun on your belt? Bend over to pick something up? Have you ever seen a horizontal shoulder holster? It flags e'rbody. A holstered firearm is presumed safe OR WE WOULDN'T CARRY IT. Shoulder holsters are stupid for exactly that reason. Don't be ridiculous. You don't need to bend over to pick things up. Bend at the knees just like you were taught.  What cult were you raised in?You don't apply that level of care to carrying a device that can end someone's life? No, b/c it's impossible. I lived in a two story house of wooden construction. If I went upstairs, and my holstered CC piece discharged, it could have killed FW_wife if it didn't take out my knee first. The 4 rules of gun safety have never applied to a holstered firearm b/c it becomes impossible to carry. A holstered firearm is presumed safe, which is the entire problem w/ the SIG P320 - it's going off in holsters. Any other gun in a proper holster, and our Airman would still be alive today. That's WHY he had no concern about tossing it on his desk - we have several centuries of practice of pistol carry, and the pistol/holster system is supposed to render the firearm safe while in the holster. Leather strap over the hammer, under the hammer, protection of the trigger guard, etc. You have exactly made my point. He tossed it on the desk because he didn't follow the rules and had been conditioned by not following the rules and not paying attention to the rules for decades. Yeah, the gun is obviously a bad gun. But that's why you follow the rules. Defense in depth -- a bad gun can't kill someone if it's not pointed at them. I don't walk around my house with a gun on, there's basically no need for that, I don't live in some kind of hellscape where home invasions happen all the time. If I need one it's not far away. Saying a holstered firearm is "presumed safe" sets an expectation that the rules don't apply to it, which directly leads to someone throwing it on a table with no regard for where it's pointed and someone dying. It's a dumb point to emphasize. If the airman didn't take the holster off his belt at all, there's still a good chance this same gun discharges and hits his femoral artery killing him anyway. The airman was complacent, and that's not good, but that's not the headline of this incident. I'm still not really sure how a holstered firearm discharges into a femoral artery, no police force I know of carries AIWB. Shit happens? https://static01.nyt.com/images/2020/01/05/us/05xp-marines-1/merlin_165452721_0793c009-1211-4043-992d-6d7816a6e78b-superJumbo.jpg Pretend both of these M9s are M18s. If either discharges, they're drawing blood. The civ LE guy in this picture probably gets grazed. The airman is in trouble. Factor in some pitch/yaw behavior that we routinely see in terminal ballistics, and the femoral artery is absolutely in danger here. And then there's these guys: https://aerocorner.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/US-Army-Military-Police-scaled.jpeg All three sidearms we see here have muzzles pointed at meat here. And these are M17s. The two on the left have their muzzles pointed into their pelvis/thigh area. A holster pop surprise could absolutely have fatal outcomes for these two. This is the reality of life with duty guns. The problem with those holsters is the rotary adjustment portion of the holster. It is a pivot point and allows the barrel to point at the leg by moving in the (x) direction toward the leg and foot. If the holster was flat against the leg or hip the pistol could not rotate and point at the leg or foot. A good tight leather holster (IWB or OWB) will minimize this. The same for a good pocket holster unless you are a big fat-ass with thighs as wide as a home use propane tank. . |
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Quoted: I was AF security forces, never met a desk sgt that didn't take their gun belt, or holster if it has a QD system, off while sitting at the desk. Quoted: Quoted: Yeah, even if the USAF comes out with the decision that the 320 is 100% at fault and unsafe, it is still going to be a problem for the unit Wasnt AF, but was MP and Generally pistol is loaded at clearing barrel and stays in holster unless there is a reason for it to come out and then downloaded at clearing barrel I saw an entire shift get their asses handed to them because while working night shift on a long 96 and just took off their batman belts with pistol still in holster and put them in the armory thinking none of the hirer ups were going to be around Much of that is because the military tends to buy holsters that are intended for use out in the woods somewhere, not as a daily wear policeman-type environment. They also tend to buy physically large pistols, for the same reason - thinking of them as combat weapons, not daily carry in the office, in a vehicle, etc. |
