[ARCHIVED THREAD] - SIG “ The P320. It ends today.” (Page 123 of 142)
It ends today, for Bloomsburg Police Department. They're replacing the P320. ![]() Bloomsburg Police Department to get new guns following Sig Sauer P320 safety concerns |
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From the airman thread: Quoted: Any given P320 is going to have Z sear engagement. Whether that's 0.05", 0.02", doesn't matter. But it's some number. Any given P320 is going to be able to reduce sear engagement by Y via up/down movement of the slide. Whether that's 0.01, 0.005", doesn't matter. But it's some number. SOME P320's have been seen to have dimensional variance, surface issues, or wear in the sear surfaces. FBI BRF's report showed a "ledge" in the striker hook. USAF is currently looking for "burrs or spurs" on these surfaces. There's a possibility for the sear surfaces to get stuck not fully engaged, reducing the sear engagement by X. Whether that reduces sear engagement by 0.02", 0.03", 0.005", doesn't matter. But it's some number. ALL P320's are vulnerable to fouling reducing the sear engagement by W. Because of a combination of design decisions, there's a ramp on the sear under the striker hook and parts of the frame that form a "pocket" where debris can either enter or fouling from the gun can accumulate and reduce sear engagement. Whether that's 0.05", 0.01", or 0.000", doesn't matter. But it's some number. If W + X + Y >= Z, then the sear lets go of the striker without the trigger needing to move at all. Add to that the problematic design of the striker safety (see glklvr's post about Sig's own testing) and you've got a gun that can, under the right circumstances, go off on it's own in a holster. https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/Sig-M18-might-have-just-killed-an-Airman/5-2805777/?r=-1&page=24&anc=114384112#i114384112 |
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I will say when I had an M18, the slide moved a lot but the sear was never maxed out on upward travel when the gun was cocked. It would take some kind of lazy sear spring situation in my view, or a seriously out of spec sear engagement angle, for slippage to occur. Sold the M18 btw. Not worth it. |
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Quoted: Possibly, but the manager is a gun guy, wouldn't shock me if he had an account here. Again, it could be 100% bullshit too. Quoted: Quoted: I'm going w/ they're calling SIG and confirming if the pistol is drop-safe or not. They two people you talked to likely think they're checking if it's holster safe, but I'd bet a P320 frame they're misinformed. Possibly, but the manager is a gun guy, wouldn't shock me if he had an account here. Again, it could be 100% bullshit too. Oh, I think he thinks he's selling a holster pop safe pistol. I think the SIG SN check line got mischaracterized at corporate, and all the info they're getting is if it's drop safe. Not surprising given the misinformation out there. Ran into folks @ the gun show this weekend that thought that 320s would go off if you dropped em. No, it's really more a very seldom occurring shake awake issue... |
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Quoted: Oh, I think he thinks he's selling a holster pop safe pistol. I think the SIG SN check line got mischaracterized at corporate, and all the info they're getting is if it's drop safe. Not surprising given the misinformation out there. Ran into folks @ the gun show this weekend that thought that 320s would go off if you dropped em. No, it's really more a very seldom occurring shake awake issue... That does sound logical. If Sig had released a serial number range of effected pistols I suspect it wouldn't be first released in Keyser WV
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Very interesting. I remember seeing links from 2023 about this with absolute crickets since. I guess they were doing something behind the scenes. |
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The concept originated during a collaborative project involving engineer Brian McDonald, who is listed as the inventor. While Mr. McDonald formerly held a position at Sig Sauer®, he has not been employed by the company for several years and has recently operated independently as a consultant across multiple organizations. The project in question was not affiliated with, nor did it include input from, Sig Sauer® or any of its affiliates. “This patent application represents AST’s solution to further enhance the safety of the P320® platform,” said Joe Salvador, Partner and Engineer at Angled Spade Technologies. “Our solution physically blocks the sear’s movement when the manual safety is engaged. something that, to date, has not been a feature of the P320® and its variants.” In 2023, shortly after filing the provisional patent, Angled Spade Technologies extended a professional courtesy to Sig Sauer® by offering them the first right of refusal on the safety-enhancing design. Sig Sauer® declined to engage at that time. AST then proceeded with the full patent process, and the applications publication is a milestone on that path. ![]() But ... WHY? Why would they not accept it? |
![]() I was wrong about the SIG P320…It’s the Best ?? |
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In 2023, shortly after filing the provisional patent, Angled Spade Technologies extended a professional courtesy to Sig Sauer® by offering them the first right of refusal on the safety-enhancing design. Sig Sauer® declined to engage at that time. |
![]() Tism Tangent Ep.4: The Failure of the M17 Program |
SIG should be forced to do a buyback for all of these. Outside the older metal framed DA/SA models, their products are overhyped and overpriced anyways. Never understood the brand obsession. Prob the same demographic buying Dodge trucks thinking they're reliable
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Quoted: The concept originated during a collaborative project involving engineer Brian McDonald, who is listed as the inventor. While Mr. McDonald formerly held a position at Sig Sauer®, he has not been employed by the company for several years and has recently operated independently as a consultant across multiple organizations. The project in question was not affiliated with, nor did it include input from, Sig Sauer® or any of its affiliates. “This patent application represents AST’s solution to further enhance the safety of the P320® platform,” said Joe Salvador, Partner and Engineer at Angled Spade Technologies. “Our solution physically blocks the sear’s movement when the manual safety is engaged. something that, to date, has not been a feature of the P320® and its variants.” In 2023, shortly after filing the provisional patent, Angled Spade Technologies extended a professional courtesy to Sig Sauer® by offering them the first right of refusal on the safety-enhancing design. Sig Sauer® declined to engage at that time. AST then proceeded with the full patent process, and the applications publication is a milestone on that path. ![]() But ... WHY? Why would they not accept it? They made a deliberate decision not to lock the sear with the manual safety when they designed the pistol for a couple of reasons. First, they didn't think they needed to. They figured their mechanism was safe enough even without a manual safety, so it didn't really matter if their manual safety locked the sear or not. Second, locking the sear will prevent the user from retracting the slide if the striker has dropped and could even cause damage if you try to force the slide. Keeping the safety on while loading the pistol is desirable for obvious reasons, and a safety that could cause damage if operated improperly is obviously undesirable. |
