If there was enough to see and and know it was pot, there was enough to test. Furthermore, if it was "untestable", then it was not pot. It may have been the officer's OPINION that it was pot. But if it wasn't enough to test, it wasn't enough to know for sure. Therefore, the pot or not-pot in the car is not an issue. And I'm as anti-drug as it gets, I hate 'em. So, this kid gets his money taken for no reason real reason other than "suspicion". |
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"They just told me it looked like drug money, that was all," Hunt says. The deputies found no drugs or alcohol in the car; Hunt was not arrested for any offense, nor was he written up for a traffic violation. The U.S. attorney's office in Macon, Ga., has now initiated proceedings to keep Hunt's money based on probable cause that it is "proceeds traceable" to "a controlled substance." Among their strongest evidence: * The deputy smelled burned marijuana. * The deputy observed "an untestable" amount of what appeared to be marijuana on the floorboard. * Drug dogs detected drug residue on the currency when it was brought back to the station. Hunt has not been charged with any crime as a result of the traffic stop. So the question arises: Why is the government trying to take his $5,581? The federal prosecutor refused to comment because the case is pending. He has offered to return half of Hunt's money. (WTF??? Is this negotiating with the mafia here???? But Hunt's attorney, David Crawford, says they want all of it back and that they're considering a civil rights lawsuit. "It's an abuse of power, and we're not gonna let them hide behind their police powers and the legal system. We're gonna keep pursuing this until we get justice," says Crawford. Hunt concludes, "It was my hard-earned cash. They had guns and badges and they just took it. If I would have been a drug dealer, I would have just left them and let them have the money." NPR showed this case to attorney David Smith of Alexandria, Va., a former deputy of the asset forfeiture section in the Justice Department and an author of two volumes on forfeiture law. "I can tell you I never see a complaint like this filed in the Eastern District of Virginia. In fact, even if they had loads of evidence, they'd probably hesitate to file a complaint against $5,000 just because it's a waste of time. But to file it when there's so little evidence, as in this case, is really striking," Smith says. NPR examined 14 other federal currency forfeiture cases from Lamar County, Ga., over the past four years. In some of the cases, the drivers had prior felony convictions for narcotics. But there are other cases similar to Hunt's, in which the government confiscates the money because the car smelled like marijuana, the deputy said they acted nervous, they were carrying a wad of cash, and a drug dog alerted on it. "Something is rotten down there, I can tell you that," Smith concludes. Government Says Safeguards in Place Forfeiture abuse is nothing new. In the 1990s, the media reported stories of police running roughshod over the rights of innocent property owners. It led to the Civil Asset Forfeiture Reform Act of 2000, or CAFRA, which was supposed to raise the government's burden of proof before it could seize a person's property. The government maintains those reforms worked, that safeguards are in place, and individuals can challenge a seizure — just as Gonzalez and Hunt did. "I think a lot of people thought after passage of federal reform law that most if not all problems with civil forfeiture were solved. And I simply don't think that's the case," says Scott Bullock, senior attorney at the Institute for Justice, a public interest, libertarian law firm in Washington. Smith, who helped write the CAFRA reforms a decade ago, adds, "There's still a lot of abuse. There are large parts of the country where prosecutors can get away with bringing bad cases because judges tolerate them." The reason you don't hear about more abuses, he says, is that a person has to hire an attorney to challenge a forfeiture, and a lawyer often charges more than the amount of the seized cash. Under CAFRA reforms, if the government loses a civil forfeiture challenge it must reimburse the lawyer, but many individuals may be unaware of this fact when they decide not to pursue their money. Here is where the occasional innocent victim of this practice, and their rights, fall in the minds of these people........ Richard Weber, chief of the asset forfeiture section of the Justice Department, was asked if he found these cases troubling. They're insignificant, he said, compared with the thousands of traffic stops where major drug money couriers are busted. "What's troubling to you?" Weber asks. "That a drug trafficker who's bringing money from the U.S. to Mexico, who's carrying hundreds of thousands of millions of dollars in cash in their pickup truck, who just sold dope and crack and cocaine to children in your playgrounds, and his money is being taken away? That troubles you?" 100% "Ends justify the means" attitude here folks. |
