[ARCHIVED THREAD] - SCOTUS upholds the ATF’s rule regulating “ghost guns” under the Gun Control Act (Page 5 of 6)
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Quoted: Why wouldn’t Trump/Bondi/Patel drop the case? I’m not a NT’er at all, but there’s no fucking excuse for this. It goes directly against his EO and stated intentions. Because the case was accepted (Apr 22 2024) by SCOTUS before Trump was elected. And the case was argued (Oct 08 2024) by the Solicitor General from the Department of Justice before SCOTUS before Trump took office. The docket for the case: https://www.supremecourt.gov/docket/docketfiles/html/public/23-852.html |
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Quoted: “any weapon ... which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive." Leaves some “inventive areas of exploration…”  can you put a reducer on the exhaust of a car with a magazine designed to feed bbs into the reducer shooting them out? Explosion in the cylinder is used to expel a projectile |
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Quoted: That wouldn't do anything if every 3d printer is required to print it's serial number in code. Which is what paper printers do now. Quoted: Quoted: Wouldn't the obvious workaround be to just buy one at a garage sale or Goodwill. That wouldn't do anything if every 3d printer is required to print it's serial number in code. Which is what paper printers do now. Know how I know you don't know shit about 3d printers? |
 MASSIVE BREAKING NEWS JUST NOW: SCOTUS DECISION RULES FOR BIDEN'S ATF... |
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The Brady's are crowing. BREAKING NEWS FROM CNN: Supreme Court upholds rules requiring background checks for ‘ghost guns’ Friend, Today’s Supreme Court decision means that the life-saving “ghost gun” rule will remain in place and these dangerous weapons will be regulated and traceable. I cannot overstate the enormity of this triumph for gun violence prevention and the safety of the American people. This victory would not be possible without the dedicated support of grassroots advocates and the consistent work of the Brady legal team. While we battle against a presidential administration that seems determined to undermine gun violence prevention laws, this ruling by the highest court in the land shows us that we are continuing to win in the fight to save lives from gun violence. These are the kind of hard-won victories that we will continue to accomplish if we keep fighting together. If you’re with us, donate now to support continued legal wins in the Supreme Court and courts across the country: Support more live-saving victories today. >> We at Brady have been fighting for life-saving action on ghost guns for a long time: Two years ago, we helped drive record public support for President Biden’s ghost gun rule, ultimately helping it take effect to stop the proliferation of homemade, unserialized guns. When the gun lobby fought to end the rule in the courts, our legal team helped fight for it in district court, circuit court, and up to the Supreme Court. And we won, friend. The regulation of ghost guns will save lives and we will continue to fight for life-saving gun violence prevention measures in courts and wherever we can undermine the gun lobby’s deadly ‘guns everywhere’ agenda. Will you help us keep winning the fight to free America from gun violence? Any amount you give to support continued legal efforts will make a real difference: Victories like these wouldn’t be possible without you, friend. Thank you. Kris Brown Brady President Everytown: Earlier today, in Bondi v. VanDerStok, the United States Supreme Court upheld the ATF rule regulating ghost guns like the deadly firearms they are. Everytown was the first organization to sue the ATF back in 2020—during the first Trump administration—to force the agency to regulate ghost guns. Today's decision is a resounding vindication of Everytown's years-long advocacy. Ghost guns are unserialized, untraceable firearms that can be easily put together in minutes from parts acquired without a background check. This decision upholds federal law that prevents the unregulated sale of ghost gun kits and components to anyone. No one—including violent criminals and teenagers—should be allowed to go online and order a gun-building kit to their doorstep. The ATF's rule came into effect in August 2022, and it's already had an effect on our gun safety: Early data indicates a drop in ghost gun recoveries at crime scenes since the ATF's rule went into effect New York City, Baltimore, Boston, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Philadelphia, Oakland, and other cities reported declines in ghost gun recoveries in 2023 Polymer80—once the country's largest producer of unserialized ghost gun kits and component parts—shut down last year following numerous legal and regulatory challenges, including the ATF's rule. The Supreme Court decision is great news for everyone but the criminals who have adopted untraceable ghost guns as their weapons of choice. We're encouraged by this decision, and we will continue to defend gun safety in the courts. Thanks for being with us. John Feinblatt President Everytown for Gun Safety I can't wait to see what the Mad Mommies send out. 