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Quoted: SIG should be forced to do a buyback for all of these. Outside the older metal framed DA/SA models, their products are overhyped and overpriced anyways. Never understood the brand obsession. Prob the same demographic buying Dodge trucks thinking they're reliable ![]() A forced buyback would likely bankrupt Sig, especially if such an action were to occur. Right now there are allegedly over a hundred different incidents where someone is claiming the gun failed and they are now being represented by legal counsel (I'm assuming they plan to sue). Any combined monetary damages from those potential lawsuits if information was to come to light that showed Sig was negligent and the cost of buybacks for MILLIONS of guns would likely far exceed the monetary reserves Sig has in place. |
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Once again proving the media is stupid. The MSP began the transition to these guns at least two years ago. The incident that prompted the FBI report occurred in 2024, and involved an officer that has already been issued the gun. All the troopers I've seen recently have had the P320. That's why I felt the wording in Sig's email was so misleading. They intentionally made it sound like the MSP had the study done, and was so impressed with the results that they were "now confidently issuing the P320." No. They're in the middle of a contract, and the study didn't prove anything that would negate the contract, so they HAVE to keep issuing them. And I didn't see anywhere in the report about the MSP's confidence in there, one way or the other. |
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Quoted: Once again proving the media is stupid. The MSP began the transition to these guns at least two years ago. The incident that prompted the FBI report occurred in 2024, and involved an officer that has already been issued the gun. All the troopers I've seen recently have had the P320. That's why I felt the wording in Sig's email was so misleading. They intentionally made it sound like the MSP had the study done, and was so impressed with the results that they were "now confidently issuing the P320." No. They're in the middle of a contract, and the study didn't prove anything that would negate the contract, so they HAVE to keep issuing them. And I didn't see anywhere in the report about the MSP's confidence in there, one way or the other. I don't believe for a second that the contract requires them to keep issuing pistols. Edit: found the contract through Google. It doesn't require them to keep issuing Sigs. https://www.michigan.gov/dtmb/-/media/Project/Websites/dtmb/Procurement/Contracts/MiDEAL/001/230000001470.pdf
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This guy is pretty over the top, but the reports he's reading from are pretty spicy. |
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Quoted: More like dumber than a bag of hammers. Quoted: Quoted: I'm going w/ they're calling SIG and confirming if the pistol is drop-safe or not. They two people you talked to likely think they're checking if it's holster safe, but I'd bet a P320 frame they're misinformed. More like dumber than a bag of hammers. SIG has never said the 320 is not drop safe. That's why it's a voluntary upgrade. |
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Quoted: SIG has never said the 320 is not drop safe. That's why it's a voluntary upgrade. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I'm going w/ they're calling SIG and confirming if the pistol is drop-safe or not. They two people you talked to likely think they're checking if it's holster safe, but I'd bet a P320 frame they're misinformed. More like dumber than a bag of hammers. SIG has never said the 320 is not drop safe. That's why it's a voluntary upgrade. Which in and of itself is insane. The first (and only) handgun without a manual safety that isn’t drop safe.
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Quoted: SIG has never said the 320 is not drop safe. That's why it's a voluntary upgrade. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I'm going w/ they're calling SIG and confirming if the pistol is drop-safe or not. They two people you talked to likely think they're checking if it's holster safe, but I'd bet a P320 frame they're misinformed. More like dumber than a bag of hammers. SIG has never said the 320 is not drop safe. That's why it's a voluntary upgrade. My comment (and backbencher) isn't to whether the 320 is drop safe, but to a gun shop purporting to have been given a test by Sig and a number to call: Quoted: ....according to my FFL, Sig knows there's a problem, and have given them the test on what to look for... .....Their corporate FFL auditor was there inspecting the 4473s and the bound book, and she piped in that they also contact Sig before buying and give them the serial number, and they tell them if its in a range of possible defective? |
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That is a deeply stupid video. Nearly everything he says has some sort of error, ranging in severity from minor to holy shit. One error that comes up over and over is his failure to understand the ammo portion of MHS. He talks about how stupid it is that ammo licensing was a factor because we're just going to use NATO ball anyway, says that all the pistols in MHS were tested with 124gr NATO ball, bitches about the Army stopping testing on the Sig with NATO ball, and says that the pistol is being used today with standard NATO ball. All of that is completely wrong. 0 rounds of standard 124gr NATO ball were fired through any pistol during MHS testing, and standard NATO ball is not the current issued round, for practice or combat. MHS entries were required to include licensing for 2 new kinds of ammo: a new ball round with greater lethality than NATO ball, and a 'special purpose' round with even greater lethality. The intent was to use the new ball round primarily for training, while the special purpose round would be the primary issued round for combat and force protection. The entrants had complete freedom to choose these new rounds: they could be of any design, in any caliber. The Army specified up front that testing would focus on the special purpose round, because that was the round intended to be used in combat. Licensing rights were important because the Army wanted to be able to produce these new rounds without paying royalties forever. He fundamentally does not understand what he's talking about. |
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Their funeral?