| I have a question. Under no circumstances can you get a LEO to intervene in a civil matter. They will be the first to tell you that they only deal with Criminal issues, not civil (such as lawsuits, etc). So, how do they have standing to act in a civil forfieture on their behalf, but no standing to act on a citizens behalf in any other civil matter? Either LE acts in civil matters, or they don't. |
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Hey Dave.....I don't do drugs, I don't even hang around them. I work, I pay my taxes, and law abiding. They worst law breaking I do is speeding on occasion. I also carried $5,000 around in my pocket all spring looking at cars. People want cash when you buy a car. And I don't trust banks all that much. Did you know that a crapload of banks failed during the great depression? Are you aware there were a few runs on the banks this spring, and that the dollar has weakened massively? If I had run across one of these guys on a traffic stop, I would have lost that cash. And you're saying that's right.........you're wrong. |
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Wow, a guy had a little over $5,000 taken from him because it was "drug" money. Trust me, I can travel with more than that. I've done it going overseas to bring money to our guys in China. I've done it going to Louisiana. I can easily see some Deputy finding a way to search one way or the other and since I normally travel with firearms I'm sure it won't take much for Rover the drug/gun/bomb sniffing dog to go nuts. Yep, this is why I watch my ass traveling across the country. |
blutube.com  enter sandman sheesh at least they could make it Master of Puppets or For Whom the Bell Tolls. Far more fitting for the crime fighting heros. |
I have news for ya... The police have seized much smaller amounts than that. If you think about it, it makes perfect sense. Seize $2500 from someone... are they really going to fight to get it back? Hire an attorney, have them appear in court once... there's your $2500. I can remember a few years back, watching video of a Volusia County deputy (IIRC), practically pouring a drunk white woman back into her car and sending her on her way. A little while later, he stops a sober black woman with a couple of kids in her car, and seizes about $2000 from her. Between '89 and '92, the Volusia County Sheriffs Dept. was averaging $5000 a day. In over 3/4's of the stops, no criminal charges were filed. (And, of course, 90% of the people who had money seized were black or hispanic.) Now... you think things have gotten better? I read on one forum (take it for what it's worth), where a person claiming to be a LEO stated that he was instructed by his supervisor that, if a motorist was carrying more than $500, he should be looking for an excuse to seize the money. (Again, this was on an internet forum, so you have to take it with a grain of salt. However, how scary is it, that I have no trouble at all believing it could be true?) |
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More AF shenanigans from NPR's series: www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=91638378 All Things Considered, June 18, 2008 · Camden County, Ga., is famous for Cumberland Island National Seashore, the Kings Bay Submarine Base, the historic town of St. Mary's … and Sheriff Bill Smith. The tanned, white-haired lawman is now running for his seventh term. It's a dynasty, as his father and grandfather were Camden County sheriffs before him. The 70-year-old sheriff's career has been bolstered by his remarkable success at seizing drug money off of Interstate 95, which runs north and south through the county. Over the past 15 years, his highway interdiction team has grabbed more than $20 million from drug-money couriers. The law lets police keep up to 80 percent of the money they collect. Now, Smith is the subject of a federal grand jury investigation into whether he misused the forfeiture funds. The Camden County Navy "I'd say Camden County has probably been one of the most successful agencies on the Eastern seaboard in seizing money belonging to the drug dealers," Smith says, while sitting in his department headquarters in the town of Woodbine. With this largesse, he's built a law enforcement empire in this quiet, pastoral county tucked near the Florida border and the Atlantic Ocean. First, there was the $3 million sheriff's substation. Then, Smith bought vehicles for other county departments and for neighboring law enforcement agencies. He purchased boats that some people wisecrack are his Camden County navy. And he created an estimated $600,000 in scholarships. "We've had quite a few individuals from our department get their [associate], bachelor's and master's degrees," he says proudly. Some purchases were more exotic. There was the $90,000 Dodge Viper for the sheriff's DARE anti-drug program. "The year we took this out to Las Vegas for the national DARE convention, it was the No. 1 DARE car in the country," says Lt. William Terrell. The