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Quoted: So what am I missing? 80% lowers and frames are still readily available without serial numbers. All can be bought and finished without a FFL. So what has changed today over the last year? P80 won’t be able to sell the Glock in a box “buy build shoot” kits that included everything except ammo direct to purchasers anymore |
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I’m confused. The MSM and anti Constitution.orgs say this is the end of 80% receivers. But I’m reading from the guntubers that it only matters if ALL the parts are sold together. Separate, receivers and the parts, gun builders are gold. Or not? Not getting clarity on this.
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Quoted: Imagine thinking this had anything to do with Trump. Quoted: Quoted: Imagine thinking Trump was on your side, the guy who can not legally pass a NICS background check. Imagine thinking this had anything to do with Trump. Laughs in Gorsuch, Kavanaugh and Coney-Barrett...all Trump appointees, all helped weld this. |
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Quoted: P80 won't be able to sell the Glock in a box "buy build shoot" kits that included everything except ammo direct to purchasers anymore You just have to buy the parts separately And no serial number requirements |
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Quoted: I'm confused. The MSM and anti Constitution.orgs say this is the end of 80% receivers. But I'm reading from the guntubers that it only matters if ALL the parts are sold together. Separate, receivers and the parts, gun builders are gold. Or not? Not getting clarity on this. This law was in place for a while and made manufacturers sell frames and jigs separately. |
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The majority chose to apply the facial challenge test to an APA challenge because at one point the plaintiffs said they believed the rule was invalid on its face so that they could say this might be valid in at least one circumstance and avoid drawing any sort of line, rather than treating this as an APA challenge it was. In the process, they made up a new standard more dangerous than Chevron where if an administrative rule can be valid in a minority of cases or even one specific case, then the rule should be valid. All the result of some mental gymnastics to reach the conclusion they desired. Thomas’ dissent is worth the read. |
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Quoted: Kits that contain ALL of the parts necessary to assemble a functioning handgun can be regulated like completed firearms. Read Alitos dissent Quoted: Quoted: So what changes? We have been able to buy 80% lowers the entire time. Kits that contain ALL of the parts necessary to assemble a functioning handgun can be regulated like completed firearms. Read Alitos dissent Well thats easy enough to bypass. Same way parts kits bypassed the barrel ban sell a complete parts kit minus the barrel. End user purchases a barrel separately. buyer is required to take one additional step. law and order maintained |
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Quoted: This probably does not bode well if pistols with braces can be considered short barrel rifles ever gets in front of the supreme Court In that case, it needs to be a second amendment challenge, not a rule technicality challenge. I bet no SCOTUS will ever have the balls to take up a pure 2A case though, because to rule honestly would invalidate every single restriction on gun ownership, all 2 thousand plus rules and laws would go away if they ruled the way the founders intended. Even on this very board, there are countless members who agree with some kind of restrictions to possession of guns, or certain kinds of guns. |
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Quoted: The problem with serialization is that the anti-gun states will turn that process into anything they'd like. Yep. Every part, even springs would need serial numbers. Every bullet, case and primer would need a serial number. Not out of any practical investigative benefit, but just to make it prohibitively expensive. |
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Quoted: That wouldn't do anything if every 3d printer is required to print it's serial number in code. Which is what paper printers do now. With something like a 3D printer, that would be extremely easy to circumvent. Just as it would with the paper printers. You know where on the page the ink goes? Put a post-it note on that spot to take the hit from the ink, then peel it off after your page is printed. Or just go over the entire page with a yellow highlighter. With 3D printers, the code would need to be located at a specific layer in order for investigators to find it. So you when you model that part, make that layer sacrificial and remove it after printing. |
