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Here's a drill to illustrate the usefulness of a shoulder fired weapon vs any pistol in any configuration. At 5 yards set up a reasonably sized vital zone target-IDPA, IPSC, 8.5" x !!' piece of paper etc. Begin with the pistol held muzzle depressed, any degree you want just use the same for the long gun. Preferably with a timer, at signal see your sights and fire one shot as quickly as possible. Repeat with a long gun. Use a separate target if possible, but score and mark your hits. Walk this back a couple of yards each rep. Somewhere between 10 and 15 yards, the elapsed time and score will start to tilt towards the long gun. The disparity will grow depending on your skill level until finally you can't make the shot reliably with the pistol in any amount of time. At 25 yards most people are slowing way down with a pistol and getting poorer hits- on a static, fully exposed target in range conditions. Even relatively poor shots are just getting started at 25 with a shoulder weapon, with little loss of speed. Now, repeat the drill using a much smaller target, as behind cover...then two targets...then fire controlled pairs... Now, the closer a threat is, the more urgent the need for very fast and relatively precise hits becomes. This is where a pistol with its handiness, retention and speed from a holster has its day. But when you extend the range a surprisingly small amount, then solid, accountable hits on moving targets(or briefly exposed or smaller targets) in chaotic situations becomes many times easier with any long gun. Clint Smith conceptualized this in the early 80s as the "Urban Rifle" using a long gun to achieve overmatch inside and just beyond traditional handgun employment ranges. Precision, speed, power and capacity all favored the long gun at the three most common distances: the width of a car, the length of a car, the length of two cars and across a street. From there, it's a question of parsing what you're willing to put up with, how much you're willing to pay and how much discretion you believe is needed for your use case. For "medium spicy" times, you might come down more on discretion than on a larger weapon if your use case involves moving the PDW very discreetly into and out of a place of work. This could be where a pistol sized stocked gun could shine, like a chassis gun. A hit from modern bonded JHP bullets is not shrugged off lightly when placed well, as you can do with a shoulder mounted weapon with great speed and precision. Yes, a rifle is more powerful, at the cost of size, weight and muzzle blast. TANSTAAFL, either way. Looking at the price of a Rattler, a suppressor and two stamps you might have to press your 16" carbine into service, or even your scoped 10-22 or M&P 15-22...it will get hits your pistol can't at even close ranges. "You pays your nickel and you takes your chances." |
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I was doing timed rifle drills last week. I was hitting the a zone with an AR carbine/3x optic at 25 yards from the low ready at 0.9-0.98 seconds with follow ups 0.18-0.22 seconds. I can just get down to 1.1 seconds with a handgun from concealment at 7 yards. Here's a shockwave getting a hit at 1.1 at 7 yards.  shockwave on the clock. 5 rounds in 4 seconds. average split 0.7 sec Obviously we're not walking around with long guns which is why we carry handguns. |
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Quoted: Obviously we're not walking around with long guns which is why we carry handguns. Right. Thats what I’m doing too. But if the situation changes and its not quite openly carried rifles time, pdws might be useful. Its not purchase rationalization either, I’m perfectly comfortable buying weird shit just for the hell of it. 
