|
Quoted: Identify the "friends" and training courses they run, where and when the Recon T has been evaluated and found lacking, so that the information can been reviewed and verified. Otherwise, your just tossing out a baseless appeal to authority, which is absolutely meaningless. You show us. Tactical Combat Medical Course - Ft Sam Houston Joint Force Combat Trauma Management course - Ft Sam Houston Brigade Combat Trauma Team Training - Ft Sam Houston Advanced Trauma Training Course - Tampa, Fl. None of them have found your beloved Recon to be worth a shit. Hence why they haven't received CoTCCC recommendation as a TQ to use when life matters. |
|
Quoted:
CATS broke Just spitballing on this one, but I would say that the polymer windlass sustaining constant exposure to solar energy combined with rough handling/impact from being stored on the outside of the plate carrier contributed to the windlass failures experienced here. Quoted:
Quoted:
Serious question about this part: was this with the blue/training TQs, or ones that had some miles on them? The only CAT I've ever broken was in training with a blue one that had seen God knows how many cycles, same with the ones with non-sticky/busted velcro. Just spitballing on this one, but I would say that the polymer windlass sustaining constant exposure to solar energy combined with rough handling/impact from being stored on the outside of the plate carrier contributed to the windlass failures experienced here. FWIW I bought more CATs after buying the Recon and all my trainers are CATs as well. ETA: I also dislike the thinner windlass, it's harder for me to get a grip on than the new CAT. |
|
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27045491 Indeed, one of the new models, the RATS, was inferior to the C-A-T in terms of speed of application and simulated loss of blood. Preliminary Comparison of New and Established Tactical Tourniquets in a Manikin Hemorrhage Model. Gibson R, Housler GJ, Rush SC, Aden JK 3rd, Kragh JF Jr, Dubick MA.
BACKGROUND: Emergency tourniquet use has been associated with hemorrhage control and improved survival during the wars since 2001. The purpose of the present study is to compare the differential performance of two new tactical tourniquets with the standard-issue tourniquet to provide preliminary evidence to guide decisions on device development. METHODS: A laboratory experiment was designed to test the effectiveness of tourniquets on a manikin thigh. Three models of tourniquets were assessed. The Rapid Application Tourniquet System (RATS) and the Tactical Mechanical Tourniquet (TMT) were compared with the standard-issue Combat Application Tourniquet() (C-A-T). Two users conducted 30 tests each. RESULTS: Percentages for effectiveness (hemorrhage control, yes/no) and distal pulse cessation did not differ significantly by model. When compared with the RATS, the C-A-T performed better ( < .001) for time to hemorrhage control and fluid loss. The C-A-T and TMT had comparable responses for most measures, but the C-A-T applied more pressure ( = .04) than did the TMT for hemorrhage control. CONCLUSION: All three tactical tourniquets showed substantial capacity for hemorrhage control. However, the two new tourniquet models (RATS and TMT) did not offer any improvement over the C-A-T, which is currently issued to military services. Indeed, one of the new models, the RATS, was inferior to the C-A-T in terms of speed of application and simulated loss of blood. Opportunities were detected for refinements in design of the two new tourniquets that may offer future improvements in their performance. |
|
Quoted: Here's a few, all of which teach deploying medical personnel about equipment and techniques that work. Tactical Combat Medical Course - Ft Sam Houston Joint Force Combat Trauma Management course - Ft Sam Houston Brigade Combat Trauma Team Training - Ft Sam Houston Advanced Trauma Training Course - Tampa, Fl. None of them have found your beloved Recon to be worth a shit. Hence why they haven't received CoTCCC recommendation as a TQ to use when life matters. |
|
Quoted:
Serious question about this part: was this with the blue/training TQs, or ones that had some miles on them? The only CAT I've ever broken was in training with a blue one that had seen God knows how many cycles, same with the ones with non-sticky/busted velcro. Quoted:
Quoted:
Who cares...just have something that works. Have it on your person at all times. Know how to use it correctly...and use it. The CAT isn't perfect. The RATS isn't perfect. Someone who knows enough to carry one should be able to apply both with equal effectiveness just like they should be able to run both a Glock and a Sig at basic gunfight speed. Frankly...there is no magic TQ. They all have areas where they are better/worse. I don't like CATs because I've seen them fail hard in training when saturated with blood/mud/dirt and with guys trying to line up with Velcro in the dark and not getting sufficient contact. I've seen documented failures from Iraq where a patient died because they broke two CATs trying to occlude the blood flow on a large limb and couldn't get it to stop...this should be fixed with the new gen windlass but why are we on gen 5/6 or so? Because none are perfect. Having tested most of them and been issued most of them, my preference is a SOFTW for adults and a SWATT (ZOMG the horror of it) for pediatric TQ use. This was a few years back...and not on the current gen of CAT (it was the white band/tab version). The instructor was not a fan of the CAT and effectively advised that if we were issued the CAT, to carry 3 and assume one will snap if applied to a large muscular structure like a leg on a strong/healthy adult male. The CAT is a good piece of gear...I have several in bags and on my vest as I'm issued a pile of them...but I also get SWATWs and I prefer it as I've tried to break them and I can't. YMMV...I'm not a medic, I'm just an end user. |
