Warning

 

Close
Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Cancel Confirm
AR15.COM
Previous Page
/ 4
Next Page
3/7/2019 10:01:36 PM EDT
[#1]
The next AWB will be a, "features," ban... Because that is all an AWB is.

Magazine capacity.

Pistol grip.

Remember... Trump could have, "banned," the manufacture of bumptocks.

No... Trump banned the *ownership* and *possession* of bumpstocks.

Next school shooting with an AR, Trump and Democrats will go after magazine capacity, then pistol grips, then flash hiders...

The, "NY Compliant," gun will be a thing...
3/7/2019 10:05:44 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote History
Quoted:
Excellent article. While we're aware of the horrible precedent this has set and understand that it will be abused again later, most won't care until it hits close to their home or wallet.
View Quote
Or freedom. When the  "Meh bumpstocks" are looking at the same choice come March 26th in the near future. They will face the same music with what ever the "leader" in charge deems acceptable for them to own.

Disgusting that individuals on a gun board spouting the same bs "sorry your girl lost" when anyone with a brain cell saw this coming.
3/7/2019 10:11:27 PM EDT
[#3]
I feel this is one of the most important rulings in a generation, maybe even in the modern history of this republic. If the courts let this bump stock ban stand as written, its a clear indication absolute tyranny and total lawlessness is just around the corner. This has little to do with bump stocks, its all about due process, the rule of established constitional law, basic property rights and just compensation.

It amazes me people still disbelieve the gov won't go after your 401K/IRAs when the next major financial crisis unfolds. Well, if the bump stock rulling stands it will be the legal precident they need to justify it and more.

If this is ruled "legal" hedge for what is eventually coming down the pike, its not going to be pretty.
3/7/2019 10:12:05 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote History
Quoted:
One of the few things obama got right. His lack of movement on gun control nationally makes me think he either remembered and respected the history of gun control and how it gutted the democrat party, or less likely he's very secretly one of us.
View Quote
Harry Reid is responsible for refusing to bring gun control bills to a vote for the majority of his tenure as speaker, and the majority of Obama's presidency.

Reid, for all his faults, understood that gun bans were a great way to lose power.
3/7/2019 10:15:14 PM EDT
[#5]
The Leftists and Anti-Trumpers can use this against him to great effect.
3/7/2019 10:17:05 PM EDT
[#6]
I brought up the same a while back long before Forbes did.

The Constitutional Risk Trump is Taking with the Bump Stock Ban
3/7/2019 10:19:52 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote History
Quoted:
Pandora's box for sure, text pasted, worth reading;

What's next on the ban by a stroke of a pen list. . . . . .


Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi recently warned Republicans that if a GOP president can declare a national emergency over a wall on the southern border, the next Democrat president could declare one over gun violence. Her threat envisioned future gun control actions without Congress. But that’s already happening—and it has made a shambles of constitutional lawmaking.

The Department of Justice (DOJ) issued the Bump Stock Type Devices Final Rule late last year. This criminal regulation retroactively bans ownership of bump stocks, an accessory that helps shooters fire semi-automatic weapons more quickly by bumping the trigger with their finger when the gun recoils.

When the 90-day compliance window closes on March 26, lawful purchasers of some 520,000 bump stocks must have either surrendered their devices or destroyed them. Absent judicial relief, this regulation will convert all remaining owners of bump stocks into felons without action by Congress.

But the various lawsuits pending against the rule are not about guns or gun rights. Rather, these suits ask whether DOJ may create new criminal laws without involving Congress. The Constitution’s answer is a firm no. New criminal laws must clear the twin constitutional hurdles of “bicameralism” (passage by both houses of Congress) and “presentment” (Presidential signature or veto override).

Even a staunch gun control advocate like Senator Dianne Feinstein has recognized that Congress must be the one to act here: “Until March 2018, ATF maintained that bump stocks could not be banned through administrative action. Legislation is necessary to ensure a ban is implemented and regulations are not tied up in court.” Likewise, the Obama Administration faced tremendous pressure from allies to ban bump stocks via regulation but decided that it could not lawfully do so unilaterally. A pen and a phone would not suffice for this.

Nevertheless, current policymakers have defined two allegedly ambiguous terms in the 1934 National Firearms Act in order to ban bump stocks. Despite 80+ years of clarity and dozens of federal cases deeming the statute unambiguous, DOJ is trying to create a loophole in the definition of “machinegun” to fit bump stocks into it. Usually it’s criminal defendants who try such stunts to exempt their machineguns from the ban. This time it’s DOJ claiming ambiguity—and eroding respect for the rule of law.