sheriff spent so much seized drug money that the regional newspaper in Jacksonville, The Florida Times-Union, began to write stories about it — about the $250,000 he gave to his alma mater, The Citadel, for a scholarship, and the $12,000 he gave to the spinal cord center in Atlanta where his paralytic son had been treated. But the expenditure that really raised eyebrows was the $50 a week he paid to county jail trustees. The sheriff says they were paid to do public works and to teach them a work ethic. But his chief critic says Smith used them to build a weekend home called The Ponderosa. "The Ponderosa probably represents the pinnacle of abuse," says Steve Berry, a lawyer and novelist who sits on the Camden County Commission, which sued Smith over control of the forfeiture money. "The sheriff buys a piece of property in the center of the county, little old house on it, takes inmates out there, they rebuild the entire house into a very nice party house." Smith disputes that version of the story. "That's completely untrue," he retorts. "I can't believe Mr. Berry would say something like that, must be a figment of his imagination. I think you probably know he's a fiction writer, and he's pretty good with that." The allegations that Smith misused forfeiture money and, in particular, that he used it to pay inmate labor were serious enough that a federal grand jury in Savannah is now looking into them. Federal guidelines specify that forfeiture money is to be used strictly for law enforcement purposes. Smith would not comment on the investigation, except to say all the expenditures were legal, documented, and he can account for every penny. Checks and Balances The accusation that Smith used forfeiture funds at his whim is at the heart of wider criticism that there are scant controls over how seized drug money is used. "That's really the root of problem," Berry says. "You have one man in total control of $25 to $30 million with no checks and balances. Now you can imagine what would happen at that point. The old adage of absolute power corrupts absolutely is proven perfectly there." Around the nation, there are plenty of other examples of misspent forfeiture money: bomber jackets for the Colorado State Patrol; running gear for the police department in Austin, Texas; football tickets for the district attorney's office in Fulton County, Ga. Some might say, so what? Cops have a tough job and they don't get paid much, so let them have some new running shoes and a few end-zone seats. The investigation in Camden County, however, shows the potential for abuse when a public safety official has unfettered access to millions of dollars, with little accountability. In Texas, there's growing concern about the possible misuse of seized drug funds, which are massive. Last year, Texas law enforcement seized more than $125 million in drug assets. On June 5, John Whitmire called a hearing of the Texas Senate Committee on Criminal Justice to look into allegations of loose spending by district attorneys. Under the law, police and prosecutors can keep a portion of the proceeds from the drug-money cases they handle. He heard about the D.A. in Webb County who paid for TV commercials during his re-election campaign, the D.A. in Kimble County who took his office to Hawaii for a "training seminar," and the D.A. in Montgomery County who wrote a check to a political buddy's golf tournament fundraiser. Speaking to a hearing room full of stone-faced district attorneys in blue suits and cowboy boots, Whitmire said there ought to be a law to go after prosecutors who spend money on "toys for the department." "If there's not one, we damn sure need to get one. Because it's gonna ruin a very good program if we don't tighten it up, put accountability and cut out the abuses," Whitmire said. How Big Is the Impact? There are two asset forfeiture systems: state and federal. The one in Washington exerts more oversight. Yet the Justice Department's inspector general audits an average of only five law enforcement agencies a year out of more than 8,000. There was no audit, for instance, of the Camden County Sheriff's Office, even though there had been complaints about Smith's extravagant spending for years. Richard Weber, chief of the Justice Department's asset forfeiture and money-laundering section, insists that the controls are adequate and that they're catching and correcting the small number of agencies that go astray. "We're talking about hundreds of millions of dollars, 8,000 or so recipients, and very few cases of abuse," Weber says. He concludes that forfeiture is one of the best law enforcement tools in the federal arsenal to fight drug trafficking. "When you take away the money, when you take away the profit, then you're making a substantial impact not only on that individual case, but on the entire criminal networks," he says But just how big is that impact? Ninety interviews with law enforcement officials, prosecutors and forfeiture attorneys around the nation suggest police agencies that say they're seizing piles