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Quoted: Right. Thats what I’m doing too. But if the situation changes and its not quite openly carried rifles time, pdws might be useful. Its not purchase rationalization either, I’m perfectly comfortable buying weird shit just for the hell of it. Quoted: Quoted: Obviously we're not walking around with long guns which is why we carry handguns. Right. Thats what I’m doing too. But if the situation changes and its not quite openly carried rifles time, pdws might be useful. Its not purchase rationalization either, I’m perfectly comfortable buying weird shit just for the hell of it. That is the joy of the rifle caliber small/compact PDW. We actually can carry a rifle around, in day to day activities, in addition to a handgun. Different tools that can be utilized in different scenarios. |
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Quoted: Right. Thats what I’m doing too. But if the situation changes and its not quite openly carried rifles time, pdws might be useful. Its not purchase rationalization either, I’m perfectly comfortable buying weird shit just for the hell of it. Quoted: Quoted: Obviously we're not walking around with long guns which is why we carry handguns. Right. Thats what I’m doing too. But if the situation changes and its not quite openly carried rifles time, pdws might be useful. Its not purchase rationalization either, I’m perfectly comfortable buying weird shit just for the hell of it. Yeah. I think I stopped mid thought  American 180 - Swarm of Angry Bees This would be fun |
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Quoted: I do what I can. Once I had armor, nv and thermal I decided the basics were covered and it was time to get weird with it. Quoted: Quoted: Dang OP, looks like you have the appropriate attire to match every party that might be thrown in 2024.  I do what I can. Once I had armor, nv and thermal I decided the basics were covered and it was time to get weird with it. I think I missed out on my opportunities to get a PDW that would fit inside my HPG kit bag.  |
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Quoted: 320 in a B&T chassis is about as small as you can get, I think. And its dang small. More modern Skorpion than the Scorpion CZ sells these days… https://i.imgur.com/Rxcm1A6.jpeg Better caliber too. |
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Quoted: I love my VZ61. Would happily feed a commie 20 rounds of .32 acp (in minecraft) Probably makes it a lot easier to handle in full auto. And I mean Vz61, you can film any 70s-80s action movie you want! Practically speaking, the 320 B&T chassis has same capacity, better caliber, a light, and a red dot and is still more practical to conceal. Nowhere near as sexy though. |
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Quoted: Which stock/brace is that? I want it. Quoted: Which stock/brace is that? I want it. @AlamTX Flux for the Glock. I don’t think they make it any longer…or it’s been OOS forever. |
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Quoted: Practically speaking, the 320 B&T chassis has same capacity, better caliber, a light, and a red dot and is still more practical to conceal. Nowhere near as sexy though. The B&T is nice because its absolutely designed as a pistol replacement. I’ve carried it and its easy to draw and use as a slightly large pistol. The Flux makes more sense as a bag gun than the B&T. Extra ammo attached, a safety, and the non reciprocating dot make it easier to shoot and carry off body. I’ll get some loaded weights between the Rattler and the Flux next week. Its a pretty substantial difference. |
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Quoted: 320 in a B&T chassis is about as small as you can get, I think. And its dang small. More modern Skorpion than the Scorpion CZ sells these days… https://i.imgur.com/Rxcm1A6.jpeg Quoted: Quoted: I think I missed out on my opportunities to get a PDW that would fit inside my HPG kit bag. 320 in a B&T chassis is about as small as you can get, I think. And its dang small. More modern Skorpion than the Scorpion CZ sells these days… https://i.imgur.com/Rxcm1A6.jpeg That’s about the only thing that would seriously tempt me to get something in the 320 platform, especially with the manual safety capability. Maybe I’ll get one when they come back in stock, if the world doesn’t go to hell in a hand-basket before then. |
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I wish you guys could try a USW-A1… the whole point in having a PDW is being able to bridge distances between handgun/CQB and Rifle distance targets… the USW has the single action trigger to do that well and a double action trigger that is safe enough to carry chambered and smooth enough to not penalize you much if your first shot at distance has to be uncocked. And it folds down to handgun size similar in size/weight to an Sig P226. |
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It seems odd that Flux stopped selling braces for Glocks, but... Recover Tactical is still selling a braced chassis system for Glocks. Pretty affordable & well designed. They sell a forward optic mount separately. It will flex if you push on it, but it appears to hold zero well enough. Their "holster" works pretty well, too. The 20/20NMG Kit is a great place to start. My $.02 from the ones I have handled. Great thread & discussion. John |