Worse yet, in this week’s case out of the federal district court in D.C., the judge invoked the Chevron doctrine in deferring to DOJ’s definition of the terms “single function of the trigger” and “automatically.” DOJ’s new definitions are awkward at best, but Chevron poses the more nettlesome problem. This embarrassing precedent tells federal judges to defer to the executive branch’s statutory interpretation whenever the judge decides that a statute is ambiguous and the agency’s interpretation is reasonable. There is not room here for a complete takedown of Chevron, so suffice it to say that the D.C. plaintiffs did not enjoy due process of law when their judge deferred to the other party in the case rather than providing her independent judgment.

Besides which, the Chevron doctrine should not even come into play where a criminal statute is concerned. The Rule of Lenity dictates construing ambiguity in a criminal statute in favor of defendants. And make no mistake; there will be defendants. DOJ has conceded in court that it will use these same definitions to go after any bump stock owners who hold onto their devices.

Therein lies a future injustice. It is practically certain that some number of lawful purchasers will not get the word that bump stocks were banned. They will show up at a gun range to fire one, be seen there by an ATF agent or other law enforcement official and get arrested. The penalty is up to 10 years in prison and a permanent ban on gun ownership. These innocent owners will have no reason to have anticipated a ban—at least not a retroactive one. When Congress banned machineguns themselves in 1986, it did not do so retroactively.

This fact raises two further questions. First, how can a statute that did not ban anything retroactively later be construed to authorize banning bump stocks retroactively? It cannot, at least not when interpreted reasonably. Perhaps the greatest indignity to the Constitution in these cases is the idea that a statute that quite deliberately did not ban machineguns retroactively can be rewritten later by a federal agency to ban bump stocks retroactively. DOJ—and the D.C. district court—rely on the fiction that the statute is ambiguous when it is just silent.

Second, were Congress to ban bump stocks, would it do so retroactively and with the same penalty structure as owning an actual machinegun? History says no, especially since Congress has tried and failed to ban bump stocks several times—and those bills were rarely retroactive.

But DOJ’s loopholing requires it to use the same penalty structure because DOJ knows that courts will not let it get away with altering the length of sentences. DOJ often assures that prosecutorial discretion will prevent injustice. Somehow trust in that is hard to muster when the Department is already mangling the Constitution to rewrite the statute.

Congress is generally not willing to turn law-abiding citizens into felons, because Congress has to face voters. Administrative agencies like ATF and DOJ face no voters and show no such qualms. Bump stock owners risk prison as a result. Everyone else risks the terrifying consequences of allowing DOJ to write criminal laws without Congress. After all, if DOJ can create the bump stock rule, what stops it from bypassing Congress to create criminal laws on other subjects?

Barrels of ink have been spilled criticizing the administration’s national emergency declaration to transfer some funds for building a wall on the southern border. The bump stock ban sets a far worse precedent, yet comparatively little alarm has been raised. No matter one’s feelings about gun control policy, everyone should oppose rapid-fire destruction of constitutional lawmaking. Our liberty is in jeopardy.
View Quote
Thanks for that.
3/7/2019 10:20:21 PM EDT
[#8]
Thanks for posting that excellent article.

IMO the NRA carries the burden of "blame" for promulgating the false narrative that bump fire stocks constitute illegal machine guns; but the burden of responsibility for acting on the NRA's suggestion lies entirely on The President.
3/7/2019 10:20:56 PM EDT
[#9]
What's most appalling to me is not that it is happening but the ease with which it is happening.

These people are truly ruling unchecked. We are nothing more than a tax base to them.
3/7/2019 10:25:37 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote History
Quoted:
QFT

Was trying to explain this to a family member (he is a Trump can do no wrong idiot) but he "hates" bump stocks and believes Trump when he says that they should be banned at all cost.

He is just not listening and seems dense (like many Trump at all cost supporters) to what a dangerous precedent that it puts in place.  He is also a HUGE NRA and Wounded Warrior supporter.

I do not own a bump stock and do not care for bump-firing,  just a waste of good ammo, IMHO.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Quote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
All you anti-Bumpsters...

Just change the word "bump stock" with "high capacity magazines"...because left unchecked, it will be sooner than you think.

all you guys who went out and raped credit cards and savings accounts buying lower receivers, you invested in vapor.
QFT

Was trying to explain this to a family member (he is a Trump can do no wrong idiot) but he "hates" bump stocks and believes Trump when he says that they should be banned at all cost.