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Quoted: That is a deeply stupid video. Nearly everything he says has some sort of error, ranging in severity from minor to holy shit. One error that comes up over and over is his failure to understand the ammo portion of MHS. He talks about how stupid it is that ammo licensing was a factor because we're just going to use NATO ball anyway, says that all the pistols in MHS were tested with 124gr NATO ball, bitches about the Army stopping testing on the Sig with NATO ball, and says that the pistol is being used today with standard NATO ball. All of that is completely wrong. 0 rounds of standard 124gr NATO ball were fired through any pistol during MHS testing, and standard NATO ball is not the current issued round, for practice or combat. MHS entries were required to include licensing for 2 new kinds of ammo: a new ball round with greater lethality than NATO ball, and a 'special purpose' round with even greater lethality. The intent was to use the new ball round primarily for training, while the special purpose round would be the primary issued round for combat and force protection. The entrants had complete freedom to choose these new rounds: they could be of any design, in any caliber. The Army specified up front that testing would focus on the special purpose round, because that was the round intended to be used in combat. Licensing rights were important because the Army wanted to be able to produce these new rounds without paying royalties forever. He fundamentally does not understand what he's talking about. Quoted: That is a deeply stupid video. Nearly everything he says has some sort of error, ranging in severity from minor to holy shit. One error that comes up over and over is his failure to understand the ammo portion of MHS. He talks about how stupid it is that ammo licensing was a factor because we're just going to use NATO ball anyway, says that all the pistols in MHS were tested with 124gr NATO ball, bitches about the Army stopping testing on the Sig with NATO ball, and says that the pistol is being used today with standard NATO ball. All of that is completely wrong. 0 rounds of standard 124gr NATO ball were fired through any pistol during MHS testing, and standard NATO ball is not the current issued round, for practice or combat. MHS entries were required to include licensing for 2 new kinds of ammo: a new ball round with greater lethality than NATO ball, and a 'special purpose' round with even greater lethality. The intent was to use the new ball round primarily for training, while the special purpose round would be the primary issued round for combat and force protection. The entrants had complete freedom to choose these new rounds: they could be of any design, in any caliber. The Army specified up front that testing would focus on the special purpose round, because that was the round intended to be used in combat. Licensing rights were important because the Army wanted to be able to produce these new rounds without paying royalties forever. He fundamentally does not understand what he's talking about. seems you know more about it than me. that aside, there's still a lot of good info in that video, and a lot of guys were crying foul when the trial was done. at the end of the day, the contract went to the lowest bidder, and that was for an inferior product. |
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Quoted: seems you know more about it than me. that aside, there's still a lot of good info in that video, and a lot of guys were crying foul when the trial was done. at the end of the day, the contract went to the lowest bidder, and that was for an inferior product. I can't agree that there's any good info in the video. Like I said, just about everything he said had some sort of error. It is definitely true that Sig won almost entirely due to price though. |
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Quoted: They made a deliberate decision not to lock the sear with the manual safety when they designed the pistol for a couple of reasons. First, they didn't think they needed to. They figured their mechanism was safe enough even without a manual safety, so it didn't really matter if their manual safety locked the sear or not. Second, locking the sear will prevent the user from retracting the slide if the striker has dropped and could even cause damage if you try to force the slide. Keeping the safety on while loading the pistol is desirable for obvious reasons, and a safety that could cause damage if operated improperly is obviously undesirable. Quoted: Quoted: The concept originated during a collaborative project involving engineer Brian McDonald, who is listed as the inventor. While Mr. McDonald formerly held a position at Sig Sauer®, he has not been employed by the company for several years and has recently operated independently as a consultant across multiple organizations. The project in question was not affiliated with, nor did it include input from, Sig Sauer® or any of its affiliates. “This patent application represents AST’s solution to further enhance the safety of the P320® platform,” said Joe Salvador, Partner and Engineer at Angled Spade Technologies. “Our solution physically blocks the sear’s movement when the manual safety is engaged. something that, to date, has not been a feature of the P320® and its variants.” In 2023, shortly after filing the provisional patent, Angled Spade Technologies extended a professional courtesy to Sig Sauer® by offering them the first right of refusal on the safety-enhancing design. Sig Sauer® declined to engage at that time. AST then proceeded with the full patent process, and the applications publication is a milestone on that path. ![]() But ... WHY? Why would they not accept it? They made a deliberate decision not to lock the sear with the manual safety when they designed the pistol for a couple of reasons. First, they didn't think they needed to. They figured their mechanism was safe enough even without a manual safety, so it didn't really matter if their manual safety locked the sear or not. Second, locking the sear will prevent the user from retracting the slide if the striker has dropped and could even cause damage if you try to force the slide. Keeping the safety on while loading the pistol is desirable for obvious reasons, and a safety that could cause damage if operated improperly is obviously undesirable. Except ... this is in 2023, when the rest of this stuff is already in play, so even if what you're talking about is true, that's measured against the situation as it was known to be in '23. |
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Quoted: I can't agree that there's any good info in the video. Like I said, just about everything he said had some sort of error. It is definitely true that Sig won almost entirely due to price though. Quoted: Quoted: seems you know more about it than me. that aside, there's still a lot of good info in that video, and a lot of guys were crying foul when the trial was done. at the end of the day, the contract went to the lowest bidder, and that was for an inferior product. I can't agree that there's any good info in the video. Like I said, just about everything he said had some sort of error. It is definitely true that Sig won almost entirely due to price though. Oh, the information about stoppages and ammo is quite something else and the exclusion of certain ammo is rather something else too. The information about the phases was something else too. |
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Quoted: omg... lol |
