[ARCHIVED THREAD] - SOLGW vs DD/G$/etc. (Page 4 of 4)
|
Quoted: I don't know what the contract details are for, but if its relatively small, do you think some of the big players (by name or volume) don't put as much effort into it as they may another contract? Like if it was for say 100 rifles (these numbers are just for discussion purposes) do you think KAC is thinking we could sell 100 rifles on the commercial market if we wanted to, we'll just throw something out there and if it stick great if not no biggie. Whereas a smaller company is really invested 100% to try and win? Contracting is more than just the X number of rifles. It's also spare parts (which i've heard can be lucrative in this business). And just like any supplier, you want to do a good job so you can have repeat business for other material requirements in the near term. In procurement, relationships are everything. |
|
Quoted: The last thing I want in a rifle like an AR is “proprietary” or “unique”. I want to be able to swap out parts with whatever I want. The standardization of the platform and wide availability of essentially drop in parts is a big component of the greatness of the AR. If I want proprietary I’m not getting an AR. Other than the receiver and handguard, the rest of the mk1 is standard. Kinda shocked they didn’t go with an integral gas key BCG, eliminating the key as a failure point. And the proprietary Nature of the billet upper and handguard is what gives it an advantage over the URGI, and maybe the super duty, I’d need to see deflection tests to confirm that. Nobody wants to publish that shit, especially after the bendy bill video, lol. On principle, the drivelock rail should be pretty damn rigid, moreso with the steel dowels. But I don’t know if it’s actually better than, say, a centurion C4, ALG, Kac URX4, or Larue rail. Those are all damn hard to beat. ETA: Looking over the specs, aside from the additional steel pin, barrel selection, laser texturing, larger bolt catch, and lack of Ambi bolt release/steel QD cups, I’m not 100% sure what else separates the Mk1 from the broadsword/billet L89 series. Those are ~$2700 with flat cerakote, or $2850 with camo cerakote. So there’s $350 unaccounted for, roughly speaking. Part of that’s in the laser stippling and whatever super secret coatings they used, along with the “selected by DEVGRU!” tax. But omitting the rail QD’s and ambi controls on the lower ought to recoup some of that. Catching the anodized version on sale is the only way it makes sense to buy over anything else, IMO. |
|
Genuine question for the "but they only assemble" crowd (which isn't true, but for the sake of argument): why does that matter? People constantly say it about post-CZ Colt too (where it also isn't true) and I don't get it. It's not like Colt suddenly lost the TDP when they were bought out. If all the parts bought from an outside vendor are properly QC'd and held to the same accuracy/durability/gauging/etc. standards, why do you care whether the part was made in Hartford or in some OEM shop elsewhere? |
| I just picked up a Novesk 13.7” Infidel complete barreled upper for what amounted to $350 locally, I mean deals like that are pretty rare but I find deals like that around once every couple months so they are out there. I would just keep an eye out locally and would be happy with any of the mentioned brands as they are all quality. |
|
Quoted: Genuine question for the "but they only assemble" crowd (which isn't true, but for the sake of argument): why does that matter? People constantly say it about post-CZ Colt too (where it also isn't true) and I don't get it. It's not like Colt suddenly lost the TDP when they were bought out. If all the parts bought from an outside vendor are properly QC'd and held to the same accuracy/durability/gauging/etc. standards, why do you care whether the part was made in Hartford or in some OEM shop elsewhere? What kind of metrology lab does soglol have? |
|
Only my opinion; Economy of scale, and economy of time both are a thing. Look at the size of the shop, how long they've been around, how long ago they purchased manufacturing equipment, and so on. Of the boutique, smaller brands a company like Geiselle has been around a while. They paid '80s and '90s prices for equipment, the return on investment has been happening for years. I truly don't know; how long has SOLGW been around? They haven't been around too long, bet they are charging modern prices to pay off moden equipment. Younger, smaller companies are probably still operating to pay back equipment. Is the guy that owns sons of Liberty gun works living like a modern, internet sensation, social media star baller? He may be paying himself or his team accordingly. That said, if you can generate enough buzz around your name to charge the highest price ever... Why wouldn't you? That's capitalism. Laissez-faire, and all that. By no means, do I understand what makes a $3k rifle different than a $500 rifle. If they're made to at the TDP or above, I don't know. I've never had the luxury of buying a new, complete rifle. I'm a working dad of two, and as long as I have at least one basic functioning carbine for all the reasons you want one, I'm good. I have used Colt 6920 uppers on palmetto lowers I put together. That being said, if I was able to buy a $1,500 complete rifle, it would be a G, I'm in PA, I'll support a Pennsylvania company. But I never have, because I can do a lot with $1,500 in the EE. |