He is just not listening and seems dense (like many Trump at all cost supporters) to what a dangerous precedent that it puts in place.  He is also a HUGE NRA and Wounded Warrior supporter.

I do not own a bump stock and do not care for bump-firing,  just a waste of good ammo, IMHO.
Plenty of those hardliners on here as well.
3/7/2019 10:27:23 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote History
Quoted:
Even Forbes has a better understanding of how hard Trump fucked us than the NRA and some arfcommers.
View Quote
Ayup
3/7/2019 10:28:31 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote History
Quoted:
He presents Obama as superior because Obama didn't ban bump stocks.  That's Not true.  Obama would have banned everything except for the fact that Obama was lazy and incompetent.
View Quote
Trump presented Obama as inferior because he COULDN'T get it done.

Think about that.
3/7/2019 10:30:09 PM EDT
[#13]
You'd have to be aiming at the ground to put the constitution in the cross hairs these days
3/7/2019 10:30:14 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote History
Quoted:
Those precedents were set decades ago.
Shifting definitions of "readily restored to shoot" and "sporting purpose" were approved by the courts every time the government saw fit to do so.
There is no difference in principle between those "re-interpretations" and this one.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Quote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
A lot of us have said from the beginning that it isn't about bump stocks, it's about the precedent (unconstitutional precedent) this President has established, if this is allowed to stand.
Those precedents were set decades ago.
Shifting definitions of "readily restored to shoot" and "sporting purpose" were approved by the courts every time the government saw fit to do so.
There is no difference in principle between those "re-interpretations" and this one.
Not the same thing, though both are extremely bad and dangerous precedents
3/7/2019 10:31:42 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote History
Quoted:
The Leftists and Anti-Trumpers can use this against him to great effect.
View Quote
Attached File
3/7/2019 10:33:29 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote History
Quoted:
You'd have to be aiming at the ground to put the constitution in the cross hairs these days
View Quote
It’s been going that way for what, 100years?
3/7/2019 10:35:25 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote History
Quoted:
All you anti-Bumpsters...

Just change the word "bump stock" with "high capacity magazines"...because left unchecked, it will be sooner than you think.

all you guys who went out and raped credit cards and savings accounts buying lower receivers, you invested in vapor.
View Quote
That’s a stretch.

They basically reclassified/redefined what it means to pull a trigger in a manner that now encapsulates bump stocks. So they didn’t ban anything new, MGs were already banned... they just used some rather tenuous logic to redefine bumpstocks as MGs.

What in the world would magazines be redefined as that is already prohibited federally? Machineguns? AOWs? Lol. Magazines themselves dont skate anywhere the definition of anything that’s regulated ... unlike bumpstocks which were always right at the edge of what constitutes a machine gun.

Bad ruling, terrible precedent, and bumpstocks aren’t MGs... but pretending that magazines will fall prey to the same tactic (with the current set of actual laws on the books) is behaving quite like Chicken Little.
3/7/2019 10:50:29 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote History
Quoted:
That’s a stretch.

They basically reclassified/redefined what it means to pull a trigger in a manner that now encapsulates bump stocks. So they didn’t ban anything new, MGs were already banned... they just used some rather tenuous logic to redefine bumpstocks as MGs.

What in the world would magazines be redefined as that is already prohibited federally? Machineguns? AOWs? Lol. Magazines themselves dont skate anywhere the definition of anything that’s regulated ... unlike bumpstocks which were always right at the edge of what constitutes a machine gun.

Bad ruling, terrible precedent, and bumpstocks aren’t MGs... but pretending that magazines will fall prey to the same tactic (with the current set of actual laws on the books) is behaving quite like Chicken Little.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Quote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
All you anti-Bumpsters...

Just change the word "bump stock" with "high capacity magazines"...because left unchecked, it will be sooner than you think.

all you guys who went out and raped credit cards and savings accounts buying lower receivers, you invested in vapor.
That’s a stretch.

They basically reclassified/redefined what it means to pull a trigger in a manner that now encapsulates bump stocks. So they didn’t ban anything new, MGs were already banned... they just used some rather tenuous logic to redefine bumpstocks as MGs.

What in the world would magazines be redefined as that is already prohibited federally? Machineguns? AOWs? Lol. Magazines themselves dont skate anywhere the definition of anything that’s regulated ... unlike bumpstocks which were always right at the edge of what constitutes a machine gun.