From the vid:![]() ------------------- Article talking about it: https://www.twz.com/18047/armys-new-pistols-often-eject-live-rounds-and-dont-work-well-with-regular-bullets More worryingly, the Pentagon’s top testing office said that during further tests, the trigger assemblies in two pistols had splintered apart and this was potentially the result of the drop fix, presenting an entirely new issue. As of September 2017, the recommendation was to “work with the vendor to identify and eliminate cause of variability in the manufacture of the trigger group mechanism.” Testing also revealed that the handguns had a propensity to eject a live round along with the empty cartridge case during normal functioning. There was no indication that this issue caused any malfunctions, such as “stove-piping,” which generally involves empty casing ending up jammed in place, typically sticking up from the ejection port. It is still a significant issue for shooters to be losing live cartridges during routine use, meaning they might run out of ammunition before they expect to or simply waste resources. The Office of the Director of Operational Test and Evaluation’s said that the problem became more pronounced the more rounds evaluators fired through their M17 and M18 pistols. As of September 2017, the Army was still working with Sig Sauer to identify the root cause of the problem, after which they would need to develop another fix. This wasn’t the only ammunition related issue, though. In tests, the M17 and M18 worked just fine with the Army’s new XM1153 “special purpose” cartridge, a hollow point round. They did not function reliably with the companion XM1152, a standard “ball” round with a bullet fully enclosed within a copper jacket. The Army had a requirement for the new pistols to be able to shoot 2,000 rounds straight without a stoppage at least 95 percent of the time on average. The service defined a stoppage as any instance in which the guns stopped functioning normally, but where the user could get the weapon running again without the need for tools or replacement parts. With the XM1153 hollow point, the M17 hit the 95 percent reliability mark, while the M18 managed just slightly better at 96 percent. But when troops loaded up magazines with the XM1152, the results were dismal. The full-size gun had only a 75 percent probability of functioning properly, while the compact version was barely over 60 percent. The report does not say why this might have occurred and it’s not clear what the Army was doing to correct the issue. The problems had appeared during the Product Verification Tests and the service simply opted to conduct operational testing and evaluation with the special purpose cartridge only. This in turn suggests that troops getting the pistols will receive the hollow points as their standard round, a significant change from previous doctrine. Now I'm interested if anyone runs much nato spec ball ammo through their 320s. |
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Quoted: Except ... this is in 2023, when the rest of this stuff is already in play, so even if what you're talking about is true, that's measured against the situation as it was known to be in '23. Quoted: Except ... this is in 2023, when the rest of this stuff is already in play, so even if what you're talking about is true, that's measured against the situation as it was known to be in '23. Even if Sig believed they needed a fix in 2023 (and I don't think thats clear at all), that patent wouldn't have been desirable because a manual safety that damages the gun if it's used wrong is still undesirable. Quoted: Oh, the information about stoppages and ammo is quite something . the exclusion of certain ammo is rather something else too. The information about the phases was something else too. Yeah, he fucked all that stuff up. He said that the Army was supposed to conduct testing in two phases. That's pretty much thebonly thing he got right. He says that during the first part, which was called the PVT, the Sig failed to meet Army standards for reliability. That's wrong in a few different ways. The first part of the test was the BST, not the PVT. During the BST, the Sig met reliability standards. He said the PVT was the low round round bit before the tough, high round count tests and environmental testing. That's the opposite of the truth; the PVT is when durability and environmental testing took place. He says that the Army didn't do the second phase, part H, or maybe they did because there are rumors that Sig did poorly. The second phase, part H, is the PVT. They did it, and he should know they did it because he talked about it. They actually did it twice, because Sig fixed the reliability problems they had the first time. I've already talked about how he doesnt understand what ammo was used, or what ammo was supposed to be used, or why the Army would care more about the special purpose ammo than the ball ammo. It's actually hard to describe how wrong he was because the errors are so dense; you try to talk about one but have to explain 3 more for context. None of this should be interpreted to mean that i think MHS was a good program. I don't. I just want people to think it was a bad program for real reasons, not dumb ones based on misinterpretation. |
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Quoted: Even if Sig believed they needed a fix in 2023 (and I don't think thats clear at all), that patent wouldn't have been desirable because a manual safety that damages the gun if it's used wrong is still undesirable. Yeah, he fucked all that stuff up. He said that the Army was supposed to conduct testing in two phases. That's pretty much thebonly thing he got right. He says that during the first part, which was called the PVT, the Sig failed to meet Army standards for reliability. That's wrong in a few different ways. The first part of the test was the BST, not the PVT. During the BST, the Sig met reliability standards. He said the PVT was the low round round bit before the tough, high round count tests and environmental testing. That's the opposite of the truth; the PVT is when durability and environmental testing took place. He says that the Army didn't do the second phase, part H, or maybe they did because there are rumors that Sig did poorly. The second phase, part H, is the PVT. They did it, and he should know they did it because he talked about it. They actually did it twice, because Sig fixed the reliability problems they had the first time. I've already talked about how he doesnt understand what ammo was used, or what ammo was supposed to be used, or why the Army would care more about the special purpose ammo than the ball ammo. It's actually hard to describe how wrong he was because the errors are so dense; you try to talk about one but have to explain 3 more for context. None of this should be interpreted to mean that i think MHS was a good program. I don't. I just want people to think it was a bad program for real reasons, not dumb ones based on misinterpretation. Quoted: Quoted: Except ... this is in 2023, when the rest of this stuff is already in play, so even if what you're talking about is true, that's measured against the situation as it was known to be in '23. Even if Sig believed they needed a fix in 2023 (and I don't think thats clear at all), that patent wouldn't have been desirable because a manual safety that damages the gun if it's used wrong is still undesirable. Quoted: Oh, the information about stoppages and ammo is quite something . the exclusion of certain ammo is rather something else too. The information about the phases was something else too. Yeah, he fucked all that stuff up. He said that the Army was supposed to conduct testing in two phases. That's pretty much thebonly thing he got right. He says that during the first part, which was called the PVT, the Sig failed to meet Army standards for reliability. That's wrong in a few different ways. The first part of the test was the BST, not the PVT. During