[ARCHIVED THREAD] - SIG “ The P320. It ends today.” (Page 138 of 142)
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Oof. That's a big deal. I guess at least they didn't pull a Team Glock. |
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Quoted: UDs will probably stop happening, or at least slow down significantly, just from statistics. Look how many PDs and shooting leagues have banned their use. That's a lot of guns no longer being carried around, loaded. Then look at how many guys base what they buy and carry, even partially, on "what the cops use." A lot of THOSE guys are either not buying, or no longer carrying, the P320. It would be interesting to know how many fewer loaded P320s are being carried today, than 2 or 3 years ago. Or even one year ago. I bet it's a significant difference. Even the guys who are aware of a potential problem and change practices will make a difference. Guys who maybe clean the guns more often, or who now keep the gun completely unloaded except when they're on the firing line. There will also be a point in time (maybe we've already reached it) when, should a UD happen, the user will no longer want to publicize it. Instead of being looked at as "yet another victim of Sig's dangerous design" they'll be viewed as, "an idiot who was still using a gun he should have known better than to use." Stubborn Sig users who have a UD will go, "oh, shit! They were right," quietly look around to make sure no one else noticed, put the gun in the safe and never use it again. They'll just quietly stop using the gun rather than experience the "I told you so" from the rest of the gun community. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Based on what I’ve seen… Sig is clearly hoping this will just go away. That can only happen if UDs stop happening or if people stop caring about UDs happening. Neither of those seem terribly likely. UDs will probably stop happening, or at least slow down significantly, just from statistics. Look how many PDs and shooting leagues have banned their use. That's a lot of guns no longer being carried around, loaded. Then look at how many guys base what they buy and carry, even partially, on "what the cops use." A lot of THOSE guys are either not buying, or no longer carrying, the P320. It would be interesting to know how many fewer loaded P320s are being carried today, than 2 or 3 years ago. Or even one year ago. I bet it's a significant difference. Even the guys who are aware of a potential problem and change practices will make a difference. Guys who maybe clean the guns more often, or who now keep the gun completely unloaded except when they're on the firing line. There will also be a point in time (maybe we've already reached it) when, should a UD happen, the user will no longer want to publicize it. Instead of being looked at as "yet another victim of Sig's dangerous design" they'll be viewed as, "an idiot who was still using a gun he should have known better than to use." Stubborn Sig users who have a UD will go, "oh, shit! They were right," quietly look around to make sure no one else noticed, put the gun in the safe and never use it again. They'll just quietly stop using the gun rather than experience the "I told you so" from the rest of the gun community. This logic kind of checks out, but how many LE agencies and militaries haven't ditched their P320s? Enhanced cleaning and inspection procedures can mitigate this problem somewhat, but we're still talking about hundreds of thousands of these guns loaded in holsters. |
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I guess we can look forward to a Stoeger video tomorrow. |
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Quoted: This logic kind of checks out, but how many LE agencies and militaries haven't ditched their P320s? Enhanced cleaning and inspection procedures can mitigate this problem somewhat, but we're still talking about hundreds of thousands of these guns loaded in holsters. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Based on what I’ve seen… Sig is clearly hoping this will just go away. That can only happen if UDs stop happening or if people stop caring about UDs happening. Neither of those seem terribly likely. UDs will probably stop happening, or at least slow down significantly, just from statistics. Look how many PDs and shooting leagues have banned their use. That's a lot of guns no longer being carried around, loaded. Then look at how many guys base what they buy and carry, even partially, on "what the cops use." A lot of THOSE guys are either not buying, or no longer carrying, the P320. It would be interesting to know how many fewer loaded P320s are being carried today, than 2 or 3 years ago. Or even one year ago. I bet it's a significant difference. Even the guys who are aware of a potential problem and change practices will make a difference. Guys who maybe clean the guns more often, or who now keep the gun completely unloaded except when they're on the firing line. There will also be a point in time (maybe we've already reached it) when, should a UD happen, the user will no longer want to publicize it. Instead of being looked at as "yet another victim of Sig's dangerous design" they'll be viewed as, "an idiot who was still using a gun he should have known better than to use." Stubborn Sig users who have a UD will go, "oh, shit! They were right," quietly look around to make sure no one else noticed, put the gun in the safe and never use it again. They'll just quietly stop using the gun rather