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Quoted: I wish you guys could try a USW-A1… the whole point in having a PDW is being able to bridge distances between handgun/CQB and Rifle distance targets… I like the USW concept. Its more on the handgun side of the spectrum but still adds some serious capability. Will be shooting some timed groups at 100 with all the options just to see what the hit percentage looks like between the options I own. I’ve shot free standing pistol at 100 before and sadly about 60-70% is my usual hit ratio on a USPSA target at that distance. |
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Quoted: @AlamTX Flux for the Glock. I don't think they make it any longer or it's been OOS forever. Quoted: Quoted: Which stock/brace is that? I want it. @AlamTX Flux for the Glock. I don't think they make it any longer or it's been OOS forever. I guess you can only buy it from Flux? |
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Quoted: Rattler with a K can. Fits in a basic (tiny, 19L) Northface backpack with suppressor attached. Didn't buy it to be my traveling PDW but I'll be damned if it isn't perfect in that role. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/359052/1000005533_jpg-3085930.JPG My 10.5” folder lives in the same backpack without the can attached. Laptop pocket holds a large ceramic plate perfectly. |
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I bought a 9mm MPX because it seemed like a sweet compact "travel" gun. Then I got a Glock Flux brace, and eventually a Sig Rattler. Now the MPX is just a range toy. If I want more than a standard handgun, but I want it to be as small and low profile as possible - the Flux Glock provides that capability given I have to accept pistol ammo ballistics. If I am going to move up in size and weight, then the Rattler provides rifle-caliber ballistics in essentially the same size/weight package as the MPX. MPX before: Attached File Glock Flux: Attached File Attached File Rattler: Attached File MPX these days: Attached File |
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Quoted: if palmetto state armory starts making their 9mm ar15, that uses smg mags, id be 100% interested in some pistol versions with braces and 8-10" barrels or so. https://www.ar15.com/forums/General/PSA-dropping-new-item-soon/5-2683788/ https://palmettostatearmory.com/harrington-richardson-635-9mm-complete-lower-black.html?avad=234121_c3670f0b1&utm_source=Avantlink&utm_medium=Referral&utm_campaign=cl https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/92687/pal_jpg-3088253.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/92687/pal_9mm_JPG-3088258.JPG Shortest one I own. 
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Quoted: My AR was too long and heavy, so I paid the $200 to SBR it. Then it was too loud so I paid another $200 and bought a suppressor for it. Now my AR is too long and heavy again...  6” of suppressor length/weight even slowly direct threaded is far quicker than detaching 6” of barrel length/weight though. That’s how I justify it to myself.
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Quoted: I hope the day soon arrives when the SBR stupidity goes away and we can have a renaissance of compact weapons. Braces opened the door to a lot of innovation in that sphere but losing the SBR and SBS laws would do even more and I expect we'd see a lot of cool new stuff. Yep, NFA killed a ton of innovation. If it wasnt for braces we wouldnt have the options or the interest we do now. |
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Quoted: Yep, NFA killed a ton of innovation. If it wasnt for braces we wouldnt have the options or the interest we do now. Quoted: Quoted: I hope the day soon arrives when the SBR stupidity goes away and we can have a renaissance of compact weapons. Braces opened the door to a lot of innovation in that sphere but losing the SBR and SBS laws would do even more and I expect we'd see a lot of cool new stuff. Yep, NFA killed a ton of innovation. If it wasnt for braces we wouldnt have the options or the interest we do now. Absolutely! Some places still wanted a copy of a Form 1/4 to sell you a <16” upper back in the cane/crutch tip and tennis ball on buffer tube days. There was almost no interest pre Sig’s original heavy rubber brace for AR pistols. |
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Quoted: One thing with PDWs, those retractable wire stocks need to die. It beats nothing but there are so many better options now. They do suck, but I love how they look-they are all based on the M-16 port firing weapon that tankers used. We used to have a 30” minimum for rifles in MI or they would force you to register the rifle as a pistol thinking they were being cute. It was all fun and games until Michigan passed a Concealed Pistols License carry scheme….. That allowed us to carry weapons that were previously registered as pistols legally on our persons or in cars. Oops. They freaked out and fixed that but allowed the existing weapons to be grandfathered in prior to 2013. Then when SBR’s became legal, their new minimum length of 26” to force registration makes those pistols too. Idiots… We can carry those now… This is what my pre-2013 “pistol” looks like when I built it. It wears a 16” Superior Barrels lightweight profile, a harris bipod, and a TA33 ACOG. I took it to the Appleseed long range clinic at Camp Atterbury and was smoking shoulder-up targets out to 400m using Wolf 55 grain (it was supplied, ammo was damned scarce in 2013) af targets sitting standing, kneeling, and prone…my 400m group was about 4’ wide and 6” tall. Not bad for a “pistol”: Attached File Attached File |
