[ARCHIVED THREAD] - SIG “ The P320. It ends today.” (Page 13 of 142)
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Quoted: AND NOW FOR SOMETHING ENTIRELY DIFFERENT... It may not have been Safariland. Safariland LE holsters. There have been some things I have stumbled on where it has been observed that the Safariland holsters have a gap due to weapon light holsters design and the "narrow" P320 trigger guard that makes it possible "foreign objects" can get into the holster. Such things as shirt tails, jacket drawstrings, etc. One case (that I cannot provide a link) where a School Resource Officer had a kid walk up and put their finger in that holster gap and the weapon discharged. (No one was injured.) Additionally, at Shot Show 2025 Safariland had a new LE holster that had a soft flexible edging at the holster what closed that area which was designed to prevent "foreign objects" from being dragged into the holster when holstering the pistol. So... this is beyond "it fires uncommanded" issue, which may or may not been corrected with the "voluntary upgrade" and it only has to do with the "I did not touch the pistol but it went bang"... I would say it would have prevented the school student from being to put their finger in the SRO's holster. It was Classic Firearms Shot Show coverage, interview by Erdal Kaya. I can't find it... maybe the Blade-Tech Valor Duty Holster In a previous thread a member here posted pictures of his 320 w/ light and G17 w/ light in the correct Safariland holsters. The holster cut was lower on the 320, combined with a thin trigger guard there was considerably more room to access the trigger on the 320 vs the G17. I can't remember the username or I'd tag them. Not saying that's the only issue but it could be a contributing factor in some of the reports. |
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Quoted: Up to this point... L O W H A N G I N G F R U I T! Easy money out of court settlement. The attorneys are not working for the injured party. The attorney is working for themselves! Who gets the larger amount on a cash settlement? The attorney, who is not working form the client... they are working for what profit they can get by speculating they have a client that can get them a cash settlement or try a case they are sure of winning!! These type of cases are done on a contingent basis with the attorney seeing a payoff for himself. Furthermore... he is betting SIG Sauer will decide it is cheaper to offer a cash settlement... in this case SIG may feel they may be able to win the case BUT it will cost a considerably more money than settling with the condition of a Non-Disclosure Agreement, to prevent the injured party from speaking about the incident and from disclosing the amount of the settlement. By not disclosing the amount of the payout, SIG is counting on an attorney being dissuaded from digging for a settlement that might not be more than they could bill the injured party. The attorney gets an agreed percentage of the settled cash amount AFTER the the billed expenses of the attorney! The public statement in this case by SIG Sauer may have been a message to attorneys, with the message being SIG will no longer settle without a trial. The payout by SIG up to this point may be past the acceptable payout amount, that it is costing more than if they start forcing trials. In other words... the low hanging fruit has all been picked, there is no more! Quoted: Quoted: I should clarify. You posted a lawsuit about a baby shooting himself and a chop shooting himself with trigger pulls, which is not the same as these lawsuits. But these current lawsuits are claiming sigs are going off untouched. The common response I see is ‘I’m sure this was a user induced ND.’ So why is sig sued over and over recently and no other gun company right now? Up to this point... L O W H A N G I N G F R U I T! Easy money out of court settlement. The attorneys are not working for the injured party. The attorney is working for themselves! Who gets the larger amount on a cash settlement? The attorney, who is not working form the client... they are working for what profit they can get by speculating they have a client that can get them a cash settlement or try a case they are sure of winning!! These type of cases are done on a contingent basis with the attorney seeing a payoff for himself. Furthermore... he is betting SIG Sauer will decide it is cheaper to offer a cash settlement... in this case SIG may feel they may be able to win the case BUT it will cost a considerably more money than settling with the condition of a Non-Disclosure Agreement, to prevent the injured party from speaking about the incident and from disclosing the amount of the settlement. By not disclosing the amount of the payout, SIG is counting on an attorney being dissuaded from digging for a settlement that might not be more than they could bill the injured party. The attorney gets an agreed percentage of the settled cash amount AFTER the the billed expenses of the attorney! The public statement in this case by SIG Sauer may have been a message to attorneys, with the message being SIG will no longer settle without a trial. The payout by SIG up to this point may be past the acceptable payout amount, that it is costing more than if they start forcing trials. In other words... the low hanging fruit has all been picked, there is no more! that seems far fetched. but I guess we'll see about those payouts since sig has had ENOUGH! |
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Quoted: Having it happen to multiple different people *is* replication. If we adopt a standard that says "it can happen to everyone in the country but if it doesn't happen to any one of them twice, or twice in the same way, it doesn't matter" ... well, that would be ludicrous on it's face, no? After a while of it happening to different people you have to give that up and say that something IS happening, regardless what it is, and look for what is a constant in those situations. In these cases, at absolute barest minimum ... it's an individual model of gun. Quoted: Quoted: Sure, maybe there's a little of that, somewhere... but you have to admit, the problem has to be replicable in order to be a Big Hairy Deal. Otherwise one is simply falling for the anti-hype because they agree with it. If we adopt a standard that says "it can happen to everyone in the country but if it doesn't happen to any one of them twice, or twice in the same way, it doesn't matter" ... well, that would be ludicrous on it's face, no? After a while of it happening to different people you have to give that up and say that something IS happening, regardless what it is, and look for what is a constant in those situations. In these cases, at absolute barest minimum ... it's an individual model of gun. Not from an engineering perspective. Having multiple different people have uncommanded discharges is an indication of a potential problem, I'd be amazed if the engineers at Sig haven't been looking for a root cause (that doesn't mean they'd ever broadcast it). The people looking for replication are talking about A) Repeat an uncommanded discharge in the same gun B) Repeat the test that caused the uncommanded discharge in A with 1 or more additional guns Being able to do this allows you to root cause what the actual failure mode is, which is the thing that everyone is speculating about now....ie this part is out of spec, vibration...etc..etc. Until someone is able to replicate the failure like described above, everything will continue to be speculation. When there is speculation, there is doubt and that opens the possibility for nonmechanical failure speculation (holsters, drawstrings, finger fucking...etc...etc) None of this means there isn't a mechanical issue with the gun, it means there isn't a proven root cause failure mode that can replicated in controlled conditions that prove without question that if part A is out of tolerance by X amount and part B is out of tolerance by X amount....gun go boom. Wanting to know this information doesn't make you a Sig fanboy (although some might be), it just means you'd like to know what the root cause of the issue is. For reference, I'm not a huge Sig fan, I normally carry a G19 or P365 depending on the day. I do own a P320 but it's mainly a range toy, I could sell it tomorrow and not care....my experience says it's not a great or horrible gun. I liked the idea of the modularity when it first came out, turns out it's not a super useful feature for someone who just buys more guns anyway 
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Quoted: In a previous thread a member here posted pictures of his 320 w/ light and G17 w/ light in the correct Safariland holsters. The holster cut was lower on the 320, combined with a thin trigger guard there was considerably more room to access the trigger on the 320 vs the G17. I can't remember the username or I'd tag them. Not saying that's the only issue but it could be a contributing factor in some of the reports. I'm sorry sir but there is no room for this kind of reasonable logic in any of the P320 threads.  Also a valid point that no one seems to bring up. |
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Quoted: I would not carry a pistol with no manual or trigger safety. Quoted: Quoted: AND NOW FOR SOMETHING ENTIRELY DIFFERENT... It may not have been Safariland. Safariland LE holsters. There have been some things I have stumbled on where it has been observed that the Safariland holsters have a gap due to weapon light holsters design and the "narrow" P320 trigger guard that makes it possible "foreign objects" can get into the holster. Such things as shirt tails, jacket drawstrings, etc. One case (that I cannot provide a link) where a School Resource Officer had a kid walk up and put their finger in that holster gap and the weapon discharged. (No one was injured.) Additionally, at Shot Show 2025 Safariland had a new LE holster that had a soft flexible edging at the holster what closed that area which was designed to prevent "foreign objects" from being dragged into the holster when holstering the pistol. So... this is beyond "it fires uncommanded" issue, which may or may not been corrected with the "voluntary upgrade" and it only has to do with the "I did not touch the pistol but it went bang"... I would say it would have prevented the school student from being to put their finger in the SRO's holster. It was Classic Firearms Shot Show coverage, interview by Erdal Kaya. I would not carry a pistol with no manual or trigger safety. I would never carry a Pistol with a manual safety. |