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Quoted: Say just for example that's true, the "do nothing" inspection of the incident weapon and others in the same armory would reveal the problem, and likely trigger an "immediate action TCTO" (time compliance technical order) that would take all the AF weapons out of service for inspection and remediation. That might in turn drive the DOD to order the same action across all the services. Again, this is all jumping out ahead of the OSI investigation, which is almost never a good idea. Quoted: Quoted: Wasn't there a video that demonstrated how if the takedown and reassembly procedures were not followed exactly the gun could discharge? The 320 has a unique procedure that is different from every other pistol. Say just for example that's true, the "do nothing" inspection of the incident weapon and others in the same armory would reveal the problem, and likely trigger an "immediate action TCTO" (time compliance technical order) that would take all the AF weapons out of service for inspection and remediation. That might in turn drive the DOD to order the same action across all the services. Again, this is all jumping out ahead of the OSI investigation, which is almost never a good idea. The problem is, these guns have been investigated and studied to death, and the problem is still somewhat vague. We know about specific issues with the engagement between the striker and striker block, we know force can backfeed from the sear through the trigger bar to the striker block, and we know that changing parts combinations (that are supposed to be interchangeable on a modular gun) produces significant behavior changes in key safety systems. We know that striker block failures are completely reproduceable... in some guns. But we still don't have a good test to produce sear failures. Despite being aware of all of this, and seeing the FBI lab reports, the military has done nothing but release BS statements. Pardon my skepticism, but I don't expect much of a change here unless someone in the USAF feels some pressure to act. |
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Quoted: The problem with those holsters is the rotary adjustment portion of the holster. It is a pivot point and allows the barrel to point at the leg by moving in the (x) direction toward the leg and foot. If the holster was flat against the leg or hip the pistol could not rotate and point at the leg or foot. A good tight leather holster (IWB or OWB) will minimize The same for a good pocket holster unless you are a big fat-ass with thighs as wide as a home use propane tank. . Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: How do you tie your shoes if you have a gun on your belt? Bend over to pick something up? Have you ever seen a horizontal shoulder holster? It flags e'rbody. A holstered firearm is presumed safe OR WE WOULDN'T CARRY IT. Shoulder holsters are stupid for exactly that reason. Don't be ridiculous. You don't need to bend over to pick things up. Bend at the knees just like you were taught. What cult were you raised in?You don't apply that level of care to carrying a device that can end someone's life? No, b/c it's impossible. I lived in a two story house of wooden construction. If I went upstairs, and my holstered CC piece discharged, it could have killed FW_wife if it didn't take out my knee first. The 4 rules of gun safety have never applied to a holstered firearm b/c it becomes impossible to carry. A holstered firearm is presumed safe, which is the entire problem w/ the SIG P320 - it's going off in holsters. Any other gun in a proper holster, and our Airman would still be alive today. That's WHY he had no concern about tossing it on his desk - we have several centuries of practice of pistol carry, and the pistol/holster system is supposed to render the firearm safe while in the holster. Leather strap over the hammer, under the hammer, protection of the trigger guard, etc. You have exactly made my point. He tossed it on the desk because he didn't follow the rules and had been conditioned by not following the rules and not paying attention to the rules for decades. Yeah, the gun is obviously a bad gun. But that's why you follow the rules. Defense in depth -- a bad gun can't kill someone if it's not pointed at them. I don't walk around my house with a gun on, there's basically no need for that, I don't live in some kind of hellscape where home invasions happen all the time. If I need one it's not far away. Saying a holstered firearm is "presumed safe" sets an expectation that the rules don't apply to it, which directly leads to someone throwing it on a table with no regard for where it's pointed and someone dying. It's a dumb point to emphasize. If the airman didn't take the holster off his belt at all, there's still a good chance this same gun discharges and hits his femoral artery killing him anyway. The airman was complacent, and that's not good, but that's not the headline of this incident. I'm still not really sure how a holstered firearm discharges into a femoral artery, no police force I know of carries AIWB. Shit happens? https://static01.nyt.com/images/2020/01/05/us/05xp-marines-1/merlin_165452721_0793c009-1211-4043-992d-6d7816a6e78b-superJumbo.jpg Pretend both of these M9s are M18s. If either discharges, they're drawing blood. The civ LE guy in this picture probably gets grazed. The airman is in trouble. Factor in some pitch/yaw behavior that we routinely see in terminal ballistics, and the femoral artery is absolutely in danger here. And then there's these guys: https://aerocorner.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/US-Army-Military-Police-scaled.jpeg All three sidearms we see here have muzzles pointed at meat here. And these are M17s. The two on the left have their muzzles pointed into their pelvis/thigh area. A holster pop surprise could absolutely have fatal outcomes for these two. This is the reality of life with duty guns. The problem with those holsters is the rotary adjustment portion of the holster. It is a pivot point and allows the barrel to point at the leg by moving in the (x) direction toward the leg and foot. If the holster was flat against the leg or hip the pistol could not rotate and point at the leg or foot. A good tight leather holster (IWB or OWB) will minimize The same for a good pocket holster unless you are a big fat-ass with thighs as wide as a home use propane tank. . Good tight leather holsters either OWB or IWB don't work well with bulky body armor. |