|
Quoted:
You asked about broken CATS. I brought you a Military researched and documented study with examples of CATS failures in military use. I know its hard to accept that what you believe to be %100 fool proof and unbreakable just isn't true, but there it is. Carry two. Your welcome. Quoted:
Quoted:
That has fuck all to do with the question I asked but thanks anyway. Reading comprehension is a disappearing art. |
|
Quoted:
I asked him about his broken CATs. I stated that I had previously broken a CAT. Which of those things, specifically, indicate that I have a "%100" faith in them? I might add that I have some, ah, limited experience with CATs and SOF-whichever variants. Reading comprehension is a disappearing art. |
|
I hope Recon does get vetted through TCCC and approved. Same for the Halo and the SAM XT. Right now, CAT and Sof-T are the only ones approved that I know of. Getting more options to choose from only benefits us. Competition will drive product development and they will be competing for prices. Till then, though, Im only relying on CATS. They're scattered where I need them. I have 1 Rats, its small and it fits in the last ditch pouch I take when traveling. No room for a CAT. If I didn't have it in there, I would have no TQ at all. So better than nothing but I do this knowing full well its better than nothing and not ideal, and if I didn't have it I would be cutting my shirt apart to make a TQ. I haven't heard of the TK4L, so going to look into that. |
|
Heads up on SAM XT, there is a recall on them. https://www.sammedical.com/xtrecall 20 |
|
Quoted: No, when we did TCCC, the 18Ds had a powerpoint showing TQ failures for a variety of reasons (placement, application issues, breakage), and they had one of broken CATs that failed on patients in the field. This was a few years back...and not on the current gen of CAT (it was the white band/tab version). The instructor was not a fan of the CAT and effectively advised that if we were issued the CAT, to carry 3 and assume one will snap if applied to a large muscular structure like a leg on a strong/healthy adult male. The CAT is a good piece of gear...I have several in bags and on my vest as I'm issued a pile of them...but I also get SWATWs and I prefer it as I've tried to break them and I can't. YMMV...I'm not a medic, I'm just an end user. |
|
Quoted:
Awww, the internet commando says I don't matter. Boo hoo. In other words, you threw out a baseless appeal to authority, got called on it, and are backpeddaling because you know those "friends" are gonna say "failsafe who?". "We tested what, when?". Game, set, match. Quoted:
Quoted: No. I dont find you important enough to tell you whom my friends that own and operate med courses. Further, they dont want their names, in any way, associated with Recon Medical. They're funny that way! I know, I know. Not good enough for you. But you dont matter. Odds are, you'll be banhammered within the year. |
|
Quoted:
You're showing your ass, FNG. Odds are, you'll be banhammered within the year. ETA: FNG? LOL ,This is not NAM, its the internet. FNG isn't a thing here. It is amusing that you actually try to use it in a snide manner. I think that says more about how juvenile you are, than it does about my time here. |
|
Quoted: Umm, okay. I will take your astute observations under due consideration. Thanks. ETA: FNG? LOL ,This is not NAM, its the internet. FNG isn't a thing here. It is amusing that you actually try to use it in a snide manner. I think that says more about how juvenile you are, than it does about my time here. |
|
Quoted: Anybody that wasn't here for the 13er's era is an FNG to me. |
|
Quoted:
What level of training do you have? 20 Quoted:
Quoted:
What's a good IFAK under $150? This thread reminds me I need one. 20 I know sometimes tourniquets can cause damage, but I figure if I need a tourniquet it's worth the risk. |
|
Quoted:
Zero formal training, but taking a class is on my radar. I know sometimes tourniquets can cause damage, but I figure if I need a tourniquet it's worth the risk. Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
What's a good IFAK under $150? This thread reminds me I need one. 20 I know sometimes tourniquets can cause damage, but I figure if I need a tourniquet it's worth the risk. |
|
Quoted: Really!? Me too! 30 Months deployed worth. (Oif1, Operation Iron Saber, and the Surge). Reading is a lost art. You asked him, I answered you. It happens. Perhaps the study from 1/6 was just too long for you to read? Also, CAT master race. Meow. |
|
Quoted:
Zero formal training, but taking a class is on my radar. I know sometimes tourniquets can cause damage, but I figure if I need a tourniquet it's worth the risk. Free training. Takes about an hour. |
|
Quoted: Really!? Me too! 30 Months deployed worth. (Oif1, Operation Iron Saber, and the Surge). Reading is a lost art. You asked him, I answered you. It happens. Perhaps the study from 1/6 was just too long for you to read? Shit changes, equipment changes, survivability changes. Get up to speed homie, or you can use inadequate shot and hope the person you used it on is still alive when they hit the ER. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Zero formal training, but taking a class is on my radar. I know sometimes tourniquets can cause damage, but I figure if I need a tourniquet it's worth the risk. Free training. Takes about an hour. 
