[ARCHIVED THREAD] - SIG “ The P320. It ends today.” (Page 88 of 142)
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Quoted: In on 88 When did Bruce Grey get bought, I know he's a Sig guy through and through (he worked on one of my 226s years ago) but DAMN. You would think he would be smart enough to realize that SIG is tapdancing on their dick. He's always been bought. Ever since the drop safety fiasco. |
 ICE and Chicago PD dropped the Sig P320 |
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Really seems like things are accelerating in the law enforcement and professional training worlds now. At some point Big Army and its other DoD brethren are going to be forced to respond. They may have some generals bought off with their influence but the amount of bad publicity any sort of congressional hearing would entail would be devastating. Imagine a senator playing one of those videos in front of the hearing and asking Cohen to defend it. There’s no coming out of that not smelling like shit. When it hits that point, if Sig has a solution, I could see the DoD demanding all defective units reworked to a theoretical A1 standard and maybe adopt an A2 as a factory fresh model. M17A1 reworked/fixed, M17A2 new build. They’d pay for the factory fresh ones but I imagine Sig would be on the hook for the repair effort if it is found defective as delivered. It would be epic corruption if they convinced them to scrap the entire original versions and pay for reissuing a fixed model. They’d make movies for years out of that. I don’t know if there’s any sort of precedent for returning all the defective guns, demanding a return of all monies paid to that point, and voiding the contract for failure to perform, then recompeting or issuing a new contract to the second place contender. In the penny pinching to reuse as much of the P250 tooling as possible for the P320, Sig may have ultimately cost themselves far more than if they had just gone with a greensheet design. |
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Quoted: He's always been bought. Ever since the drop safety fiasco. Quoted: Quoted: In on 88 When did Bruce Grey get bought, I know he's a Sig guy through and through (he worked on one of my 226s years ago) but DAMN. You would think he would be smart enough to realize that SIG is tapdancing on their dick. He's always been bought. Ever since the drop safety fiasco. Correct. @anesvick This was Bruce Gray's response in 2017 when reports of the 320 not being drop safe began to appear. Attached File Attached File Attached File |
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Quoted: Bruce Gray debunks FBI's report, so I guess it ends today. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/33962/Screenshot_20250709-202415-112_png-3583595.JPG If that is his actual response then he is an idiot 
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Quoted: If that is his actual response then he is an idiot Quoted: Quoted: Bruce Gray debunks FBI's report, so I guess it ends today. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/33962/Screenshot_20250709-202415-112_png-3583595.JPG If that is his actual response then he is an idiot He was wrong about the P320 being drop safe and he’s wrong about this. |
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Quoted: He was wrong about the P320 being drop safe and he’s wrong about this. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Bruce Gray debunks FBI's report, so I guess it ends today. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/33962/Screenshot_20250709-202415-112_png-3583595.JPG If that is his actual response then he is an idiot He was wrong about the P320 being drop safe and he’s wrong about this. Wonder when he will start getting sued since he helped with the POS design? |
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Quoted: While it is overly complex, I'd place money on the guys at BRF having a better grasp on it than he does. I can just about guarantee that every government entity is going to hold the FBI's ballistics nerds to be more authoritative than Mr. Gray. He's not helped himself with his continual dismissal of problems that stubbornly persist and then equivocating once it's clear that his first pronouncements were erroneous. It's like Sam Harris arguing he was right if COVID had gone differently. |
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Quoted: In on 88 When did Bruce Grey get bought, I know he's a Sig guy through and through (he worked on one of my 226s years ago) but DAMN. You would think he would be smart enough to realize that SIG is tapdancing on their dick. Bruce has always been like this. He's right. And he's always right. Even when you're right, you're right for the wrong reasons therefore not right. |
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Quoted: I can just about guarantee that every government entity is going to hold the FBI's ballistics nerds to be more authoritative than Mr. Gray. He's not helped himself with his continual dismissal of problems that stubbornly persist and then equivocating once it's clear that his first pronouncements were erroneous. It's like Sam Harris arguing he was right if COVID had gone differently. Quoted: Quoted: While it is overly complex, I'd place money on the guys at BRF having a better grasp on it than he does. I can just about guarantee that every government entity is going to hold the FBI's ballistics nerds to be more authoritative than Mr. Gray. He's not helped himself with his continual dismissal of problems that stubbornly persist and then equivocating once it's clear that his first pronouncements were erroneous. It's like Sam Harris arguing he was right if COVID had gone differently. Even if Bruce is correct (for sake of argument) He has vested stake in the gun And there's 'it's the fucking FBI' While most arfcom hates them, the countries police orgs use them as gospel for anything |