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Quoted: But they’re not saying these guns are being dropped. Yes that was an issue in early guns, guns built post update that doesn’t happen these claims are guns are simply going off at random. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Of the guns that supposedly fired without having the trigger pulled. Have any been able to be duplicated in a lab or investigation? Still trying to figure out how a firing pin block installed in these allows it to fire. In theory it shouldn’t be possible to do so. Asking straightforward questions. “ we have confirmed that usually after multiple drops, at certain angles and conditions, a potential discharge of the firearm may result when dropped.” -Sig website You haven’t seen videos of 320s firing from an impact to the back of the slide? But they’re not saying these guns are being dropped. Yes that was an issue in early guns, guns built post update that doesn’t happen these claims are guns are simply going off at random. They don’t have to be dropped. A blow to the back of the slide does it too. That’s why cops guns are going off when they toss their gun belt on the ground or into the trunk of their car. Or even in at least one case, slam their locker door |
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Quoted: Today, I have already aiwb my 365 Macro, changed out, and put on my 320 Pro. Living life on the edge... https://j.gifs.com/n5omw7.gif 
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Quoted: They don’t have to be dropped. A blow to the back of the slide does it too. That’s why cops guns are going off when they toss their gun belt on the ground or into the trunk of their car. Or even in at least one case, slam their locker door Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Of the guns that supposedly fired without having the trigger pulled. Have any been able to be duplicated in a lab or investigation? Still trying to figure out how a firing pin block installed in these allows it to fire. In theory it shouldn’t be possible to do so. Asking straightforward questions. “ we have confirmed that usually after multiple drops, at certain angles and conditions, a potential discharge of the firearm may result when dropped.” -Sig website You haven’t seen videos of 320s firing from an impact to the back of the slide? But they’re not saying these guns are being dropped. Yes that was an issue in early guns, guns built post update that doesn’t happen these claims are guns are simply going off at random. They don’t have to be dropped. A blow to the back of the slide does it too. That’s why cops guns are going off when they toss their gun belt on the ground or into the trunk of their car. Or even in at least one case, slam their locker door Man, is that why I go through a mag a day of Gold Dots? Stupid me! |
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Quoted: They don’t have to be dropped. A blow to the back of the slide does it too. That’s why cops guns are going off when they toss their gun belt on the ground or into the trunk of their car. Or even in at least one case, slam their locker door Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Of the guns that supposedly fired without having the trigger pulled. Have any been able to be duplicated in a lab or investigation? Still trying to figure out how a firing pin block installed in these allows it to fire. In theory it shouldn’t be possible to do so. Asking straightforward questions. “ we have confirmed that usually after multiple drops, at certain angles and conditions, a potential discharge of the firearm may result when dropped.” -Sig website You haven’t seen videos of 320s firing from an impact to the back of the slide? But they’re not saying these guns are being dropped. Yes that was an issue in early guns, guns built post update that doesn’t happen these claims are guns are simply going off at random. They don’t have to be dropped. A blow to the back of the slide does it too. That’s why cops guns are going off when they toss their gun belt on the ground or into the trunk of their car. Or even in at least one case, slam their locker door So not a single case has happened with a post upgrade gun? Maximum doubt |
| Ron Cohen should embrace the notoriety and renounce all Swiss/German heritage associated with his company. His marketing department needs to revise the company name to reflect the current ethos pervasive throughout his company. Cohen should name his company "Singh Saar." |
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Quoted: Today, I have already aiwb my 365 Macro, changed out, and put on my 320 Pro. Living life on the edge... https://j.gifs.com/n5omw7.gif Hope you don't jostle about too much, lest your firing pin hit a primer with no trigger pul. |
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Quoted: Not from an engineering perspective. Having multiple different people have uncommanded discharges is an indication of a potential problem, I'd be amazed if the engineers at Sig haven't been looking for a root cause (that doesn't mean they'd ever broadcast it). Quoted: Not from an engineering perspective. Having multiple different people have uncommanded discharges is an indication of a potential problem, I'd be amazed if the engineers at Sig haven't been looking for a root cause (that doesn't mean they'd ever broadcast it). Quoted: The people looking for replication are talking about A) Repeat an uncommanded discharge in the same gun B) Repeat the test that caused the uncommanded discharge in A with 1 or more additional guns Yes, I get that. The lack of that, when you do have cases of "same thing with same gun happens to multiple people" does not mean you don't have repetition, and that shouldn't function as a magic phrase to hide behind that makes it where "nothing happening here, nothing happening, please disperse." People have to fix "I can't make that happen again" problems pretty routinely in life. They do suck to deal with. Quoted: For reference, I'm not a huge Sig fan, I normally carry a G19 or P365 depending on the day. I do own a P320 but it's mainly a range toy, I could sell it tomorrow and not care....my experience says it's not a great or horrible gun. I liked the idea of the modularity when it first came out, turns out it's not a super useful feature for someone who just buys more guns anyway Just right now I am at "wow, that's a crappy design" and "these guys (sig) are acting all wrong." |
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I have questions: 1- Makes one wonder how you could get any of these dangerous P320 pistols to pass industry standard testing? You would think not a single one would pass  . I mean a 1911 series 70, every shotgun, every AR15 don't have firing pin safety at all.......just makes me wonder.2- Seems to mostly be happening in police dept hands/holsters, also wonder how many of those are using an attached light/holster combo? |
Since we like posting Stoeger videos… today was Sig day.   Sig 320 X5 Legion Doubles Demo |
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Quoted: Except engineers are expected to and do use exactly that kind of repetition, in cases where you have ... airplane falls out of sky; cars running into each other on the street, at least some types of combat damage, etc. Yes, I get that. The lack of that, when you do have cases of "same thing with same gun happens to multiple people" does not mean you don't have repetition, and that shouldn't function as a magic phrase to hide behind that makes it where "nothing happening here, nothing happening, please disperse." People have to fix "I can't make that happen again" problems pretty routinely in life. They do suck to deal with. I genuinely don't have a dog in this fight, I don't own and never have owned any of sig's products and I'm pretty sure I don't know anyone who does. Just right now I am at "wow, that's a crappy design" and "these guys (sig) are acting all wrong." Bold: That's the problem though, we don't know for certain that the same thing is happening. We might suspect that the same thing is happening (and it might actually be) but we don't know for certain. We're currently relying on shitty quality video and/or a persons statement about what happened. It's possible the person doesn't know exactly what happened, like a draw string got in the holster but wasn't in the holster after the uncommanded discharge. It's possible that some of the reports (at least with no video) are a complete fabrication by the person who might lose their job for finger fucking their gun.....or someone just looking for a payday. It's also possible that 100% of the reports are exactly as described and their is a mechanical problem with the gun. The point is, we don't know that the conditions between all the different reports are the same, so we can't assume that they are. I mostly agree with you, where there is smoke there is probably fire. I'm just looking at it from a more technical perspective (sometimes the engineering brain doesn't turn off ) and I'm trying to separate the "what we think we know" vs "what we actually know". They are often very different things when the dust settles.I also agree that the engineers at Sig should have put together analysis data on these reports, looking at part tolerances vs received parts and modeling any possible combination of tolerance stack ups that could possibly result in an uncommanded discharge. If you have accurate 3D models, it's not that hard to do....I've done it more times than I can count (not firearm related). I've said it in other threads but I'll repeat it here. If there is a mechanical issue in the gun, I hope it's found and Sig's feet are held to the fire on it....but without real technical data that is repeatable (engineering speak) I'm not ready to grab my pitchfork and march to their office. |
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Quoted: Since we like posting Stoeger videos… today was Sig day.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWFGvKW4fwMI liked when he was talking about bringing his P320 back out and he mentioned the mods he did so that it, hopefully, won't blow up. 
