[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Here's what Sig Sauer is going to in the immediate future regarding the P320 fiasco (Page 3 of 5)
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Sig is a huge trash filled dumpster at this point. I don’t have any interest in ever owning any of their pistols at this point. And if sig starts suing people over this, well then they can rot. I’ll talk mad shit at every opportunity if they start using lawfare to attempt to defend themselves over this mess. I don’t see that happening though. I think they are hoping this just goes away. |
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Quoted: Fuck Sig for hiring Ron Cohen, it's under his "leadership" that their boat is sinking. Yeah it’s shocking how often those types seem to fail upwards. Sig should have known better given his history at Kimber, but somehow they still hired him. It honestly makes no sense. |
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Quoted: Yeah yeah yeah, another P320 thread, but this is for the future actions of Sig. First, they're denying anything is wrong with the pistol. They claim that "universal holsters" are the reason, along with a plethora of other really dumb shit. So they're buying time. The brass knows full well they're going to fucked royally over with this crap eventually. Civilian sales and LE sales are small potatoes vs military sales, so they're going to stick to their unsafe guns in the meantime before it really fucks them in their ass. So what are they doing now? Buying time and lawsuits. They're hoping to be able to sue places like training centers into not banning the P320. They're going to shut down or else ridicule away people who show their guns fire without having the trigger pulled. Not only the do they think the lawsuits will help buy time, scare other places into not banning the P320, they're going to try to do a cash grab. This will placate the board of directors and also build up a bank for the eventual lawsuits. Which will come. Sig is praying that they get their production right so every P320 after the recent times will have nothing wrong with them. They'll pretend those "other" pistols were either fucked with or used a wrong holster. (Should have used a Sig one!) Once concrete evidence comes out that there are shoddy pistols, Sig will have to spin it as something done post sale. ANY attempt at a acknowledgement that they fucked up will cost them dearly. Having your pistol randomly go off will forever be tattooed on their foreheads for whenever they try to do a lucrative military sale. So their only option is to: Silence people talking about the problems Sue places that ban that pistol Keep on pretending nothing is wrong and there's "reasons" that are outside of their control for these issues The longer Sig can draw out any legal action will mean they can make more contract sales for large orders to militaries. The absolutely second it comes out they put a shit pistol on the market is going to hit them heavily. They're relying on Indian made parts to squeeze every ounce of profit out of these Volkspistoles that they have no other choice but to soldier on and pretend the Emperor has fancy clothes. Are you a sig gazpacho? |
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Quoted: Someone posted that Gander Mountain won't buy 320s. Ben Stoeger said he heard gunshops are offering $ 100 for a used 320 Quoted: Quoted: I havent seen many selling in the local fun shop Atlantic has them cheap they look brand new. |
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Quoted: I’m pointing out how all one has to do it look around Twitter, FB, IG, etc., and you’ll see the usual anti-semites claiming this happened because of some malignant motivation due to him being Jewish. The “Everystein, Singleberg, Timeowitz” garbage memes are posted anytime they think a Jew is plotting against the U.S. Cohen is probably just a normal bean-counting, cost-cutting asshole that typifies the downfall of numerous classic names in manufacturing. Not because Jews. I’ve literally not seen this anywhere, and I’m on social media a lot. |
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Quoted: I’m pointing out how all one has to do it look around Twitter, FB, IG, etc., and you’ll see the usual anti-semites claiming this happened because of some malignant motivation due to him being Jewish. The “Everystein, Singleberg, Timeowitz” garbage memes are posted anytime they think a Jew is plotting against the U.S. Cohen is probably just a normal bean-counting, cost-cutting asshole that typifies the downfall of numerous classic names in manufacturing. Not because Jews. You keep very strange company. Sig fanboys hate Chohen but it’s always his history at Kimber that’s brought up, not the origins of his last name |
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Quoted: Considering nothing happened to anyone at Boeing after 346 dead passengers+crew, SIG management is safe. Quoted: Quoted: Fuck Sig. What terrible leadership and hope someone gets indicted for criminal negligence. Considering nothing happened to anyone at Boeing after 346 dead passengers+crew, SIG management is safe. You might be right, but there is a difference. The .gov doesn’t really have an alternative to Boeing. There are plenty of alternatives to Sig. |