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Quoted: I would like to report that I just got back from picking up some lunch. AIWB the whole time and my dick and balls are still intact. No it was not a P320/M17/M18 It's because we say prayers for the AIWB people and ask that their stupid-ass-decision to carry that way does not negatively impact their life or their families lives. ymmv, fwiw . |
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Quoted: They'll try to make a new rule that you can't remove your holster or gun belt until you've disarmed. But you have to to use the restroom. Kind of surprised no one's had a UD in the shitter yet. Most guns don’t go off sitting in a holster so taking the holster off doesn’t cause an issue. |
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Quoted: 3 dead people aren't enough. Dozens of less deadly instances aren't enough. Multiple deep dives into the pistol showing multiple serious issues aren't enough. Pathetic. Haven't any official reports that state the firearm involved in those deaths were 100% at fault. I'd be willing to read them if you have a link. |
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Quoted: Totally disagree. My PDP Compact is incredibly accurate and there's nothing strange about the recoil impulse at all. Hell, even my wife, who doesn't shoot that much, can pick that gun up and hit bullseyes with no practice. I don't care for the grip shape or else it would still be my carry gun. I carried it for a couple years and it's nowhere near thick enough for it to be a problem carrying. Im someone who finds PDP recoil to be much too abrupt on the Compact and even full size SD. Id like to shoot a comped version before I completely write them off, because I love literally everything else about them. Either they need to be resprung or comped. My Ruger RXM and Shadow Systems MR920 both had softer recoil than either PDP I've owned. |
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Quoted: Most guns don't go off sitting in a holster so taking the holster off doesn't cause an issue. Quoted: Quoted: They'll try to make a new rule that you can't remove your holster or gun belt until you've disarmed. But you have to to use the restroom. Kind of surprised no one's had a UD in the shitter yet. Most guns don't go off sitting in a holster so taking the holster off doesn't cause an issue. |
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Came here to post that. |
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Quoted: Sig has become the new Hi Point Nobody ever ragged on Hi Point because they’re unsafe firearms. By all accounts HP is as safe and reliable as they come. HP get ragged on because they’re cheap, appeal to a certain demographic, and are ugly. I’d rather have a $120 Yeet Cannon that goes bang every time and doesn’t shoot me in the leg all by itself, than a $700 Sig that might kill me in my sleep |
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Quoted: Didn’t Beretta build a US factory for the M9 contract? I think a previous poster said it wins you points in the bid to be more American made than the competition. I think it’s at least a factor in the selection process, but I honestly don’t know the details. No they built the factory in Maryland to get the Maryland state police contract. They then went out from there. @fury_58 |
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Quoted: A loaded firearm with safety off is not and should not be considered safe regardless of if it's in a holster. The gun should not go off by itself, yes we know that. We also know that a firearm with a round in the chamber and safety off should not be pointed at anyone, regardless of if it's in a holster or not. Maybe lower the narcissism a bit and actually think about what you are arguing. Quoted: Quoted: No, saying a holstered firearm is presumed safe is the way it's been for 150 years, your attempts to alter reality notwithstanding. The gun should not go off by itself, yes we know that. We also know that a firearm with a round in the chamber and safety off should not be pointed at anyone, regardless of if it's in a holster or not. Maybe lower the narcissism a bit and actually think about what you are arguing. So all the DAO, DA/SA, and Striker fired pistols around the world are unsafe to handle in a holster now? That's just stupid. |