the BST, the Sig met reliability standards. He said the PVT was the low round round bit before the tough, high round count tests and environmental testing. That's the opposite of the truth; the PVT is when durability and environmental testing took place. He says that the Army didn't do the second phase, part H, or maybe they did because there are rumors that Sig did poorly. The second phase, part H, is the PVT. They did it, and he should know they did it because he talked about it. They actually did it twice, because Sig fixed the reliability problems they had the first time. I've already talked about how he doesnt understand what ammo was used, or what ammo was supposed to be used, or why the Army would care more about the special purpose ammo than the ball ammo. It's actually hard to describe how wrong he was because the errors are so dense; you try to talk about one but have to explain 3 more for context. None of this should be interpreted to mean that i think MHS was a good program. I don't. I just want people to think it was a bad program for real reasons, not dumb ones based on misinterpretation. There is so much bad information flying around right now it's like we're in Plato's cave and the rabid bats are coming back after feeding. |
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https://www.wearethemighty.com/tactical/why-the-army-didnt-finish-testing-the-sig-sauer-p320/ In 2015, the Army released the Request for Proposals and started testing the 12 submitted pistols the following year. After phase one testing, the SIG Sauer and Glock submissions were the only ones that made it past the down select. Phase two destructive testing began, but was stopped at 12,500 rounds, half of the 25,000-round required service life. Moreover, destructive testing called for the pistols to fire up to 35,000 rounds to test reliability. https://www.gao.gov/products/b-414401
Glock protested the Army’s premature selection of the Sig Sauer submission and asked that testing resume. An investigation by the Government Accountability Office found that “Sig Sauer’s full-sized handgun had a higher stoppage rate than Glock’s handgun, and there may have been other problems with the weapon’s accuracy.” The investigation also noted that the Army redacted the results of Sig’s compact handgun. Sig submitted two handgun frames in three different grip sizes with a swappable trigger unit, while Glock submitted one handgun with interchangeable backstraps to meet the Army’s modularity requirements. In the end, Glock’s protest was denied. “[T]here is no correlating superior performance factor for Glock, as compared to Sig Sauer’s, to support paying that premium. Consequently, I cannot justify paying a price premium of 37% for the Glock submission, even as a second award,” wrote Susan Poling in the GAO report. She did note the investigation uncovered “evaluation errors” by the Army, but could not justify paying more for the Glock. The short of it is that Sig Sauer’s price to the government was so low that the Army felt that it had a good enough pistol at a great price. So, testing was stopped and did not resume. |
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Quoted: I don't believe for a second that the contract requires them to keep issuing pistols. Edit: found the contract through Google. It doesn't require them to keep issuing Sigs. https://www.michigan.gov/dtmb/-/media/Project/Websites/dtmb/Procurement/Contracts/MiDEAL/001/230000001470.pdf https://i.imgur.com/fN3cthC.jpeg Quoted: Quoted: Once again proving the media is stupid. The MSP began the transition to these guns at least two years ago. The incident that prompted the FBI report occurred in 2024, and involved an officer that has already been issued the gun. All the troopers I've seen recently have had the P320. That's why I felt the wording in Sig's email was so misleading. They intentionally made it sound like the MSP had the study done, and was so impressed with the results that they were "now confidently issuing the P320." No. They're in the middle of a contract, and the study didn't prove anything that would negate the contract, so they HAVE to keep issuing them. And I didn't see anywhere in the report about the MSP's confidence in there, one way or the other. I don't believe for a second that the contract requires them to keep issuing pistols. Edit: found the contract through Google. It doesn't require them to keep issuing Sigs. https://www.michigan.gov/dtmb/-/media/Project/Websites/dtmb/Procurement/Contracts/MiDEAL/001/230000001470.pdf https://i.imgur.com/fN3cthC.jpeg I stand corrected on the "issuing" part. Thank you. I've never heard of a state purchasing contract that (1) allowed them to cancel at any time, for any reason, and (2) allowed them to get the same or similar products from other suppliers. I know state workers who can't buy ink pens from Amazon because they HAVE to come from Staples (even though staples is way more expensive), because Staples has the state contract for office supplies. The rest of what I said is valid though. The contract was effective in September 2023. The "issuing" has got to be complete by now. So for Sig to insinuate that the MSP started issuing the guns after the FBI report is misleading, at best. |
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Quoted: I stand corrected on the "issuing" part. Thank you. I've never heard of a state purchasing contract that (1) allowed them to cancel at any time, for any reason, and (2) allowed them to get the same or similar products from other suppliers. I know state workers who can't buy ink pens from Amazon because they HAVE to come from Staples (even though staples is way more expensive), because Staples has the state contract for office supplies. The rest of what I said is valid though. The contract was effective in September 2023. The "issuing" has got to be complete by now. So for Sig to insinuate that the MSP started issuing the guns after the FBI report is misleading, at best. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Once again proving the media is stupid. The MSP began the transition to these guns at least two years ago. The incident that prompted the FBI report occurred in 2024, and involved an officer that has already been issued the gun. All the troopers I've seen recently have had the P320. That's why I felt the wording in Sig's email was so misleading. They intentionally made it sound like the MSP had the study done, and was so impressed with the results that they were "now confidently issuing the P320." No. They're in the middle of a contract, and the study didn't prove anything that would negate the contract, so they HAVE to keep issuing them. And I didn't see anywhere in the report about the MSP's confidence in there, one way or the other. I don't believe for a second that the contract requires them to keep issuing pistols. Edit: found the contract through Google. It doesn't require them to keep issuing Sigs. https://www.michigan.gov/dtmb/-/media/Project/Websites/dtmb/Procurement/Contracts/MiDEAL/001/230000001470.pdf https://i.imgur.com/fN3cthC.jpeg I stand corrected on the "issuing" part. Thank you. I've never heard of a state purchasing contract that (1) allowed them to cancel at any time, for any reason, and (2) allowed them to get the same or similar products from other suppliers. I know state workers who can't buy ink pens from Amazon because they HAVE to come from Staples (even though staples is way more expensive), because Staples has the state contract for office supplies. The rest of what I said is valid though. The contract was effective in September 2023. The "issuing" has got to be complete by now. So for Sig to insinuate that the MSP started issuing the guns after the FBI report is misleading, at best. The FBI report is from 2024.