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Quoted: Bold: That's the problem though, we don't know for certain that the same thing is happening. We might suspect that the same thing is happening (and it might actually be) but we don't know for certain. We're currently relying on shitty quality video and/or a persons statement about what happened. It's possible the person doesn't know exactly what happened, like a draw string got in the holster but wasn't in the holster after the uncommanded discharge. It's possible that some of the reports (at least with no video) are a complete fabrication by the person who might lose their job for finger fucking their gun.....or someone just looking for a payday. It's also possible that 100% of the reports are exactly as described and their is a mechanical problem with the gun. The point is, we don't know that the conditions between all the different reports are the same, so we can't assume that they are. I mostly agree with you, where there is smoke there is probably fire. I'm just looking at it from a more technical perspective (sometimes the engineering brain doesn't turn off ) and I'm trying to separate the "what we think we know" vs "what we actually know". They are often very different things when the dust settles.I also agree that the engineers at Sig should have put together analysis data on these reports, looking at part tolerances vs received parts and modeling any possible combination of tolerance stack ups that could possibly result in an uncommanded discharge. If you have accurate 3D models, it's not that hard to do....I've done it more times than I can count (not firearm related). I've said it in other threads but I'll repeat it here. If there is a mechanical issue in the gun, I hope it's found and Sig's feet are held to the fire on it....but without real technical data that is repeatable (engineering speak) I'm not ready to grab my pitchfork and march to their office. Quoted: Quoted: Except engineers are expected to and do use exactly that kind of repetition, in cases where you have ... airplane falls out of sky; cars running into each other on the street, at least some types of combat damage, etc. Yes, I get that. The lack of that, when you do have cases of "same thing with same gun happens to multiple people" does not mean you don't have repetition, and that shouldn't function as a magic phrase to hide behind that makes it where "nothing happening here, nothing happening, please disperse." People have to fix "I can't make that happen again" problems pretty routinely in life. They do suck to deal with. I genuinely don't have a dog in this fight, I don't own and never have owned any of sig's products and I'm pretty sure I don't know anyone who does. Just right now I am at "wow, that's a crappy design" and "these guys (sig) are acting all wrong." Bold: That's the problem though, we don't know for certain that the same thing is happening. We might suspect that the same thing is happening (and it might actually be) but we don't know for certain. We're currently relying on shitty quality video and/or a persons statement about what happened. It's possible the person doesn't know exactly what happened, like a draw string got in the holster but wasn't in the holster after the uncommanded discharge. It's possible that some of the reports (at least with no video) are a complete fabrication by the person who might lose their job for finger fucking their gun.....or someone just looking for a payday. It's also possible that 100% of the reports are exactly as described and their is a mechanical problem with the gun. The point is, we don't know that the conditions between all the different reports are the same, so we can't assume that they are. I mostly agree with you, where there is smoke there is probably fire. I'm just looking at it from a more technical perspective (sometimes the engineering brain doesn't turn off ) and I'm trying to separate the "what we think we know" vs "what we actually know". They are often very different things when the dust settles.I also agree that the engineers at Sig should have put together analysis data on these reports, looking at part tolerances vs received parts and modeling any possible combination of tolerance stack ups that could possibly result in an uncommanded discharge. If you have accurate 3D models, it's not that hard to do....I've done it more times than I can count (not firearm related). I've said it in other threads but I'll repeat it here. If there is a mechanical issue in the gun, I hope it's found and Sig's feet are held to the fire on it....but without real technical data that is repeatable (engineering speak) I'm not ready to grab my pitchfork and march to their office. That's not how safety decision making practice works. if there is trend data showing something is having a higher rate of safety failures, it's not a requirement to prove exactly why with 100% certainty. in fact, the opposite - it has to be proven to that level of certainty that it IS safe. to date, the failure rate appears to remain above baseline, and that video show ssufficient explanation as to why, to conclude it is not for sure 100% as -safe as all other baseline products. No way would I select that product for a large departmental contract, nor personal use, unless there was some other compelling reason. to which the removable trigger pack is very much not a compelling reason. (that would be the component part that engages the slides cocked firing pin and engages the retention systems on that spring tensioned firing pin. A component that isn't permanently embedded into the frame, and so potentially may have play in the frame. so there's that). |
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Quoted: They don’t have to be dropped. A blow to the back of the slide does it too. That’s why cops guns are going off when they toss their gun belt on the ground or into the trunk of their car. Or even in at least one case, slam their locker door Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Of the guns that supposedly fired without having the trigger pulled. Have any been able to be duplicated in a lab or investigation? Still trying to figure out how a firing pin block installed in these allows it to fire. In theory it shouldn’t be possible to do so. Asking straightforward questions. “ we have confirmed that usually after multiple drops, at certain angles and conditions, a potential discharge of the firearm may result when dropped.” -Sig website You haven’t seen videos of 320s firing from an impact to the back of the slide? But they’re not saying these guns are being dropped. Yes that was an issue in early guns, guns built post update that doesn’t happen these claims are guns are simply going off at random. They don’t have to be dropped. A blow to the back of the slide does it too. That’s why cops guns are going off when they toss their gun belt on the ground or into the trunk of their car. Or even in at least one case, slam their locker door Again though that was a previous iteration of the design there was a change to fix that. Many of these are allegedly post production guns. So these are guns that are allegedly going off at random. All the videos of I used a hammer are all pre-“upgrade” |
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Quoted: That's not how safety decision making practice works. if there is trend data showing something is having a higher rate of safety failures, it's not a requirement to prove exactly why with 100% certainty. in fact, the opposite - it has to be proven to that level of certainty that it IS safe. to date, the failure rate appears to remain above baseline, and that video show ssufficient explanation as to why, to conclude it is not for sure 100% as -safe as all other baseline products. No way would I select that product for a large departmental contract, nor personal use, unless there was some other compelling reason. to which the removable trigger pack is very much not a compelling reason. (that would be the component part that engages the slides cocked firing pin and mention systems. A component that isnt permanently embedded into the frame, and so potentially may have play in the frame. so theres that). Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Except engineers are expected to and do use exactly that kind of repetition, in cases where you have ... airplane falls out of sky; cars running into each other on the street, at least some types of combat damage, etc. Yes, I get that. The lack of that, when you do have cases of "same thing with same gun happens to multiple people" does not mean you don't have repetition, and that shouldn't function as a magic phrase to hide behind that makes it where "nothing happening here, nothing happening, please disperse." People have to fix "I can't make that happen again" problems pretty routinely in life. They do suck to deal with. I genuinely don't have a dog in this fight, I don't own and never have owned any of sig's products and I'm pretty sure I don't know anyone who does. Just right now I am at "wow, that's a crappy design" and "these guys (sig) are acting all wrong." Bold: That's the problem though, we don't know for certain that the same thing is happening. We might suspect that the same thing is happening (and it might actually be) but we don't know for certain. We're currently relying on shitty quality video and/or a persons statement about what happened. It's possible the person doesn't know exactly what happened, like a draw string got in the holster but wasn't in the holster after the uncommanded discharge. It's possible that some of the reports (at least with no video) are a complete fabrication by the person who might lose their job for finger fucking their gun.....or someone just looking for a payday. It's also possible that 100% of the reports are exactly as described and their is a mechanical problem with the gun. The point is, we don't know that the conditions between all the different reports are the same, so we can't assume that they are. I mostly agree with you, where there is smoke there is probably fire. I'm just looking at it from a more technical perspective (sometimes the engineering brain doesn't turn off ) and I'm trying to separate the "what we think we know" vs "what we actually know". They are often very different things when the dust settles.I also agree that the engineers at Sig should have put together analysis data on these reports, looking at part tolerances vs received parts and modeling any possible combination of tolerance stack ups that could possibly result in an uncommanded discharge. If you have accurate 3D models, it's not that hard to do....I've done it more times than I can count (not firearm related). I've said it in other threads but I'll repeat it here. If there is a mechanical issue in the gun, I hope it's found and Sig's feet are held to the fire on it....but without real technical data that is repeatable (engineering speak) I'm not ready to grab my pitchfork and march to their office. That's not how safety decision making practice works. if there is trend data showing something is having a higher rate of safety failures, it's not a requirement to prove exactly why with 100% certainty. in fact, the opposite - it has to be proven to that level of certainty that it IS safe. to date, the failure rate appears to remain above baseline, and that video show ssufficient explanation as to why, to conclude it is not for sure 100% as -safe as all other baseline products. No way would I select that product for a large departmental contract, nor personal use, unless there was some other compelling reason. to which the removable trigger pack is very much not a compelling reason. (that would be the component part that engages the slides cocked firing pin and mention systems. A component that isnt permanently embedded into the frame, and so potentially may have play in the frame. so theres that). I agree, for Sig engineering, I basically said as much in an earlier comment. I'm talking in general about what is known vs what is fact. Are this many claims of uncommanded discharges alarming, yes. Is the information known to the public about all of these cases 100% accurate, where there were zero contributing factors other than a mechanical issue in the gun.....maybe. My point is, we don't know for a fact that they are.....odds are at least some of them are not though. |
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Quoted: That's not how safety decision making practice works. if there is trend data showing something is having a higher rate of safety failures, it's not a requirement to prove exactly why with 100% certainty. in fact, the opposite - it has to be proven to that level of certainty that it IS safe. to date, the failure rate appears to remain above baseline, and that video show ssufficient explanation as to why, to conclude it is not for sure 100% as -safe as all other baseline products. No way would I select that product for a large departmental contract, nor personal use, unless there was some other compelling reason. to which the removable trigger pack is very much not a compelling reason. (that would be the component part that engages the slides cocked firing pin and engages the retention systems on that spring tensioned firing pin. A component that isn't permanently embedded into the frame, and so potentially may have play in the frame. so there's that). Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Except engineers are expected to and do use exactly that kind of repetition, in cases where you have ... airplane falls out of sky; cars running into each other on the street, at least some types of combat damage, etc. Yes, I get that. The lack of that, when you do have cases of "same thing with same gun happens to multiple people" does not mean you don't have repetition, and that shouldn't function as a magic phrase to hide behind that makes it where "nothing happening here, nothing happening, please disperse." People have to fix "I can't make that happen again" problems pretty routinely in life. They do suck to deal with. I genuinely don't have a dog in this fight, I don't own and never have owned any of sig's products and I'm pretty sure I don't know anyone who does. Just right now I am at "wow, that's a crappy design" and "these guys (sig) are acting all wrong." Bold: That's the problem though, we don't know for certain that the same thing is happening. We might suspect that the same thing is happening (and it might actually be) but we don't know for certain. We're currently relying on shitty quality video and/or a persons statement about what happened. It's possible the person doesn't know exactly what happened, like a draw string got in the holster but wasn't in the holster after the uncommanded discharge. It's possible that some of the reports (at least with no video) are a complete fabrication by the person who might lose their job for finger fucking their gun.....or someone just looking for a payday. It's also possible that 100% of the reports are exactly as described and their is a mechanical problem with the gun. The point is, we don't know that the conditions between all the different reports are the same, so we can't assume that they are. I mostly agree with you, where there is smoke there is probably fire. I'm just looking at it from a more technical perspective (sometimes the engineering brain doesn't turn off ) and I'm trying to separate the "what we think we know" vs "what we actually know". They are often very different things when the dust settles.I also agree that the engineers at Sig should have put together analysis data on these reports, looking at part tolerances vs received parts and modeling any possible combination of tolerance stack ups that could possibly result in an uncommanded discharge. If you have accurate 3D models, it's not that hard to do....I've done it more times than I can count (not firearm related). I've said it in other threads but I'll repeat it here. If there is a mechanical issue in the gun, I hope it's found and Sig's feet are held to the fire on it....but without real technical data that is repeatable (engineering speak) I'm not ready to grab my pitchfork and march to their office. That's not how safety decision making practice works. if there is trend data showing something is having a higher rate of safety failures, it's not a requirement to prove exactly why with 100% certainty. in fact, the opposite - it has to be proven to that level of certainty that it IS safe. to date, the failure rate appears to remain above baseline, and that video show ssufficient explanation as to why, to conclude it is not for sure 100% as -safe as all other baseline products. No way would I select that product for a large departmental contract, nor personal use, unless there was some other compelling reason. to which the removable trigger pack is very much not a compelling reason. (that would be the component part that engages the slides cocked firing pin and engages the retention systems on that spring tensioned firing pin. A component that isn't permanently embedded into the frame, and so potentially may have play in the frame. so there's that). For police departments, the modularity of the 320 isn't generally a compelling reason. |
