[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Did Sig actually end it? (Page 2 of 2)
|
Quoted: Is the OP an attorney or THE attorney? |
|
Quoted: You know. When the 320 came out I wanted to like it. IT felt good in the hand. Handled well. Going bang the gun did well and I was reasonably accurate with the few that I shot. For me anyway. NEVER OWNED ONE. The trigger was a WTF moment in all cases... I just felt OFF or Wrong is the best word I can describe. Some told me to my face it was better than a Glock. LOLOL Yeah dude. Sure.. Just something about the trigger. I Didn't trust it. I guess I dodged a bullet because A Few times I thought about buying one. I have bought 2 sig pistols in my life. Sig 229 in the late 90's and a 365 when they came out. The 229 I sold a few years after buying to a friend of my dad. I NEVER bought a 320... That gun will never sell well again. Local gun shop said a guy wanted $200 for an Sig X5 Legion the one with the gray frame with tungsten in it. They don't take 320's period. It was complete had 4 mags and box paperwork everything really good shape. NOT new but very lightly used. Magazines were clean and in good shape along with the gun. The guy took care of it. Around here there are a few DIE hard SIG idiots. 320 this 320 that. Good enough for the US Military. LOLOL.... I would have bought that in 2 seconds |
|
Quoted: My gunsmith has tried and tried to get one to accidentally discharge and has not succeeded yet. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: People of Arfcom are like a scorned woman that can't let shit go. This place has become sad. Or the P320 in particular is a pile with obvious design issues in both the striker block and the sear. It could be that. Eh I have 3 of them. All run well and have never shot me or anyone else. My gunsmith has tried and tried to get one to accidentally discharge and has not succeeded yet. Does anyone have first person I was there I seen it knowledge of a Pinto that caught fire? Explorers that rolled? Corvairs that were unsafe? C-10s that burst into flame from a side hit? But all these things are truths today. Don't know don't care about any Sig but my 938. |
|
Quoted: Just went to sigs site Main page no picture of the 320 Bunch of the 365 and 2011 thing So the 320 musta ended for them as well.... Not totally since from the home page if you scroll down and select pistols as a category it will take you to all their pistols and the 320s are all listed and shown there. Also my M17/320 has never demonstrated it has a self activating feature but I've not shot it in prob. a year and been focusing on my Glocks. Right now it's just hanging out in the gun safe until it ends one way or the other. Personally I think most of this is people fucking with their guns in some manner, either subconsciously or consciously and trying to cover up their actions. Everytime there is "video evidence" it's grainy and at bad angles and does not really show shit defiantly or there is no video and some "witnesses" saying they didn't touch the gun but I know at least one case of auto discharge of a P320 during a class where every single withness (multiple ones) and the person who's gun appeared to auto discharge, they all said the hand was no where near the gun. Well turns out there was someone taking video of the class that they reviewed later that very clearly showed the person was fucking with their gun and had their finger inside the trigger guard and caused what they all said was an uncommanded discharge. Realistically some people use their gun and or holster like a fidget spinner and fuck with them, even subconsciously. Hell even I've caught myself doing it before. Carry a gun every day like a police officer does and it come down to more opportunities for something to happen. Also once a trend starts or rumors get out there that a particular platform is "having an issue" reguardless of accurate and proven or in fact anecdotal they no longer gets viewed as a ND but instead part of the broader issue of "this platform is defective" or dangerous or what ever. |
|
My .02 cents but now we have to round up so my .05 cents is the trigger group is a by far terrible design. I was a Tool & Die maker, mostly built sheet metal progressive dies. I look at that trigger and say those dimensions cannot be held as a stamping. I want a high quality trigger that resets and fires every time that trigger is pulled. I cannot see that happening with that design. The 320 was designed to be a easily made and a high profit margin firearm. At 350 dollars they would still make money. It's a piece of shit end of story. I had several but sold them all once this all broke out with the trigger fiasco. I still have several German made firearms and they all function perfect. Sig made in USA are junk. |
