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Quoted: The SCAR is also considered to be way overgassed like an AK compared to an M4. It's all compromises. Everything is overgassed that runs well when it is full of mud, is never cleaned, hasn't had parts replaced since OEF III. But that has nothing to do with the point I was making. One of these things becomes a 673 dollar hand grenade. The other will clear the obstruction and still function. |
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Quoted: Everything is overgassed that runs well when it is full of mud, is never cleaned, hasn't had parts replaced since OEF III. But that has nothing to do with the point I was making. One of these things becomes a 673 dollar hand grenade. The other will clear the obstruction and still function. All true. Just a never mentioned detail that I... wanted to mention. |
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Quoted: I'm going to let you in on a little secret. Mostly cause I dont work there anymore. If you are paying attention, their military team worked on a new version. If I were a betting man, I would say that it's about to drop.  Nah. No rumblings in the industry/LE sector, but: Attached File |
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Perusing the FN America website. I want this so much. https://fnamerica.com/products/rifles/fn-m249s-para/ |
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Quoted: All true. Just a never mentioned detail that I... wanted to mention. SCAR is gassed towards the upper end of the spectrum for its design, but it is to support functionality with relatively high carrier mass to surface areas/CoF window. Ultimately the system has a replaceable gas screw just like other FN designs like Evolys, F2k , etc. You can tune it down, however it will chug when it is extremely dirty, when parts like magazines are worn, etc. requiring additional momentum in the operating group parts to ensure function, esp at the drive spring loses efficiency over its life and thus is not effectively storing as much energy. What people perceive as "over gassed" on SCAR isnt really what they think of on AK, at least not quite. Some of it is that the gas is contained in the regulator/gas block, and the ratio of surface area to optimal port pressure for a given system length needed to achieve the optimal 3-4m/s is, well "gassy". You bleed some of that, similar albiet not the same as AK. It's actually closer to G36 or AR18, upon which the system took design cues. People conflate this with "17 will beat itself to death at high carrier velocities". Good bad or indifferent, that is baked in to the system. Cause the requirements called for something that would run in all conditions and configurations. Fun fact. Scar, well mk17 and mk20, are configured to run with the regulator in either position regardless of whether the suppressor is installed (either QD701 or the FA762SV on 20) when the weapon is cleanish. And even then, dudes have accidentally pushed the reg to suppressed and had short cycles. I guess what I am saying is "overgassed" is a spectrum. The window means different things to different folks . |
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Quoted: Nah. No rumblings in the industry/LE sector, but: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/29005/2eg4z65eqmab1_jpg-3639593.JPG https://soldiersystems.net/2022/05/10/mdm-22-fn-america-mrgg/ https://soldiersystems.net/2022/06/10/fn-america-mid-range-gas-gun/ Wouldnt it be so cool if the commercial team there took a product designed by a team including one of Arf's own and tweaked it for the commercial market, adding features and controlling costs and what not? |
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Quoted: SCAR is gassed towards the upper end of the spectrum for its design, but it is to support functionality with relatively high carrier mass to surface areas/CoF window. Ultimately the system has a replaceable gas screw just like other FN designs like Evolys, F2k , etc. You can tune it down, however it will chug when it is extremely dirty, when parts like magazines are worn, etc. requiring additional momentum in the operating group parts to ensure function, esp at the drive spring loses efficiency over its life and thus is not effectively storing as much energy. What people perceive as "over gassed" on SCAR isnt really what they think of on AK, at least not quite. Some of it is that the gas is contained in the regulator/gas block, and the ratio of surface area to optimal port pressure for a given system length needed to achieve