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Quoted: For police departments, the modularity of the 320 isn't generally a compelling reason. For the Army, it was. For the home builder, being able to form a rather thin sheet of metal into a rectangular chassis, and order everything else off the internet is a pretty big deal. Of course, now w/ the Gluger, you can do that w/ Glock and Magpul parts - and we've been able to do it w/ the Ruger American, KelTec P32 & P3AT/Ruger LCP, the Beretta chassis pistol, & the Steyr. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Except engineers are expected to and do use exactly that kind of repetition, in cases where you have ... airplane falls out of sky; cars running into each other on the street, at least some types of combat damage, etc. Yes, I get that. The lack of that, when you do have cases of "same thing with same gun happens to multiple people" does not mean you don't have repetition, and that shouldn't function as a magic phrase to hide behind that makes it where "nothing happening here, nothing happening, please disperse." People have to fix "I can't make that happen again" problems pretty routinely in life. They do suck to deal with. I genuinely don't have a dog in this fight, I don't own and never have owned any of sig's products and I'm pretty sure I don't know anyone who does. Just right now I am at "wow, that's a crappy design" and "these guys (sig) are acting all wrong." Bold: That's the problem though, we don't know for certain that the same thing is happening. We might suspect that the same thing is happening (and it might actually be) but we don't know for certain. We're currently relying on shitty quality video and/or a persons statement about what happened. It's possible the person doesn't know exactly what happened, like a draw string got in the holster but wasn't in the holster after the uncommanded discharge. It's possible that some of the reports (at least with no video) are a complete fabrication by the person who might lose their job for finger fucking their gun.....or someone just looking for a payday. It's also possible that 100% of the reports are exactly as described and their is a mechanical problem with the gun. The point is, we don't know that the conditions between all the different reports are the same, so we can't assume that they are. I mostly agree with you, where there is smoke there is probably fire. I'm just looking at it from a more technical perspective (sometimes the engineering brain doesn't turn off ) and I'm trying to separate the "what we think we know" vs "what we actually know". They are often very different things when the dust settles.I also agree that the engineers at Sig should have put together analysis data on these reports, looking at part tolerances vs received parts and modeling any possible combination of tolerance stack ups that could possibly result in an uncommanded discharge. If you have accurate 3D models, it's not that hard to do....I've done it more times than I can count (not firearm related). I've said it in other threads but I'll repeat it here. If there is a mechanical issue in the gun, I hope it's found and Sig's feet are held to the fire on it....but without real technical data that is repeatable (engineering speak) I'm not ready to grab my pitchfork and march to their office. That's not how safety decision making practice works. if there is trend data showing something is having a higher rate of safety failures, it's not a requirement to prove exactly why with 100% certainty. in fact, the opposite - it has to be proven to that level of certainty that it IS safe. to date, the failure rate appears to remain above baseline, and that video show ssufficient explanation as to why, to conclude it is not for sure 100% as -safe as all other baseline products. No way would I select that product for a large departmental contract, nor personal use, unless there was some other compelling reason. to which the removable trigger pack is very much not a compelling reason. (that would be the component part that engages the slides cocked firing pin and engages the retention systems on that spring tensioned firing pin. A component that isn't permanently embedded into the frame, and so potentially may have play in the frame. so there's that). For police departments, the modularity of the 320 isn't generally a compelling reason. For the Army, it was. For the home builder, being able to form a rather thin sheet of metal into a rectangular chassis, and order everything else off the internet is a pretty big deal. Of course, now w/ the Gluger, you can do that w/ Glock and Magpul parts - and we've been able to do it w/ the Ruger American, KelTec P32 & P3AT/Ruger LCP, the Beretta chassis pistol, & the Steyr. I thought it might be compelling to people in states that have stricter pistol laws....having 1 "gun" with the trigger pack that you could drop into any number of "not gun" frames. Sort of like having 1 AR lower with 5 different uppers to switch between depending on what you wanted to do. Not sure how practical it is in the real world though. |
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Quoted: For police departments, the modularity of the 320 isn't generally a compelling reason. For the Army, it was. |
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Do we have any idea on dates of manufacture that are allegedly going off? Looking through this thread gave me pause (rolling upgrade to some parts such as springs). I'm not an engineer, and I love my 320, but...I can kinda see the possible issue. https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?43653-New-2-July-2020-SIG-P320-Lawsuit-and-P320-Concerns/page12 |
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Quoted: I bet most of their issues would disappear if they went with a trigger face safety like nearly every other striker fired gun Quoted: Quoted: I bet most of their issues would dissappear if they stopped using mim parts from India I bet most of their issues would disappear if they went with a trigger face safety like nearly every other striker fired gun Not if there's a sear/firing pin/firing pin block issue, which I believe several of these incidents are pointing to. |
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Quoted: I thought it might be compelling to people in states that have stricter pistol laws....having 1 "gun" with the trigger pack that you could drop into any number of "not gun" frames. Sort of like having 1 AR lower with 5 different uppers to switch between depending on what you wanted to do. Not sure how practical it is in the real world though. It's not practical because unless you're buying an FCU and then building the gun with separate Gucci parts, once you buy a standard slide and grip you're already at the price of another 320. |
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Quoted: No it wasn't. The MHS requirements never called for an FCU. They wanted adjustable grip size, a railed dustcover, and the option to mount optics. All of the submissions met those requirements. Correct. Sig won the contract solely on price. Their bid undercut everyone else SIGnificantly. I think the math came out to under $160/ea. |
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Quoted: No it wasn't. The MHS requirements never called for an FCU. They wanted adjustable grip size, a railed dustcover, and the option to mount optics. All of the submissions met those requirements. Quoted: Quoted: For police departments, the modularity of the 320 isn't generally a compelling reason. For the Army, it was. No it wasn't. The MHS requirements never called for an FCU. They wanted adjustable grip size, a railed dustcover, and the option to mount optics. All of the submissions met those requirements. Ah, my mistake. |
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Quoted: I bet most of their issues would disappear if they went with a trigger face safety like nearly every other striker fired gun Quoted: Quoted: I bet most of their issues would dissappear if they stopped using mim parts from India I bet most of their issues would disappear if they went with a trigger face safety like nearly every other striker fired gun Wider trigger guards would also solve the potential of space allowing something inside with a holstered gun. |
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Quoted: I thought it might be compelling to people in states that have stricter pistol laws....having 1 "gun" with the trigger pack that you could drop into any number of "not gun" frames. Sort of like having 1 AR lower with 5 different uppers to switch between depending on what you wanted to do. Not sure how practical it is in the real world though. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Except engineers are expected to and do use exactly that kind of repetition, in cases where you have ... airplane falls out of sky; cars running into each other on the street, at least some types of combat damage, etc. Yes, I get that. The lack of that, when you do have cases of "same thing with same gun happens to multiple people" does not mean you don't have repetition, and that shouldn't function as a magic phrase to hide behind that makes it where "nothing happening here, nothing happening, please disperse." People have to fix "I can't make that happen again" problems pretty routinely in life. They do suck to deal with. I genuinely don't have a dog in this fight, I don't own and never have owned any of sig's products and I'm pretty sure I don't know anyone who does. Just right now I am at "wow, that's a crappy design" and "these guys (sig) are acting all wrong." Bold: That's the problem though, we don't know for certain that the same thing is happening. We might suspect that the same thing is happening (and it might actually be) but we don't know for certain. We're currently relying on shitty quality video and/or a persons statement about what happened. It's possible the person doesn't know exactly what happened, like a draw string got in the holster but wasn't in the holster after the uncommanded discharge. It's possible that some of the reports (at least with no video) are a complete fabrication by the person who might lose their job for finger fucking their gun.....or someone just looking for a payday. It's also possible that 100% of the reports are exactly as described and their is a mechanical problem with the gun. The point is, we don't know that the conditions between all the different reports are the same, so we can't assume that they are. I mostly agree with you, where there is smoke there is probably fire. I'm just looking at it from a more technical perspective (sometimes the engineering brain doesn't turn off ) and I'm trying to separate the "what we think we know" vs "what we actually know". They are often very different things when the dust settles.I also agree that the engineers at Sig should have put together analysis data on these reports, looking at part tolerances vs received parts and modeling any possible combination of tolerance stack ups that could possibly result in an uncommanded discharge. If you have accurate 3D models, it's not that hard to do....I've done it more times than I can count (not firearm related). I've said it in other threads but I'll repeat it here. If there is a mechanical issue in the gun, I hope it's found and Sig's feet are held to the fire on it....but without real technical data that is repeatable (engineering speak) I'm not ready to grab my pitchfork and march to their office. That's not how safety decision making practice works. if there is trend data showing something is having a higher rate of safety failures, it's not a requirement to prove exactly why with 100% certainty. in fact, the opposite - it has to be proven to that level of certainty that it IS safe. to date, the failure rate appears to remain above baseline, and that video show ssufficient explanation as to why, to conclude it is not for sure 100% as -safe as all other baseline products. No way would I select that product for a large departmental contract, nor personal use, unless there was some other compelling reason. to which the removable trigger pack is very much not a compelling reason. (that would be the component part that engages the slides cocked firing pin and engages the retention systems on that spring tensioned firing pin. A component that isn't permanently embedded into the frame, and so potentially may have play in the frame. so there's that). For police departments, the modularity of the 320 isn't generally a compelling reason. For the Army, it was. For the home builder, being able to form a rather thin sheet of metal into a rectangular chassis, and order everything else off the internet is a pretty big deal. Of course, now w/ the Gluger, you can do that w/ Glock and Magpul parts - and we've been able to do it w/ the Ruger American, KelTec P32 & P3AT/Ruger LCP, the Beretta chassis pistol, & the Steyr. I thought it might be compelling to people in states that have stricter pistol laws....having 1 "gun" with the trigger pack that you could drop into any number of "not gun" frames. Sort of like having 1 AR lower with 5 different uppers to switch between depending on what you wanted to do. Not sure how practical it is in the real world though. Only in states where you can only put a single pistol on your carry permit, like NYC, IIRC. |
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Quoted: For police departments, the modularity of the 320 isn't generally a compelling reason. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Except engineers are expected to and do use exactly that kind of repetition, in cases where you have ... airplane falls out of sky; cars running into each other on the street, at least some types of combat damage, etc. Yes, I get that. The lack of that, when you do have cases of "same thing with same gun happens to multiple people" does not mean you don't have repetition, and that shouldn't function as a magic phrase to hide behind that makes it where "nothing happening here, nothing happening, please disperse." People have to fix "I can't make that happen again" problems pretty routinely in life. They do suck to deal with. I genuinely don't have a dog in this fight, I don't own and never have owned any of sig's products and I'm pretty sure I don't know anyone who does. Just right now I am at "wow, that's a crappy design" and "these guys (sig) are acting all wrong." Bold: That's the problem though, we don't know for certain that the same thing is happening. We might suspect that the same thing is happening (and it might actually be) but we don't know for certain. We're currently relying on shitty quality video and/or a persons statement about what happened. It's possible the person doesn't know exactly what happened, like a draw string got in the holster but wasn't in the holster after the uncommanded discharge. It's possible that some of the reports (at least with no video) are a complete fabrication by the person who might lose their job for finger fucking their gun.....or someone just looking for a payday. It's also possible that 100% of the reports are exactly as described and their is a mechanical problem with the gun. The point is, we don't know that the conditions between all the different reports are the same, so we can't assume that they are. I mostly agree with you, where there is smoke there is probably fire. I'm just looking at it from a more technical perspective (sometimes the engineering brain doesn't turn off ) and I'm trying to separate the "what we think we know" vs "what we actually know". They are often very different things when the dust settles.I also agree that the engineers at Sig should have put together analysis data on these reports, looking at part tolerances vs received parts and modeling any possible combination of tolerance stack ups that could possibly result in an uncommanded discharge. If you have accurate 3D models, it's not that hard to do....I've done it more times than I can count (not firearm related). I've said it in other threads but I'll repeat it here. If there is a mechanical issue in the gun, I hope it's found and Sig's feet are held to the fire on it....but without real technical data that is repeatable (engineering speak) I'm not ready to grab my pitchfork and march to their office. That's not how safety decision making practice works. if there is trend data showing something is having a higher rate of safety failures, it's not a requirement to prove exactly why with 100% certainty. in fact, the opposite - it has to be proven to that level of certainty that it IS safe. to date, the failure rate appears to remain above baseline, and that video show ssufficient explanation as to why, to conclude it is not for sure 100% as -safe as all other baseline products. No way would I select that product for a large departmental contract, nor personal use, unless there was some other compelling reason. to which the removable trigger pack is very much not a compelling reason. (that would be the component part that engages the slides cocked firing pin and engages the retention systems on that spring tensioned firing pin. A component that isn't permanently embedded into the frame, and so potentially may have play in the frame. so there's that). For police departments, the modularity of the 320 isn't generally a compelling reason. The modularity in length of grip I don’t see as a benefit for LE. The vastly different grip shapes angles and circumferences I believe is a benefit for an agency looking at saying we only allow one model of gun for duty use. |
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Quoted: Quoted: It really was a huge bed-shitting on their part. Anyone who thought anything good would come from this(at least for Sig) is a monumental idiot. https://media1.tenor.com/m/IUCSurVCDPsAAAAd/bill-clinton-relations.gif That meme is kind of ironic. Sig has been sued for not stopping sexual harrasment of several employees. And not just in the US. |
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Quoted: AND NOW FOR SOMETHING ENTIRELY DIFFERENT... It may not have been Safariland. Safariland LE holsters. There have been some things I have stumbled on where it has been observed that the Safariland holsters have a gap due to weapon light holsters design and the "narrow" P320 trigger guard that makes it possible "foreign objects" can get into the holster. Such things as shirt tails, jacket drawstrings, etc. One case (that I cannot provide a link) where a School Resource Officer had a kid walk up and put their finger in that holster gap and the weapon discharged. (No one was injured.) Additionally, at Shot Show 2025 Safariland had a new LE holster that had a soft flexible edging at the holster what closed that area which was designed to prevent "foreign objects" from being dragged into the holster when holstering the pistol. So... this is beyond "it fires uncommanded" issue, which may or may not been corrected with the "voluntary upgrade" and it only has to do with the "I did not touch the pistol but it went bang"... I would say it would have prevented the school student from being to put their finger in the SRO's holster. It was Classic Firearms Shot Show coverage, interview by Erdal Kaya. I can't find it... maybe the Blade-Tech Valor Duty Holster It happened to the Police Chief of Bordentown, NJ. a few years ago at a School. Since then he was fired for other reasons and Safariland makes holsters without the gap now. I'm wearing one right now. |