than experience the "I told you so" from the rest of the gun community. This logic kind of checks out, but how many LE agencies and militaries haven't ditched their P320s? Enhanced cleaning and inspection procedures can mitigate this problem somewhat, but we're still talking about hundreds of thousands of these guns loaded in holsters. I'm sure a lot haven't. Yet. Most police agencies are under some kind of contract for their handguns. I was already corrected earlier in this thread that the Michigan State Police contract can be exited at any time without penalty, but lots of other agencies are stuck until the contract is up. Their union officials, attorneys and insurance companies are likely going to "suggest" that they look at other options, if for no other reason than to distance themselves from a controversial product that will cause additional doubt and questioning every time an officer is involved in a shooting. I'd guess a lot of those agencies will not be sticking with the P320 next time around. I think over the next 3 to 5 years, the P320 is going to disappear from police agencies like the S&W 19 did in the 1990s. |
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TLDW Lena is leaving sig and didn't say where she was going Saved y'all 3 minutes of babbling bullshit Sig sucks |
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Quoted: Shot: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/G2mx9W6WwAAwV4g?format=jpg&name=small Chaser: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/G2mx9W8XQAEFlnw?format=jpg&name=small I'm sure her leaving Sig the first business day after seeing a Sigcident is completely unrelated. https://media3.giphy.com/media/j6NYrBN98iU1mNocNp/200.webp?cid=8dc8958cwppemk1bpocc1unnnrvigiqjhxwkf2gzsdc8gadf&ep=v1_gifs_search&rid=200.webp&ct=g Holy crap? She was at the match where the 320 went off, & she just quit Team SIG along w/ another guy? |
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Quoted: Holy crap? She was at the match where the 320 went off, & she just quit Team SIG along w/ another guy? It's not the P320 discharge Stoeger reported on; she said it happened on Friday and Stoeger reported it last Tuesday. Could be another P320 incident, could be unrelated. |
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Quoted: It's not the P320 discharge Stoeger reported on; she said it happened on Friday and Stoeger reported it last Tuesday. Quoted: Quoted: Holy crap? She was at the match where the 320 went off, & she just quit Team SIG along w/ another guy? It's not the P320 discharge Stoeger reported on; she said it happened on Friday and Stoeger reported it last Tuesday. |
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Quoted: At least a lever action MPX would probably cycle reliably. I waited for gen 2 for mine and still got a turd. Between it and the 365, Sig fooled me twice, shame on me.  What's wrong with the 365? Some guy at my range told me that he had two of them break unreasonably soon, and he would not carry them any more. |
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Quoted: No, but remember: the UDs require multiple systems to fail, not just one. I don't think it's hard to debate that the plunger type systems have a major mechanical advantage here. -There's less room for debris to interfere. -They only move on one axis. -Engagement is more consistent. -Most importantly: spring failures are a completely different animal. With a rotating type striker block, you're looking at a small torsion spring. Torsion springs tend to have a much higher rate of failure than coil springs, and when they fail, they tend to physically break. If the spring breaks, the system is completely compromised. It no longer works. It's also possible (and has been observed with P320s) for the legs of the spring to be mis-aligned off of the part. Meanwhile, with plunger type striker blocks, you're looking at a compression type coil spring. These are one of the most reliable types of spring. Typically, when they fail, they don't actually break, they just weaken. And in this application, even if one does break, the system will most likely continue to work. Depending upon the gun and how much space there is in the slide around the spring, you could probably remove the spring, cut it in half, put both halves back in the gun, and function test it, and the striker block will probably still work. It could be solid, or it could be iffy. It might make the trigger crunchy in pretravel. But it should still move the plunger as intended. I've had a few coil springs break, and everything continued to work, and I discovered the broken spring during cleaning. |
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Quoted: This logic kind of checks out, but how many LE agencies and militaries haven't ditched their P320s? Enhanced cleaning and inspection procedures can mitigate this problem somewhat, but we're still talking about hundreds of thousands of these guns loaded in holsters. Adopting a new pistol that requires inspections and maintenance procedures beyond what were required for the clapped out predecessors. Big win there. |
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Was curious if Sig put anything about Max and Lena leaving, which they did on their media page. Timing is everything, wonder if it was really a coincidence or not -- I suspect we'll know soon if there is something to this. Links inserted and relevant recent additional 'company news' below. SIG SAUER Thanks Max Michel and Lena Miculek for Their Valued Partnerships Ramapo Police Department Adopts the SIG SAUER P320 as Official Sidearm North Carolina Federal Court Dismisses a P320 Lawsuit |