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Quoted: From the vid: https://i.postimg.cc/h439tNnt/testing-1.png ------------------- Article talking about it: https://www.twz.com/18047/armys-new-pistols-often-eject-live-rounds-and-dont-work-well-with-regular-bullets More worryingly, the Pentagon’s top testing office said that during further tests, the trigger assemblies in two pistols had splintered apart and this was potentially the result of the drop fix, presenting an entirely new issue. As of September 2017, the recommendation was to “work with the vendor to identify and eliminate cause of variability in the manufacture of the trigger group mechanism.” Testing also revealed that the handguns had a propensity to eject a live round along with the empty cartridge case during normal functioning. There was no indication that this issue caused any malfunctions, such as “stove-piping,” which generally involves empty casing ending up jammed in place, typically sticking up from the ejection port. It is still a significant issue for shooters to be losing live cartridges during routine use, meaning they might run out of ammunition before they expect to or simply waste resources. The Office of the Director of Operational Test and Evaluation’s said that the problem became more pronounced the more rounds evaluators fired through their M17 and M18 pistols. As of September 2017, the Army was still working with Sig Sauer to identify the root cause of the problem, after which they would need to develop another fix. This wasn’t the only ammunition related issue, though. In tests, the M17 and M18 worked just fine with the Army’s new XM1153 “special purpose” cartridge, a hollow point round. They did not function reliably with the companion XM1152, a standard “ball” round with a bullet fully enclosed within a copper jacket. The Army had a requirement for the new pistols to be able to shoot 2,000 rounds straight without a stoppage at least 95 percent of the time on average. The service defined a stoppage as any instance in which the guns stopped functioning normally, but where the user could get the weapon running again without the need for tools or replacement parts. With the XM1153 hollow point, the M17 hit the 95 percent reliability mark, while the M18 managed just slightly better at 96 percent. But when troops loaded up magazines with the XM1152, the results were dismal. The full-size gun had only a 75 percent probability of functioning properly, while the compact version was barely over 60 percent. The report does not say why this might have occurred and it’s not clear what the Army was doing to correct the issue. The problems had appeared during the Product Verification Tests and the service simply opted to conduct operational testing and evaluation with the special purpose cartridge only. This in turn suggests that troops getting the pistols will receive the hollow points as their standard round, a significant change from previous doctrine. Now I'm interested if anyone runs much nato spec ball ammo through their 320s. When I put a compensator on my M18, I almost exclusively shot NATO-spec ammo through it. I'd guess between 6k-7k rounds of NATO 124-grain on mine with about 1k of the commercial M1152. No issues. |
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Quoted: https://www.wearethemighty.com/tactical/why-the-army-didnt-finish-testing-the-sig-sauer-p320/ In 2015, the Army released the Request for Proposals and started testing the 12 submitted pistols the following year. After phase one testing, the SIG Sauer and Glock submissions were the only ones that made it past the down select. Phase two destructive testing began, but was stopped at 12,500 rounds, half of the 25,000-round required service life. Moreover, destructive testing called for the pistols to fire up to 35,000 rounds to test reliability. https://www.gao.gov/products/b-414401Glock protested the Army’s premature selection of the Sig Sauer submission and asked that testing resume. An investigation by the Government Accountability Office found that “Sig Sauer’s full-sized handgun had a higher stoppage rate than Glock’s handgun, and there may have been other problems with the weapon’s accuracy.” The investigation also noted that the Army redacted the results of Sig’s compact handgun. Sig submitted two handgun frames in three different grip sizes with a swappable trigger unit, while Glock submitted one handgun with interchangeable backstraps to meet the Army’s modularity requirements. In the end, Glock’s protest was denied. “[T]here is no correlating superior performance factor for Glock, as compared to Sig Sauer’s, to support paying that premium. Consequently, I cannot justify paying a price premium of 37% for the Glock submission, even as a second award,” wrote Susan Poling in the GAO report. She did note the investigation uncovered “evaluation errors” by the Army, but could not justify paying more for the Glock. The short of it is that Sig Sauer’s price to the government was so low that the Army felt that it had a good enough pistol at a great price. So, testing was stopped and did not resume. Haaa. In the end, the cheapest is always the most expensive. |
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That’s a great example of bad the reporting around MHS is. I'm not going to try to correct everything because unlike the author I don't get paid to write about guns (although if this is the quality if his work, he probably shouldn't get paid to wrote about guns either. I'm just going to hit a few egregious things from the bit you quoted. Phase two destructive testing began, but was stopped at 12,500 rounds, half of the 25,000-round required service life. Moreover, destructive testing called for the pistols to fire up to 35,000 rounds to test reliability. 12,500 rounds were fired per pistol during phase 1 reliability testing, not during durability testing. They didn't stop the test early; they did it as planned. Sig submitted two handgun frames in three different grip sizes with a swappable trigger unit, Video guy made this same error. Im not sure if they're talking about the grip or the FCU, but it doesnt really matter because in either case the M18 and the M17 use the same frame. So, testing was stopped and did not resume. Literally the next paragraph in the article goes on to talk about how they completed the testing. |