|
Quoted: Contracting is more than just the X number of rifles. It's also spare parts (which i've heard can be lucrative in this business). And just like any supplier, you want to do a good job so you can have repeat business for other material requirements in the near term. In procurement, relationships are everything. Supplying parts, and being a reputable company after the contract is secured vs putting a monumental effort to secure the contract are not the same. |
|
Their lowers are not transformative. BO makes the best Ambi safety IMO. But that is hardly revolutionary. It's the uppers that move the needle. And more for their .mil customers than civ as .mil get ARMAD parts (also known as 32CrMoV12-10). They also have a monolithic-esque rail with tabs that fit the receiver and hand guard for extra durability. The FA is out of the way of the CH. The laser engraving on the HG add grip and heat benefits. These are just top-of-mind features. |
|
Quoted: Just from handling a few, I rank them to be about as good as a BCM. Good quality usually that will serve 99% of people their entire life but not top tier. I did SBR one of their lowers and it’s nice. Weren't they the only rifle with zero failures for the SOCOM evals? |
|
Quoted: The last thing I want in a rifle like an AR is “proprietary” or “unique”. I want to be able to swap out parts with whatever I want. The standardization of the platform and wide availability of essentially drop in parts is a big component of the greatness of the AR. If I want proprietary I’m not getting an AR. Quoted: Quoted: Companies can charge what they want. Complaining about the price won't usually get you anywhere. Value adds from SOLGW? Billet upper, lower, and handguard. Laser-engraved rail. Unique controls. Proprietary barrel. It sounds like they didn't just pull a number out of the air, but are pricing the MK1 relative to their development investments. The last thing I want in a rifle like an AR is “proprietary” or “unique”. I want to be able to swap out parts with whatever I want. The standardization of the platform and wide availability of essentially drop in parts is a big component of the greatness of the AR. If I want proprietary I’m not getting an AR. Have you heard about G$ bolt carrier groups, lol. |
|
Quoted: Quoted: Am I the only one who think G$ is overrated? Here’s two ten shot groups shot today from a 14.5” chrome lined URGI. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/128204/IMG_6330_jpeg-3664882.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/128204/IMG_6331_jpeg-3664883.JPG Pretty typical for both this rifle and my other G$. I have other rifles that shoot far better including but not limited to a stainless 1:9 Colt, a chrome lined Armalite and a nitrided Ballistic Advantage. Hell my 350 Legend Aero shoots better with hunting ammo! My 12.5 G pistol with 4.5 MK4 HD at 100 http://i.imgur.com/1NKgurr.jpg At the $1400-1800 price point I’d expect better. |
|
Quoted: Weren't they the only rifle with zero failures for the SOCOM evals? Quoted: Quoted: Just from handling a few, I rank them to be about as good as a BCM. Good quality usually that will serve 99% of people their entire life but not top tier. I did SBR one of their lowers and it’s nice. Weren't they the only rifle with zero failures for the SOCOM evals? That’s the claim, but unless the testing parameters and results are posted, I’d take that with a grain of salt. Did have an interesting conversation when I asked around, a LGS ordered a few Mk1’s, small place, recently became a dealer for them. SOLGW didn’t make them do the full $100k buy-in to become a dealer, and runs custom engraved barrels on all the rifles for these guys so they’re MD-legal. Say what you will, but that’s pretty decent of ‘em. |
|
Quoted: It's also easy for certain requirements to be made that only one company could meet. The armad is going to outlast g and dd barrels. With the titanium and how much they milled off the handguard I'm sure there was a weight requirement too. Those 2 things could have disqualified g and dd right there ????? True, and government bureaucrats are undefeated at coming up with requirements that are unnecessary, and sometimes counterproductive. See the NGSW, MHS, or pretty much every other government program. |
|
