[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Law Suit, KE Arms, Karl InRange TV, GWACS CAV arms molds Brownells (Page 3 of 5)
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Quoted: Do patents need to be involved? How can a company legally claim ownership of IP without a patent or at least a copyright? I am guessing since patents haven’t came up in their discussion the patent may have been abandoned(fees weren’t paid) or the patent is expired or a large part of it was/is. Manufacturing processes and procedures along with blueprints would absolutely be part of an IP lawsuit if that information was held by gwacs and was not transferred to another party without a contract or paper/email trail stating the authorized use of this IP. |
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Quoted: I really wanted one for a relatively inexpensive lightweight build I was working on in 2020 (my second AR; I still only have two plus a stripped lower), but then I realized that to make it ban-compliant I'd have to use one of those silly kydex wraparound grip fin things which I refuse to use, since the pistol grip is integral with the lower. With a conventional lower there are other, much more ergonomic options and so I grabbed a couple of Anderson lowers, albeit at panic prices (everything cheaper was selling out too quickly and I grabbed what I could; price was double the pre-panic price). Now that our AWB may be gone in the near future, I may have to pick one up. Alaska has an AWB? |
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Quoted: They were doing God's work by offering an A1 length stock for peanut pricing.  Quoted: Quoted: CAVARMS was a great company They were doing God's work by offering an A1 length stock for peanut pricing. https://cavmfg.com/C1-Buttstock-C1.htm $25 |
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Quoted: I am guessing since patents haven’t came up in their discussion the patent may have been abandoned(fees weren’t paid) or the patent is expired or a large part of it was/is. Manufacturing processes and procedures along with blueprints would absolutely be part of an IP lawsuit if that information was held by gwacs and was not transferred to another party without a contract or paper/email trail stating the authorized use of this IP. Quoted: Quoted: Do patents need to be involved? How can a company legally claim ownership of IP without a patent or at least a copyright? I am guessing since patents haven’t came up in their discussion the patent may have been abandoned(fees weren’t paid) or the patent is expired or a large part of it was/is. Manufacturing processes and procedures along with blueprints would absolutely be part of an IP lawsuit if that information was held by gwacs and was not transferred to another party without a contract or paper/email trail stating the authorized use of this IP. A lot of the so called IP was distributed around before GWACS existed. I don't think CavArms and company ever even made any attempt at any sort patent or IP protection they we very open with what they where doing. |
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Hate that commie, tranny loving, satanist, anti-white fucko. Never cared about this overpriced idiotic rifle project either and the people that think it's the best rifle project since the original AR-15 are retarded. We already know what Stoner would do. He did it at Knights and Knights used that work to make the SR-15. |
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They probably didn’t maintain them. Vents wear out ejector pin holes wear out , bushings wear out, spruce bushings wear out, hot manifolds wear out, parting lines wear out, etc… There comes a point where it’s not feasible to to repair and a new mold makes more sense. Current new tool costs are very hig. They didn’t want to invest in a new multi 100k tool package. |
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Quoted: I had an early screw together cavarms that I wish I kept. I'm tempted to get a KE but I have way too many ARs Quoted: Quoted: I have lowers from all 3 manufacturers. I actually prefer the pistol grip on the CavArms/GWACS guns, but like the other features on the KE. I'm tempted to get a KE but I have way too many ARs I have a black GWACS already on my WWSD home build from several years ago. I also have an OD green and FDE KEs as well. The one CavArms lower I have is OD green. I have way too many ARs as well. Contrary to common wisdom around here, it is possible to have too many. |
