[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Law Suit, KE Arms, Karl InRange TV, GWACS CAV arms molds Brownells (Page 5 of 5)
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Tried ordering from the website last night and this morning but no-go. There was either a temporary problem connecting to the shipping provider's rate calculation service or the shipping is not provided to your area. Please refresh this page to try again or contact us for shipping availability. I guess I caught everyone at lunch when I called, too. 
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Quoted: think the most expensive component is the carbon fiber handguard. they have a version without it Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: $1600 on Brownells.  Pretty ridiculous for a rifle with a $120 barrel. Someone here added it all up and it came in about $1000, mostly because Faxon got real proud of their carbon fiber handguards recently. Also the pencil barrel from Faxon has always been over 150 with the integrated flash hider version which was key to the true build being over 200. Think people mix up the Faxon and BA barrels as the BA barrels are routinely 120 and can be had for around 100 (which is why my build uses one). |
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Quoted: I avoid giving them views, too. They are very intelligent and knowledgeable satanist flakes. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Its worth watching. Watched it a 1.75 speed. But basically, InRange has/had a "What would stoner do" DIY gun project. Lightweight gun, modern materials. One of the integral parts of this build is/was the polymer CavArms Mk2 lower. Due to legal reasons (some of us remember this), CavArms went out of business and sold the injection molds for this to a company called GWACS. GWACS sold out of lowers and (according to them) wore out the mold fulfilling orders from people doing WWSD project guns. Brownells approached InRange about turning it into a commercial project. GWACS goes dark for a couple of years, loses their LLC, doesn't return anyone's calls. InRange/Brownells goes to KE Arms (who produced other parts for the WWSD) and consults with them about making new molds with a brand new design lower. GWACS then goes full fucktard lawsuit and claims shit like they own the intellectual property of the CavArms MK2 lower (they don't) and that the KE Arms lower is infringing on their intellectual property because it 1. has an A1 length of pull 2. has a trapdoor compartment 3. I forget, watch the video So GWACS is suing basically everyone... and why? Oh, it turns out one of the "investors" for GWACs who helped buy the CavArms MK2 molds for them is funding the lawsuit and "has no interest in producing military style firearms for public sale" I'm sure I'm missing important details. Watch the video. You know, I always wanted one of those cav arms lowers back in the day but just never got around to buying one. I think I'll get one of the KE Arms one just to help support them against GWACS. Thanks for the synopsis. I avoid giving inrange views when I can. I avoid giving them views, too. They are very intelligent and knowledgeable satanist flakes. |
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Quoted: There's been "integrated" AR lowers for decades. IIRC, colt made one back in the day. Sean's design was obviously improved, and KE Arms is further improved. Unless GWAC has some sort of paper on the IP, I don't see how them buying the mold transfers it. If there was no patent or other agreement, my understanding (which may be wrong) is that the IP stays with the creator which would be Sean. CavArms was pretty famous for playing fast and loose with anything vaguely resembling trade secrets, so I'm inclined to agree with Karl that this wasn't likely patented. If I go and buy a CNC machine, I don't automatically have the IP to make the same shit that the prior owner of the machine made. I don't see how this is any different.  History of the Monolithic Polymer AR: From Colt to KE Arms |
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Quoted: I grew up around injection molding. I'm wondering how someone wears out a mold? You can easily damage one if you don't know what are doing (they can be repaired). But its next to impossible to wear out a mold. My dad had molds that were ran close to 24/7 for 30 years that were still running fine. I have worked around them for years and its certainly possible. Mainly in my experience, it has a lot to do with the resin. Some are more abrasive than others. But to you point user error and damage is usually the culprit. |