of dirty money to help win the drug war are mainly doing so to help boost their own budgets. And evidence shows that some officers will use their badge to take cash from drivers without any evidence that they're involved in drug trafficking. "For every $2 million that gets seized on the highways it'll fit in a pinhead. You're making a dent on the cartel organization, but it's chump change for them," said Fidel Gonzalez, commander of a narcotics task force in South Texas located on a major smuggling corridor. Don Semesky, chief of financial investigations for the Drug Enforcement Administration, added, "You're not solving anything by taking the cash and declaring victory." The amount of attention given to seizing cash prompted the Domestic Highway Enforcement Project, part of the White House drug czar's office, to urge more public safety agencies to refocus on the police work. Officers making traffic stops should be collecting intelligence, as well as currency. "What we're trying to do is get people to move beyond the stop 'n' grab into the investigation of criminal organizations," said Jack Killorin, chairman of the highway enforcement project. A good example is Operation Money Clip. Five years ago, a West Texas sheriff stopped a pickup on Interstate 10 and discovered $2.2 million in a hidden compartment. That single traffic stop led to investigations in 25 U.S. cities, 22 tons of illegal narcotics seized, and 83 people arrested. Some lawmen who abuse asset forfeiture may also end up in prison. On Thursday, the former sheriff of Robeson County in North Carolina is scheduled to be sentenced by a federal judge in Raleigh. The ex-sheriff and 22 of his deputies — nearly a quarter of the entire department — pleaded guilty or have been charged with crimes as a result of a years-long federal corruption investigation called Operation Tarnished Badge. The charges included racial profiling and stealing seized drug assets. The judge in the case, U.S. District Judge Terrence Boyle, commented, "They weren't enforcing the law at all. They would just go fishing." Examples of Questionable Forfeiture Fund Spending Albany, New York, Police Department: $7,711 on photographs of police officers and artwork for administrative offices; $16,190 on food, gifts and entertainment. Colorado State Patrol: $340 for a walnut plaque; $832 for knives as incentive awards; $599 on embroidered polo shirts; $907 for tickets to minor-league baseball games; $1,410 for fleece vests and bomber jackets; $107 for poker chips; $234 Bath & Body Works, various items. St. Louis County Police Department: $144,689 to reimburse employees for courses taken at local colleges and universities to complete bachelor's or master's degree programs, such as English Composition, Advanced Contract Law and Introduction to Astronomy. Fulton County, Georgia, District Attorney's Office: $5,000 for annual Christmas party, including a red cape printed with "Super Lawyer"; $6,650 on dinners, college football tickets, fundraisers and galas. Boston Police Department: $2.6 million to lease SUVs, sedans and other vehicles for eight years. The Department says the vehicles were assigned to undercover officers trying to fit into drug scenes. Milwaukee County Sheriff's Office: $2,040 on a billboard campaign during election season. Kimble County, Texas, District Attorney's Office: $14,000 in per diem money for a training seminar in Hawaii. Austin, Texas, Police Department: $12,025 for awards banquet; $3,314 for department's running team; $1,895 for a race clock; $625 for coffee mugs. Montgomery County, Texas, District Attorney's Office: $458.41 for tequila, rum, beer kegs and a margarita machine for an employee barbecue cook-off; $870 for school folders for public school students with the message about the District Attorney: Michael McDougal supports our Willis Schools; $1,200 to golf tournament fundraiser for county constable. Webb County, Texas, Sheriff's Office: $13,050 for newsletters and $20,000 for TV commercials, both of which the sheriff defended as important public service media, and which were criticized as re-election tools. |
| F**** try that shit with me and i will having his ass and that damn county ass in court swinging the tune of some large boxes of green backs being loaded into my acount. I underdstand the point that criminals use cars, well no shit there sherlock holmes, glad you are there to point that out. It's cops like these assholes that give them all bad names and they aren't all bad, only a few here and there. |
Still waiting for you to point out which part of this argument is 100% emotional, Dave_A... |
What if your a legit citizen with limited economic means ? In the statement "...the government should be forced to pay all your expenses...", you're assuming the person is able to mount any type of defense in the first place. Is it smart to carry your life savings in your pocket ? No, but its not criminal. |
Watch out, they may take you back to the station and SIIYPAPP.... Under the guise of a cavity search and all...obviously.... 