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I mentioned in another 320 thread that the chatter at FLETC (Federal Law Enforcement Training Center)/Glynco (Brunswick, GA) in the Firearms Divisions (FAD) was potentially banning the 320/variants from the training center... While that would be an enormous kick in the teeth to Sig, it's a decision being made at a pay grade where no one in the FAD currently works and is WAY above their pay level. There's no shortage of folks that want to see it "banned" and while there are folks that don't, they're not nearly as vocal and seem to fewer and further between on a near daily basis. It is THE topic of conversation. I was asked if this was "rumor" or direct/first hand information. It is absolutely the latter of the two... The US Marshals Service (USMS) Training Division @ FLETC has banned the 320/variants from duty use/carry as of this morning. With that being said, it's worth noting that the current issued USMS firearm is the Glock 17/19. |
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Quoted: Don't not fall for the faux rage intended to obfuscate the real issues SIG has. Apparently the accuser has done this a couple of times to others. Quoted: Quoted: Sig Executive Allegations Dont forget about the thread where one of the Sig Executives was allegedly resizing that USPCA chick's starfish with his man pickle . Don't not fall for the faux rage intended to obfuscate the real issues SIG has. Apparently the accuser has done this a couple of times to others. Yeah, knowing the accuser's history I put zero stock in her accusations. Don't want to say much more than this. |
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Quoted: The concept originated during a collaborative project involving engineer Brian McDonald, who is listed as the inventor. While Mr. McDonald formerly held a position at Sig Sauer , he has not been employed by the company for several years and has recently operated independently as a consultant across multiple organizations. The project in question was not affiliated with, nor did it include input from, Sig Sauer or any of its affiliates. "This patent application represents AST's solution to further enhance the safety of the P320 platform," said Joe Salvador, Partner and Engineer at Angled Spade Technologies. "Our solution physically blocks the sear's movement when the manual safety is engaged. something that, to date, has not been a feature of the P320 and its variants." In 2023, shortly after filing the provisional patent, Angled Spade Technologies extended a professional courtesy to Sig Sauer by offering them the first right of refusal on the safety-enhancing design. Sig Sauer declined to engage at that time. AST then proceeded with the full patent process, and the applications publication is a milestone on that path. ![]() But ... WHY? Why would they not accept it? Quoted: The concept originated during a collaborative project involving engineer Brian McDonald, who is listed as the inventor. While Mr. McDonald formerly held a position at Sig Sauer , he has not been employed by the company for several years and has recently operated independently as a consultant across multiple organizations. The project in question was not affiliated with, nor did it include input from, Sig Sauer or any of its affiliates. "This patent application represents AST's solution to further enhance the safety of the P320 platform," said Joe Salvador, Partner and Engineer at Angled Spade Technologies. "Our solution physically blocks the sear's movement when the manual safety is engaged. something that, to date, has not been a feature of the P320 and its variants." In 2023, shortly after filing the provisional patent, Angled Spade Technologies extended a professional courtesy to Sig Sauer by offering them the first right of refusal on the safety-enhancing design. Sig Sauer declined to engage at that time. AST then proceeded with the full patent process, and the applications publication is a milestone on that path. ![]() But ... WHY? Why would they not accept it? It would be seen as an admission. |
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Quoted: From the vid: https://i.postimg.cc/h439tNnt/testing-1.png ------------------- Article talking about it: https://www.twz.com/18047/armys-new-pistols-often-eject-live-rounds-and-dont-work-well-with-regular-bullets More worryingly, the Pentagon’s top testing office said that during further tests, the trigger assemblies in two pistols had splintered apart and this was potentially the result of the drop fix, presenting an entirely new issue. As of September 2017, the recommendation was to “work with the vendor to identify and eliminate cause of variability in the manufacture of the trigger group mechanism.” Testing also revealed that the handguns had a propensity to eject a live round along with the empty cartridge case during normal functioning. There was no indication that this issue caused any malfunctions, such as “stove-piping,” which generally involves empty casing ending up jammed in place, typically sticking up from the ejection port. It is still a significant issue for shooters to be losing live cartridges during routine use, meaning they might run out of ammunition before they expect to or simply waste resources. The Office of the Director of Operational Test and Evaluation’s said that the problem became more pronounced the more rounds evaluators fired through their M17 and M18 pistols. As of September 2017, the Army was still working with Sig Sauer to identify the root cause of the problem, after which they would need to develop another fix. This wasn’t the only ammunition related issue, though. In tests, the M17 and M18 worked just fine with the Army’s new XM1153 “special purpose” cartridge, a hollow point round. They did not function reliably with the companion XM1152, a standard “ball” round with a bullet fully enclosed within a copper jacket. The Army had a requirement for the new pistols to be able to shoot 2,000 rounds straight without a stoppage at least 95 percent of the time on average. The service defined a stoppage as any instance in which the guns stopped functioning normally, but where the user could get the weapon running again without the need for tools or replacement parts. With the XM1153 hollow point, the M17 hit the 95 percent reliability mark, while the M18 managed just slightly better at 96 percent. But when troops loaded up magazines with the XM1152, the results were dismal. The full-size gun had only a 75 percent probability of functioning properly, while the compact version was barely over 60 percent. The report does not say why this might have occurred and it’s not clear what the Army was doing to correct the issue. The problems had appeared during the Product Verification Tests and the service simply opted to conduct operational testing and evaluation with the special purpose cartridge only. This in turn suggests that troops getting the pistols will receive the hollow points as their standard round, a significant change from previous doctrine. Now I'm interested if anyone runs much nato spec ball ammo through their 320s. My P320 (which as I continue to look at it seems like it may be one of the safe 320s) eats absolutely everything. 115-147, IDPA to +P+ SD loads. I do load some of my practice ammo (to duplicate recoil of SD rounds) with a Berry plated 124 FMJ profile to about 1200 fps. It eats that up like Rosie O'Donnell in a donut shop. The only round it has ever failed with was very early before the VUP when the guns could fire OOB. Had one round of SD ammo go off and have head separation which blew out the extractor. That's it. It's been flawless otherwise. The only mods my 320 has are polishing/stoning the sear-striker engagement surfaces, installing an X grip module, DP fiber sights, and the 576 trigger bar. |