the optimal 3-4m/s is, well "gassy". You bleed some of that, similar albiet not the same as AK. It's actually closer to G36 or AR18, upon which the system took design cues. People conflate this with "17 will beat itself to death at high carrier velocities". Good bad or indifferent, that is baked in to the system. Cause the requirements called for something that would run in all conditions and configurations. Fun fact. Scar, well mk17 and mk20, are configured to run with the regulator in either position regardless of whether the suppressor is installed (either QD701 or the FA762SV on 20) when the weapon is cleanish. And even then, dudes have accidentally pushed the reg to suppressed and had short cycles. I guess what I am saying is "overgassed" is a spectrum. The window means different things to different folks . I appreciate the insight. |
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Quoted: The SCAR is also considered to be way overgassed like an AK compared to an M4. It's all compromises. If you compare the bolt of an FN SCAR or Bren 2 to an AR-15, you'll see how dainty the AR bolt is. It is so small and girly in comparison. The AR-15 might have been okay for rifle-length gas systems back in 'Nam, but the new stuff is much more overbuilt for today's short barrel gas systems. |
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Quoted: If you compare the bolt of an FN SCAR or Bren 2 to an AR-15, you'll see how dainty the AR bolt is. It is so small and girly in comparison. The AR-15 might have been okay for rifle-length gas systems back in 'Nam, but the new stuff is much more overbuilt for today's short barrel gas systems. Fairly common before direct impingement came along. |
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Quoted: https://soldiersystems.net/2022/05/10/mdm-22-fn-america-mrgg/ https://soldiersystems.net/2022/06/10/fn-america-mid-range-gas-gun/ Wouldnt it be so cool if the commercial team there took a product designed by a team including one of Arf's own and tweaked it for the commercial market, adding features and controlling costs and what not? Quoted: Quoted: Nah. No rumblings in the industry/LE sector, but: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/29005/2eg4z65eqmab1_jpg-3639593.JPG https://soldiersystems.net/2022/05/10/mdm-22-fn-america-mrgg/ https://soldiersystems.net/2022/06/10/fn-america-mid-range-gas-gun/ Wouldnt it be so cool if the commercial team there took a product designed by a team including one of Arf's own and tweaked it for the commercial market, adding features and controlling costs and what not? Aaaaaaaow.... Right off the bat, I see they addressed some weaknesses: Aluminum lower that doesn't shatter/crack, beefed up folding stock hinge point that will not break. I wonder if they addressed the elephant in the room: a reduced mass bolt that will function as well as it's predecessor, but without destroying optics/lasers or needing to harden them? |
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Quoted: https://soldiersystems.net/2022/05/10/mdm-22-fn-america-mrgg/ https://soldiersystems.net/2022/06/10/fn-america-mid-range-gas-gun/ Wouldnt it be so cool if the commercial team there took a product designed by a team including one of Arf's own and tweaked it for the commercial market, adding features and controlling costs and what not? Nice. |
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Quoted: If you compare the bolt of an FN SCAR or Bren 2 to an AR-15, you'll see how dainty the AR bolt is. It is so small and girly in comparison. The AR-15 might have been okay for rifle-length gas systems back in 'Nam, but the new stuff is much more overbuilt for today's short barrel gas systems. Ironically, and to be frank completely unintentionally, it also makes things like x39 case head size cartridges, 6arc, etc a non issue. Something that is kind of a dumpster fire for the small frame stoner system ie AR15 as you push pressures. I have seen SCAR 16 push a 300blk down the tube, clear it, and was back in business with a new barrel and bolt. The OD of the bolt and the lugs are the same as mk17. You pay a weight penalty on 16 (about 0.5 to 0.75lbs depending on how you quantify it), but the system is a brick shithouse. |