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I can see them doubling down (tripling down at this point) on the P320 because that’s what they do and so much has been invested in it. But I can also see them dropping it altogether and pushing more P365 variants, again because that’s what they do. I’m not sure what meaningful actions they could take for all the P320’s out there that wouldn’t wreck the company. But they seem to be doing a good job of wrecking it by doing nothing. Regardless, I doubt they’ll ever admit anything is wrong with their product. I personally would love some renewed attention on the SP2022. That’s a good, safe, polymer SIG handgun that’s been vetted. I’ve got one in my desk here at the office. But it’s not the sexy new striker-fired hotness and SIG has never really promoted it. But they’d probably screw that up too. |
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Quoted: I can see them doubling down (tripling down at this point) on the P320 because that’s what they do and so much has been invested in it. But I can also see them dropping it altogether and pushing more P365 variants, again because that’s what they do. I’m not sure what meaningful actions they could take for all the P320’s out there that wouldn’t wreck the company. But they seem to be doing a good job of wrecking it by doing nothing. Regardless, I doubt they’ll ever admit anything is wrong with their product. I personally would love some renewed attention on the SP2022. That’s a good, safe, polymer SIG handgun that’s been vetted. I’ve got one in my desk here at the office. But it’s not the sexy new striker-fired hotness and SIG has never really promoted it. But they’d probably screw that up too. A few years back Second Chance body armor was driven out of business because they had shipped a bunch of deeply flawed product (body armor that deteriorated in hot car trunks and stopped working) to law enforcement and they did not have the resources to replace all of it. Have to wonder if the P320 is a similar threat to Sig. Would it bankrupt them to take them all back? |
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Quoted: Older ones, yes. But, are the questionable Indian parts making their way into the new ones? Quoted: Quoted: There's nothing wrong with the P226. Older ones, yes. But, are the questionable Indian parts making their way into the new ones? I would argue the folded slide German built 226 is weaker and less robust than the newer milled slide models — especially so if we are talking early scalloped 226s. They said, I love my W German 226, but I’m not going to feed it a lot of +p. |
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Quoted: Someone posted that Gander Mountain won't buy 320s. Ben Stoeger said he heard gunshops are offering $ 100 for a used 320 Kygunco.com won't buy any SiG P320/M17/M18 pistols. I just tried. Edit to add. But they ARE still selling them. Hmm...... |
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Quoted: Yeah yeah yeah, another P320 thread, but this is for the future actions of Sig. First, they're denying anything is wrong with the pistol. They claim that "universal holsters" are the reason, along with a plethora of other really dumb shit. So they're buying time. The brass knows full well they're going to fucked royally over with this crap eventually. Civilian sales and LE sales are small potatoes vs military sales, so they're going to stick to their unsafe guns in the meantime before it really fucks them in their ass. So what are they doing now? Buying time and lawsuits. They're hoping to be able to sue places like training centers into not banning the P320. They're going to shut down or else ridicule away people who show their guns fire without having the trigger pulled. Not only the do they think the lawsuits will help buy time, scare other places into not banning the P320, they're going to try to do a cash grab. This will placate the board of directors and also build up a bank for the eventual lawsuits. Which will come. Sig is praying that they get their production right so every P320 after the recent times will have nothing wrong with them. They'll pretend those "other" pistols were either fucked with or used a wrong holster. (Should have used a Sig one!) Once concrete evidence comes out that there are shoddy pistols, Sig will have to spin it as something done post sale. ANY attempt at a acknowledgement that they fucked up will cost them dearly. Having your pistol randomly go off will forever be tattooed on their foreheads for whenever they try to do a lucrative military sale. So their only option is to: Silence people talking about the problems Sue places that ban that pistol Keep on pretending nothing is wrong and there's "reasons" that are outside of their control for these issues The longer Sig can draw out any legal action will mean they can make more contract sales for large orders to militaries. The absolutely second it comes out they put a shit pistol on the market is going to hit them heavily. They're relying on Indian made parts to squeeze every ounce of profit out of these Volkspistoles that they have no other choice but to soldier on and pretend the Emperor has fancy clothes. Any decent lawyer will advise their client to admit nothing while cases are pending. Get real. |
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Quoted: I think I'd need some convincing to believe that. Quoted: Quoted: Civilian sales and LE sales are small potatoes vs military sales, Correct. I know SIG has parroted this line, but if LE and civilian sales were a small percentage, they wouldn't have sole the M17/18 to the .mil at essentially cost |