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Quoted: I mentioned in another 320 thread that the chatter at FLETC (Federal Law Enforcement Training Center)/Glynco (Brunswick, GA) in the Firearms Divisions (FAD) was potentially banning the 320/variants from the training center... While that would be an enormous kick in the teeth to Sig, it's a decision being made at a pay grade where no one in the FAD currently works and is WAY above their pay level. There's no shortage of folks that want to see it "banned" and while there are folks that don't, they're not nearly as vocal and seem to fewer and further between on a near daily basis. It is THE topic of conversation. I was asked if this was "rumor" or direct/first hand information. It is absolutely the latter of the two... The US Marshals Service (USMS) Training Division @ FLETC has banned the 320/variants from duty use/carry as of this morning. With that being said, it's worth noting that the current issued USMS firearm is the Glock 17/19. Thanks for that. Is that service wide at USMS, across all of FLETC, or just the USMS section at FLETC? |
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Quoted:Thanks for that. Is that service wide at USMS, across all of FLETC, or just the USMS section at FLETC? USMS wide. All firearms policy guidance originates there at the Training Division/HQ; Sorry, I should have specified. There's a ZILLION different Fed LE agencies at FLETC that have their own respective firearms policies/procedures in addition to what FLETC itself as an (DHS) organization puts out, so their decision is for USMS personnel only and has no bearing on how FLETC or the other agencies conduct their business. Like years ago when FLETC banned the Blackhawk Serpa holster, regardless of whether or not your agency/organization authorized them you could not use it at FLETC, which effectively bans it from use/issue by any organization that wants to train there. |
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Quoted: USMS wide. All firearms policy guidance originates there at the Training Division/HQ; Sorry, I should have specified. There's a ZILLION different Fed LE agencies at FLETC that have their own respective firearms policies/procedures in addition to what FLETC itself as an (DHS) organization puts out, so their decision is for USMS personnel only and has no bearing on how FLETC or the other agencies conduct their business. Like years ago when FLETC banned the Blackhawk Serpa holster, regardless of whether or not your agency/organization authorized them you could not use it at FLETC, which effectively bans it from use/issue by any organization that wants to train there. Quoted: Quoted:Thanks for that. Is that service wide at USMS, across all of FLETC, or just the USMS section at FLETC? USMS wide. All firearms policy guidance originates there at the Training Division/HQ; Sorry, I should have specified. There's a ZILLION different Fed LE agencies at FLETC that have their own respective firearms policies/procedures in addition to what FLETC itself as an (DHS) organization puts out, so their decision is for USMS personnel only and has no bearing on how FLETC or the other agencies conduct their business. Like years ago when FLETC banned the Blackhawk Serpa holster, regardless of whether or not your agency/organization authorized them you could not use it at FLETC, which effectively bans it from use/issue by any organization that wants to train there. Good to know the next Sam Weaver won't be killed by a UD. Thanks for the clarification. |
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Quoted: Meh. Every GI, cop, and armed citizen in the US should be training with ARs at this point. That training would include reflex/presentation drills that involve manipulating the safety on the AR. Most pistols with frame mounted safeties have huge amount of overlap with ARs in terms of safety manipulation in these same drills. The safety shouldn't be a barrier for anyone that takes this stuff even a little bit seriously outside of really fringe scenarios like you injured your hand during a rollover accident trying to outrun the commie paratroopers or something. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: What a devastating way to lose this argument. What argument do you imagine we're having? Quoted: Glocks don't go off without a trigger pull. P320's do. There's your binary. A P320 will never hurt anyone if you only load it while it's pointed down range, unload it before pointing it anywhere else, and never carry it loaded. A Glock would be more safe if it had a manual safety. This doesn't mean that Glocks are unsafe. It means that there are incidents with Glocks that would be prevented by having and using a manual safety. I guess you need to define safe there. Part of the reason I went to Glocks was shooting IDPA. I saw way too many people draw and start pulling the trigger w/o a bang. They missed wiping the safety on a 1911 in most cases. It's unsafe it doesn't go bang when you want a bang. It's unsafe if it goes bang when you didn't want a bang. Put a Glock in a good holster and don't fuck with it and it doesn't go bang when you don't want it. Draw it and pull the trigger and it does go bang assuming you remembered to load it w/ good ammo. For me a double action revolver or Glock is the perfect carry gun. Meh. Every GI, cop, and armed citizen in the US should be training with ARs at this point. That training would include reflex/presentation drills that involve manipulating the safety on the AR. Most pistols with frame mounted safeties have huge amount of overlap with ARs in terms of safety manipulation in these same drills. The safety shouldn't be a barrier for anyone that takes this stuff even a little bit seriously outside of really fringe scenarios like you injured your hand during a rollover accident trying to outrun the commie paratroopers or something.
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They're replacing the P320. 






The FBI report is from 2024.