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Quoted: Nice! Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I agree, but the pistol grip on the older ones is more comfortable to me. It's just a trade off and the odds are the features of the KEs I have already will outweigh the ergos of the older pistol grip for me. I'll most likely end up with a Black KE to go with my OD and FDE. I just need more trigger time with the newer ones.  They're plastic - you can weld em w/ a soldering iron.  But for some damn reason I want to SBR one. I just like the idea of an ultralight compact rifle with a fixed stock. I have plenty of SBRs already though. I think I might like to have another inch taken off of the stock like some companies used to do for the CavArms and GWACS MKIIs to drop it down a bit shorter than A1 length. I SBR'd one and put a Hahn top loading Colt SMG mag block, a 7" AR9 upper sporting a T2, and a SiCo 9Osprey on it for my wife. I run an 8.5oz Slash HeavyBuffer and regular carbine spring and it's a fun little AR9 with a good LOP and rear biased COG that's good for her. It's a fun little rifle. I SBR'd the KP-15 after hearing Russel say blowback 9mm hadn't been an issue, but prior to the KP-9 being released. Also gives me more options to get her a 5.56 upper built down the road should she start competing beyond PCC Steel matches. The A1 LOP is a little short for my 6'8" wingspan, but it's perfect for her. |
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Quoted: I like the concept of keeping the stock light, but it seems someone could take that even farther. Same injection molding materials, but in a Druganov open stock design. Fattest part would be the buffer/cheek weld part. I put one of those fiber injected Druganov style stocks on my 10-22 and love it. .223/5.56 is light recoil anyway. Length of pull and shoulder padding could be handled with additiinal rubber pads on the butt end. In an AR style stock this could be molded in a fairly simple injection mold die design. It would only require a single core pull (for the buffer void). Quoted: Quoted: Yup Love mine. Color in real is lighter than what it looks in my pic https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/56774/4ED362C5-8719-4202-9EEC-230044977507_jpe-2464273.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/56774/1BCDD1FE-B28D-4DC6-83A5-833728CC2FB3_jpe-2464276.JPG I like the concept of keeping the stock light, but it seems someone could take that even farther. Same injection molding materials, but in a Druganov open stock design. Fattest part would be the buffer/cheek weld part. I put one of those fiber injected Druganov style stocks on my 10-22 and love it. .223/5.56 is light recoil anyway. Length of pull and shoulder padding could be handled with additiinal rubber pads on the butt end. In an AR style stock this could be molded in a fairly simple injection mold die design. It would only require a single core pull (for the buffer void). |
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Quoted: Not to mention trotting in the old cav arms hangers on who are going to tell how they trimmed the lowers, and had sim gun fights with the molds laying on the table, and sat around listening to Shawn explain the entire manufacturing process with a beer in one hand and a slice of pepperoni in the other. There are people(besides Phagan) who worked for both companies on both projects. GWACS is full of shit. |
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Quoted: I finally started acquiring parts for my WWSD upper to go with the $25 Sabre Defense marked polymer lower I've had sitting in the safe for years. I believe I have @backbencher to thank for that deal. You have Trinity Ordnance to thank for that. I just put the deal of 5/$100, and later 20/$100 in GD. Be a while before we can have a $300 AR thread again. |
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Quoted: It's a fun little rifle. I SBR'd the KP-15 after hearing Russel say blowback 9mm hadn't been an issue, but prior to the KP-9 being released. Also gives me more options to get her a 5.56 upper built down the road should she start competing beyond PCC Steel matches. The A1 LOP is a little short for my 6'8" wingspan, but it's perfect for her. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I agree, but the pistol grip on the older ones is more comfortable to me. It's just a trade off and the odds are the features of the KEs I have already will outweigh the ergos of the older pistol grip for me. I'll most likely end up with a Black KE to go with my OD and FDE. I just need more trigger time with the newer ones. They're plastic - you can weld em w/ a soldering iron. But for some damn reason I want to SBR one. I just like the idea of an ultralight compact rifle with a fixed stock. I have plenty of SBRs already though. I think I might like to have another inch taken off of the stock like some companies used to do for the CavArms and GWACS MKIIs to drop it down a bit shorter than A1 length. I SBR'd one and put a Hahn top loading Colt SMG mag block, a 7" AR9 upper sporting a T2, and a SiCo 9Osprey on it for my wife. I run an 8.5oz Slash HeavyBuffer and regular carbine spring and it's a fun little AR9 with a good LOP and rear biased COG that's good for her. It's a fun little rifle. I SBR'd the KP-15 after hearing Russel say blowback 9mm hadn't been an issue, but prior to the KP-9 being released. Also gives me more options to get her a 5.56 upper built down the road should she start competing beyond PCC Steel matches. The A1 LOP is a little short for my 6'8" wingspan, but it's perfect for her. How did you engrave it? A KP-9 with a CMMG Banshee upper would be interesting. I have a similar problem, between that and my scope's eye relief it's mounted allll the way out there.