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Quoted: Alaska has an AWB? Quoted: Quoted: I really wanted one for a relatively inexpensive lightweight build I was working on in 2020 (my second AR; I still only have two plus a stripped lower), but then I realized that to make it ban-compliant I'd have to use one of those silly kydex wraparound grip fin things which I refuse to use, since the pistol grip is integral with the lower. With a conventional lower there are other, much more ergonomic options and so I grabbed a couple of Anderson lowers, albeit at panic prices (everything cheaper was selling out too quickly and I grabbed what I could; price was double the pre-panic price). Now that our AWB may be gone in the near future, I may have to pick one up. Alaska has an AWB? He's talking about California's. |
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The WWSD idea sparked the cheaper Civil Defense gun which inspired me and a buddy to make budget versions on KE Arms lowers. We dubbed it "Behind Every Blade of Grass" because just about anyone can afford it if they can afford an AR at all; and assuming you can tolerate buying from PSA (which seems to be a problem with some).  So far they've proven to be decent little home builds. |
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Quoted: The WWSD idea sparked the cheaper Civil Defense gun which inspired me and a buddy to make budget versions on KE Arms lowers. We dubbed it "Behind Every Blade of Grass" because just about anyone can afford it if they can afford an AR at all; and assuming you can tolerate buying from PSA (which seems to be a problem with some). https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51265569500_ea718b7631_b.jpg So far they've proven to be decent little home builds. In a just world the founders of PSA would be getting the medal of freedom. |
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Quoted: I'm thinking of picking up a black KE. I wouldn't mind another black GWACS, but not if the owner is being a douche. I have a black GWACS already on my WWSD home build from several years ago. I also have an OD green and FDE KEs as well. The one CavArms lower I have is OD green. I have way too many ARs as well. Contrary to common wisdom around here, it is possible to have too many. |
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Quoted: I am guessing since patents haven’t came up in their discussion the patent may have been abandoned(fees weren’t paid) or the patent is expired or a large part of it was/is. Manufacturing processes and procedures along with blueprints would absolutely be part of an IP lawsuit if that information was held by gwacs and was not transferred to another party without a contract or paper/email trail stating the authorized use of this IP. It was in the video and its in the filing documents KE Arms posted in this thread earlier. Nealon did not patent any of the cav arms mk 2 stuff. In fact, he freely shared everything (files, drawings, blueprints, etc) with the public, in part to bolster faith in a polymer lower. In the early 2000s, people were not sold on the idea of injection molded AR lowers. Hell, you apparently could even walk in off the street and eat pizza and help run the injection molding machines with them. I wish I'd known about all this. I'd have made a trip to hang out with them and make plastic fantastics. So not only were none of the "innovations" of cav arms mk 2 patented... nothing about it was patentable in the opinion of its designer. And if it wasn't patentable then, before the design was freely shared with public, it is definitely not patentable now. And its even worse in that they're trying to assert that they (GWACS) own the intellectual property rights to the A1 length of pull and a trap door buttstock. At least, this is my understanding of the claims/counter from the videos and documents I have seen. I am not a lawyer but it sure seems like "law-fare" to me. |
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The length of pull and trap stock are prior art to the expired Colt patents at a minimum and I doubt they were ever patented with the M-16 patents. You can’t patent an idea that can be demonstrated as prior art. The whole 1960’s Colt prototype stock polymer lower hybrid destroys the patentability of the concept. All they would have to go on is to prove that some proprietary technical data was stolen or that a unique patented feature or features was infringed on. It strikes me as highly improbable that either could be possible. |
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Quoted: The WWSD idea sparked the cheaper Civil Defense gun which inspired me and a buddy to make budget versions on KE Arms lowers. We dubbed it "Behind Every Blade of Grass" because just about anyone can afford it if they can afford an AR at all; and assuming you can tolerate buying from PSA (which seems to be a problem with some). https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51265569500_ea718b7631_b.jpg So far they've proven to be decent little home builds. that is awesome! looks really good |