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Quoted: It's not the P320 discharge Stoeger reported on; she said it happened on Friday and Stoeger reported it last Tuesday. Could be another P320 incident, could be unrelated. Stoeger first mentioned it on the morning Sunday the 28th. And FWIW, it happened on Saturday the 27th. And Lena was not competing at that match. |
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Quoted: Shot: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/G2mx9W6WwAAwV4g?format=jpg&name=small Chaser: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/G2mx9W8XQAEFlnw?format=jpg&name=small I'm sure her leaving Sig the first business day after seeing a Sigcident is completely unrelated. https://media3.giphy.com/media/j6NYrBN98iU1mNocNp/200.webp?cid=8dc8958cwppemk1bpocc1unnnrvigiqjhxwkf2gzsdc8gadf&ep=v1_gifs_search&rid=200.webp&ct=g Kind of reads like she's going to do her own thing now. Maybe start up her own shooting team or training company. |
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Quoted:Kind of reads like she's going to do her own thing now. Maybe start up her own shooting team or training company. Her and max on the same day is… interesting. Hopefully Ben will get some dirt. |
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Quoted: If I had sig backing up a money truck every week I wouldn’t leave to do my own thing, but I’m risk averse like that. Her and max on the same day is… interesting. Hopefully Ben will get some dirt. Quoted: Quoted:Kind of reads like she's going to do her own thing now. Maybe start up her own shooting team or training company. Her and max on the same day is… interesting. Hopefully Ben will get some dirt. That's the key detail, isn't it. Lena's post said "I'm stepping away from my roles at Sig Sauer..." This implies that she made the decision to leave, but that could be misleading. Max's post said "my time with Sig Sauer has come to a close." That's as vague as it gets. |
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Quoted: From Trench Grenade, take it for what it's worth. Supposedly from an insider: SIG let their whole marketing team go Lena was getting paid $1M, wanted $1.4M, SIG said no. 
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Quoted: From Trench Grenade, take it for what it's worth. Supposedly from an insider: SIG let their whole marketing team go Lena was getting paid $1M, wanted $1.4M, SIG said no. Firing the people behind the "It ends today" social media campaign should have happened immediately after the flames erupted. Keeping world class shooters on your payroll for $1M+ each might be kind of hard to justify if your company is struggling financially or if the guns they shoot aren't allowed in their sport anymore. Outside of that? You still need marketing. Sig may be living in a PR nightmare, but if they're approaching that problem as if PR is the root of the problem, they're guaranteed to fail in solving that problem. |
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Quoted: Firing the people behind the "It ends today" social media campaign should have happened immediately after the flames erupted. Keeping world class shooters on your payroll for $1M+ each might be kind of hard to justify if your company is struggling financially or if the guns they shoot aren't allowed in their sport anymore. Outside of that? You still need marketing. Sig may be living in a PR nightmare, but if they're approaching that problem as if PR is the root of the problem, they're guaranteed to fail in solving that problem.
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Quoted: From Trench Grenade, take it for what it's worth. Supposedly from an insider: SIG let their whole marketing team go Lena was getting paid $1M, wanted $1.4M, SIG said no. Daniel Horner and Mason Lane are the remaining members of Team Sig. Horner started on Oct 9th, 2018. I wonder if his contract comes up for renewal around the same time every year. He hasn't posted on social media for a while.  Lane joined last year on May 16th. He may be on a yearly contract, too. Hey Siri, set a reminder to see if Mason Lane posted a goodbye message to Team Sig on May 17, 2026. |
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Quoted: Goodness gracious.....Ima holding on to my two thinking who knows, but maybe they will one day do an exchange for another model or something similar. I'm starting to think my plan is foolish. 
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Quoted: That seems like a lower probability thing the longer this goes on. Maybe ruger can make a frame for the RXM that takes Sig mags? Quoted: Quoted: Goodness gracious.....Ima holding on to my two thinking who knows, but maybe they will one day do an exchange for another model or something similar. I'm starting to think my plan is foolish. That seems like a lower probability thing the longer this goes on. Maybe ruger can make a frame for the RXM that takes Sig mags? The Taurus G3 series takes SIG mags - but P226s, not P320s.
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Quoted: Kinda like a 3 letter AR company that everyone pays organ money for? Who you callin' everyone? Not this guy. This guy picks up USMC-marked KAC micros off eBay for dirt cheap. You call it stolen government property, I call it reclaiming my misspent tax dollars. We are not the same. 
