[ARCHIVED THREAD] - ATF releases multiple Notices of Proposed Rulemaking and Final Rules (Page 8 of 9)
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Sour grapes guy bitching that ATF won’t say a SBR isn’t an SBR if you use a brace instead of a stock. |
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Quoted: You didn't hear the story about that guy shooting his SBR at some big shooting range event, in which ATF agents attended to check everyone's gear only to find him with no info engraving on his SBR? So the ATF agent whipped out his electopen right there and engraved it for him. That story floated around ARF for years Quoted: Quoted: Another one of those where I question if anyone has actually been charged solely with not engraving their SBR. You didn't hear the story about that guy shooting his SBR at some big shooting range event, in which ATF agents attended to check everyone's gear only to find him with no info engraving on his SBR? So the ATF agent whipped out his electopen right there and engraved it for him. That story floated around ARF for years |
| It never really made sense to me why I can travel across state lines with any rifle, but if that rifle has a barrel less than 16” I have to have permission from the federal government. I am not engaging in interstate commerce or criminal activity- it’s just more compact and convenient to travel. Heck, you are still responsible for complying with state law and still have to carry documentation (stamps) when traveling. |
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Quoted: I wouldn't put those in the same bucket. 922r, in practical terms, mostly only applies to commercial importers/manufacturers even if ATF says otherwise. It's effectively impossible to enforce at the individual level. They'd have to get their hands on a gun and then somehow prove the country of origin of each part. And all of that would have to start with someone noticing or caring. The NFA engraving requirement is a much different scenario. The NFA is ATF's most important law, and enforcement of the engraving requirement is very straightforward. Is it an NFA item? Is it registered on a F1 or F4? If a F1, is it marked as required? Get that wrong, and the ATF will shoot your wife, your kid, and your dog. You’re absolutely right about 922(r). But enforcing their engraving requirement isn’t as straightforward as you’d think. There’s no specific statute covering possession of an NFA firearm which is not properly engraved so they’d have to charge someone with violating 26 U.S.C. § 5861 if they didn’t engrave their SBR, which is the exact same offense they’d have to charge for possession of an unregistered SBR. The U.S. Attorney’s Office, and ATF, have some very specific procedures they go through for such a case (or any NFA case). They always make an official query of the NFRTR and have a response letter mailed off to the U.S. Attorney’s Office stating whether or not the firearm in question is registered to the defendant. That’s always their first step of prosecution, and they always use that evidence as their “Exhibit A.” If all someone did was fail to engrave, the firearm in question will be registered to them. The U.S. Attorney’s Offices have Assistant U.S. Attorneys (AUSAs) who always work with ATF special agents (SAs) on any case they’re considering prosecuting. The SA cannot make an arrest until after the AUSA approves the prosecution. Their field office simply won’t allow them to do it. It’s standard procedure. So without their primary evidence, I don’t see the AUSA and/or ATF moving forward with arresting/charging anyone for a lack of engraving. In fact I’ve never seen it, nor heard of it. If anyone has any info about someone ever being charged for a lack of NFA engraving please post it. I’m thinking they’d rather just make it not a crime since they cannot really enforce it anyway. |
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Quoted: You didn’t hear the story about that guy shooting his SBR at some big shooting range event, in which ATF agents attended to check everyone’s gear…only to find him with no info engraving on his SBR? So the ATF agent whipped out his electopen right there and engraved it for him. That story floated around ARF for years… Quoted: Quoted: Another one of those where I question if anyone has actually been charged solely with not engraving their SBR. That story floated around ARF for years…  This wouldn’t have been an approved ATF procedure; that special agent simply took it upon himself to do that to the gun owner. |
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Quoted: It’s probably a true story, but that guy wasn’t charged and his firearm wasn’t seized (except during the shitty engraving). This wouldn’t have been an approved ATF procedure; that special agent simply took it upon himself to do that to the gun owner. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Another one of those where I question if anyone has actually been charged solely with not engraving their SBR. That story floated around ARF for years… This wouldn’t have been an approved ATF procedure; that special agent simply took it upon himself to do that to the gun owner. And the ATF agent just happened to be walking around with an electropen? That part that makes me think it didn't actually happen. |
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Quoted: seriously, does anyone else see any gray area in the machine gun/bump stock thing? Assuage my fear please. "Analogous motions" is the part that I'm squinting at. This change removes the "Analogous motions" wording, and if anything it strengthens the legality of things like FRTs. |
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Quoted: I am confused as to why a chalk round is verboten. Did they classify the chalk as a bullet that is larger than .51 cal? At one point in recent history they considered all 40mm ammunition to be “non-sporting” (because it’s larger than .50 caliber and has “no sporting use”) and therefore concluded any explosive materials contained within (such as the primer and/or .38 blank propellant) would constitute explosives not covered by the sporting ammunition exemptions and so they further restricted it, although they never prohibited possession. Effectively this made it where nobody would sell complete chalk rounds without a government use letter (or purchase order) but the whole M781 less the blank cartridge assembly contained no explosives and could still be sold without that blank cartridge installed, so some places did that and offered blanks separately (or through a different vendor so they couldn’t be in the same order/shipment). That was a few years ago, and idk what’s happened since then. I know a lot of users got into 3D printing their own stuff around that time. EDIT: Looks like AZAO will sell you both assemblies simultaneously: https://azaoinc.com/shop/ols/products/m781-40mm-chalk-trainer-round (3D printed not OEM) |
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Quoted: I'm not sure what you mean. This is just changing out the administrative ruling from the bumpstock ban era and returning it to a plain reading definition of a MG as stated in the actual law and as it was prior to the bumpstock ban. This change removes the "Analogous motions" wording, and if anything it strengthens the legality of things like FRTs. Quoted: Quoted: seriously, does anyone else see any gray area in the machine gun/bump stock thing? Assuage my fear please. "Analogous motions" is the part that I'm squinting at. This change removes the "Analogous motions" wording, and if anything it strengthens the legality of things like FRTs. Okay, thanks. I'm barely monolingual and lawyer-ese escapes me... Just wanted to make sure that was the case.