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Quoted: I would not carry a pistol with no manual or trigger safety. Quoted: Quoted: AND NOW FOR SOMETHING ENTIRELY DIFFERENT... It may not have been Safariland. Safariland LE holsters. There have been some things I have stumbled on where it has been observed that the Safariland holsters have a gap due to weapon light holsters design and the "narrow" P320 trigger guard that makes it possible "foreign objects" can get into the holster. Such things as shirt tails, jacket drawstrings, etc. One case (that I cannot provide a link) where a School Resource Officer had a kid walk up and put their finger in that holster gap and the weapon discharged. (No one was injured.) Additionally, at Shot Show 2025 Safariland had a new LE holster that had a soft flexible edging at the holster what closed that area which was designed to prevent "foreign objects" from being dragged into the holster when holstering the pistol. So... this is beyond "it fires uncommanded" issue, which may or may not been corrected with the "voluntary upgrade" and it only has to do with the "I did not touch the pistol but it went bang"... I would say it would have prevented the school student from being to put their finger in the SRO's holster. It was Classic Firearms Shot Show coverage, interview by Erdal Kaya. I would not carry a pistol with no manual or trigger safety. Some of the ones going off have manual safeties. |
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Quoted: Some of the ones going off have manual safeties. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: AND NOW FOR SOMETHING ENTIRELY DIFFERENT... It may not have been Safariland. Safariland LE holsters. There have been some things I have stumbled on where it has been observed that the Safariland holsters have a gap due to weapon light holsters design and the "narrow" P320 trigger guard that makes it possible "foreign objects" can get into the holster. Such things as shirt tails, jacket drawstrings, etc. One case (that I cannot provide a link) where a School Resource Officer had a kid walk up and put their finger in that holster gap and the weapon discharged. (No one was injured.) Additionally, at Shot Show 2025 Safariland had a new LE holster that had a soft flexible edging at the holster what closed that area which was designed to prevent "foreign objects" from being dragged into the holster when holstering the pistol. So... this is beyond "it fires uncommanded" issue, which may or may not been corrected with the "voluntary upgrade" and it only has to do with the "I did not touch the pistol but it went bang"... I would say it would have prevented the school student from being to put their finger in the SRO's holster. It was Classic Firearms Shot Show coverage, interview by Erdal Kaya. I would not carry a pistol with no manual or trigger safety. Some of the ones going off have manual safeties. I’m not familiar with all branches, but the USAF carry configuration for the M18 is a round in the chamber, safety off. Do the Army/USMC carry safety on? |
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Quoted: No it wasn't. The MHS requirements never called for an FCU. They wanted adjustable grip size, a railed dustcover, and the option to mount optics. All of the submissions met those requirements. Quoted: Quoted: For police departments, the modularity of the 320 isn't generally a compelling reason. For the Army, it was. This. Backstraps met the request |
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Quoted: I’m not familiar with all branches, but the USAF carry configuration for the M18 is a round in the chamber, safety off. Do the Army/USMC carry safety on? Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: AND NOW FOR SOMETHING ENTIRELY DIFFERENT... It may not have been Safariland. Safariland LE holsters. There have been some things I have stumbled on where it has been observed that the Safariland holsters have a gap due to weapon light holsters design and the "narrow" P320 trigger guard that makes it possible "foreign objects" can get into the holster. Such things as shirt tails, jacket drawstrings, etc. One case (that I cannot provide a link) where a School Resource Officer had a kid walk up and put their finger in that holster gap and the weapon discharged. (No one was injured.) Additionally, at Shot Show 2025 Safariland had a new LE holster that had a soft flexible edging at the holster what closed that area which was designed to prevent "foreign objects" from being dragged into the holster when holstering the pistol. So... this is beyond "it fires uncommanded" issue, which may or may not been corrected with the "voluntary upgrade" and it only has to do with the "I did not touch the pistol but it went bang"... I would say it would have prevented the school student from being to put their finger in the SRO's holster. It was Classic Firearms Shot Show coverage, interview by Erdal Kaya. I would not carry a pistol with no manual or trigger safety. Some of the ones going off have manual safeties. I’m not familiar with all branches, but the USAF carry configuration for the M18 is a round in the chamber, safety off. Do the Army/USMC carry safety on? Can you cite the policy? |
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Quoted: The AR-15 is not striker-fired with a fully tensioned firing pin 100% of the time, nor is it daily carried with a round chambered. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: You are saying that the parts are so wildly out of spec that it's impossible to replicate ? How about same guns that "went off"? Those should easily be replicatable. Once again, I'm not here defending the P320 or Sig. I'm trying to get you guys to take a rational and intelligent look at the few incidents. If it comes out that Sig made a clunker, I'll call a dud a dud. Sig Sauer Testing In October 2021, Sig Sauer had vibration testing performed, nearly a year after the subject incident. This has been the only testing documentation produced by Sig Sauer in any of the litigation cases and took place approximately seven years after the P320 was introduced. Sig Sauer did not make anyone outside of Sig Sauer aware of the testing so appropriate representatives could be present. The testing was performed on ten new firearms. comprised of different P320 models and included pre- and post-upgrade designs. The Sig Sauer test request dated September 2, 2021, states that the "Anticipated Malfunction: Loosening of components, Potential sear disengagement, wear, etc.". This test request, as well as the test report, both state that video documentation of each test is to be obtained, but no videos have been produced. The first tests performed were the vibration tests, which included sinusoidal vibration at various frequencies, and shock (jolt) testing. While the summary report from the testing facility states that no primers were struck, there were at least three tests that "light strikes" were identified from the photographs in the report. Since not all test iteration photographs clearly showed the primer cartridges, there could have been more. Also, these are referred to as "light strikes" in this report, but it is possible the primer was ignited and not noted in the summary report. Examples of photographs showing the "light strikes" are shown in Figure 19. The firing pin contacted the primer in at least 3 of 10 pistols tested during Sigs vibe test. This happens every time you load a round in a standard AR15. in and of itself it tells us nothing. not protecting sig just pointing it out. The AR-15 is not striker-fired with a fully tensioned firing pin 100% of the time, nor is it daily carried with a round chambered. Never said I was i was commenting on the primer marks |