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Quoted: Correct. I know SIG has parroted this line, but if LE and civilian sales were a small percentage, they wouldn't have sole the M17/18 to the .mil at essentially cost Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Civilian sales and LE sales are small potatoes vs military sales, Correct. I know SIG has parroted this line, but if LE and civilian sales were a small percentage, they wouldn't have sole the M17/18 to the .mil at essentially cost H&K spouts the same crap. It is BS, designed to make boot lickers want the product more. I own many H&K and Sig products, but that marketing line is tired. I think we have established that you can't rely on the government contracting process as a proxy for doing your own research and testing on which firearms to rely on. |
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Quoted: I have 2 Sigs and I think I will be trading the off as soon as I can get to the gun shop. That company is trash now. I have two Sigs, one since 1989. I intend to enjoy them for many years to come. You are no prophet. Go ahead and dump them. Someone else will buy them at a bargain price and own a great gun. How long did it take for Remington to fix the Model 700? Everyone raved about it. People still own them. The 1911 was defective from the beginning. Still, we fought two World Wars and countless other conflicts. Tens of thousands of police carried it too. It wasn't until the Model 80 series that the problem was fixed. Many still complained, but snapped them up all the same. However, you risk your life on GD if you badmouth it. |
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Quoted: Fuse? Quoted: Quoted: They already make a version for the Taiwanese military. It's pretty cool. ETA: Now I can't find a link to it. Maybe it was just being evaluated? Or I'm just getting senile.  Fuse? Maybe, I'm not sure. It was being described as a duty/service pistol for smaller stature individuals. |
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Quoted:[/[b]b] The 1911 was defective from the beginning. Still, we fought two World Wars and countless other conflicts. Tens of thousands of police carried it too. It wasn't until the Model 80 series that the problem was fixed. The part in red is flat out WRONG. Some nimrods here on GD keep spouting this shit, and there is NO substantial body of evidence to support it. The “Series 80” pistols were developed to APPEASE LAWYERS, not because the original 1911 design suffered from NDs due to being dropped. People keep spouting this bullshit based on visual observations of the 1911 design, NOT based on REAL FIELD DATA. BY THE WAY, THERE ARE NUMEROUS other auto loading pistols that have the same design for the firing pin as the 1911 pattern, and no one in screaming about their safety. |
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Quoted: Hearing/seeing the same in Kentucky. Quoted: Quoted: Someone posted that Gander Mountain won't buy 320s. Ben Stoeger said he heard gunshops are offering $ 100 for a used 320 Hearing/seeing the same in Kentucky. Man, taking a $600 loss on a defective pistol sucks. |
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Its a shame. The 320 is a really good pistol overall, in terms of ergos and modularity. I have one that has been a joy to shoot and is stupid accurate along with the flat trigger being very friendly to run quickly on drills. Its a solid pistol. That said, there is something going on with the NDs. They need to fix it. I would bet some kind of MIM tolerance stack issue. |
| People defending SIG realize they earned their shit reputation right? For a long time they've treated the public as their R&D development team releasing new products as quickly as possible to maximize profits meanwhile making iterative changes to their products when real world testing reveals their design failures. They often don't bother telling the public either leaving users to discover their gun randomly breaking when a poorly engineered/spec'd part fails. This won't be the first time agencies have dropped SIG products when they were found to be deficient. They seem to follow the same playbook every time and yet we're surprised when it happens again. |
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SIG USA is going to go bankrupt. The lawsuits are going to bury them, the brand is toxic, and all government procurement is political. Pretty hard to get Congress to support a company that has killed a service member. They'll get bought up by some other military industrial complex, and become American Small Arms, a division of General Dynamics. Ron Cohen will probably become CEO, and then kill some more people. |
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Quoted: We decided to ride ourselves of them this week; we won't buy used, and we won't order unless the customer specifically requests it. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Someone posted that Gander Mountain won't buy 320s. Ben Stoeger said he heard gunshops are offering $ 100 for a used 320 Two of my local places won't buy them used at all and haven't been selling them new. We decided to ride ourselves of them this week; we won't buy used, and we won't order unless the customer specifically requests it. Large range I was a member of when I lived in FL just announced no P320s on the range or in any of their classes. |