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So Ian's video, made before GWACs rose from the grave and started selling more lowers and trying bite the Stoner Do boys in federal court mentions that Ian saw proof that the mold was wearing out. GWACs cut the lower shorter at the buttstock end to cut off the increasingly ragged butt stock end. The rest of the lower was also kind of blobbing like a melted candle. so is GWACs still using the old clay face mold from way back from cav arms? |
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Quoted: I don't do intellectual property law but it smells like a stinker. Sadly for the Defendants it will still cost them six figures each to fend off the GWACs zombie. How difficult/possible is it for them to force GWACs pay their legal costs? Would that take another lawsuit after the fact? |
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Quoted: I don't do intellectual property law but it smells like a stinker. Sadly for the Defendants it will still cost them six figures each to fend off the GWACs zombie. This sounds like SCO vs IBM, with the added twist of grabbery. (for the uninitiated; SCO was a dying company that was being paid by Microsoft to run lawsuits in order to hobble or destroy Linux) |
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Quoted: How difficult/possible is it for them to force GWACs pay their legal costs? Would that take another lawsuit after the fact? Your Honor, this suit is entirely frivolous, without merit, and an attempted fraud upon this court. Please assess sanctions in the amount of our attorney fees, totaling $135,000 to date... Or, way back in the beginning, make them an offer of judgment for $1000, and then assess them for all fees incurred after they reject your more than generous offer. I wonder why this tactic isn't used a lot more often. |
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Quoted: How difficult/possible is it for them to force GWACs pay their legal costs? Would that take another lawsuit after the fact? that usually only happens -there's a statute that requires attorney's fees, like in a sexual harassment case -the case is frivolous, which is a much higher standard that one would think, although I don't know how the case against Shawn isn't frivolous. Everything in this lawsuit happened after he was barred from being involved in firearms manufacturing and there are no claims he violated that ban. Everything that happened was downstream from Shawn's involvement. |
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Quoted: It's a fun little rifle. I SBR'd the KP-15 after hearing Russel say blowback 9mm hadn't been an issue, but prior to the KP-9 being released. Also gives me more options to get her a 5.56 upper built down the road should she start competing beyond PCC Steel matches. The A1 LOP is a little short for my 6'8" wingspan, but it's perfect for her. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I agree, but the pistol grip on the older ones is more comfortable to me. It's just a trade off and the odds are the features of the KEs I have already will outweigh the ergos of the older pistol grip for me. I'll most likely end up with a Black KE to go with my OD and FDE. I just need more trigger time with the newer ones. They're plastic - you can weld em w/ a soldering iron. But for some damn reason I want to SBR one. I just like the idea of an ultralight compact rifle with a fixed stock. I have plenty of SBRs already though. I think I might like to have another inch taken off of the stock like some companies used to do for the CavArms and GWACS MKIIs to drop it down a bit shorter than A1 length. I SBR'd one and put a Hahn top loading Colt SMG mag block, a 7" AR9 upper sporting a T2, and a SiCo 9Osprey on it for my wife. I run an 8.5oz Slash HeavyBuffer and regular carbine spring and it's a fun little AR9 with a good LOP and rear biased COG that's good for her. It's a fun little rifle. I SBR'd the KP-15 after hearing Russel say blowback 9mm hadn't been an issue, but prior to the KP-9 being released. Also gives me more options to get her a 5.56 upper built down the road should she start competing beyond PCC Steel matches. The A1 LOP is a little short for my 6'8" wingspan, but it's perfect for her. I'm a relatively short 5'11" and do wear armor at times. I'm considering making a 12.5" pencil barrel fixed sight SBR. |
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Quoted: How did you engrave it? A KP-9 with a CMMG Banshee upper would be interesting. I have a similar problem, between that and my scope's eye relief it's mounted allll the way out there. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I agree, but the pistol grip on the older ones is more comfortable to me. It's just a trade off and the odds are the features of the KEs I have already will outweigh the ergos of the older pistol grip for me. I'll most likely end up with a Black KE to go with my OD and FDE. I just need more trigger time with the newer ones. They're plastic - you can weld em w/ a soldering iron. But for some damn reason I want to SBR one. I just like the idea of an ultralight compact rifle with a fixed stock. I have plenty of SBRs already though. I think I might like to have another inch taken off of the stock like some companies used to do for the CavArms and GWACS MKIIs to drop it down a bit shorter than A1 length. I SBR'd one and put a Hahn top loading Colt SMG mag block, a 7" AR9 upper sporting a T2, and a SiCo 9Osprey on it for my wife. I run an 8.5oz Slash HeavyBuffer and regular carbine spring and it's a fun little AR9 with a good LOP and rear biased COG that's good for her. It's a fun little rifle. I SBR'd the KP-15 after hearing Russel say blowback 9mm hadn't been an issue, but prior to the KP-9 being released. Also gives me more options to get her a 5.56 upper built down the road should she start competing beyond PCC Steel matches. The A1 LOP is a little short for my 6'8" wingspan, but it's perfect for her. How did you engrave it? A KP-9 with a CMMG Banshee upper would be interesting. I have a similar problem, between that and my scope's eye relief it's mounted allll the way out there. Laser engraved on the underside of the trigger guard. Did it in ~10 passes going deeper each time. |
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Quoted: you also can't patent a distance measurement Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I am guessing since patents haven't came up in their discussion the patent may have been abandoned(fees weren't paid) or the patent is expired or a large part of it was/is. Manufacturing processes and procedures along with blueprints would absolutely be part of an IP lawsuit if that information was held by gwacs and was not transferred to another party without a contract or paper/email trail stating the authorized use of this IP. It was in the video and its in the filing documents KE Arms posted in this thread earlier. Nealon did not patent any of the cav arms mk 2 stuff. In fact, he freely shared everything (files, drawings, blueprints, etc) with the public, in part to bolster faith in a polymer lower. In the early 2000s, people were not sold on the idea of injection molded AR lowers. Hell, you apparently could even walk in off the street and eat pizza and help run the injection molding machines with them. I wish I'd known about all this. I'd have made a trip to hang out with them and make plastic fantastics. So not only were none of the "innovations" of cav arms mk 2 patented... nothing about it was patentable in the opinion of its designer. And if it wasn't patentable then, before the design was freely shared with public, it is definitely not patentable now. And its even worse in that they're trying to assert that they (GWACS) own the intellectual property rights to the A1 length of pull and a trap door buttstock. At least, this is my understanding of the claims/counter from the videos and documents I have seen. I am not a lawyer but it sure seems like "law-fare" to me. The A1 doesn't have A1 length of pull. It's got AR-15 R601 length of pull! That puts the development in 1959 or 1960. Unless you're Disney, patents don't last that long. I think my M77 RSM has the same length of pull. |
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Quoted: The A1 doesn't have A1 length of pull. It's got AR-15 R601 length of pull! That puts the development in 1959 or 1960. Unless you're Disney, patents don't last that long. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I am guessing since patents haven't came up in their discussion the patent may have been abandoned(fees weren't paid) or the patent is expired or a large part of it was/is. Manufacturing processes and procedures along with blueprints would absolutely be part of an IP lawsuit if that information was held by gwacs and was not transferred to another party without a contract or paper/email trail stating the authorized use of this IP. It was in the video and its in the filing documents KE Arms posted in this thread earlier. Nealon did not patent any of the cav arms mk 2 stuff. In fact, he freely shared everything (files, drawings, blueprints, etc) with the public, in part to bolster faith in a polymer lower. In the early 2000s, people were not sold on the idea of injection molded AR lowers. Hell, you apparently could even walk in off the street and eat pizza and help run the injection molding machines with them. I wish I'd known about all this. I'd have made a trip to hang out with them and make plastic fantastics. So not only were none of the "innovations" of cav arms mk 2 patented... nothing about it was patentable in the opinion of its designer. And if it wasn't patentable then, before the design was freely shared with public, it is definitely not patentable now. And its even worse in that they're trying to assert that they (GWACS) own the intellectual property rights to the A1 length of pull and a trap door buttstock. At least, this is my understanding of the claims/counter from the videos and documents I have seen. I am not a lawyer but it sure seems like "law-fare" to me. The A1 doesn't have A1 length of pull. It's got AR-15 R601 length of pull! That puts the development in 1959 or 1960. Unless you're Disney, patents don't last that long. Also, wouldn't an A1 pretty much have to have an A1 length of pull? It being an A1 and all? |