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Quoted: Can you cite the policy? Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: AND NOW FOR SOMETHING ENTIRELY DIFFERENT... It may not have been Safariland. Safariland LE holsters. There have been some things I have stumbled on where it has been observed that the Safariland holsters have a gap due to weapon light holsters design and the "narrow" P320 trigger guard that makes it possible "foreign objects" can get into the holster. Such things as shirt tails, jacket drawstrings, etc. One case (that I cannot provide a link) where a School Resource Officer had a kid walk up and put their finger in that holster gap and the weapon discharged. (No one was injured.) Additionally, at Shot Show 2025 Safariland had a new LE holster that had a soft flexible edging at the holster what closed that area which was designed to prevent "foreign objects" from being dragged into the holster when holstering the pistol. So... this is beyond "it fires uncommanded" issue, which may or may not been corrected with the "voluntary upgrade" and it only has to do with the "I did not touch the pistol but it went bang"... I would say it would have prevented the school student from being to put their finger in the SRO's holster. It was Classic Firearms Shot Show coverage, interview by Erdal Kaya. I would not carry a pistol with no manual or trigger safety. Some of the ones going off have manual safeties. I’m not familiar with all branches, but the USAF carry configuration for the M18 is a round in the chamber, safety off. Do the Army/USMC carry safety on? Can you cite the policy? The USAF policy? DAFMAN 31-129, Chapter 9 Read 9.3.5: Attached File https://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/af_a4/publication/afman31-129/afman31-129.pdf |
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Just got an email from Bruce Gray, GRAYGUNS, seems they're going in on supporting the P320. " From: Bruce Gray Sent: Monday, March 10, 2025 12:36:13 PM Subject: A Personal Message from Bruce Gray and the Entire Grayguns Team ? A Personal Message from Bruce Gray and the Entire Grayguns Team March 10, 2025 - Reedsport, OR Our Responsibility to You Every firearm that leaves our shop is one we stand behind—not just in craftsmanship, but in purpose. Lately, we’ve seen renewed discussion surrounding the SIG Sauer P320 platform, and we understand why. When questions arise about a defensive or competitive firearm, the people who rely on it deserve answers—not accusations and dismissals. At Grayguns, we operate with the full understanding that the quality of our work could be the difference between a routine day and a tragedy—between a casual goodbye in the morning and a family left waiting for someone who never comes home. It could be the difference between a child growing up with bedtime stories from their parent or only memories. The difference between a police officer finishing their shift and walking through their front door, or a department notifying a family that their loved one is gone. The difference between a protector standing strong in the face of danger or being let down by their equipment in the moment they need it most. The difference between a fun day at the range filled with laughter and competition, or a moment no one ever forgets for all the wrong reasons. What we do makes a difference. We do not take this responsibility lightly. Every cut we make, every part we produce, every firearm we work on carries the weight of real lives, real families, and real people who trust us to get it right. That is what drives us. That is why we do what we do—not just to make firearms better, but to make sure that no matter the context, the people who rely on them make it home. What We’ve Found, and What We’re Still Testing At Grayguns, we don’t take anything for granted. We test, we push, and we go beyond normal use conditions to find out what a firearm is truly capable of. Over the years, in controlled environments, we have deliberately attempted to compromise the mechanical safeties of the P320, looking for ways an unintended discharge could occur. Despite those efforts, we have never been able to induce a discharge without the trigger being actuated. That does not mean people are wrong to be asking questions. The fact that we have not been able to make it happen does not change the reality that people believe it’s happening. We understand that too, and because of that, we are going to continue to explore every scenario, no matter how implausible it may seem. If there is a way for a failure to occur, we want to find it, understand it, and make sure the people who depend on this firearm have the information they need. Please know that at this moment, every single person at Grayguns still has faith that a SIG P320 cannot fire without the trigger being acted on by something. That confidence is built on years of testing, evaluation, and our own firsthand experience with the platform. A New Standard of Transparency No matter how small the job, every firearm that enters our shop undergoes an exhaustive mechanical inspection before it makes it back into a customer’s hands. We’ve always done this, but moving forward, we will be making that process more visible. We know that a simple “inspection performed” line item on a work order doesn’t tell you enough. That’s why we are developing clearer documentation that details exactly what has been inspected before a firearm leaves our shop. Our customers deserve to know their firearm has been carefully evaluated by someone who cares and knows what’s at stake. This isn’t a response to pressure. It’s a commitment to what we already believe: that peace of mind isn’t something you should have to ask for—it should be built into the work we do. A Message to Those Who Serve and Protect To every law enforcement officer, military professional, and armed citizen who carries a firearm in defense of others: we see you, we respect you, and we recognize the weight of responsibility you bear. Thank you. And to everyone who has placed their trust in us, no matter which group you belong to. Just know that we do not take you, or your trust, for granted. With gratitude and humility, Bruce Gray Founder, Grayguns, Inc. On behalf of the entire Grayguns team No longer want to receive these emails? Unsubscribe. Grayguns Inc. PO Box 466 Reedsport, OR 97467" I feel more will start to choose sides. |
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Quoted: I’m not familiar with all branches, but the USAF carry configuration for the M18 is a round in the chamber, safety off. Do the Army/USMC carry safety on? Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: AND NOW FOR SOMETHING ENTIRELY DIFFERENT... It may not have been Safariland. Safariland LE holsters. There have been some things I have stumbled on where it has been observed that the Safariland holsters have a gap due to weapon light holsters design and the "narrow" P320 trigger guard that makes it possible "foreign objects" can get into the holster. Such things as shirt tails, jacket drawstrings, etc. One case (that I cannot provide a link) where a School Resource Officer had a kid walk up and put their finger in that holster gap and the weapon discharged. (No one was injured.) Additionally, at Shot Show 2025 Safariland had a new LE holster that had a soft flexible edging at the holster what closed that area which was designed to prevent "foreign objects" from being dragged into the holster when holstering the pistol. So... this is beyond "it fires uncommanded" issue, which may or may not been corrected with the "voluntary upgrade" and it only has to do with the "I did not touch the pistol but it went bang"... I would say it would have prevented the school student from being to put their finger in the SRO's holster. It was Classic Firearms Shot Show coverage, interview by Erdal Kaya. I would not carry a pistol with no manual or trigger safety. Some of the ones going off have manual safeties. I’m not familiar with all branches, but the USAF carry configuration for the M18 is a round in the chamber, safety off. Do the Army/USMC carry safety on? We always did when I was in. |
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Quoted: Bold: That's the problem though, we don't know for certain that the same thing is happening. Quoted: Quoted: Except engineers are expected to and do use exactly that kind of repetition, in cases where you have ... airplane falls out of sky; cars running into each other on the street, at least some types of combat damage, etc. Yes, I get that. The lack of that, when you do have cases of "same thing with same gun happens to multiple people" does not mean you don't have repetition, and that shouldn't function as a magic phrase to hide behind that makes it where "nothing happening here, nothing happening, please disperse." People have to fix "I can't make that happen again" problems pretty routinely in life. They do suck to deal with. I genuinely don't have a dog in this fight, I don't own and never have owned any of sig's products and I'm pretty sure I don't know anyone who does. Just right now I am at "wow, that's a crappy design" and "these guys (sig) are acting all wrong." I think I can clear up a lot of this quickly. When I say "the same thing" I mean "unintended discharges that do not appear to be due to booger hook or other things on trigger." The gordian knot part is that this same thing happening to multiple people could be due to multiple different things and multiple different mechanical reasons. It sticks out all the more because I don't see people discussing the same sort of things happening with other pistols. eta: is it how we're handlign them? Is it mechanical things in the gun? Do the revisions of the mechanics and QC on the gun making and design cause it? Is it some combination? |