Bad ruling, terrible precedent, and bumpstocks aren’t MGs... but pretending that magazines will fall prey to the same tactic (with the current set of actual laws on the books) is behaving quite like Chicken Little.
They banned bumpstocks not because of some specific trigger-mechanics, but because they make the guns shoot too many bullets too quickly.  The proof of this is how badly/inaccurately they describe the mechanics of bump fire; they clearly don't care about the details, but they are very clear that it makes the gun shoot too rapidly for their tastes.  Okay, now what does a higher capacity magazine do compared to a lower capacity magazine?  Allow you to shoot more bullets more quickly than if you were reloading.  You know, the reason the anti's have always wanted them banned...which happens to be the exact same reason Trump is banning bump stocks.  It all comes back to the practical/usable rate of fire at the end of the day; that's what makes the gun scary and formidable to anti-gunners and the government.

If this fiat-ban is allowed to stand, then yes, a future/this president could issue an executive action to their AG to reclassify +10/etc round magazines as full-auto conversion kits, the same as lightning links & bump stocks.  Most likely they would start with readily-identifiable/vilifiable "drum" magazines, like Clinton did for 'assault' shotguns in the 90s.  The same public safety argument could likely be used to retire old vehicles lacking modern safety systems, engines/transmissions, emissions systems, or eventually self-driving systems I suppose.
3/7/2019 10:54:50 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote History
Quoted:
What's most appalling to me is not that it is happening but the ease with which it is happening.

These people are truly ruling unchecked. We are nothing more than a tax base to them.
View Quote
We are serfs to the lords and ladies.
3/7/2019 10:59:33 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote History
Quoted:
I am glad to read that there are groups putting up a strong fight against these erroneous decisions by the ATF, stripping away our rights.  Other than the NRA activism sticky, why is there not a forum dedicated to the other groups actually fighting for our rights? Hopefully there is one and I haven’t found it, but a single area with all of these court battles and the groups and people doing the fighting would be nice.  Thanks to GOA and NOLO for all they’re doing.
View Quote
This.

Mods?
3/7/2019 11:00:10 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote History
Quoted:
The Leftists and Anti-Trumpers can use this against him to great effect.
View Quote
I’m over him.  It’s become obvious that I overestimated the man.

On bump stocks, I didn’t get it before reading the Forbes piece in the OP.  I do now.
3/7/2019 11:01:44 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote History
Quoted:
One of the few things obama got right. His lack of movement on gun control nationally makes me think he either remembered and respected the history of gun control and how it gutted the democrat party, or less likely he's very secretly one of us.
View Quote
... or knew about the legal challenge something like this would bring. What Trump did is questionable legally. Surrendering with no compensation.
3/7/2019 11:04:15 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote History
Quoted:
What's most appalling to me is not that it is happening but the ease with which it is happening.

These people are truly ruling unchecked. We are nothing more than a tax base to them.
View Quote
Why not?We reelect a shit ton of them no matter what they do to us.

Rick Scott in Florida signs gun control,but we have to send him to the Senate anyway.Hell,Romney almost took the top slot,and was probably more pro gun than Trump.

"We" have already shown we have no balls when it comes to holding anti 2nd Amendment Republicans accountable-sam with the NRA.Gotta support the team no matter what.

Even if Trump gives us an AWB or mag ban in the next year or so,the Party faithful will be telling us how we still have to support him in 2020................
3/7/2019 11:05:18 PM EDT
[#24]
Good article.
3/7/2019 11:14:36 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote History
Quoted:
I’m over him.  It’s become obvious that I overestimated the man.

On bump stocks, I didn’t get it before reading the Forbes piece in the OP.  I do now.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Quote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
The Leftists and Anti-Trumpers can use this against him to great effect.
I’m over him.  It’s become obvious that I overestimated the man.

On bump stocks, I didn’t get it before reading the Forbes piece in the OP.  I do now.
@Cypselus - It's rare for someone to post about something actually changing their mind or position on something. Thank you for sharing that. Few are willing to change their point of view, and even fewer are willing to admit when they do so.

3/7/2019 11:16:31 PM EDT
[#26]
There was a video posted a while ago of a congress critter speaking on the floor about how legislative branch has gotten lazy and not ruffling feathers by allowing the alphabet agencies do the legislating for them.  making the point that ABC agencies don't have to answer to voters, the heads are appointed not voted in.  so they face no repercussions with their policies and enacting regulations which congress should only have the authority to do.  
If anyone remembers the video, please post It up.  I don't remember who it was that was speaking but it was worth the watch and a good assessment of what is goin on.
3/7/2019 11:16:44 PM EDT
[#27]
Perhaps the greatest indignity to the Constitution in these cases is the idea that a statute that quite deliberately did not ban machineguns retroactively can be rewritten later by a federal agency to ban bump stocks retroactively. DOJ—and the D.C. district court—rely on the fiction that the statute is ambiguous when it is just silent.