Quoted: True, and government bureaucrats are undefeated at coming up with requirements that are unnecessary, and sometimes counterproductive. See the NGSW, MHS, or pretty much every other government program. Quoted: Quoted: It's also easy for certain requirements to be made that only one company could meet. The armad is going to outlast g and dd barrels. With the titanium and how much they milled off the handguard I'm sure there was a weight requirement too. Those 2 things could have disqualified g and dd right there ????? True, and government bureaucrats are undefeated at coming up with requirements that are unnecessary, and sometimes counterproductive. See the NGSW, MHS, or pretty much every other government program. I would say that JSOC and SOCOM are much better about that than big army… But looking at the Mk23 and SCAR programs, even SF aren’t immune to design by committee, good idea fairy type idiocy. Could be the idea was just “Mk18, but lighter, with better parts life.” If that was the idea, then the 11.5” CAR with an armad barrel and aermet bolt fits the bill as well as anything else being tested. Could be the idea is to use this with newer high pressure cartridges like the nas3, getting M4 or even 16” velocities out of an 11.5” gun, letting them use one compact, lightweight carbine with an LPVO for most use cases. Makes sense from both a practical aspect and a logistical one, since the Mk1 is still backwards compatible with standard M4 components. |
|
Quoted: I would say that JSOC and SOCOM are much better about that than big army… But looking at the Mk23 and SCAR programs, even SF aren’t immune to design by committee, good idea fairy type idiocy. Could be the idea was just “Mk18, but lighter, with better parts life.” If that was the idea, then the 11.5” CAR with an armad barrel and aermet bolt fits the bill as well as anything else being tested. Could be the idea is to use this with newer high pressure cartridges like the nas3, getting M4 or even 16” velocities out of an 11.5” gun, letting them use one compact, lightweight carbine with an LPVO for most use cases. Makes sense from both a practical aspect and a logistical one, since the Mk1 is still backwards compatible with standard M4 components. JSOC is a whole different animal than SOCOM. The selection process is not the same. ETA. I highly recommend people to watch the podcast that I posted if you're interested in that. |
|
Quoted: JSOC is a whole different animal than SOCOM. The selection process is not the same. ETA. I highly recommend people to watch the podcast that I posted if you're interested in that. Press release references it as a SOCOM contract, granted that could be a mixup between the two, or that JSOC falls under SOCOM. Or intentional obfuscation as to who these are going to. It’d be real interesting if it ends up being SOCOM’s baby, with the overarching intent of replacing all current issue Mk18, CQBR, SURG, URGI, and other various and sundry M4 carbines with a single rifle. |
|
Quoted: Genuine question for the "but they only assemble" crowd (which isn't true, but for the sake of argument): why does that matter? People constantly say it about post-CZ Colt too (where it also isn't true) and I don't get it. It's not like Colt suddenly lost the TDP when they were bought out. If all the parts bought from an outside vendor are properly QC'd and held to the same accuracy/durability/gauging/etc. standards, why do you care whether the part was made in Hartford or in some OEM shop elsewhere? The owners attitude, their advertising, and the way their customer base worships their products. That’s what makes it an issue to me. If they made everything in house, I’d at least understand some of it. But they’re assembling other manufacturers parts, no different than some guy in his garage that ordered decent quality parts. They may take pride in making sure the person assembling rifles is thoroughly trained and do quality control checks along the way, but it’s still not different parts, and you’re being charged out the ass for it. I could care less if they can CNC cut out a rail or basic accessories. The parts that matter are the barrel, BCG, and LPK parts. I don’t believe they make any of those, like a lot of other “AR manufacturers” out there. |
|
Quoted: I don't know what the contract details are for, but if its relatively small, do you think some of the big players (by name or volume) don't put as much effort into it as they may another contract? Like if it was for say 100 rifles (these numbers are just for discussion purposes) do you think KAC is thinking we could sell 100 rifles on the commercial market if we wanted to, we'll just throw something out there and if it stick great if not no biggie. Whereas a smaller company is really invested 100% to try and win? Having dealt with competitive military contracts for about a decade now, very likely. There is an insane amount of pre-work for solicitations (bid and proposal, meetings, reports, demos, etc etc) so it’s not just roll up on T&E day and present to the class. A smaller firm might have a larger appetite for this because of the doors it opens whereas a larger firm may just phone it in based on potential revenue streams relative to their current work log. |
|
Quoted: Yeahs but are BCMs $2600? Quoted: Quoted: Just from handling a few, I rank them to be about as good as a BCM. Good quality usually that will serve 99% of people their entire life but not top tier. I did SBR one of their lowers and it’s nice. Yeahs but are BCMs $2600? Mine was less than $900, but that was a while ago. |
|