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Quoted: I'm a relatively short 5'11" and do wear armor at times. I'm considering making a 12.5" pencil barrel fixed sight SBR. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I agree, but the pistol grip on the older ones is more comfortable to me. It's just a trade off and the odds are the features of the KEs I have already will outweigh the ergos of the older pistol grip for me. I'll most likely end up with a Black KE to go with my OD and FDE. I just need more trigger time with the newer ones. They're plastic - you can weld em w/ a soldering iron. But for some damn reason I want to SBR one. I just like the idea of an ultralight compact rifle with a fixed stock. I have plenty of SBRs already though. I think I might like to have another inch taken off of the stock like some companies used to do for the CavArms and GWACS MKIIs to drop it down a bit shorter than A1 length. I SBR'd one and put a Hahn top loading Colt SMG mag block, a 7" AR9 upper sporting a T2, and a SiCo 9Osprey on it for my wife. I run an 8.5oz Slash HeavyBuffer and regular carbine spring and it's a fun little AR9 with a good LOP and rear biased COG that's good for her. It's a fun little rifle. I SBR'd the KP-15 after hearing Russel say blowback 9mm hadn't been an issue, but prior to the KP-9 being released. Also gives me more options to get her a 5.56 upper built down the road should she start competing beyond PCC Steel matches. The A1 LOP is a little short for my 6'8" wingspan, but it's perfect for her. I'm a relatively short 5'11" and do wear armor at times. I'm considering making a 12.5" pencil barrel fixed sight SBR. That’s pretty much the same 5.56 upper I’d do for my wife except with a T2 instead of irons. 11-12.5” pencil barrel with an A2 FH and thin, 9-10” MLOK HG just in case she shoots a match that needs a WML or IR laser down the line. |
Well shit. Guess I got to jump in on this as well. Walked in to the LGS and they were blowing out KP15 complete lowers for $84.99 each. Grabbed enough to get me a Delaware style visit. Didn’t need them, but with all the testimonials here about them I didn’t see how I could pass it up. Best deal on firearms related items I’ve seen in years. Built one into a 7.62x39 last night. Everything will sit and wait for the Midway or PSA $199 complete uppers I know we’ll see come Black Friday or sooner. $300 hand outs are nice to have laying around.
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Quoted: Well shit. Guess I got to jump in on this as well. Walked in to the LGS and they were blowing out KP15 complete lowers for $84.99 each. Grabbed enough to get me a Delaware style visit. Didn’t need them, but with all the testimonials here about them I didn’t see how I could pass it up. Best deal on firearms related items I’ve seen in years. Built one into a 7.62x39 last night. Everything will sit and wait for the Midway or PSA $199 complete uppers I know we’ll see come Black Friday or sooner. $300 hand outs are nice to have laying around. https://imgdump5.novarata.net/1isbdu.jpg I like the hell out of mine! Put a cheap PSA SS upper on it.16" midlength. It's my hurricane rifle,not much to rust. |
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Quoted: No existing patent was kinda what I was going for. Also, wouldn't an A1 pretty much have to have an A1 length of pull? It being an A1 and all? Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I am guessing since patents haven't came up in their discussion the patent may have been abandoned(fees weren't paid) or the patent is expired or a large part of it was/is. Manufacturing processes and procedures along with blueprints would absolutely be part of an IP lawsuit if that information was held by gwacs and was not transferred to another party without a contract or paper/email trail stating the authorized use of this IP. It was in the video and its in the filing documents KE Arms posted in this thread earlier. Nealon did not patent any of the cav arms mk 2 stuff. In fact, he freely shared everything (files, drawings, blueprints, etc) with the public, in part to bolster faith in a polymer lower. In the early 2000s, people were not sold on the idea of injection molded AR lowers. Hell, you apparently could even walk in off the street and eat pizza and help run the injection molding machines with them. I wish I'd known about all this. I'd have made a trip to hang out with them and make plastic fantastics. So not only were none of the "innovations" of cav arms mk 2 patented... nothing about it was patentable in the opinion of its designer. And if it wasn't patentable then, before the design was freely shared with public, it is definitely not patentable now. And its even worse in that they're trying to assert that they (GWACS) own the intellectual property rights to the A1 length of pull and a trap door buttstock. At least, this is my understanding of the claims/counter from the videos and documents I have seen. I am not a lawyer but it sure seems like "law-fare" to me. The A1 doesn't have A1 length of pull. It's got AR-15 R601 length of pull! That puts the development in 1959 or 1960. Unless you're Disney, patents don't last that long. Also, wouldn't an A1 pretty much have to have an A1 length of pull? It being an A1 and all? The A1 has an A1 pull. But the A1 did not define that length of pull. The same thing goes on with an A1 pistol grip. That's an R602 item that carries on into the R604 then R603 (I still don't know why the 604 predates the 603, you'd have to ask Colt.) BUT... I mention it because the A1 is more recent than the R601 and if they are trying to claim novelty for that length of pull in an AR they have to counter even more years than M16A1 (or M16 or XM16E1). With trapdoor brings it closer to today with it being introduced in 1973ish. |
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Gun Jesus weighs in. Anti-Gun Partisan Lawfare? GWACS Sues KE Arms et al. |