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Quoted: I haven't reviewed all 8 pages here, but does any revision deal with marijuana use and the 4473 form? Asking for a friend. No, that would require a change to federal law. The proposed changes are all in the CFR's which is good and bad. It's good in that a pro-gun administration can gut them, and bad in that an administration like Biden's could reinstate them. |
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Quoted: When are they scheduled. It’s been nearly a year. Quoted: Quoted: You forgot all of the court cases... When are they scheduled. It’s been nearly a year. https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/What-ever-happened-I-thought-there-was-suppose-to-be-a-law-suit-to-get-rid-of-the-tax-stamp-/5-2842369/?page=1&#i116617693 |
 ATF Goes PRO-2A! THIS Is What's CHANGING! |
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Quoted: A clear and concise listing of the changes (without comment) would be much more useful than wading through 8 pages of comments. ETA: and that includes having to watch an hour-long yap-fest video to get the info. Keep checking here: https://www.federalregister.gov/agencies/alcohol-tobacco-firearms-and-explosives-bureau#documents |
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Quoted: If anyone has any info about someone ever being charged for a lack of NFA engraving please post it. I’m thinking they’d rather just make it not a crime since they cannot really enforce it anyway. @KitBuilder wasn't that one of the many charges levied against the FPSRussia YouTuber? Another interesting aspect to engraving is "when?". I confess (and will probably be labeled a "boot-licker" for it) that I typically engrave BEFORE actually assembling the firearm into its NFA configuration, but I don't see anything in the LAW which says that. Frankly, I've got a helluva "todo" list, so it seems pretty valid that someone might not have gotten a "round tuit" for some particular Form 1 firearm or another. |
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Quoted: @KitBuilder wasn't that one of the many charges levied against the FPSRussia YouTuber? Another interesting aspect to engraving is "when?". I confess (and will probably be labeled a "boot-licker" for it) that I typically engrave BEFORE actually assembling the firearm into its NFA configuration, but I don't see anything in the LAW which says that. Frankly, I've got a helluva "todo" list, so it seems pretty valid that someone might not have gotten a "round tuit" for some particular Form 1 firearm or another. |
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Quoted: @KitBuilder wasn't that one of the many charges levied against the FPSRussia YouTuber? Quoted: @KitBuilder wasn't that one of the many charges levied against the FPSRussia YouTuber? I believe he was charged with (among other things) violating 26 U.S.C. §5842 for having a firearm with an altered or obliterated serial number. Google says it was due to being covered by paint but idk. EDIT: Google is also indicating that charge wasn’t prosecuted. Says he plead guilty to Possession with Intent to Distribute Marijuana and Butane Hash Oil, and all other charges were dismissed. He was sentenced to serve 56 days in prison and 2 years probation. Quoted: From what I can find it's always been an add on charge, I couldn't find any examples of anyone ever getting charged for a lack of engraving and nothing else. If you could even show me an example of it as an add-on charge, that’d be more than I’ve seen so far. |
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Quoted: Not that I'm aware of. I believe he was charged with (among other things) violating 26 U.S.C. 5842 for having a firearm with an altered or obliterated serial number. Google says it was due to being covered by paint but idk. EDIT: Google is also indicating that charge wasn't prosecuted. Says he plead guilty to Possession with Intent to Distribute Marijuana and Butane Hash Oil, and all other charges were dismissed. He was sentenced to serve 56 days in prison and 2 years probation. @RolandofGilead If you could even show me an example of it as an add-on charge, that'd be more than I've seen so far. Quoted: Quoted: @KitBuilder wasn't that one of the many charges levied against the FPSRussia YouTuber? I believe he was charged with (among other things) violating 26 U.S.C. 5842 for having a firearm with an altered or obliterated serial number. Google says it was due to being covered by paint but idk. EDIT: Google is also indicating that charge wasn't prosecuted. Says he plead guilty to Possession with Intent to Distribute Marijuana and Butane Hash Oil, and all other charges were dismissed. He was sentenced to serve 56 days in prison and 2 years probation. Quoted: From what I can find it's always been an add on charge, I couldn't find any examples of anyone ever getting charged for a lack of engraving and nothing else. If you could even show me an example of it as an add-on charge, that'd be more than I've seen so far. |
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Quoted: Another interesting aspect to engraving is "when?". I confess (and will probably be labeled a "boot-licker" for it) that I typically engrave BEFORE actually assembling the firearm into its NFA configuration, but I don't see anything in the LAW which says that. Frankly, I've got a helluva "todo" list, so it seems pretty valid that someone might not have gotten a "round tuit" for some particular Form 1 firearm or another. Once upon a time in the nfa sections here, somebody put out it was best practice to engrave BEFORE you even file. That way of it gets fucked up you don't have a problem. If it gets all engraved and everything is alright then file. |