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Quoted: Prices still a dropping on PD trade ins. I think these were $289 when they first got them. https://i.postimg.cc/HLJQCQ0G/Screenshot-20251008-092238-Chrome.jpg New 9mm base models were being sold by GT Distributors for $250 a few weeks ago. |
| The whole market is soft. Got a call and a text from a promoter wanting me at her gun show in two weeks, a call from NSSF likely wanting me to come back to SHOT, and a text from a distributor about Ruger ARs being marked down $200 at wholesale. All before lunch. |
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Quoted: 1 At this point who doesn't have a gun? 2 While somewhat improved, ammo is expensive, but more importantly everything else is expensive, so the toy budget gets hit first. All the 18 yr olds. I fairly regularly sell folks their 1st gun. Either a .22 their folks are buying for em, a .38 revolver, a Taurus G3 series, or a Glurk. |
Part 3 from Sig on the P320 series of videos where this time they compare parts wear of a 75K round rental gun to new parts. First two parts are linked below too... Inside the P320 Part 3 Part 1 Part 2 From above posts, find that hard to believe the dollar amount as a influencer in the gun industry -- maybe a share or royalty for Rose line? Who knows? Also, not saying Trench Grenade is wrong, but...  The HILARIOUS Crash Out of America's SILLIEST Drill Sergeant Trench Grenade |
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Quoted: Also, not saying Trench Grenade is wrong, but...  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fl5_fmO0xlwWell, that's unfortunate. Maybe he could do a guest appearance with Yankee Marshall? |
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Quoted: From above posts, find that hard to believe the dollar amount as a influencer in the gun industry -- maybe a share or royalty for Rose line? Who knows? Also, not saying Trench Grenade is wrong, but... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fl5_fmO0xlwThat was hilarious. |
This video is interesting and it shows several pulls with a digital trigger gauge and he is getting all 3 pounds 10 ounces and 3 pounds 2.5 ounce for the release. Seems low in my world. I would not carry something with that light a pull loaded. Could also be a problem if you use it and the police test it. SIG P320 / Let's talk about it |
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Quoted: That seems like a lower probability thing the longer this goes on. Maybe ruger can make a frame for the RXM that takes Sig mags? Aftermarket maybe? Imagine being able to order a Ruger RXM and pull out the chassis to use a made to order grip frame that can hold any magazine you wanted like a Beretta 92 mag. LOL!! |
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Quoted: Really? What is the legal specification on the trigger pull weight? Can you cite the specific statute? Quoted: Quoted: Could also be a problem if you use it and the police test it. Really? What is the legal specification on the trigger pull weight? Can you cite the specific statute? Well statutes would vary by state and I doubt any states really have this on the books. But if you are involved in a shooting the weapon most likely will be held, reviewed in at least some fashion to make sure it works properly and nothing is disabled or changed to make it more dangerous. I would not be surprised if the armorer does some trigger pulls on it. Here are a few thoughts on the matter: USCCA says 5 to 8 pounds for defensive handgun Massaad Ayoob Stating about same thing He talks about Glocks for police are always 5.5 pounds. I think a certified Glock armorer can lose their certification if they let something leave their bench knowing it is a defensive handgun and the pull is below a certain number. (I forget the number, not Glock armorer). Now this will slide into into a discussion on Ayoob. |
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Quoted: Well statutes would vary by state and I doubt any states really have this on the books. But if you are involved in a shooting the weapon most likely will be held, reviewed in at least some fashion to make sure it works properly and nothing is disabled or changed to make it more dangerous. I would not be surprised if the armorer does some trigger pulls on it. Here are a few thoughts on the matter: USCCA says 5 to 8 pounds for defensive handgun Massaad Ayoob Stating about same thing He talks about Glocks for police are always 5.5 pounds. I think a certified Glock armorer can lose their certification if they let something leave their bench knowing it is a defensive handgun and the pull is below a certain number. (I forget the number, not Glock armorer). Now this will slide into into a discussion on Ayoob. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Could also be a problem if you use it and the police test it. Really? What is the legal specification on the trigger pull weight? Can you cite the specific statute? Well statutes would vary by state and I doubt any states really have this on the books. But if you are involved in a shooting the weapon most likely will be held, reviewed in at least some fashion to make sure it works properly and nothing is disabled or changed to make it more dangerous. I would not be surprised if the armorer does some trigger pulls on it. Here are a few thoughts on the matter: USCCA says 5 to 8 pounds for defensive handgun Massaad Ayoob Stating about same thing He talks about Glocks for police are always 5.5 pounds. I think a certified Glock armorer can lose their certification if they let something leave their bench knowing it is a defensive handgun and the pull is below a certain number. (I forget the number, not Glock armorer). Now this will slide into into a discussion on Ayoob. What's the standard trigger pull weight on a brand-new, factory-spec Staccato? Hint: it's lower than 5.5 pounds. |