The above is from the link OP provided.  If one law is silent on a topic (for example machine gun laws being silent on interstate transportation of milk or cheese), and some agency decides that because the law was silent, they can then add anything or any changes they want, this logic would allow an agency to change laws on just about anything simply because a law is silent on an issue.

IOW, if the law on vehicle pollution emissions is silent on racing vehicle emissions, then DEQ could decide that they could add restrictions to any internal combustion engine just because the law was silent on it.  I think that will result in the bump stock restrictions being overturned, or sent back to the congress to deal with it.
3/7/2019 11:21:18 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote History
Quoted:
Those precedents were set decades ago.
Shifting definitions of "readily restored to shoot" and "sporting purpose" were approved by the courts every time the government saw fit to do so.
There is no difference in principle between those "re-interpretations" and this one.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Quote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
A lot of us have said from the beginning that it isn't about bump stocks, it's about the precedent (unconstitutional precedent) this President has established, if this is allowed to stand.
Those precedents were set decades ago.
Shifting definitions of "readily restored to shoot" and "sporting purpose" were approved by the courts every time the government saw fit to do so.
There is no difference in principle between those "re-interpretations" and this one.
Show me where an object was banned, by redefining an existing law,  and forced turn in or confiscation was ordered without compensation.

No, this is a new precedent. Thanks DJT. I hope you lose in 2020.
3/7/2019 11:30:47 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote History
Quoted:
Why not?We reelect a shit ton of them no matter what they do to us.

Rick Scott in Florida signs gun control,but we have to send him to the Senate anyway.Hell,Romney almost took the top slot,and was probably more pro gun than Trump.

"We" have already shown we have no balls when it comes to holding anti 2nd Amendment Republicans accountable-sam with the NRA.Gotta support the team no matter what.

Even if Trump gives us an AWB or mag ban in the next year or so,the Party faithful will be telling us how we still have to support him in 2020................
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Quote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
What's most appalling to me is not that it is happening but the ease with which it is happening.

These people are truly ruling unchecked. We are nothing more than a tax base to them.
Why not?We reelect a shit ton of them no matter what they do to us.

Rick Scott in Florida signs gun control,but we have to send him to the Senate anyway.Hell,Romney almost took the top slot,and was probably more pro gun than Trump.

"We" have already shown we have no balls when it comes to holding anti 2nd Amendment Republicans accountable-sam with the NRA.Gotta support the team no matter what.

Even if Trump gives us an AWB or mag ban in the next year or so,the Party faithful will be telling us how we still have to support him in 2020................
Yep, direct result of the lesser of two evils voting. Why keep playing the same old losing game, over and over and over again.
3/7/2019 11:33:01 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote History
Quoted:
There was a video posted a while ago of a congress critter speaking on the floor about how legislative branch has gotten lazy and not ruffling feathers by allowing the alphabet agencies do the legislating for them.  making the point that ABC agencies don't have to answer to voters, the heads are appointed not voted in.  so they face no repercussions with their policies and enacting regulations which congress should only have the authority to do.  
If anyone remembers the video, please post It up.  I don't remember who it was that was speaking but it was worth the watch and a good assessment of what is goin on.
View Quote
@clayvt  This one?

[youtube]https://youtu.be/zhRGzr2LMYo[/youtube]
3/7/2019 11:34:15 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote History
not that one.  it was certainly from the floor.  
but ill give this one a watch
3/7/2019 11:45:05 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote History
Quoted:
That’s a stretch.

They basically reclassified/redefined what it means to pull a trigger in a manner that now encapsulates bump stocks. So they didn’t ban anything new, MGs were already banned... they just used some rather tenuous logic to redefine bumpstocks as MGs.

What in the world would magazines be redefined as that is already prohibited federally? Machineguns? AOWs? Lol. Magazines themselves dont skate anywhere the definition of anything that’s regulated ... unlike bumpstocks which were always right at the edge of what constitutes a machine gun.

Bad ruling, terrible precedent, and bumpstocks aren’t MGs... but pretending that magazines will fall prey to the same tactic (with the current set of actual laws on the books) is behaving quite like Chicken Little.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Quote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
All you anti-Bumpsters...

Just change the word "bump stock" with "high capacity magazines"...because left unchecked, it will be sooner than you think.

all you guys who went out and raped credit cards and savings accounts buying lower receivers, you invested in vapor.
That’s a stretch.