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Quoted: Nealon did not patent any of the cav arms mk 2 stuff. In fact, he freely shared everything (files, drawings, blueprints, etc) with the public, in part to bolster faith in a polymer lower. In the early 2000s, people were not sold on the idea of injection molded AR lowers. It seemed to me like their only chance was 'you signed an agreement before the previous owner showed you the IP we bought', provided the plaintiff could supply both the signed agreement and the purchase agreement that covered the drawings and files. But if those drawings and files were ever made public by somebody who owned the rights to them, good luck with that. |
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Quoted: So GWAC's claim is 1-Sean sells the mold to Russell. This transfers the related intellectual property to Russell. 2-Russell sells the mold to GWACS. This transfers the intellectual property to GWACs. 3-GWACs goes out of business 4-Russell, Karl and Ian design a new lower 5-GWACs rises from the grave despite dissolving the corporation (this guy from OK could somehow have GWAC's intellectual property. 6-GWACs sues over the new lower designed by Karl, Ian and Russell Intellectual property isn't my thing but 1-did GWAC's really obtain intellectual property related to the mold? 2-Do the current plaintiffs own that intellectual property? 3-what intellectual property is there? As Karl pointed out, Shawn himself didn't think there was anything to protect as this was existing technology. 4-how does the new design infringe on the cav arms intellectual property? Shawn's claim to fame is the integrated stock. Is that really "patentable" or otherwise protected? Do the plaintiffs really own Shawn's idea for an integrated stock? I've done a decent bit of patent and IP development work and I'm no patent lawyer but based on my semi expert opinion they don't own shit and they are in fact retarded. Even if they patented it I highly doubt it's defensible. Full disclosure I didn't watch the video and I know nothing other than reading this thread. |
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Quoted: The length of pull and trap stock are prior art to the expired Colt patents at a minimum and I doubt they were ever patented with the M-16 patents. You can’t patent an idea that can be demonstrated as prior art. The whole 1960’s Colt prototype stock polymer lower hybrid destroys the patentability of the concept. All they would have to go on is to prove that some proprietary technical data was stolen or that a unique patented feature or features was infringed on. It strikes me as highly improbable that either could be possible. Its simply an anti-gun lawsuit, that's why it lacks sanity. |
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Quoted: Alaska has an AWB? Quoted: Quoted: I really wanted one for a relatively inexpensive lightweight build I was working on in 2020 (my second AR; I still only have two plus a stripped lower), but then I realized that to make it ban-compliant I'd have to use one of those silly kydex wraparound grip fin things which I refuse to use, since the pistol grip is integral with the lower. With a conventional lower there are other, much more ergonomic options and so I grabbed a couple of Anderson lowers, albeit at panic prices (everything cheaper was selling out too quickly and I grabbed what I could; price was double the pre-panic price). Now that our AWB may be gone in the near future, I may have to pick one up. Alaska has an AWB? I work and am physically at this moment in Alaska. I live in California. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: CAVARMS was a great company They were doing God's work by offering an A1 length stock for peanut pricing. https://cavmfg.com/C1-Buttstock-C1.htm $25 This just made my day. 
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Quoted: The KE lower is vastly superior in every way. Quoted: Quoted: I'm thinking of picking up a black KE. I wouldn't mind another black GWACS, but not if the owner is being a douche. I have a black GWACS already on my WWSD home build from several years ago. I also have an OD green and FDE KEs as well. The one CavArms lower I have is OD green. I have way too many ARs as well. Contrary to common wisdom around here, it is possible to have too many. I just need more trigger time with the newer ones. 
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Quoted: I agree, but the pistol grip on the older ones is more comfortable to me. It's just a trade off and the odds are the features of the KEs I have already will outweigh the ergos of the older pistol grip for me. I'll most likely end up with a Black KE to go with my OD and FDE. I just need more trigger time with the newer ones. They're plastic - you can weld em w/ a soldering iron. 