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Quoted: Even if there were no issues with the 320 I have no idea why anyone would buy one over a Glock, Walther, or M&P. The M&P is awesome, but I would choose a 320 over a Glock all day every day. Its just more user friendly and ergonomic. Glocks are simply hard to shoot well, beyond a basic level. Glocks are intolerant of any flaw in technique and a constant struggle to run fast without having to readjust grip or similar. In a previous life, I could see the scores of years of LEOs from various agencies and what gun they carried. Agencies with Glocks generally had high pass rates, but lower scores. Agencies with Sigs generally had higher scores on average. My guess was that it was due to the ergos and natural POA/POI on the guns. YMMV. |
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Quoted: How did that m18 fire? Especially with manual safety? P320 series manual "safety" only blocks the movement of the trigger bar thus the trigger itself. It does not block the dropping of the sear like in a 1911. Functionally it is no different than a trigger dingus. |
Sig is doubling down on stupid  the WA LE Academy pulled them from service in February so Sig just filed a lawsuit Sig Sauer, an American company headquartered in New Hampshire, according to the lawsuit, is suing Washington’s academy to reverse its ban, claiming it’s unnecessary and not well grounded in fact or law. It also wants to block the executive director of the training commission from making public statements about the pistol outside the scope of her duties. https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/gunmaker-sues-washingtons-police-academy-over-p320-pistol-ban/3PRTWPMBFNCJDA2GJE5I4QDPDU/ |
| I still maintain that in 2025 offering a "modern" pistol with the bore axis of the P320 is laughable. The bore axis is higher than any of its peers and the fact that it became so adopted to begin with shows how random the civilian market is when selecting pistols. Sig themselves made it even more comical by introducing the P365 in parallel, now with essentially full size Macro and Fuse options. The P320 is dimensioned like a brick, and the fact that the P320 with it's bulk and high bore axis ALSO suffers from such a catastrophic flaw such as this is inexcusable. I have a hard time believing the P320 and P365 are even made by the same company. They had to have bought one design from someone else as there's just no way I believe the same engineers managed to cram so many features into the P365, but dropped the ball so terribly with the P320... |
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Quoted: Sig is doubling down on stupid the WA LE Academy pulled them from service in February so Sig just filed a lawsuit https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/gunmaker-sues-washingtons-police-academy-over-p320-pistol-ban/3PRTWPMBFNCJDA2GJE5I4QDPDU/ Quoted: Sig is doubling down on stupid the WA LE Academy pulled them from service in February so Sig just filed a lawsuit Sig Sauer, an American company headquartered in New Hampshire, according to the lawsuit, is suing Washington’s academy to reverse its ban, claiming it’s unnecessary and not well grounded in fact or law. It also wants to block the executive director of the training commission from making public statements about the pistol outside the scope of her duties. https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/gunmaker-sues-washingtons-police-academy-over-p320-pistol-ban/3PRTWPMBFNCJDA2GJE5I4QDPDU/ That will sure help with new agency sales. |
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Poor ol' Jrs93Accord...a few months ago he was bragging about his 320 collection. At that point he had around 20 of them. . In every 320 thread, I keep asking the same question- why on earth would anyone with the funds and freedom to purchase a handgun ever pick the 320 over any of its competitors?? |
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Quoted: I have always liked Sig metal DA/SA pistols. The ones I have owned and shot were all 100% reliable and accurate, and they feel like quality. Quoted: Quoted: One of these days I need to post all my Sigs in one photo just to see how many people here get frothy over it. I have always liked Sig metal DA/SA pistols. The ones I have owned and shot were all 100% reliable and accurate, and they feel like quality. The old school SIG-Sauer HGs were greatness. The problem here is SIG-USA executive decision-making. American style management "leadership" are aces at bringing down once viable & aloft business organizations. |
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Quoted: They aren't making any money on sales to the US military. They are almost giving them away. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Civilian sales and LE sales are small potatoes vs military sales, They aren't making any money on sales to the US military. They are almost giving them away. $180/unit |
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Quoted: I think it has a lot more to do with him torpedoing two high tier gun companies than his last name Theres been a lot of warranted and unwarranted criticisms of Sig recently Congrats on being the first person ive seen to make it about jewish nonsense Was he really arrested and jailed in Germany for exporting their guns to Columbia? |