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his out here is where he says proper factory spec gun and parts. obviously those guns work properly. when something isn't perfectly in spec or multiple things are on the edges of spec enough for tolerance stacking to occur bad things seem to happen. while he may be technically correct for a perfect gun with perfect parts, real world seems to have way to many examples of actual failures. |
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Quoted: I read that as Sig modified the triggers Quoted: Quoted: Critical parts for your entire agency are out of spec, so we're just going to grind 'em in the shop? I read that as Sig modified the triggers Yes. But it's still bonkers. Shipping a batch of guns for a LE contract and then grinding parts to fit on site in every gun after delivery due to functional issues is dumbfounding. |
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Quoted: Yes. But it's still bonkers. Shipping a batch of guns for a LE contract and then grinding parts to fit on site in every gun after delivery due to functional issues is dumbfounding. It's not the first time they've done that. Making duff parts and then trying to hand-fit them on site for a contract has been done before even in the earliest Cohen days at Sig. |
This morning vids, haven't watched yet: FBI Investigates the P320  BREAKING: More Problems For SIG - Homeland Security Switches From SIG P320 To GLOCK Immediately  ICE Agents Drop the Sig P320 - “It Ends Today” |
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Quoted: The worst part about this MSP situation is that even after the completion of that report is that the agency apparently decided to continue their transition to the 320 if what Stoeger said is true. Hold up, after reading the report they are staying with the 320? 
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Quoted: I've heard that a couple of times, is there more information about those threatening letters? Sounds very much in line with their recent history, would love to see one TBH Quoted: Quoted: Did sig send a threatening letter? I've heard that a couple of times, is there more information about those threatening letters? Sounds very much in line with their recent history, would love to see one TBH I heard it on a stoeger vid as a thing uncofirmed but said to be true. |
 Sig dumped again Apparently SIG reps are lying about Achilles Heel Tactical and saying that they reversed their decision to ban P320s from their range, which Achilles Heel Tactical responded and said was false/fake news and the P320 is still banned. (They're the guys from the video of the "is that a fucking 320?" after the discharge on the range) |
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Quoted:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5R7E8Bup88IApparently SIG reps are lying about Achilles Heel Tactical and saying that they reversed their decision to ban P320s from their range, which Achilles Heel Tactical responded and said was false/fake news and the P320 is still banned. (They're the guys from the video of the "is that a fucking 320?" after the discharge on the range) I know for a fact, 320's were in a AHT class 2-3 weeks ago. |
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Quoted: Bruce Gray debunks FBI's report, so I guess it ends today. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/33962/Screenshot_20250709-202415-112_png-3583595.JPG Well my days of not taking him seriously are certainly coming to a middle. |
 The Sig P320 simps are out in force… |
 It Happened AGAIN with a Sig P320 || This Time at a School VSO speculates this might be a pre-drop safety 320. |
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I wonder how much changing the striker, sear, and striker safety lock over to billet would cost.  Kharn |
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Quoted: I wonder how much changing the striker, sear, and striker safety lock over to billet would cost. Kharn Quoted: I wonder how much changing the striker, sear, and striker safety lock over to billet would cost. Kharn |
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Quoted: They'd need to tighten up QC on the FCU itself too. The rails being inconsistent has been a problem since day one. Quoted: Quoted: I wonder how much changing the striker, sear, and striker safety lock over to billet would cost. Kharn They'd need to tighten up QC on the FCU itself too. The rails being inconsistent has been a problem since day one. As complex as the striker is, a LOT. The FCU could be machined from billet as well, but see my question about copying S&W & doing a integral FCU in an aluminum frame, & abandoning modularity for consistent tight tolerances. |
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Quoted: As complex as the striker is, a LOT. The FCU could be machined from billet as well, but see my question about copying S&W & doing a integral FCU in an aluminum frame, & abandoning modularity for consistent tight tolerances. So whats the issue with the the 320 fcu being such a shit show and the 365 fcu apprently having no issues? never really understood that |