I have been thinking of taking one of those courses to refresh on. |
|
Quoted: Thats nice dear. The real question is, who are you to me? And why should I care? I do think its telling that once again, the last bastion of a literal loser is to stop attacking the topic, because you can't, and attack the messenger. FNG, LOL. You have provided zero relevant experience to this discussion. You just run in talking about a garbage piece of equipment, espousing its benefits that have been completely disproven by ORGs and schools dedicated to combat medicine. |
|
Quoted:
Zero formal training, but taking a class is on my radar. I know sometimes tourniquets can cause damage, but I figure if I need a tourniquet it's worth the risk. What if it’s someone trained using your ifak on you. That’s what they are originally designed for. I say put the best and most you can afford in it and don’t use what you don’t know how to use. At a minimum, it may motivate you to get trained in it, at max, it may save your life. As I’ve said 100 times before, if we can show restraint not pulling our guns and depleting all our carry mags in every asshole that pisses us off, we should be able to show the same restraint by leaving the needle in the fucking pouch. |
|
Quoted:
There was some sweet medical training at SE3  Quoted:
Quoted:
Zero formal training, but taking a class is on my radar. I know sometimes tourniquets can cause damage, but I figure if I need a tourniquet it's worth the risk. We were gonna do some med training at E6, but hurricane. |
|
Quoted:
I’m not a fan of this line of thinking. What if it’s someone trained using your ik ask on you. That’s what they are originally designed for. I say put the best and most you can afford in it and don’t use what you don’t know how to use. At a minimum, it may motivate you to get trained in it, at max, it may save your life. As I’ve said 100 times before, if we can show restraint not pulling our guns and depleting all our carry mags in every asshole that pisses us off, we should be able to show the same restraint by leaving the needle in the fucking pouch. Quoted:
Quoted:
Zero formal training, but taking a class is on my radar. I know sometimes tourniquets can cause damage, but I figure if I need a tourniquet it's worth the risk. What if it’s someone trained using your ik ask on you. That’s what they are originally designed for. I say put the best and most you can afford in it and don’t use what you don’t know how to use. At a minimum, it may motivate you to get trained in it, at max, it may save your life. As I’ve said 100 times before, if we can show restraint not pulling our guns and depleting all our carry mags in every asshole that pisses us off, we should be able to show the same restraint by leaving the needle in the fucking pouch. Definite hard no. But I learned makeshift tourniquets in boy scouts. Admittedly I need more training, but unless something big has changed it seems like the ability to use one (even without proper training) might be a help |
|
Quoted: The real question is who the fuck are you? You have provided zero relevant experience to this discussion. You just run in talking about a garbage piece of equipment, espousing its benefits that have been completely disproven by ORGs and schools dedicated to combat medicine. PS- ORGS and schools VS peer reviewed, military sponsored and conducted combat related evaluations of equipment failures. I think I see the problem here....... Let me guess, your a school house guy aren't you. |
|
Quoted:
I, and others have provided plenty of relevant experience. I provided an entire peer reviewed study on CATS failures. As for who I am, Im nobody, same as you. Except I don't have as much teenage like angst when my sacred cows are gored. Loosen the CAT around your neck, or your gonna pass out. Quoted:
Quoted: The real question is who the fuck are you? You have provided zero relevant experience to this discussion. You just run in talking about a garbage piece of equipment, espousing its benefits that have been completely disproven by ORGs and schools dedicated to combat medicine. You have no credentials. |
|
Quoted: I, and others have provided plenty of relevant experience. I provided an entire peer reviewed study on CATS failures. As for who I am, Im nobody, same as you. Except I don't have as much teenage like angst when my sacred cows are gored. Loosen the CAT around your neck, or your gonna pass out. You keep being ignorant, and I'll keep being a senior combat medic with plenty of trauma experience. ETA: I've seen CATs, SOF-T, SOF-T W, improvised, RATs, RMTs, ratchet straps, etc fail and fail to effectively stop bleeding. On actual combat casualties, not reading one study, that is already outdated. Try to keep up or change is gonna kill someone that you inadequately and incompetently treat. |
|
Quoted:
Bullshit. Doc is a vetted medical professional with extensive experience in this topic. You have no credentials. |
|
Quoted: Yeah, so you think retread/shill. You keep being ignorant, and I'll keep being a senior combat medic with plenty of trauma experience. Still Broke |
|
Quoted:
Thats nice. I didn't write the evaluation of CATS failures in Afghanistan. I just showed you the way to it. The credentials of the guys that did write it, far outweigh the credentials of one random medic on a gun board. Thanks. You should stick to your lane of professional expertise, which sure as fuck ain't tourniquet use and effectiveness. |
|
Quoted:
And I will continue to believe the senior Corpsmen and Officers as well as the USMC who funded, wrote, and published an opinion contrary to some random army NCO who can't accept that his favorite T, has had issues. Still Broke Quoted:
Quoted: Yeah, so you think retread/shill. You keep being ignorant, and I'll keep being a senior combat medic with plenty of trauma experience. Still Broke 
Nobody said the CAT was perfect  . Just that it's the most dependable.