Quoted: Press release references it as a SOCOM contract, granted that could be a mixup between the two, or that JSOC falls under SOCOM. Or intentional obfuscation as to who these are going to. It’d be real interesting if it ends up being SOCOM’s baby, with the overarching intent of replacing all current issue Mk18, CQBR, SURG, URGI, and other various and sundry M4 carbines with a single rifle. No company releases contracts that go to JSOC, that is why they say "SOCOM". SIG doesn't advertise the exact configuration of the MCX LT that CAG replaced the 416 with or the P320 package that DEV has. There are NDA's that are signed. ETA. These are not replacing anything issued at SOCOM. These are going to DEVGRU to replace their Noveske's. |
|
Quoted: That’s the claim, but unless the testing parameters and results are posted, I’d take that with a grain of salt. Did have an interesting conversation when I asked around, a LGS ordered a few Mk1’s, small place, recently became a dealer for them. SOLGW didn’t make them do the full $100k buy-in to become a dealer, and runs custom engraved barrels on all the rifles for these guys so they’re MD-legal. Say what you will, but that’s pretty decent of ‘em. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Just from handling a few, I rank them to be about as good as a BCM. Good quality usually that will serve 99% of people their entire life but not top tier. I did SBR one of their lowers and it’s nice. Weren't they the only rifle with zero failures for the SOCOM evals? That’s the claim, but unless the testing parameters and results are posted, I’d take that with a grain of salt. Did have an interesting conversation when I asked around, a LGS ordered a few Mk1’s, small place, recently became a dealer for them. SOLGW didn’t make them do the full $100k buy-in to become a dealer, and runs custom engraved barrels on all the rifles for these guys so they’re MD-legal. Say what you will, but that’s pretty decent of ‘em. Well, they won the contract |
|
Quoted: Other than the receiver and handguard, the rest of the mk1 is standard. Kinda shocked they didn’t go with an integral gas key BCG, eliminating the key as a failure point. And the proprietary Nature of the billet upper and handguard is what gives it an advantage over the URGI, and maybe the super duty, I’d need to see deflection tests to confirm that. Nobody wants to publish that shit, especially after the bendy bill video, lol. On principle, the drivelock rail should be pretty damn rigid, moreso with the steel dowels. But I don’t know if it’s actually better than, say, a centurion C4, ALG, Kac URX4, or Larue rail. Those are all damn hard to beat. ETA: Looking over the specs, aside from the additional steel pin, barrel selection, laser texturing, larger bolt catch, and lack of Ambi bolt release/steel QD cups, I’m not 100% sure what else separates the Mk1 from the broadsword/billet L89 series. Those are ~$2700 with flat cerakote, or $2850 with camo cerakote. So there’s $350 unaccounted for, roughly speaking. Part of that’s in the laser stippling and whatever super secret coatings they used, along with the “selected by DEVGRU!” tax. But omitting the rail QD’s and ambi controls on the lower ought to recoup some of that. Catching the anodized version on sale is the only way it makes sense to buy over anything else, IMO. The barrel could easily make up that 350 difference vs their previous cheap nitride stuff. |
|
Quoted: The owners attitude, their advertising, and the way their customer base worships their products. That’s what makes it an issue to me. If they made everything in house, I’d at least understand some of it. But they’re assembling other manufacturers parts, no different than some guy in his garage that ordered decent quality parts. They may take pride in making sure the person assembling rifles is thoroughly trained and do quality control checks along the way, but it’s still not different parts, and you’re being charged out the ass for it. I could care less if they can CNC cut out a rail or basic accessories. The parts that matter are the barrel, BCG, and LPK parts. I don’t believe they make any of those, like a lot of other “AR manufacturers” out there. What do you define as another manufacturer's parts? If SOLGW designs, specs and QCs their own barrels, BCGs and handguards but some third party physically makes the parts, are those the same parts as a company that goes to the same OEM but has blown out gas ports, looser BCG tolerances, worse handguard lockup, etc? Sure you can buy the same parts and build your own with all the proper torque specs and procedures, but then you're still relying on the above processes. Home-built vs. factory is a different discussion but the same principle still applies. I would expect the same quality from a Geissele or SOLGW BCG whether or not it's made in San Antonio or North Wales. And I'm not trying to persuade anyone to buy a particular brand or say that you can't build a really good rifle at home. |
|