They basically reclassified/redefined what it means to pull a trigger in a manner that now encapsulates bump stocks. So they didn’t ban anything new, MGs were already banned... they just used some rather tenuous logic to redefine bumpstocks as MGs.

What in the world would magazines be redefined as that is already prohibited federally? Machineguns? AOWs? Lol. Magazines themselves dont skate anywhere the definition of anything that’s regulated ... unlike bumpstocks which were always right at the edge of what constitutes a machine gun.

Bad ruling, terrible precedent, and bumpstocks aren’t MGs... but pretending that magazines will fall prey to the same tactic (with the current set of actual laws on the books) is behaving quite like Chicken Little.
Then call me Chicken Little.
3/7/2019 11:53:42 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote History
Quoted:
They banned bumpstocks not because of some specific trigger-mechanics, but because they make the guns shoot too many bullets too quickly.  The proof of this is how badly/inaccurately they describe the mechanics of bump fire; they clearly don't care about the details, but they are very clear that it makes the gun shoot too rapidly for their tastes.  Okay, now what does a higher capacity magazine do compared to a lower capacity magazine?  Allow you to shoot more bullets more quickly than if you were reloading.  You know, the reason the anti's have always wanted them banned...which happens to be the exact same reason Trump is banning bump stocks.  It all comes back to the practical/usable rate of fire at the end of the day; that's what makes the gun scary and formidable to anti-gunners and the government.

If this fiat-ban is allowed to stand, then yes, a future/this president could issue an executive action to their AG to reclassify +10/etc round magazines as full-auto conversion kits, the same as lightning links & bump stocks.  Most likely they would start with readily-identifiable/vilifiable "drum" magazines, like Clinton did for 'assault' shotguns in the 90s.  The same public safety argument could likely be used to retire old vehicles lacking modern safety systems, engines/transmissions, emissions systems, or eventually self-driving systems I suppose.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Quote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
All you anti-Bumpsters...

Just change the word "bump stock" with "high capacity magazines"...because left unchecked, it will be sooner than you think.

all you guys who went out and raped credit cards and savings accounts buying lower receivers, you invested in vapor.
That’s a stretch.

They basically reclassified/redefined what it means to pull a trigger in a manner that now encapsulates bump stocks. So they didn’t ban anything new, MGs were already banned... they just used some rather tenuous logic to redefine bumpstocks as MGs.

What in the world would magazines be redefined as that is already prohibited federally? Machineguns? AOWs? Lol. Magazines themselves dont skate anywhere the definition of anything that’s regulated ... unlike bumpstocks which were always right at the edge of what constitutes a machine gun.

Bad ruling, terrible precedent, and bumpstocks aren’t MGs... but pretending that magazines will fall prey to the same tactic (with the current set of actual laws on the books) is behaving quite like Chicken Little.
They banned bumpstocks not because of some specific trigger-mechanics, but because they make the guns shoot too many bullets too quickly.  The proof of this is how badly/inaccurately they describe the mechanics of bump fire; they clearly don't care about the details, but they are very clear that it makes the gun shoot too rapidly for their tastes.  Okay, now what does a higher capacity magazine do compared to a lower capacity magazine?  Allow you to shoot more bullets more quickly than if you were reloading.  You know, the reason the anti's have always wanted them banned...which happens to be the exact same reason Trump is banning bump stocks.  It all comes back to the practical/usable rate of fire at the end of the day; that's what makes the gun scary and formidable to anti-gunners and the government.

If this fiat-ban is allowed to stand, then yes, a future/this president could issue an executive action to their AG to reclassify +10/etc round magazines as full-auto conversion kits, the same as lightning links & bump stocks.  Most likely they would start with readily-identifiable/vilifiable "drum" magazines, like Clinton did for 'assault' shotguns in the 90s.  The same public safety argument could likely be used to retire old vehicles lacking modern safety systems, engines/transmissions, emissions systems, or eventually self-driving systems I suppose.
I know WHY they banned them. Like you mentioned, the too many pews in too short of a time.

I was talking about HOW they banned bumpstocks. They didn't just say, Bumpstocks shoot fast like machineguns so they're illegal." Bumpstocks were on the raw edge of being legal in how the ATF originally determined their functionality as it applied to "single function of the trigger". They just "clarified" what function of the trigger actually meant and "analyzed" the operation of a bumpstock and claimed the continuous application of the shooters force against the protrusion on the stock constituted a single function of the trigger. Wham, bam, thank you ma'am... it's a Machinegun. I ain't saying it was right, but they were at least able to try and pin it on something.