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Quoted: Aaaaaaaow.... Right off the bat, I see they addressed some weaknesses: Aluminum lower that doesn't shatter/crack, beefed up folding stock hinge point that will not break. I wonder if they addressed the elephant in the room: a reduced mass bolt that will function as well as it's predecessor, but without destroying optics/lasers or needing to harden them? So that aluminium lower was done for prototype purposes, or so I would think From a strength to weight perspective there is no reason to do the lower in Al in production. You can get lower weight for a given level of performance on that part with poly. The catch is poly is harder to prototype, especially with rev changes ongoing. Basically once you make the mold you are stuck. I cant touch that second one without immediately Arocking myself. Needless to say, you can attack it via mass which the mil team did, or you can attack it via g loading which helps you with perceived recoil, which the mil team did. Allegedly. I'm told. https://media1.tenor.com/m/X-u5cNOEpkIAAAAC/hans-schultz-hogan's-heroes.gif |
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Quoted: Perusing the FN America website. I want this so much. https://fnamerica.com/products/rifles/fn-m249s-para/ I got to shoot some lightweight fancy version of the machine gun and it was awesome. It felt like a heavy AR. I was amazed how much lighter it felt vs the normal 249. |
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Quoted: Perusing the FN America website. I want this so much. https://fnamerica.com/products/rifles/fn-m249s-para/ I want this thing: https://fnamerica.com/products/military/fn-mtl-30/ |
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#metoo |
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Quoted: So that aluminium lower was done for prototype purposes, or so I would think From a strength to weight perspective there is no reason to do the lower in Al in production. You can get lower weight for a given level of performance on that part with poly. The catch is poly is harder to prototype, especially with rev changes ongoing. Basically once you make the mold you are stuck. I cant touch that second one without immediately Arocking myself. Needless to say, you can attack it via mass which the mil team did, or you can attack it via g loading which helps you with perceived recoil, which the mil team did. Allegedly. I'm told. https://media1.tenor.com/m/X-u5cNOEpkIAAAAC/hans-schultz-hogan's-heroes.gif Ah. Maybe a less brittle poly mixture in the future, or were they all: "NYET, lower is fine." (No, I have never broke the lowers on my personal SCARs) Mmm. Pesky NDAs? |
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Quoted: I assume the NRCH version or a new model will be available. Quoted: Quoted: I don't have time for reading .what does this mean for the SCAR 20S? Was planning on making that happen next summer. I assume the NRCH version or a new model will be available. |
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SNORT. I have a couple DD M203s. But fuck all that. I'll take one of those and a case of HEDPs and Airbursts, please. |
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Lol I've shot that 
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Quoted: Ah. Maybe a less brittle poly mixture in the future, or were they all: "NYET, lower is fine." (No, I have never broke the lowers on my personal SCARs) Mmm. Pesky NDAs? It's complicated. The short version is Dan, Kristina, Jim, Mark, etc. are still colleagues and friends. For the record the only issue I have every seen with lowers is from the early EX16/17 guns and the original poly. It was changed early in dev cause MARSOC broke some. But it is almost unheard of for them to break in normal use. It can happen, but you are bending the receiver or breaking other shit. Remember the lower is supported by the receiver and the back plate and the barrel ext. And plastic deforms elastically better than metal, ie it returns to its original shape. I am not saying you wont ever possibly see an Edge SR25 lower in Al, just that it isnt going to help you for durability or strength. Simply put, I can proto in poly but SLA/ABS in print doesnt preform as close to injection mold as AL does to DMLS. So it is easier to have fast rev changes in metal if you have CNC and DMLS if you are operating within certain space/weight constraints than it is to try to use FDM of some sort. |
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Quoted: Doesn't every single SCAR/ACR-like rifle have a polymer lower? Seems to work. Low stress part. People think they want it in metal cause aftermarket outfits make it in metal. Hint: They make it in metal cause they know they will never sell enough to recoup the mold cost of doing it in poly, or they arent sure they will get it right the first time. No offense Paul, Nate, or Dorrin. Well maybe some offense to Dorrin.