After weighing out alot of factors and looking at the cost / benefit analysis of what BCM, Geissele, Colts, DD, PSA Saber, SOLGW, and a few others my local LE Agency went with suppressed 13.7" SOLGW guns and have been happy with them. For those that are saying that better branding is needed, I would not be suprised to hear that something like that is in the works. Something akin to the rebranding that STI went through when they became Staccato and took off in the LE/personal defense sector. |
|
SOLGW has the only A5 buffer kit that I could find for one of my builds. It is a neat option for certain applications. For those that don't know, the A5 buffer was developed by VLTOR (I think) for the USMC but never adopted. It is a nine position buffer tube that is longer than the standard carbine buffer and allows you to extend your stuck out longer than a fixed A2 stock. It also allows a rifle type buffer. It is supposed to make recoil smoother as well as giving you more options for length of pull. I installed mine on a build using a BA Hanson profile 17.7" barrel. It's a pretty slick build. |
|
Quoted: SOLGW has the only A5 buffer kit that I could find for one of my builds. It is a neat option for certain applications. For those that don't know, the A5 buffer was developed by VLTOR (I think) for the USMC but never adopted. It is a nine position buffer tube that is longer than the standard carbine buffer and allows you to extend your stuck out longer than a fixed A2 stock. It also allows a rifle type buffer. It is supposed to make recoil smoother as well as giving you more options for length of pull. I installed mine on a build using a BA Hanson profile 17.7" barrel. It's a pretty slick build. A5 buffers are also the perfect length for blowback ARs with carbine length tubes so you don't need a spacer. They make stainless body ones that are the right weight too |
|
Quoted: A5 buffers are also the perfect length for blowback ARs with carbine length tubes so you don't need a spacer. They make stainless body ones that are the right weight too Quoted: Quoted: SOLGW has the only A5 buffer kit that I could find for one of my builds. It is a neat option for certain applications. For those that don't know, the A5 buffer was developed by VLTOR (I think) for the USMC but never adopted. It is a nine position buffer tube that is longer than the standard carbine buffer and allows you to extend your stuck out longer than a fixed A2 stock. It also allows a rifle type buffer. It is supposed to make recoil smoother as well as giving you more options for length of pull. I installed mine on a build using a BA Hanson profile 17.7" barrel. It's a pretty slick build. A5 buffers are also the perfect length for blowback ARs with carbine length tubes so you don't need a spacer. They make stainless body ones that are the right weight too Just saw a video about the USMC’s testing for a potential M16A5 before making the M4 standard issue, never knew the A5 kits made it onto line unit guns. It makes sense to me for returning to the original spring and buffer weight of the M16, but the reasoning I read was something about the longer spring being more consistent from one to the next, and lasting a bit longer. I do like the longer length of pull, the more shooting I’ve done, the more I like a longer stock. Usually have a sopmod or SLS two clicks in from max with a K2, feels like I can lock the rifle into my shoulder more comfortably with just my firing hand. Been meaning to order a bunch of different grips to see if I can find something that works just as well with the stock shortened, stubby T-rex arms with disproportionately long forearms kinda sucks. |
|
Quoted: After weighing out alot of factors and looking at the cost / benefit analysis of what BCM, Geissele, Colts, DD, PSA Saber, SOLGW, and a few others my local LE Agency went with suppressed 13.7" SOLGW guns and have been happy with them. For those that are saying that better branding is needed, I would not be suprised to hear that something like that is in the works. Something akin to the rebranding that STI went through when they became Staccato and took off in the LE/personal defense sector. Yeah. SOLGW sold rifles to the Washington State Patrol and gleefully laser engraved the WSP logo on the side. When I asked them in person why they blatantly wouldn’t send parts to Washington but were happy to arm the Washington LEOs the manager at SOLGW didn’t have an answer other than staring at the floor. |
|
Quoted: Yeah. SOLGW sold rifles to the Washington State Patrol and gleefully laser engraved the WSP logo on the side. When I asked them in person why they blatantly wouldn’t send parts to Washington but were happy to arm the Washington LEOs the manager at SOLGW didn’t have an answer other than staring at the floor. I feel sorry for yall in the PNW, beautiful country. Damn shame what it has came to. |
|
Idk. Ive owned damn near every brand. Theres some turds but most everything else works. I like LMT stuff. Have builts tons of stuff with bcm. Had no problems with solgw But I currently have an upper pieced together for 300 bucks with a bcm upper and chrome lined barrel that would keep up with them. Twenty years ago there was only a handful of companies making a decent AR. Just isnt the case anymore. |