|
|
Quoted:
And I will continue to believe the senior Corpsmen and Officers as well as the USMC who funded, wrote, and published an opinion about failures of equipmet IN COMBAT that is contrary to some random army NCO who can't accept that his favorite T, has had issues. Still Broke You're reaching like Stretch Armstrong. Just stop. You're embarrassing yourself in front of actual medical professionals. |
|
Quoted: No you didn't, but you show an article from 4 generations of CATs ago, about where it should be stored. And then espouse it as current, and relevant. It is neither. You should stick to your lane of professional expertise, which sure as fuck ain't tourniquet use and effectiveness. |
|
All this argument over actual product, and everyone overlooks the fact that the RAT dude is shit-posting fake garbage all over the internet, while disguised as a legit source (Poorly.)
Come on folks, If Benchmade had done this, it would have been a social media melt down by now.
|
|
Quoted:
All this argument over actual product, and everyone overlooks the fact that the RAT dude is shit-posting fake garbage all over the internet, while disguised as a legit source (Poorly.) Come on folks, If Benchmade had done this, it would have been a social media melt down by now. |
|
Quoted: I'm gonna ask a legitimate question. Are you stupid in real life or just on the internet? You have nothing left, except the last bastion of a loser. Attack the person. You lose. Although, I get the distinct feeling that being the loser is NOT a new predicament for you, and at this point, might even be a comfortable and familiar place that you find yourself in. |
|
Quoted:
Here is where I am with the RAT. It worked okay as a tiedown for my kayak. And I have wondered, if it is wrapped around a persons throat 3 times before waterboarding, would the choking sensation enhance the drowning sensation,making the session more effective, or would they cancel each other out? Quoted:
Quoted:
All this argument over actual product, and everyone overlooks the fact that the RAT dude is shit-posting fake garbage all over the internet, while disguised as a legit source (Poorly.) Come on folks, If Benchmade had done this, it would have been a social media melt down by now. |
|
Quoted:
And here is your legitimate answer. You have nothing left, except the last bastion of a loser. Attack the person. You lose. Except, you know, I was more senior in 2013 than the three that wrote that article? Or the 28 months of deployed medical experience that I have. Or the hundreds of combat casualties I've treated. But who the fuck am I? Oh that's right. A medical professional. Also, since when does the USMC fund anything medical? Wait... That's right, the US Navy does all of that. |
|
Quoted: Oh, you mean like calling me some random Army NCO who doesn't know what he's talking about? Except, you know, I was more senior in 2013 than the three that wrote that article? Or the 28 months of deployed medical experience that I have. Or the hundreds of combat casualties I've treated. But who the fuck am I? Oh that's right. A medical professional. Also, since when does the USMC fund anything medical? Wait... That's right, the US Navy does all of that. 
|
|
Quoted:
Quoted: Oh, you mean like calling me some random Army NCO who doesn't know what he's talking about? Except, you know, I was more senior in 2013 than the three that wrote that article? Or the 28 months of deployed medical experience that I have. Or the hundreds of combat casualties I've treated. But who the fuck am I? Oh that's right. A medical professional. Also, since when does the USMC fund anything medical? Wait... That's right, the US Navy does all of that. lol That's about typical for guys who act like he's doing. |