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Quoted: I was AF security forces, never met a desk sgt that didn't take their gun belt, or holster if it has a QD system, off while sitting at the desk. Quoted: Quoted: Yeah, even if the USAF comes out with the decision that the 320 is 100% at fault and unsafe, it is still going to be a problem for the unit Wasnt AF, but was MP and Generally pistol is loaded at clearing barrel and stays in holster unless there is a reason for it to come out and then downloaded at clearing barrel I saw an entire shift get their asses handed to them because while working night shift on a long 96 and just took off their batman belts with pistol still in holster and put them in the armory thinking none of the hirer ups were going to be around ISD - Ft. Devens 1987. Desk Sgt wore a tanker holster as did our PLT Daddy and the PLT LRD. |
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Quoted: I don't know where you got your information, but it's pure, unadulterated bullshit. Check with Jet Li. Quoted: Quoted: There was an issue where you could grab the slide from the front of the weapon while being pointed at you by another, such as you might see while detaining a prisoner and pull forcefully, and the entire slide would come off in the hand of the detainee, Rendering the pistol useless. Beretta eventually fixed it, and armorer upgraded all the weapons. I don't know where you got your information, but it's pure, unadulterated bullshit. Check with Jet Li. I've done it. You push the slide back out of battery and move the take down lever. It's very easy to do. |
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Quoted: I've done it. You push the slide back out of battery and move the take down lever. It's very easy to do. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: There was an issue where you could grab the slide from the front of the weapon while being pointed at you by another, such as you might see while detaining a prisoner and pull forcefully, and the entire slide would come off in the hand of the detainee, Rendering the pistol useless. Beretta eventually fixed it, and armorer upgraded all the weapons. I don't know where you got your information, but it's pure, unadulterated bullshit. Check with Jet Li. I've done it. You push the slide back out of battery and move the take down lever. It's very easy to do. That’s not what he stated. He said you can just pull the slide off which is retarded, it’d launch off when the slide went forward. Pushing the slide back and actuating the takedown lever is an entirely different thing. glklvr is referencing the movie where that nonsense got started and the takedown lever is clearly rotated where they staged it. |
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Quoted: Then you should never carry a loaded Glock in a holster. Ever. It wasn't that long ago that gun forums were filled with "Glock leg" and "Glock grenade" comments. There was a good period were people were convinced Glocks were horribly unsafe because they didn't have safeties. Fighting that was the whole reason Glock's "Safe Action" marketing exists. Now, no one cares because we've learned how to safely handle striker fired guns and the collective attention has moved on. |
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Quoted: It's because we say prayers for the AIWB people and ask that their stupid-ass-decision to carry that way does not negatively impact their life or their families lives. ymmv, fwiw . Quoted: Quoted: I would like to report that I just got back from picking up some lunch. AIWB the whole time and my dick and balls are still intact. No it was not a P320/M17/M18 It's because we say prayers for the AIWB people and ask that their stupid-ass-decision to carry that way does not negatively impact their life or their families lives. ymmv, fwiw . Who's "we?" You got a fucking hamster in your pocket? |
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Quoted: Was anyone else sitting at the “desk”? Was the choice point the muzzle at himself vs point it at the person across the desk? Did he point the muzzle away, get up and walk around his office/duty area and just happened to be in front of it when it went off? Did go off when set down or after? Was there a delay? Did he set it down and drop it 3 inches and it bounced to point at him? Don't know yet. I wonder if the AF is like many organizations that buy chairs made for people in slacks and who aren't an extra 5-7 inches wide with guns/holsters/radios/etc, thus making it a pain for duty guys to wear gear belts. |
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Quoted: It wasn't that long ago that gun forums were filled with "Glock leg" and "Glock grenade" comments. There was a good period were people were convinced Glocks were horribly unsafe because they didn't have safeties. Fighting that was the whole reason Glock's "Safe Action" marketing exists. Now, no one cares because we've learned how to safely handle striker fired guns and the collective attention has moved on. Quoted: Quoted: Then you should never carry a loaded Glock in a holster. Ever. It wasn't that long ago that gun forums were filled with "Glock leg" and "Glock grenade" comments. There was a good period were people were convinced Glocks were horribly unsafe because they didn't have safeties. Fighting that was the whole reason Glock's "Safe Action" marketing exists. Now, no one cares because we've learned how to safely handle striker fired guns and the collective attention has moved on. Except Glocks never went off in their holsters by themselves. It was not the same. |