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Quoted: Does anyone still use SCAR's? Quoted: Quoted: Seems like the older models with the older charging handle design is discontinued. Only reason I could see someone wanting it is for cloning/collecting purposes. If you want an exact or near exact clone of the military SCARs, might want to pick those up before they're gone. I assume a lot of military/police units are upgrading them to the NRCH version. Apparently the upgrade kit is almost $1000 though I am sure mil/LE get a bigger discount. May as well buy a whole 2nd rifle at that price point. Does anyone still use SCAR's? I'm sure some units and PDs in the US still use them. Otherwise a lot of foreign countries use them. Ukrainians seem to like the ones they got.  A number of countries use them, France for DMRs, Portugal, Chile, and more. The precision rifle versions seem to be popular. |
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Quoted: I'm sure some units and PDs in the US still use them. Otherwise a lot of foreign countries use them. Ukrainians seem to like the ones they got. https://preview.redd.it/a-ukrainian-and-his-scar-v0-l3gir11hcava1.jpg?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=8864359f53ad1992cbf9dac7588dfeaaab680379 A number of countries use them, France for DMRs, Portugal, Chile, and more. The precision rifle versions seem to be popular. I guess I was only referring to the US. |
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Woodland camo??? OMG |
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Quoted: https://soldiersystems.net/2022/05/10/mdm-22-fn-america-mrgg/ https://soldiersystems.net/2022/06/10/fn-america-mid-range-gas-gun/ Wouldnt it be so cool if the commercial team there took a product designed by a team including one of Arf's own and tweaked it for the commercial market, adding features and controlling costs and what not? |
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Quoted: Did they outsource the buttstock to FAB? It was COTS product because of the way the requirement was written "adjustable cheekpiece". It also had/has a secondary buffer that the team was playing with at the time, among others. M4 tube/compatible buttstock was a solicitation req though, and FAB actually had one of the better options that would pass drop, clear the CH, etc. Also when you say "outsource", that's kind of a weird question to me. Do you think that the Ugg boot is made inside of FNA or FNH? |
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They could be? For those unaware, FN is still moving forward with this embarrassing cobbled together piece of hammered dog shit as their next generation rifle. Attached File FN goes ass to mouth. With other dudes. |
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Quoted: They could be? For those unaware, FN is still moving forward with this embarrassing cobbled together piece of hammered dog shit as their next generation rifle. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/61399/IMG_4834_png-3639651.JPG I'm intrigued by the 6.5mm LICC. |
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Quoted: They could be? For those unaware, FN is still moving forward with this embarrassing cobbled together piece of hammered dog shit as their next generation rifle. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/61399/IMG_4834_png-3639651.JPG FN goes ass to mouth. With other dudes. Sigh. I know better. But whatever... For the class what is cobbled together? What can you tell the class about how that system works or the specs? The reality? Everything on that rifle is purpose built for the IWTSD requirement. There is literally nothing that can hit the performance reqs at the weight that that thing does. And that is borne out in the cost, but it fucks. That is probably the most advance individual combat rifle on the planet at the moment. It makes no compromises, in weight (7.5lbs), ballistics, size, features, recoil, etc. And I promise you the cost would show it. |
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Quoted: If I had to guess they don't like the different shades of FDE. Fun fact, even the same ano tank can produce different shades depending on how much shit you put in it, when it was cleaned and reset, etc. You can spend a ton of time chasing something that real users dont GAF about, or you can do like Giessele and put a warning on your website that says "this is what you get". FN just doesnt even acknowledge it, if you want a perfectly color matched rifle, go buy a PSA cerakoted 800 dollar SABER If all you care about is the color, that will do you just fine. |
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Quoted: Fun fact, even the same ano tank can produce different shades depending on how much shit you put in it, when it was cleaned and reset, etc. You can spend a ton of time chasing something that real users dont GAF about, or you can do like Giessele and put a warning on your website that says "this is what you get". FN just doesnt even acknowledge it, if you want a perfectly color matched rifle, go buy a PSA cerakoted 800 dollar SABER If all you care about is the color, that will do you just fine. I know I remember purple Colt M4's. |
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Quoted: What do you think of the 6.5 LICC? How does it compare to Sig's .277 Fury? Lot of promise is all I can say. More work to be done by that team. But it already "matches or exceeds" 6.5CM using materials and design that are capable of withstanding substantially higher pressures and thus velocities that brass 6.5 in a stoner (or SCAR) type system at lower weight. And unlike NGSW it is down convertible to 5.56 versus upcoversion to 7.62. With the weight difference that implies. It is a true intermediate cartridge. 2.5" vs 5.56 2.26, relative to the 2.81 that is 7.62, 6.8, 6.5. |
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Quoted: Lot of promise is all I can say. More work to be done by that team. But it already "matches or exceeds" 6.5CM using materials and design that are capable of withstanding substantially higher pressures and thus velocities that brass 6.5 in a stoner (or SCAR) type system at lower weight. And unlike NGSW it is down convertible to 5.56 versus upcoversion to 7.62. With the weight difference that implies. It is a true intermediate cartridge. 2.5" vs 5.56 2.26, relative to the 2.81 that is 7.62, 6.8, 6.5. I like it. |