I know WHY they want to ban large magazines... but there is a HUGE hurdle of how to do it. They can't just say, "They let you shoot fast so they're a machinegun." There has t be some sort of categorical/technical reason they're being classified as SOMETHING already banned. So tell me, what is it? HOW the magazines get banned.
3/7/2019 11:57:35 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote History
Quoted:

I know WHY they banned them. Like you mentioned, the too many pews in too short of a time.

I was talking about HOW they banned bumpstocks. They didn't just say, Bumpstocks shoot fast like machineguns so they're illegal." Bumpstocks were on the raw edge of being legal in how the ATF originally determined their functionality as it applied to "single function of the trigger". They just "clarified" what function of the trigger actually meant and "analyzed" the operation of a bumpstock and claimed the continuous application of the shooters force against the protrusion on the stock constituted a single function of the trigger. Wham, bam, thank you ma'am... it's a Machinegun.

I know WHY they want to ban large magazines... but there is a HUGE hurdle of how to do it. They can't just say, "They let you shoot fast so they're a machinegun." There has t be some sort of categorical/technical reason they're being classified as SOMETHING already banned. So tell me, what is it? HOW the magazines get banned.
View Quote
I'm more worried about them declaring AR lowers to be machinegun lowers than a declaration that magazines are machineguns.
3/8/2019 12:01:01 AM EDT
[#35]
The bump stock rule is wrong for reasons unrelated to the 2nd amendment and firearms entirely.

Separately, it is wrong for 2nd amendment reasons.

Make no mistake about it, bump stocks can be legally banned by congress, at least to the extent of newly produced bump stocks. If you disagree with that, you're going to need to get FOPA (or at least 922(o)) overturned to stand a fighting chance in the courts.

The executive branch lacks, or should lack, the legal authority to ban them unilaterally. That is all this is about. Not whether bump stocks are good or bad, or whether you want them or not, or whether they serve a purpose or not. If the executive branch has free reign to rewrite what falls under NFA and 922(o) and what doesn't, then everything is at risk. Full capacity magazines, scoped rifles, semi automatics... nothing is sacred.

Should we win in court and defeat the ban, we will likely still lose bump stocks shortly thereafter. Congress will bargain them away for a better parking spot or 50 meters of border wall or something else. Even so, we must endeavor to do our part in preserving the balance of power between the branches of government. We're the good guys, we are the ones that abide by the laws and ask nothing more than for others to do the same.
3/8/2019 12:02:38 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote History
Quoted:
I'm more worried about them declaring AR lowers to be machinegun lowers than a declaration that magazines are machineguns.
View Quote
Much more plausible and less of a stretch than them pulling a Trumpstock  stunt with magazines.
3/8/2019 12:17:22 AM EDT
[#37]
If the bump stock ban gets up to SCOTUS, Roberts writes the opinion and in it overturns the ban and Chevron, I'm probably going to lose my account for ceaselessly mocking a lifer.
3/8/2019 12:18:05 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote History
Quoted:
If the bump stock ban gets up to SCOTUS, Roberts writes the opinion and in it overturns the ban and Chevron, I'm probably going to lose my account for ceaselessly mocking a lifer.
View Quote
I don't think you have to worry about that.
3/8/2019 12:28:10 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote History
Quoted:
The bump stock rule is wrong for reasons unrelated to the 2nd amendment and firearms entirely.

Separately, it is wrong for 2nd amendment reasons.

Make no mistake about it, bump stocks can be legally banned by congress, at least to the extent of newly produced bump stocks. If you disagree with that, you're going to need to get FOPA (or at least 922(o)) overturned to stand a fighting chance in the courts.

The executive branch lacks, or should lack, the legal authority to ban them unilaterally. That is all this is about. Not whether bump stocks are good or bad, or whether you want them or not, or whether they serve a purpose or not. If the executive branch has free reign to rewrite what falls under NFA and 922(o) and what doesn't, then everything is at risk. Full capacity magazines, scoped rifles, semi automatics... nothing is sacred.

Should we win in court and defeat the ban, we will likely still lose bump stocks shortly thereafter. Congress will bargain them away for a better parking spot or 50 meters of border wall or something else. Even so, we must endeavor to do our part in preserving the balance of power between the branches of government. We're the good guys, we are the ones that abide by the laws and ask nothing more than for others to do the same.
View Quote
3/8/2019 12:35:59 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote History
Quoted:
All you anti-Bumpsters...