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Quoted: That’s not what he stated. He said you can just pull the slide off which is retarded, it’d launch off when the slide went forward. Pushing the slide back and actuating the takedown lever is an entirely different thing. glklvr is referencing the movie where that nonsense got started and the takedown lever is clearly rotated where they staged it. Not the continue the hijack but… In Rush Hour, Jackie Chan disarmed a plainclothes officer of his 92, dropped the magazine, and then stripped it in one hand before tossing it aside. My wife turned to me and asked, “Can you really do it with one hand like that?” I replied, “I don’t know. Let’s find out.” I paused the movie, got a 92 and duplicated it. Middle finger to push the release button, thumb to rotate the lever, easy. |
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Quoted: It wasn't that long ago that gun forums were filled with "Glock leg" and "Glock grenade" comments. There was a good period were people were convinced Glocks were horribly unsafe because they didn't have safeties. Fighting that was the whole reason Glock's "Safe Action" marketing exists. Now, no one cares because we've learned how to safely handle striker fired guns and the collective attention has moved on. Quoted: Quoted: Then you should never carry a loaded Glock in a holster. Ever. It wasn't that long ago that gun forums were filled with "Glock leg" and "Glock grenade" comments. There was a good period were people were convinced Glocks were horribly unsafe because they didn't have safeties. Fighting that was the whole reason Glock's "Safe Action" marketing exists. Now, no one cares because we've learned how to safely handle striker fired guns and the collective attention has moved on. This is the dumbest fucking comparison to the Sig debacle. The Glocks were firing into people's legs because people had horrible trigger habits from shooting heavy DA and DAO pistols. Lots of people were taught by idiots that were telling people to start staging the trigger as soon as the gun started to come out of the holster. Nobody is going to learn their way out of not getting shot in the leg by a P320 that decides to go off in the holster by itself. Be honest, are you at least middle management at Sig USA? |
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Who said anything about the Army? Is this investigation getting combined with an Army one? |
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Quoted: Who said anything about the Army? Is this investigation getting combined with an Army one? Quoted: Who said anything about the Army? Is this investigation getting combined with an Army one? Oops. |
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Quoted: Nobody ever ragged on Hi Point because they’re unsafe firearms. By all accounts HP is as safe and reliable as they come. HP get ragged on because they’re cheap, appeal to a certain demographic, and are ugly. I’d rather have a $120 Yeet Cannon that goes bang every time and doesn’t shoot me in the leg all by itself, than a $700 Sig that might kill me in my sleep Quoted: Quoted: Sig has become the new Hi Point Nobody ever ragged on Hi Point because they’re unsafe firearms. By all accounts HP is as safe and reliable as they come. HP get ragged on because they’re cheap, appeal to a certain demographic, and are ugly. I’d rather have a $120 Yeet Cannon that goes bang every time and doesn’t shoot me in the leg all by itself, than a $700 Sig that might kill me in my sleep This "Yeet Cannon" stuff is freak'n hilarious. . |
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Quoted: Except Glocks never went off in their holsters by themselves. It was not the same. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Then you should never carry a loaded Glock in a holster. Ever. It wasn't that long ago that gun forums were filled with "Glock leg" and "Glock grenade" comments. There was a good period were people were convinced Glocks were horribly unsafe because they didn't have safeties. Fighting that was the whole reason Glock's "Safe Action" marketing exists. Now, no one cares because we've learned how to safely handle striker fired guns and the collective attention has moved on. Except Glocks never went off in their holsters by themselves. It was not the same. Holsters are for sissies!  |
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Quoted: This is the dumbest fucking comparison to the Sig debacle. The Glocks were firing into people's legs because people had horrible trigger habits from shooting heavy DA and DAO pistols. Lots of people were taught by idiots that were telling people to start staging the trigger as soon as the gun started to come out of the holster. Nobody is going to learn their way out of not getting shot in the leg by a P320 that decides to go off in the holster by itself. Be honest, are you at least middle management at Sig USA? Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Then you should never carry a loaded Glock in a holster. Ever. It wasn't that long ago that gun forums were filled with "Glock leg" and "Glock grenade" comments. There was a good period were people were convinced Glocks were horribly unsafe because they didn't have safeties. Fighting that was the whole reason Glock's "Safe Action" marketing exists. Now, no one cares because we've learned how to safely handle striker fired guns and the collective attention has moved on. This is the dumbest fucking comparison to the Sig debacle. The Glocks were firing into people's legs because people had horrible trigger habits from shooting heavy DA and DAO pistols. Lots of people were taught by idiots that were telling people to start staging the trigger as soon as the gun started to come out of the holster. Nobody is going to learn their way out of not getting shot in the leg by a P320 that decides to go off in the holster by itself. Be honest, are you at least middle management at Sig USA? "Glock Leg" is real Do you ever hear "Smith and Wesson Model 66 Leg" ? Nope Because it doesnt happen. Plunger fired pistols are inherently more dangerous especially if they dont have a plunger that is locked by the safety. IMHO the best choice for a civilian side arm is a .357 revolver like the Model 60 or 640. Lady Smith is nice for the girlies. 125 grain 1450 fps approaches 600 ft/lbs with a 4 inch barrel. . |
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Quoted: "Glock Leg" is real ...... IMHO the best choice for a civilian side arm is a .357 revolver like the Model 60 or 640. Lady Smith is nice for the girlies. 125 grain 1450 fps approaches 600 ft/lbs with a 4 inch barrel. . Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Then you should never carry a loaded Glock in a holster. Ever. It wasn't that long ago that gun forums were filled with "Glock leg" and "Glock grenade" comments. There was a good period were people were convinced Glocks were horribly unsafe because they didn't have safeties. Fighting that was the whole reason Glock's "Safe Action" marketing exists. Now, no one cares because we've learned how to safely handle striker fired guns and the collective attention has moved on. This is the dumbest fucking comparison to the Sig debacle. The Glocks were firing into people's legs because people had horrible trigger habits from shooting heavy DA and DAO pistols. Lots of people were taught by idiots that were telling people to start staging the trigger as soon as the gun started to come out of the holster. Nobody is going to learn their way out of not getting shot in the leg by a P320 that decides to go off in the holster by itself. Be honest, are you at least middle management at Sig USA? "Glock Leg" is real ...... IMHO the best choice for a civilian side arm is a .357 revolver like the Model 60 or 640. Lady Smith is nice for the girlies. 125 grain 1450 fps approaches 600 ft/lbs with a 4 inch barrel. . Im not sure if we are allowed to say "ok boomer" any more, but if we were, this would be the time |
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Quoted: The problem with those holsters is the rotary adjustment portion of the holster. It is a pivot point and allows the barrel to point at the leg by moving in the (x) direction toward the leg and foot. If the holster was flat against the leg or hip the pistol could not rotate and point at the leg or foot. A good tight leather holster (IWB or OWB) will minimize this. The same for a good pocket holster unless you are a big fat-ass with thighs as wide as a home use propane tank. . Tell me you don't know how a QLS fork works without telling me you don't know how a QLS fork works. |
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Quoted: Tell me you don't know how a QLS fork works without telling me you don't know how a QLS fork works. Quoted: Quoted: The problem with those holsters is the rotary adjustment portion of the holster. It is a pivot point and allows the barrel to point at the leg by moving in the (x) direction toward the leg and foot. If the holster was flat against the leg or hip the pistol could not rotate and point at the leg or foot. A good tight leather holster (IWB or OWB) will minimize this. The same for a good pocket holster unless you are a big fat-ass with thighs as wide as a home use propane tank. . Tell me you don't know how a QLS fork works without telling me you don't know how a QLS fork works. Please re-read my post and ask questions if you have any. . |
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Quoted: So all the DAO, DA/SA, and Striker fired pistols around the world are unsafe to handle in a holster now? That's just stupid. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: No, saying a holstered firearm is presumed safe is the way it's been for 150 years, your attempts to alter reality notwithstanding. The gun should not go off by itself, yes we know that. We also know that a firearm with a round in the chamber and safety off should not be pointed at anyone, regardless of if it's in a holster or not. Maybe lower the narcissism a bit and actually think about what you are arguing. So all the DAO, DA/SA, and Striker fired pistols around the world are unsafe to handle in a holster now? That's just stupid. Part of what @Veccio said was that a loaded firearm is still a loaded firearm while in a holster if my understanding is correct. That is, basically, saying pay attention to the four rules of firearm safety and specifically rules 1 (treat every gun as loaded) and 2 (always keep a firearm pointed in a safe direction) whether or not it is holstered. Though I was taught that the state of the safety (on or off) or presence (or lack) of a safety does not fundamentally change the fact that a firearm is a lethal weapon and should always be pointed in a safe direction. This has nothing to do with the model of firearm or type of action. |