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Quoted: With something like a 3D printer, that would be extremely easy to circumvent. Just as it would with the paper printers. You know where on the page the ink goes? Put a post-it note on that spot to take the hit from the ink, then peel it off after your page is printed. Or just go over the entire page with a yellow highlighter. With 3D printers, the code would need to be located at a specific layer in order for investigators to find it. So you when you model that part, make that layer sacrificial and remove it after printing. Quoted: Quoted: That wouldn't do anything if every 3d printer is required to print it's serial number in code. Which is what paper printers do now. With something like a 3D printer, that would be extremely easy to circumvent. Just as it would with the paper printers. You know where on the page the ink goes? Put a post-it note on that spot to take the hit from the ink, then peel it off after your page is printed. Or just go over the entire page with a yellow highlighter. With 3D printers, the code would need to be located at a specific layer in order for investigators to find it. So you when you model that part, make that layer sacrificial and remove it after printing. Or slice the gcode on an offline computer that hasn't been updated to that version, and use a printer that relies on USB transfer instead of the cloud. The only way to find that code within a print would be a high resolution CT scan. Kharn |
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Quoted: Many of us live in one, yet you always poke fun at us like our state is about to go communist like yours any minute. If gun freedom (and many other freedoms) don't mean enough for you to you leave "Canada Lite" then enjoy your leftist state. Did you get your 5-year NY semi-auto rifle buyer permit to be able to purchase these? https://i.ibb.co/5xJG0ycJ/IMG-6845.jpg  |
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This ruling will embolden the ban states further; on top of how SCOTUS seems to be letting everyone walk over them: 1.) That lower judge in NY issued a ruling (stun guns aren't arms) that directly and explicitly contradicts a SCOTUS court case (Cetano); yet there is no immediate SCOTUS response to THAT challenge. 2.) The continued defiance by lower courts of SCOTUS' Bruen ruling and GVRs; lower courts are returning the exact same rulings that SCOTUS vacated and told them to do over again for incorrectness. Van Der Stok is based on old technology; "kill the P80/P80 clone market for manufacturers legally, you kill polymer framed pistol homebuilds" would have worked if this was about six or seven years ago. Today? 3d printing has advanced to making Glock frames that can last for several hundred rounds at the minimum. So expect the Ban State Attorneys to shift to regulating other parts of the firearm as regulated items -- I expect CA to pass a bill regulating barrels and bolts the same as lower receivers; this would be in line with the EU which considers any pressure bearing part of the firearm as the regulated item, not the receiver. |
| I don't like it but not surprised. The thing I see is if you want to make Gun Control go away, take their excuse away. Crack down on gun crime and stomp it out. Make the Left expose their real intent for Gun Control. I doubt it would ever hold up in court after that. |
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Quoted: In that case, it needs to be a second amendment challenge, not a rule technicality challenge. I bet no SCOTUS will ever have the balls to take up a pure 2A case though, because to rule honestly would invalidate every single restriction on gun ownership, all 2 thousand plus rules and laws would go away if they ruled the way the founders intended. Even on this very board, there are countless members who agree with some kind of restrictions to possession of guns, or certain kinds of guns. Quoted: Quoted: This probably does not bode well if pistols with braces can be considered short barrel rifles ever gets in front of the supreme Court In that case, it needs to be a second amendment challenge, not a rule technicality challenge. I bet no SCOTUS will ever have the balls to take up a pure 2A case though, because to rule honestly would invalidate every single restriction on gun ownership, all 2 thousand plus rules and laws would go away if they ruled the way the founders intended. Even on this very board, there are countless members who agree with some kind of restrictions to possession of guns, or certain kinds of guns. I fully believe in fun restrictions. If you're imprisoned, you shouldn't possess firearms. 