Just change the word "bump stock" with "high capacity magazines"...because left unchecked, it will be sooner than you think.

all you guys who went out and raped credit cards and savings accounts buying lower receivers, you invested in vapor.
View Quote
3/8/2019 1:08:27 AM EDT
[#41]
Quoted:
A lot of us have said from the beginning that it isn't about bump stocks, it's about the precedent (unconstitutional precedent) this President has established, if this is allowed to stand.
View Quote
Quoted:
Even Forbes has a better understanding of how hard Trump fucked us than the NRA and some arfcommers.
View Quote
Where's all the, "Fuck them toys," people?

Make no mistake, the next step will be reinterpreting semi-autos as "readily restorable" machine guns because of all the ambiguity surrounding that.
3/8/2019 1:19:18 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote History
Quoted:
Show me where an object was banned, by redefining an existing law,  and forced turn in or confiscation was ordered without compensation.

No, this is a new precedent. Thanks DJT. I hope you lose in 2020.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Quote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
A lot of us have said from the beginning that it isn't about bump stocks, it's about the precedent (unconstitutional precedent) this President has established, if this is allowed to stand.
Those precedents were set decades ago.
Shifting definitions of "readily restored to shoot" and "sporting purpose" were approved by the courts every time the government saw fit to do so.
There is no difference in principle between those "re-interpretations" and this one.
Show me where an object was banned, by redefining an existing law,  and forced turn in or confiscation was ordered without compensation.

No, this is a new precedent. Thanks DJT. I hope you lose in 2020.
What about Drop-in auto sears and Akins accelerator.  Were owners of those compensated?
3/8/2019 1:32:12 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote History
Quoted:

What about Drop-in auto sears and Akins accelerator.  Were owners of those compensated?
View Quote
IIRC, DIAS were covered by a change in US code.

Akins was somewhat similar,  but owners were told to throw away the spring, they got to keep the rest.
3/8/2019 1:42:24 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote History
Quoted:
Yup.

And done at the direction of our POTUS.
Trump has done a lot of good things but he royally fucked this whole thing up.

Not that legislation by regulation is anything new but....
Hopefully a legal challenge short circuits this whole process and maybe even results in collateral damage to things like the NFA and state level AWBs.
Not holding my breath but....
View Quote
Amen. From your lips to God's ears.

This is easily the worst thing Trump has done while in office.
3/8/2019 1:43:55 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote History
Quoted: Disgusting that individuals on a gun board spouting the same bs "sorry your girl lost" when anyone with a brain cell saw this coming.
View Quote
This. Fuckers spouting this make me fucking sick. Probably being spouted by a bunch of Fudds in disguise that really voted for Shillary. The whole Trumpstock precident is being ignored to be the first to sound like one of the cool kids. Hope you enjoy your 2A evaporating.
3/8/2019 1:44:29 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote History
Quoted:
One of the few things obama got right. His lack of movement on gun control nationally makes me think he either remembered and respected the history of gun control and how it gutted the democrat party, or less likely he's very secretly one of us.
View Quote
Dude....
3/8/2019 1:49:15 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote History
Quoted:
Yup. We're very quickly reaching the point where everything is illegal at the merest breath from those in power.

Thankfully, that's also the point where you're in for a penny, in for a pound... and MGs will be very common indeed. Why not?
View Quote
Mike Singletary My Kind of Party


After the first one, all the rest are free.
3/8/2019 2:31:57 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote History
Quoted:
Dude....
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Quote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
One of the few things obama got right. His lack of movement on gun control nationally makes me think he either remembered and respected the history of gun control and how it gutted the democrat party, or less likely he's very secretly one of us.
Dude....
My personal theory is that Obama didn't heavily pursue gun control because he wanted to give his little revolutionaries a chance to arm up.

And look what we've got now...

3/8/2019 2:32:27 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote History
Quoted:
One of the few things obama got right. His lack of movement on gun control nationally makes me think he either remembered and respected the history of gun control and how it gutted the democrat party, or less likely he's very secretly one of us.
View Quote
Obama's mission WAS to gut the Democrat Party because it wasn't left enough. They lost over a thousand seats nationwide while he was president and have gone completely batshit since. It is not the party of Ted Kennedy and the Clinton's anymore. Also remember that they tried for mag bans and registration after Sandy Hook but didn't have Congressional support.
3/8/2019 7:37:53 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote History
Quoted:
Fucking horrible precedent.
View Quote
And it's exactly this that some people don't seem to understand and just post "muh bump stock" because they are so clever.

Sign up to continue the discussion

Create a free account to share your thoughts, follow topics, and connect with the AR15.COM community.

Already a member? Sign In

Previous Page
/ 4
Next Page