|
Quoted: One of my local gun shops won't even take in P320s on trade or consignment because they can't get rid of them. Local pawn shop has a new one and several used ones in the case. Prices have been lowered a couple of times, they've still been sitting there getting dusty a very long time. No one wants them. |
|
Quoted: So very many things become cold hard fact just by repetition. Does anyone have first person I was there I seen it knowledge of a Pinto that caught fire? Explorers that rolled? Corvairs that were unsafe? C-10s that burst into flame from a side hit? But all these things are truths today. Don't know don't care about any Sig but my 938. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: People of Arfcom are like a scorned woman that can't let shit go. This place has become sad. Or the P320 in particular is a pile with obvious design issues in both the striker block and the sear. It could be that. Eh I have 3 of them. All run well and have never shot me or anyone else. My gunsmith has tried and tried to get one to accidentally discharge and has not succeeded yet. Does anyone have first person I was there I seen it knowledge of a Pinto that caught fire? Explorers that rolled? Corvairs that were unsafe? C-10s that burst into flame from a side hit? But all these things are truths today. Don't know don't care about any Sig but my 938. Maybe so but I think it is blown way out of proportion. The majority are perfectly safe I do not own one and never have But it might end up being like the low number 1903s that are supposedly unsafe to fire The military did have a few receivers fail on the low numbered springfields but I think it was less than 30. Extensive research was done on this and it was found that only a few lots had issues and the factor most likely causing the failures was poor quality 30-06 ammo that was made prior to the adaption of the M2 ball ammo used in WW2. There were no more failures of receivers after that adoption in the early 1930s The marines issued low number serial numbered 1903s in WW2 and used them extensively in the fighting on guadacanal and never had a receiver fail My point in all of this is that even if there is a problem with some 320s it appears to be very minimal compared to overall numbers SIGs biggest issue is that their PR sucks and they come across as smarmy assholes on the subject of this matter |
|
Quoted: Maybe so but I think it is blown way out of proportion. The majority are perfectly safe I do not own one and never have But it might end up being like the low number 1903s that are supposedly unsafe to fire The military did have a few receivers fail on the low numbered springfields but I think it was less than 30. Extensive research was done on this and it was found that only a few lots had issues and the factor most likely causing the failures was poor quality 30-06 ammo that was made prior to the adaption of the M2 ball ammo used in WW2. There were no more failures of receivers after that adoption in the early 1930s The marines issued low number serial numbered 1903s in WW2 and used them extensively in the fighting on guadacanal and never had a receiver fail My point in all of this is that even if there is a problem with some 320s it appears to be very minimal compared to overall numbers SIGs biggest issue is that their PR sucks and they come across as smarmy assholes on the subject of this matter Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: People of Arfcom are like a scorned woman that can't let shit go. This place has become sad. Or the P320 in particular is a pile with obvious design issues in both the striker block and the sear. It could be that. Eh I have 3 of them. All run well and have never shot me or anyone else. My gunsmith has tried and tried to get one to accidentally discharge and has not succeeded yet. Does anyone have first person I was there I seen it knowledge of a Pinto that caught fire? Explorers that rolled? Corvairs that were unsafe? C-10s that burst into flame from a side hit? But all these things are truths today. Don't know don't care about any Sig but my 938. Maybe so but I think it is blown way out of proportion. The majority are perfectly safe I do not own one and never have But it might end up being like the low number 1903s that are supposedly unsafe to fire The military did have a few receivers fail on the low numbered springfields but I think it was less than 30. Extensive research was done on this and it was found that only a few lots had issues and the factor most likely causing the failures was poor quality 30-06 ammo that was made prior to the adaption of the M2 ball ammo used in WW2. There were no more failures of receivers after that adoption in the early 1930s The marines issued low number serial numbered 1903s in WW2 and used them extensively in the fighting on guadacanal and never had a receiver fail My point in all of this is that even if there is a problem with some 320s it appears to be very minimal compared to overall numbers SIGs biggest issue is that their PR sucks and they come across as smarmy assholes on the subject of this matter Sure, but the early 1903s with janky heat treatments that were likely to blow up probably blew up pretty early on. I’d imagine marginal 320s would only become more dangerous as they wore in. |