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Quoted: This ruling will embolden the ban states further; on top of how SCOTUS seems to be letting everyone walk over them: 1.) That lower judge in NY issued a ruling (stun guns aren't arms) that directly and explicitly contradicts a SCOTUS court case (Cetano); yet there is no immediate SCOTUS response to THAT challenge. 2.) The continued defiance by lower courts of SCOTUS' Bruen ruling and GVRs; lower courts are returning the exact same rulings that SCOTUS vacated and told them to do over again for incorrectness. Van Der Stok is based on old technology; "kill the P80/P80 clone market for manufacturers legally, you kill polymer framed pistol homebuilds" would have worked if this was about six or seven years ago. Today? 3d printing has advanced to making Glock frames that can last for several hundred rounds at the minimum. So expect the Ban State Attorneys to shift to regulating other parts of the firearm as regulated items -- I expect CA to pass a bill regulating barrels and bolts the same as lower receivers; this would be in line with the EU which considers any pressure bearing part of the firearm as the regulated item, not the receiver. For Glocks, I think the RXM and other FCU designs will take some wind out of the sails of the 80% movement. People can go nuts making meme grips and printing/selling them without worry of it being a firearm. Will someone come up with a modular serialized receiver for ARs that could be adapted across a wide variety of designs? It might be useful for all the MAC, Skorpion, etc designs that use an AR FCG but people are losing the ability to print themselves in the anti gun states. I wouldn't be surprised to see Oregon style parts control and CA's FFL ammo delivery spread further to the usual suspects (CA, NY, NJ, MD, MA, WA) unless the Supreme Court or Congress steps in. Kharn |
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Quoted: JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR's suggestion that I have mischaracterized what the Court has held, ante, at 2 (concurring opinion), demands a response. Although JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR obviously wishes that the Court had gone further, all that the Court has actually held is that the ATF rule is not facially invalid because at least some applications of the rule are consistent with the statute. And the two examples that the Court cites are (1) a kit that contains all the parts needed to make a semiautomatic pistol and that can be assembled in 21 minutes, see ante, at 8 13, and (2) a frame that can be made functional simply by clipping off two plastic tabs and drilling a few holes, ante, at 17 18, 21. The Court has not held that any other kits or presently non-functional receivers are covered. When the SCOTUS individual judges can't agree on what the ruling means, the system is fundamentally broken from corruption and it is only downhill from here. |
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Quoted: Even after I made a P80, it took WAY longer than 21 minutes to make the next one. And, I had to buy special tools that I didn't already have I dont know where they found this whiz kid who makes them in 21 minutes. You and I want good looking, functional firearms. Low IQ gangstas were buying these things like crazy. If I was going to load a few mismatched rounds of ball in my gun, maybe take two shots and then throw it in a dumpster, I could very easily complete the frame in 21 minutes. Take maybe 3 minutes to drill out the pin holes. Hog out the barrel bridge with a dremel in 5 minutes, who cares if the inside is gouged up. Saw or dremel off the rail blocks, again, who cares about cosmetics, another five. Leaves you nearly 10 minutes to do any finish work, or take extra time with the previous operations. |
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Quoted: You and I want good looking, functional firearms. Low IQ gangstas were buying these things like crazy. If I was going to load a few mismatched rounds of ball in my gun, maybe take two shots and then throw it in a dumpster, I could very easily complete the frame in 21 minutes. Take maybe 3 minutes to drill out the pin holes. Hog out the barrel bridge with a dremel in 5 minutes, who cares if the inside is gouged up. Saw or dremel off the rail blocks, again, who cares about cosmetics, another five. Leaves you nearly 10 minutes to do any finish work, or take extra time with the previous operations. Quoted: Quoted: Even after I made a P80, it took WAY longer than 21 minutes to make the next one. And, I had to buy special tools that I didn't already have I dont know where they found this whiz kid who makes them in 21 minutes. You and I want good looking, functional firearms. Low IQ gangstas were buying these things like crazy. If I was going to load a few mismatched rounds of ball in my gun, maybe take two shots and then throw it in a dumpster, I could very easily complete the frame in 21 minutes. Take maybe 3 minutes to drill out the pin holes. Hog out the barrel bridge with a dremel in 5 minutes, who cares if the inside is gouged up. Saw or dremel off the rail blocks, again, who cares about cosmetics, another five. Leaves you nearly 10 minutes to do any finish work, or take extra time with the previous operations. Exactly what part of that “gangsta” drive by shooting behavior would change with a serialized firearm? We continue to let the antis drive the message that serialization somehow reduces crime. Maybe some laws banning “ghost gangstas” will stop the underlying behavior? Oooh, how about we make it illegal to assault people? Did you know that in ALL 50 states in America it’s actually illegal to kill people???? |