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Quoted: They're plastic - you can weld em w/ a soldering iron. Quoted: Quoted: I agree, but the pistol grip on the older ones is more comfortable to me. It's just a trade off and the odds are the features of the KEs I have already will outweigh the ergos of the older pistol grip for me. I'll most likely end up with a Black KE to go with my OD and FDE. I just need more trigger time with the newer ones. They're plastic - you can weld em w/ a soldering iron.  But for some damn reason I want to SBR one. I just like the idea of an ultralight compact rifle with a fixed stock. I have plenty of SBRs already though. I think I might like to have another inch taken off of the stock like some companies used to do for the CavArms and GWACS MKIIs to drop it down a bit shorter than A1 length. |
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Quoted: Not with my shitty skills. You're the talented one here Lego Man. But for some damn reason I want to SBR one. I just like the idea of an ultralight compact rifle with a fixed stock. I have plenty of SBRs already though. I think I might like to have another inch taken off of the stock like some companies used to do for the CavArms and GWACS MKIIs to drop it down a bit shorter than A1 length. Ha! For that you want @BIgDAM |
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Quoted: I grew up around injection molding. I'm wondering how someone wears out a mold? You can easily damage one if you don't know what are doing (they can be repaired). But its next to impossible to wear out a mold. My dad had molds that were ran close to 24/7 for 30 years that were still running fine. |
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Quoted: Karl claims that new KE arms lower is not the same as the GWAC's/cavarms. Quoted: Quoted: Karl and Ian didn't design anything. They spec'd a home rifle build which included a GWACS-produced lower, and then put their name on a commercial build, inspired by their original home build, which included the KE Arms lower. |
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Quoted: Because he associates with commies and commie sympathizers and is suspect for being one himself. At least that's why I don't give him support. Quoted: Quoted: Why don't we like InRange? Because he associates with commies and commie sympathizers and is suspect for being one himself. At least that's why I don't give him support. |
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For the past 2 years we have been engaged in litigation with GWACS Armory centered around the KP-15 receiver. We believe the claims alleged by GWACS Armory to be false and their entire suit to be frivolous. Recently we’ve received many inquiries on how people can help support us in this litigation. The best way to help us fund this ongoing litigation is to purchase KE Arms products. Use code DEFEND2A25 to save 25% on KP-15 or KP-9 receivers purchased through KEArms.com KE Arms is an ardent defender of the second amendment. One of our goals has always been to make affordable quality firearms available to the firearms community. We appreciate the 2A Community and its support for KE Arms and its products. |
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Quoted: It was in the video and its in the filing documents KE Arms posted in this thread earlier. Nealon did not patent any of the cav arms mk 2 stuff. In fact, he freely shared everything (files, drawings, blueprints, etc) with the public, in part to bolster faith in a polymer lower. In the early 2000s, people were not sold on the idea of injection molded AR lowers. Hell, you apparently could even walk in off the street and eat pizza and help run the injection molding machines with them. I wish I'd known about all this. I'd have made a trip to hang out with them and make plastic fantastics. So not only were none of the "innovations" of cav arms mk 2 patented... nothing about it was patentable in the opinion of its designer. And if it wasn't patentable then, before the design was freely shared with public, it is definitely not patentable now. And its even worse in that they're trying to assert that they (GWACS) own the intellectual property rights to the A1 length of pull and a trap door buttstock. At least, this is my understanding of the claims/counter from the videos and documents I have seen. I am not a lawyer but it sure seems like "law-fare" to me. Quoted: Quoted: I am guessing since patents haven't came up in their discussion the patent may have been abandoned(fees weren't paid) or the patent is expired or a large part of it was/is. Manufacturing processes and procedures along with blueprints would absolutely be part of an IP lawsuit if that information was held by gwacs and was not transferred to another party without a contract or paper/email trail stating the authorized use of this IP. It was in the video and its in the filing documents KE Arms posted in this thread earlier. Nealon did not patent any of the cav arms mk 2 stuff. In fact, he freely shared everything (files, drawings, blueprints, etc) with the public, in part to bolster faith in a polymer lower. In the early 2000s, people were not sold on the idea of injection molded AR lowers. Hell, you apparently could even walk in off the street and eat pizza and help run the injection molding machines with them. I wish I'd known about all this. I'd have made a trip to hang out with them and make plastic fantastics. So not only were none of the "innovations" of cav arms mk 2 patented... nothing about it was patentable in the opinion of its designer. And if it wasn't patentable then, before the design was freely shared with public, it is definitely not patentable now. And its even worse in that they're trying to assert that they (GWACS) own the intellectual property rights to the A1 length of pull and a trap door buttstock. At least, this is my understanding of the claims/counter from the videos and documents I have seen. I am not a lawyer but it sure seems like "law-fare" to me. |