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Quoted: That’s not what he stated. He said you can just pull the slide off which is retarded, it’d launch off when the slide went forward. Pushing the slide back and actuating the takedown lever is an entirely different thing. glklvr is referencing the movie where that nonsense got started and the takedown lever is clearly rotated where they staged it. Pushing the button in and rotating the lever down can be done either with the slide closed or locked back. |
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Quoted: It wasn't that long ago that gun forums were filled with "Glock leg" and "Glock grenade" comments. There was a good period were people were convinced Glocks were horribly unsafe because they didn't have safeties. Fighting that was the whole reason Glock's "Safe Action" marketing exists. Now, no one cares because we've learned how to safely handle striker fired guns and the collective attention has moved on. Thanks for proving the point that 320 discharges are less likely to be user error. |
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Quoted: "Glock Leg" is real Do you ever hear "Smith and Wesson Model 66 Leg" ? Nope Because it doesnt happen. Plunger fired pistols are inherently more dangerous especially if they dont have a plunger that is locked by the safety. IMHO the best choice for a civilian side arm is a .357 revolver like the Model 60 or 640. Lady Smith is nice for the girlies. 125 grain 1450 fps approaches 600 ft/lbs with a 4 inch barrel. . Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Then you should never carry a loaded Glock in a holster. Ever. It wasn't that long ago that gun forums were filled with "Glock leg" and "Glock grenade" comments. There was a good period were people were convinced Glocks were horribly unsafe because they didn't have safeties. Fighting that was the whole reason Glock's "Safe Action" marketing exists. Now, no one cares because we've learned how to safely handle striker fired guns and the collective attention has moved on. This is the dumbest fucking comparison to the Sig debacle. The Glocks were firing into people's legs because people had horrible trigger habits from shooting heavy DA and DAO pistols. Lots of people were taught by idiots that were telling people to start staging the trigger as soon as the gun started to come out of the holster. Nobody is going to learn their way out of not getting shot in the leg by a P320 that decides to go off in the holster by itself. Be honest, are you at least middle management at Sig USA? "Glock Leg" is real Do you ever hear "Smith and Wesson Model 66 Leg" ? Nope Because it doesnt happen. Plunger fired pistols are inherently more dangerous especially if they dont have a plunger that is locked by the safety. IMHO the best choice for a civilian side arm is a .357 revolver like the Model 60 or 640. Lady Smith is nice for the girlies. 125 grain 1450 fps approaches 600 ft/lbs with a 4 inch barrel. . Tell me about living through the Great Depression, Grandpa! |
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Quoted: "Glock Leg" is real Do you ever hear "Smith and Wesson Model 66 Leg" ? Nope Because it doesnt happen. Plunger fired pistols are inherently more dangerous especially if they dont have a plunger that is locked by the safety. IMHO the best choice for a civilian side arm is a .357 revolver like the Model 60 or 640. Lady Smith is nice for the girlies. 125 grain 1450 fps approaches 600 ft/lbs with a 4 inch barrel. . Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Then you should never carry a loaded Glock in a holster. Ever. It wasn't that long ago that gun forums were filled with "Glock leg" and "Glock grenade" comments. There was a good period were people were convinced Glocks were horribly unsafe because they didn't have safeties. Fighting that was the whole reason Glock's "Safe Action" marketing exists. Now, no one cares because we've learned how to safely handle striker fired guns and the collective attention has moved on. This is the dumbest fucking comparison to the Sig debacle. The Glocks were firing into people's legs because people had horrible trigger habits from shooting heavy DA and DAO pistols. Lots of people were taught by idiots that were telling people to start staging the trigger as soon as the gun started to come out of the holster. Nobody is going to learn their way out of not getting shot in the leg by a P320 that decides to go off in the holster by itself. Be honest, are you at least middle management at Sig USA? "Glock Leg" is real Do you ever hear "Smith and Wesson Model 66 Leg" ? Nope Because it doesnt happen. Plunger fired pistols are inherently more dangerous especially if they dont have a plunger that is locked by the safety. IMHO the best choice for a civilian side arm is a .357 revolver like the Model 60 or 640. Lady Smith is nice for the girlies. 125 grain 1450 fps approaches 600 ft/lbs with a 4 inch barrel. . Of course "Glock Leg" is real, I never said it wasn't and we even know why it happens. I said it was a stupid comparison and you're confirming that assertion. As to the other stuff in your post, I get it, you like posting absurd, stupid shit and its a hard habit for you to break. |