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Nope...if there is enough reason to believe it is tainted money, there should be enough reason to arrest. Other wise let'em go. Not against the law to carry large sums of money. Even if they are going 10mph under or over. Unless you can produce enough to arrest....you don't take jack and you turn'em loose with a traffic citation. PD's, like those, rely of fear and red tape to keep money they had no business to in the first place. |
How about this one? link I'm sure there is some perfectly logical explanation for that. |
Carry travelers checks everywhere?  I have checks and don't even have a CC (my wife has both). I OFTEN carry large amounts of cash, $500-$1000 is not uncommon, depending on if I am goiing somewhere where I might spend it. According to Dave_A, if I get pulled over for a citation or just because I look "suspicious" I should lose my money and fight to get it back, likely costing me most or all of it to lawyers....Fucking lunacy.... Lucky for me, NY cops seem to be busy with other things than to worry about this....so far... |
If you are suspected as doing something criminal, and are treated as such, as is your property, then the whole thing should REMAIN CRIMINAL MATTER, not all of a sudden go civil because it's easier to take another person's money when it suites you. DUH....
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If you were CAUGHT street racing you were committing a crime and likely broke NUMEROUS PROVABLE V+T laws, CAUSING the impoundment. With a speeding ticket, all the cop took was a few minutes of my time for something he was ABLE TO PROVE. I don't fork over any cash unless I admit guild, or lose my case, and if I do, it doesn't go to the cop and I get a official receipt for it. See the connection? Break the law THEN pay the price... Your examples are the suck and totally wrong. |
It is different, The civil matter was not brought by the .gov though, it was brought by pvt persons, not the virtually unstoppable government. Nothing was taken before hand. |
What's the lesson here? Never consent. The cop went fishing. You notice they never detail what the "instinct" was. |
I don't think Dave_A understands that civil court is for individuals to resolve matters in front of an impartial judge. If the government is bringing a case against you, it has to be criminal by definition. Edit for typo |
Yes and no. They don't detail what the instinct was because that cop honestly probably couldn't tell you. Did he have that sixth sense going off? Probably. Some guys just know. It really is uncanny. |
Without the officer being able to articulate what he thought was PC then he had no PC. Are you willing to bet money he would have let the guy go if he'd have said no? |
"Thug Motivation 101" ...Blood hound for the bread... .. I just smell money.... The conversation is money nigga, ...you want some? |
No...it needs to be deep sixed, buried, trashed, relegated to history alongside many other criminal acts masquerading as do gooding. There is zero... ABSOLUTELY ZERO justification for these actions. It's bad enough that the judicial system turns a blind eye to the constitution routinely and thumbs it's nose at the Bill of Rights. With civil asset forfeiture LEO doesn't even have to take the time and effort to jump through the hoops for a slam dunk conviction from a court system that is already hugely weighted against the average citizen. Now LEO simply has to articulate a suspicion...i.e. pull a BS excuse out of their ass and they get to keep peoples hard earned money. There are not enough words in the dictionary to express my anger at this practice and my utter disdain and digust for LEO that perpetrate this evil. Any LEO that believes civil asset forfeiture is oK and "just needs to be used for the right reasons and on the right suspects" is an enemy to freedom, this country, and me. |
Bulllshit! No conviciton, no asset seized, no exception. If a person does not get his day in court in front of a jury of his peers than anything the .gov siezes has been stolen . PERIOD. There is no other word to describe taking a persons property without his permission and without proper judicial review and ruling. When this bogus bullshit theft masquerading as law enforcement was first proposed there w as a lot of hue and cry about how it would be abused....and sure as hell it is. Dump this legalized theft along with its practicioners. |