|
Quoted: That seems to be "the problem" for many gun stores. Stores won't buy them and buyers are avoiding the 320 due to all the "controversy". Bigger_Hammer  I’m not even talking about gun stores. They have won enough contracts with militaries they will be around for many many years. |
|
Quoted: Eh I have 3 of them. All run well and have never shot me or anyone else. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: People of Arfcom are like a scorned woman that can't let shit go. This place has become sad. Or the P320 in particular is a pile with obvious design issues in both the striker block and the sear. It could be that. Eh I have 3 of them. All run well and have never shot me or anyone else. Soon |
|
Sigs mistake with the p320 was to not treat the gun community like a woman. With the dei feminization of our nation, Sigs big mistake was to make a huge pr blunder/failure of a statement that the 320 cannot go off without the trigger being pulled,… never, ever just come out and correct a woman making a false statement, especially if their concern is understandable - they will never forget, never apologize, and NEVER say they were wrong. |
|
Quoted: Fact Quoted: Quoted: People of Arfcom are like a scorned woman that can't let shit go. This place has become sad. Fact  people don't forget |
|
It was a bad idea to instruct the engineers to design a single action striker fired pistol, with a light trigger pull to be able to use the grip of a double action, hammer fired, previous model pistol, all because completely new molds would be expensive. They ended up with a design that relies on spring pressure only to keep the sear engaged, and a wonky, delicate lever as a firing pin block, instead of a well proven plunger style firing pin block. Both of those things together are poor engineering forced by having to work in a previous geometry, rather than a clean sheet design. I like many Sig products, but FRC. Fuck the P320 series. I own an M18, but will never carry it since looking at how the trigger mechanism works in person. |
|
Regardless of whether or not a mechanical fault exists, the way Sig handled this has stained the gun and the company’s reputation. Back in 2017 when the initial drop firing controversy started back in 2017, instead of doing a recall like Taurus did with the PT111 when faced with the same problem, Sig did that “voluntary upgrade” bullshit to avoid confessing to the world that they had not done adequate drop testing. That shit show alone caused a lot of skepticism with the gun. The holster popping incidents seen in a few videos and claimed by many are subjects of heavy debate. While the infamous Air Force incident was ultimately bullshit, the fact that higher command initially considered the possibility of it being real, is pretty telling of the gun’s reputation. Had Sig just done a proper recall back in 2017, or just killed the gun entirely and offered an exchange program for something similar but fully-baked to replace it, their reputation would not be nearly as damaged as it is today. Sig’s greed and arrogance has stained their once good name. |
|
Quoted: So very many things become cold hard fact just by repetition. Does anyone have first person I was there I seen it knowledge of a Pinto that caught fire? Explorers that rolled? Corvairs that were unsafe? C-10s that burst into flame from a side hit? But all these things are truths today. Don't know don't care about any Sig but my 938. NBC actually confessed to rigging the C10 in their footage with explosive devices and had to pay GM a settlement. As for the rest, who the hell knows? |
|