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Quoted: So whats the issue with the the 320 fcu being such a shit show and the 365 fcu apprently having no issues? never really understood that Quoted: Quoted: As complex as the striker is, a LOT. The FCU could be machined from billet as well, but see my question about copying S&W & doing a integral FCU in an aluminum frame, & abandoning modularity for consistent tight tolerances. So whats the issue with the the 320 fcu being such a shit show and the 365 fcu apprently having no issues? never really understood that The 365 was a clean sheet design basically copying Glock's homework, but there have been issues w/ Indian MIM parts breakage. The 320 is a striker design retrofit into the FCU & frame of SIG's DAO P250 - P250 mags & frames are interchangeable w/ the P320. |
 Elbonia drops the SIG P320 |
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Quoted: I admit, I don't remember reading in the manual for my 3 to lock the slide back on reassembly before rotating the takedown lever, but its kind of instinctual so I always did it. I still have the box and manual from my 1986 or so P226. I think there is a sentence or 2 when reassembling the pistol, to lock the slide to the rear with the slide stop, then rotating the takedown lever. Need to dig out the box and see. |
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Quoted: The 365 was a clean sheet design basically copying Glock's homework, but there have been issues w/ Indian MIM parts breakage. The 320 is a striker design retrofit into the FCU & frame of SIG's DAO P250 - P250 mags & frames are interchangeable w/ the P320. 2 of the first 10 365s we got had to be sent back for machining issues. |
In case this was missed from last week The P320 Sear Safety Cam Explanation |
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Quoted: Yep SIG needs to figure out the issue and fix it. They probably do have the problem isolated and a fix. It's just that doing so will be so damning that it bankrupt the company. The lawsuits will be endless. I like my 320's. They shoot great. But they are range pistols. I just got a new FCU and a Flux Raider chassis on sale. |
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Quoted: They'd need to tighten up QC on the FCU itself too. The rails being inconsistent has been a problem since day one. A guy on 320 subreddit had a machinist friend make some 80% billet FCU's. After completing them out and building up the pistol, the fit between slide and FCU rails was much tighter. I considered getting one of the fully machined 80% FCU's and finishing it out. But his start up price of $400 was more than I was willing to fork out. |
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Quoted:They probably do have the problem isolated and a fix. It's just that doing so will be so damning that it bankrupt the company. The lawsuits will be endless. I like my 320's. They shoot great. But they are range pistols. I just got a new FCU and a Flux Raider chassis on sale. |
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post fbi report sig no longer has a foot to stand on in court. im not saying i trust the fbi but the courts do. sig is either going to shape up fast and do heavy post mortem damage repair or else law suits are going to be lost 100% of the time from here on out if sig is even remotely negligent. this is the breaking point weve all been waiting for. mr cohen has ruined sig beyond repair and has likely been looking for an exit strategy by now. i wonder what he has planned. the incoming lawsuits will get out of hand reaching settlements with no end. whoever takes his place at the helm needs to undo everything he did. such as reopen the german factory. restart german and american manufacture of outsourced indian made parts and reintroduce safe da/sa classics like true p228 and p239. then make mr cohen end out his days sitting in a room or church pew with random p320s pointed at his family off and on as some of us have done while this played out for years. make him play the p320 american roulette game while sitting near people whose p320s make a creaking sound as the frame twists when they stand and sit back and forth all day long. |
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Quoted: post fbi report sig no longer has a foot to stand on in court. im not saying i trust the fbi but the courts do. sig is either going to shape up fast and do heavy post mortem damage repair or else law suits are going to be lost 100% of the time from here on out if sig is even remotely negligent. this is the breaking point weve all been waiting for. mr cohen has ruined sig beyond repair and has likely been looking for an exit strategy by now. i wonder what he has planned. the incoming lawsuits will get out of hand reaching settlements with no end. whoever takes his place at the helm needs to undo everything he did. such as reopen the german factory. restart german and american manufacture of outsourced indian made parts and reintroduce safe da/sa classics like true p228 and p239. then make mr cohen end out his days sitting in a room or church pew with random p320s pointed at his family off and on as some of us have done while this played out for years. make him play the p320 american roulette game while sitting near people whose p320s make a creaking sound as the frame twists when they stand and sit back and forth all day long. Leaving Germany had more to do with the German government than anything else. There is no future in that country for small arms production, even HK is shifting towards the US |
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What? Sig put a stop-ship on P320s in July of 2025 for a small part QC check based on a report that was written in August of 2024 about a pistol that was issued in April of 2024? I don't think "missing material on the safety lever" is the explanation here, and even if it's a contributing factor, good luck figuring out how long guns have been built and shipped that way. |