In fact if you call him a child molester and cannot prove it you can be sued for libel/slander....and lose. The conviction in court counts. Until that occurs what a person is or isn't is just an opinion...and like assholes everyone has one and some of them stink. ETA The court system in America is corrupt, self serving, biased and unjust. However it is currently the only thing standing between people and either total anarchy or absolute rule without any oversight at all. It is at present a necessary evil and until it is either purged thoroughly or replaced with a better system it will stand. |
seriously... what a perverse set up we have now. were we to end the WoD, the drug cartels and the police would both be screaming bloody murder-for the same reason. money. |
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As a former LEO, I find how proud these "Take the sheriff," he says, motioning to his boss. "If I come in here and bring him $100,000, he gon' be jumping up and down? Absolutely. If I bring him 4 or 5 kilos, is he gon' be jumping up and down? Not as high." That quote says it all. This isn't about law enforcement. It's not about making society safer. It's not about catching criminals or stopping the drug trade. It's about money, plain and simple. And it's a fucking disgrace. |
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So if I drive a company truck, one which I have been told my employer will take a very dim view of ANY tickets, especially speeding tickets, and which has a big "How's my driving? Call 1-800-screwmeover" decal on the back, and I'm driving the speed limit, this officer has probable cause to pull me over because it is "suspicious" that I am speeding. If I exceed the limit, I'm a lawbreaker and he can give me a speeding ticket. So, no matter what, he thinks he has a reason to pull me over. And I am automatically considered a criminal. 
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I went back and read the article again, just to be clear on the whole thing when this jumped out at me.
And then this, the fruit doesn't fall far from the tree I guess:
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He said POSSIBLE felons. In other words, theres more to the situation than simply a speeding violation. Innocent til proven guilty is a standard for the courtroom, as you indicated. That is not the standard out on the street. |
I didn't argue the fact that he had no PC what so ever. I'm not betting anything that he would have let the guy go. If he wasn't intending to let the guy go, he wouldn't have asked to search. |
You obviously have no idea how the process works... The cop just doesn't get to 'stick up' some guy on the roadside & take his shit, that's that... Civil asset forfieture is done in court, in front of a judge... It's just a civil case, not a criminal one (Best example would be the 'OJ Principle').... Now, right now the burden of proof in the current version is fucked up - you have to prove the 'innocence' of your property... But it's a far cry from some cop just saying 'gimmie' And it's by no means a new invention... Look it up some time - it was around before the US was founded - and after... And for all the 'offenses of the Crown' that were explicitly banned in the Constitution (random definitions of treason, quartering, suspension of HC, and so on) - forfeiture didn't make the list... |
Actually, Dave, you are the one not getting it. When the POLICE went after OJ, it was a CRIMINAL trial. When Nicole's FAMILY went after OJ, it was a CIVIL trial. Again, ANY trial brought by the government is by definition a criminal trial. Still waiting for you to respond to my post on Cavalry Arms in this thread, by the way... |
Guess you want to be paying more taxes to fund and equip your police departments. I prefer to let all that criminal money buy equipment and give the taxpayers a break. |
Are you saying you go to court for tickets in which the cop accused you of not breaking the law? |
From the website of a traffic attorney: "Remember, a traffic ticket case is a criminal case, and you have important constitutional rights, guilty or not." |
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The offense is civil The penalty is civil. You get into some unclassified misedeanors and also felony charges with stuff like DWI, but my point remains that speeding trials don't conform to your claim that everything the government does is criminal and not civil. |
Yes, to punish possibly innocent people by denying them a right to a trial and just stealing their money. So on top of the "War on Drugs" being an attack on our 2nd, 4th, and 5th amendment rights, it is an attack on your property. You are amazing. |