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Quoted: You and I want good looking, functional firearms. Low IQ gangstas were buying these things like crazy. If I was going to load a few mismatched rounds of ball in my gun, maybe take two shots and then throw it in a dumpster, I could very easily complete the frame in 21 minutes. Take maybe 3 minutes to drill out the pin holes. Hog out the barrel bridge with a dremel in 5 minutes, who cares if the inside is gouged up. Saw or dremel off the rail blocks, again, who cares about cosmetics, another five. Leaves you nearly 10 minutes to do any finish work, or take extra time with the previous operations. The rail blocks as you call them are removed in 5 seconds with fret cutters |
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Quoted: So expect the Ban State Attorneys to shift to regulating other parts of the firearm as regulated items -- I expect CA to pass a bill regulating barrels and bolts the same as lower receivers; this would be in line with the EU which considers any pressure bearing part of the firearm as the regulated item, not the receiver. I'm psychic:
https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=202520260SB704 this is a direct result of Roberts being an idiot looking out only for the "reputation" of SCOTUS. If you take a historically low number of cases (compare the # of cases heard by SCOTUS today with the 1960s-1970s); then your rulings need to be brutal, widespread and proactive in cutting off future potential cases headed your way, rather than legalist rulings that are the narrowest possible way to tailor them. |
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Quoted: Exactly what part of that “gangsta” drive by shooting behavior would change with a serialized firearm? We continue to let the antis drive the message that serialization somehow reduces crime. Maybe some laws banning “ghost gangstas” will stop the underlying behavior? Oooh, how about we make it illegal to assault people? Did you know that in ALL 50 states in America it’s actually illegal to kill people???? Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Even after I made a P80, it took WAY longer than 21 minutes to make the next one. And, I had to buy special tools that I didn't already have I dont know where they found this whiz kid who makes them in 21 minutes. You and I want good looking, functional firearms. Low IQ gangstas were buying these things like crazy. If I was going to load a few mismatched rounds of ball in my gun, maybe take two shots and then throw it in a dumpster, I could very easily complete the frame in 21 minutes. Take maybe 3 minutes to drill out the pin holes. Hog out the barrel bridge with a dremel in 5 minutes, who cares if the inside is gouged up. Saw or dremel off the rail blocks, again, who cares about cosmetics, another five. Leaves you nearly 10 minutes to do any finish work, or take extra time with the previous operations. Exactly what part of that “gangsta” drive by shooting behavior would change with a serialized firearm? We continue to let the antis drive the message that serialization somehow reduces crime. Maybe some laws banning “ghost gangstas” will stop the underlying behavior? Oooh, how about we make it illegal to assault people? Did you know that in ALL 50 states in America it’s actually illegal to kill people???? I’m not arguing for victim disarmament, trust me. I’m pointing out that if P80 hadn’t been mailing out gun kits that Helen Keller could complete with a nail file in less time be than it takes to take a cold shower…thousands upon thousands of which were immediately bought by low-iq gangbangers, we wouldn’t have this ruling. They were, for all intensive porpoises, selling guns without serial numbers and thus without background checks and it should surprise no one but no one that the law would look askance at that. You and I believe SAWs should be sold to 16yos at Fleet Farm who pay with Krugerands, but that’s not the reality we live in. |
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Quoted: The rail blocks as you call them are removed in 5 seconds with fret cutters Quoted: Quoted: You and I want good looking, functional firearms. Low IQ gangstas were buying these things like crazy. If I was going to load a few mismatched rounds of ball in my gun, maybe take two shots and then throw it in a dumpster, I could very easily complete the frame in 21 minutes. Take maybe 3 minutes to drill out the pin holes. Hog out the barrel bridge with a dremel in 5 minutes, who cares if the inside is gouged up. Saw or dremel off the rail blocks, again, who cares about cosmetics, another five. Leaves you nearly 10 minutes to do any finish work, or take extra time with the previous operations. The rail blocks as you call them are removed in 5 seconds with fret cutters Yeah, me and mine took a little more time at it than that. 
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