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Quoted: I wonder if the FDE one would take RIT dye to turn grey? Would like to match one up to my Geisselle mk 4 gov profile rail. Though I guess black and grey works, too. |
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Quoted: I think that, early on, when they were spending the better part (or more, I can't remember exactly) of a year formulating and testing the material the lower is made of, Russel said something about not painting/dying them. Bummer. I got good results dying pmags. Was hoping it was similar. |
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Quoted: For the past 2 years we have been engaged in litigation with GWACS Armory centered around the KP-15 receiver. We believe the claims alleged by GWACS Armory to be false and their entire suit to be frivolous. Recently we’ve received many inquiries on how people can help support us in this litigation. The best way to help us fund this ongoing litigation is to purchase KE Arms products. Use code DEFEND2A25 to save 25% on KP-15 or KP-9 receivers purchased through KEArms.com KE Arms is an ardent defender of the second amendment. One of our goals has always been to make affordable quality firearms available to the firearms community. We appreciate the 2A Community and its support for KE Arms and its products. It makes me sick when people get abused like this. As others said, Cav Arms got straight screwed by the ATF back in the day. Now GWACS is trying to use the legal system to screw yall over. This is why we can't have nice things.  eta: What's the skinny on dying ya'lls receivers with RIT dye? Definitely don't or "do at own risk?" |
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Quoted: For the past 2 years we have been engaged in litigation with GWACS Armory centered around the KP-15 receiver. We believe the claims alleged by GWACS Armory to be false and their entire suit to be frivolous. Recently we've received many inquiries on how people can help support us in this litigation. The best way to help us fund this ongoing litigation is to purchase KE Arms products. Use code DEFEND2A25 to save 25% on KP-15 or KP-9 receivers purchased through KEArms.com KE Arms is an ardent defender of the second amendment. One of our goals has always been to make affordable quality firearms available to the firearms community. We appreciate the 2A Community and its support for KE Arms and its products. I did not want to ask, But I am sure many of us will support you guys... Thank you |
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I’d be willing to bet Reed Oppenheimer‘s gun son is on here. I don’t know if Reed Oppenheimer(GWACS investor and the person that people are alleging is funding this lawsuit against KE) is a gun guy but I know at least one of his sons is a big gun guy and big time hunter. From what I can tell, Reed is a lefty when it comes to politics and I’m not entirely sure of his sons exact political beliefs but I think the gun son at least used to sit on both sides of the fence. The son is big into environmental and humanitarian causes but also big gun guy and huge hunter. I wouldn’t be surprised if Reed’s involvement in GWACS was partially his son‘s doing and his son was definitely involved in the company back when GWACS started. As far as people mentioning trying to boycott any companies Reed is a part of, I don’t think that’s going to do much good. A quick little genealogy search appears to show that Reed‘s father was Harold L. Oppenheimer of Kansas City, who founded Oppenheimer Industries Inc., a cattle and land management and investment company that was based in Kansas City. Linked article about Reed’s dad linked below. Reed’s Father’s(Harold’s) Step-father was Jules C. Stein, who founded and owned Music Corporation of America. MCA was a giant, multibillion dollar corporation back in the day and was the predecessor of, or owned, Universal Pictures, Universal Music, and NBCUniversal. I have no idea of Reed’s money but there appears to be massive generation wealth accumimated by his father and step-grandfather. If it’s any comparison, one of Reed’s brothers is a big philanthropist and art collector in Kansas City who apparently has purchased and donated 10+ million dollars in art to a local museum. Reed’s father https://content.time.com/time/subscriber/article/0,33009,844610,00.html Reed’s stepgrandfather https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jules_C._Stein |