Quoted: If someone came up with a drop in replacement for the abortion parts that fail they'd likely sell a shitload of them. Like Timney did when folks bubba fucked or gunked up stock 700 triggers. Sig could do it, but simply refuse to. The easy button would be to convert em back to a P250 - same mags, same grip frame, same barrels, I think the 320 uses the exact same FCU chassis - the slide has to be replaced. The slide is the most expensive part of the gun after the barrel, might be more expensive than the barrel. Lots of machining on the slide. Somebody could make bank by offering aftermarket P250 slides & DAO trigger/hammer/FP parts. That could bring a lot of P320s out of gun safes, might even get a Marine Corps contract if they Cerakoted it w/ pictures of Crayons. No significant liability there, the P250 is a known, reliable DAO design that was extremely adaptable from .22 LR to .380 to .45 ACP. You might be able to mill existing P320 slides and slot in an adapter to work with the existing P250 DAO FCU. Offer that as a service. To maintain it as a striker fired gun, with a Glock like setup, you'd need to redesign the slide, and probably the FCU - but again, you'd keep the mags, barrels, & grip frames. That's what SIG didn't want to do in the first place, and given it would likely have an entirely new FCU chassis, would be a completely different gun that could use some legacy SIG P250/P320 parts. Someone could do that, and would have an immediate existing block of customers wanting to buy their slides & FCU. Extra points if they manage to use existing Glock parts in the slide/FCU design, much like the Gluger. Redesigning the existing sear within the existing slide & FCU chassis, even if possible, would entail significant liability for anyone that attempts it. And you're still stuck w/ the swinging firing pin block lever instead of the industry standard plunger, unless you go milling holes in existing slides. |
|
Quoted: The easy button would be to convert em back to a P250 - same mags, same grip frame, same barrels, I think the 320 uses the exact same FCU chassis - the slide has to be replaced. The slide is the most expensive part of the gun after the barrel, might be more expensive than the barrel. Lots of machining on the slide. Somebody could make bank by offering aftermarket P250 slides & DAO trigger/hammer/FP parts. That could bring a lot of P320s out of gun safes, might even get a Marine Corps contract if they Cerakoted it w/ pictures of Crayons. No significant liability there, the P250 is a known, reliable DAO design that was extremely adaptable from .22 LR to .380 to .45 ACP. You might be able to mill existing P320 slides and slot in an adapter to work with the existing P250 DAO FCU. Offer that as a service. To maintain it as a striker fired gun, with a Glock like setup, you'd need to redesign the slide, and probably the FCU - but again, you'd keep the mags, barrels, & grip frames. That's what SIG didn't want to do in the first place, and given it would likely have an entirely new FCU chassis, would be a completely different gun that could use some legacy SIG P250/P320 parts. Someone could do that, and would have an immediate existing block of customers wanting to buy their slides & FCU. Extra points if they manage to use existing Glock parts in the slide/FCU design, much like the Gluger. Redesigning the existing sear within the existing slide & FCU chassis, even if possible, would entail significant liability for anyone that attempts it. And you're still stuck w/ the swinging firing pin block lever instead of the industry standard plunger, unless you go milling holes in existing slides. The P250 is actually a pretty decent gun, but the mall ninjas and other “experts” convinced everyone that hammer-fired guns are the devil and unfortunately Sig listened and forced the good DOA hammer pistol into becoming a questionable SAO striker pistol. The P320 was clearly rushed in its development, otherwise it wouldn’t have so much lineage from the P250 and it would’ve been a from-the-ground-up design like the P365 was, rather a striker mechanism show-horned into a hammer gun. |
|
Quoted: Sig ended it for me with this whole circus. The gross mishandling of the whole situation, then the whole "it ends today" thing calling people anti gun. No, fuck you. I will never spend a dime of my money on anything with their name on it, old or new. Can't sum it up any better than this. I was a SIG fanboy only carrying/using that brand. I paid good money twice to be an Armorer on P320/P365 pistols. I now don't and won't own one. I almost had to pay someone to take my last couple of SIG pistols. Never again, it ended for sure. P320 is only pistol I've seen in a long time that works 187% of the time 
|
|
Like quite a few other companies, they had a noticeable decline in quality in the last 10-15 years. Hard to bounce back from the 320 fiasco. Even if it’s not REALLY a huge problem, perception is reality. I like the way they feel and shoot, but I wouldn’t have one. Just too much smoke there. When I was a young pup, Sig was near the top of the heap. Buddy had an incredible West German classic and I had a great couple of 229s and 220s. Genuinely fantastic guns. I *might* still buy a 229 or 516 if I wanted to, but I’m leery. YMMV |