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Quoted: You didn’t hear the story about that guy shooting his SBR at some big shooting range event, in which ATF agents attended to check everyone’s gear…only to find him with no info engraving on his SBR? So the ATF agent whipped out his electopen right there and engraved it for him. That story floated around ARF for years… Haven't heard of that one, if true he's one of the good ones. |
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I suddenly don't feel so bad about my home made engraving job 
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Quoted: Once upon a time in the nfa sections here, somebody put out it was best practice to engrave BEFORE you even file. That way of it gets fucked up you don't have a problem. If it gets all engraved and everything is alright then file. Quoted: Quoted: Another interesting aspect to engraving is "when?". I confess (and will probably be labeled a "boot-licker" for it) that I typically engrave BEFORE actually assembling the firearm into its NFA configuration, but I don't see anything in the LAW which says that. Frankly, I've got a helluva "todo" list, so it seems pretty valid that someone might not have gotten a "round tuit" for some particular Form 1 firearm or another. Once upon a time in the nfa sections here, somebody put out it was best practice to engrave BEFORE you even file. That way of it gets fucked up you don't have a problem. If it gets all engraved and everything is alright then file. |
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Quoted: A clear and concise listing of the changes (without comment) would be much more useful than wading through 8 pages of comments. ETA: and that includes having to watch an hour-long yap-fest video to get the info. page 5 Attached File |
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Can someone explain like I'm 5 years old what a "non over the counter firearm sale" actually is and what this change means to the average joe? I am good with the rest, but my google-fu is failing me for a clear and concise answer to the non over the counter definition...? |
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Quoted: Can someone explain like I'm 5 years old what a "non over the counter firearm sale" actually is and what this change means to the average joe? I am good with the rest, but my google-fu is failing me for a clear and concise answer to the non over the counter definition...? Mail order gun delivered to your door. Same as what Capitol does to deliver suppressors. |
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Quoted: Can someone explain like I'm 5 years old what a "non over the counter firearm sale" actually is and what this change means to the average joe? I am good with the rest, but my google-fu is failing me for a clear and concise answer to the non over the counter definition...? You can buy a firearm from an in state FFL without going there in person. |
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Quoted: Can someone explain like I'm 5 years old what a "non over the counter firearm sale" actually is and what this change means to the average joe? I am good with the rest, but my google-fu is failing me for a clear and concise answer to the non over the counter definition...? Face to face private sale? |
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Quoted: Face to face private sale? Quoted: Quoted: Can someone explain like I'm 5 years old what a "non over the counter firearm sale" actually is and what this change means to the average joe? I am good with the rest, but my google-fu is failing me for a clear and concise answer to the non over the counter definition...? Face to face private sale? No, this applies to FFL's. You fill out a 4473 online and a business in a town 3 hours away in the same state can ship you a firearm same as if you had walked into the store. |
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Quoted: Can someone explain like I'm 5 years old what a "non over the counter firearm sale" actually is and what this change means to the average joe? I am good with the rest, but my google-fu is failing me for a clear and concise answer to the non over the counter definition...? Thank you for asking. |
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Open Source Defense is an interesting read always, here they have their interpretation of the announcement https://opensourcedefense.substack.com/p/osd-375-breaking-down-each-of-the |
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Quoted: Thats actually pretty awesome. Quoted: Quoted: No, this applies to FFL's. You fill out a 4473 online and a business in a town 3 hours away in the same state can ship you a firearm same as if you had walked into the store. Thats actually pretty awesome. |
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Quoted: No, this applies to FFL's. You fill out a 4473 online and a business in a town 3 hours away in the same state can ship you a firearm same as if you had walked into the store. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Can someone explain like I'm 5 years old what a "non over the counter firearm sale" actually is and what this change means to the average joe? I am good with the rest, but my google-fu is failing me for a clear and concise answer to the non over the counter definition...? Face to face private sale? No, this applies to FFL's. You fill out a 4473 online and a business in a town 3 hours away in the same state can ship you a firearm same as if you had walked into the store. The big problem with non-OTC firearm sales is that 18 USC 922(c)(3) requires that the FFL send the transferee's CLEO a notification of the purchase and then wait seven days before shipping the gun, so in most instances it'll still be simpler to just go pick it up in person. It's one thing to add a week onto a purchase timeline for an NFA firearm that already takes a month-plus, but it's something else to add a week onto the purchase time for a non-NFA firearm that otherwise could be done in minutes. |