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Quoted: I bought a 9mm MPX because it seemed like a sweet compact "travel" gun. Then I got a Glock Flux brace, and eventually a Sig Rattler. Now the MPX is just a range toy. If I want more than a standard handgun, but I want it to be as small and low profile as possible - the Flux Glock provides that capability given I have to accept pistol ammo ballistics. If I am going to move up in size and weight, then the Rattler provides rifle-caliber ballistics in essentially the same size/weight package as the MPX. MPX before: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/435611/363527707_836385967882561_69704106526876-3092306.JPG Glock Flux: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/435611/364545939_703621391730232_30296837145165-3092307.JPGhttps://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/435611/364546452_332313499122934_42069172655768-3092309.JPG Rattler: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/435611/364535846_1086380095671493_6019615665124-3092312.JPG MPX these days: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/435611/364542426_607092761298193_88247343511416-3092314.JPG I can’t tell you how geeked I was to try an MPX and how let down I was when I finally got to shoot one…. Way too heavy and chunky, and no reason for it. The way Sig built them totally answered the question of why you would want a 9mm over an AR in the same size package, hands down. Okay, maybe suppressed use indoors, but I’m having a really hard time understanding why I would want to buy one now that RDB barrels and bolts are available as well as delay buffers that I can WECSOG up my own lighter, smaller version for less money.. |
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Quoted:  And the Evo actually comes with a decent folding stock option.Quoted: Quoted: @Bartholomew_Roberts you shut your whore mouth! I want a CZ Scorpion Evo Micro with one of said stocks something fierce... And the Evo actually comes with a decent folding stock option.Oh, and it is awesome, the folding stock option. But...the micro with the collapsible wire brace fits inside my truck glove box and center console both. Very convenient for travel. |
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Quoted: They do suck, but I love how they look-they are all based on the M-16 port firing weapon that tankers used. We used to have a 30” minimum for rifles in MI or they would force you to register the rifle as a pistol thinking they were being cute. It was all fun and games until Michigan passed a Concealed Pistols License carry scheme….. That allowed us to carry weapons that were previously registered as pistols legally on our persons or in cars. Oops. They freaked out and fixed that but allowed the existing weapons to be grandfathered in prior to 2013. Then when SBR’s became legal, their new minimum length of 26” to force registration makes those pistols too. Idiots… We can carry those now… This is what my pre-2013 “pistol” looks like when I built it. It wears a 16” Superior Barrels lightweight profile, a harris bipod, and a TA33 ACOG. I took it to the Appleseed long range clinic at Camp Atterbury and was smoking shoulder-up targets out to 400m using Wolf 55 grain (it was supplied, ammo was damned scarce in 2013) af targets sitting standing, kneeling, and prone…my 400m group was about 4’ wide and 6” tall. Not bad for a “pistol”: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/48873/_storage_6135-3133_DCIM_Camera_IMG_20130-3092463.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/48873/_storage_6135-3133_DCIM_Camera_IMG_20130-3092464.JPG At least that version has the mini-buffer tube for a cheekweld instead of a steel bar. I used to always try and grab the MP5A2 because of the A3 stock. |
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Quoted: One thing with PDWs, those retractable wire stocks need to die. It beats nothing but there are so many better options now. The B&T retractable on a MP5K is the lightest, smallest package. Yeah, the thick sidefolding stock is more comfortable to shoot but the retractable is the move for a lightweight concealable pdw. 
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In the late 80s/early 90s, they'd remove the stocks entirely and push out on the sling to stabilize - usually for more dynamic stuff; but it works. With red dots, it is even a more viable technique. Having said that, if I was trying to push out the range above 100m, I'd probably go with the wire retractable stock over nothing. Collapsible/folding stocks have come such a long way now though. There are so many really great options it shocks me to see the wire stocks making a comeback. |
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Anyone have any experience with the LWRC SMG-45 ? Does it exist? Being sold currently? Worth a shit ? It’s got a high cool / WANT factor to it, but definitely not cheap, My top choices for a PCC price wise, top to bottom , would be the LWRC SMG-45, But most unlikely for various reasons, price being one. Next would be an sig MPX , MP-5 variant, and lastly, but probably most likely, the colt / ar-15 style 9mm SMG using 32rd stick mags. I’d say the chances of me buying the colt style smg / sig mpx and mp-5 / all 3 of those to be 100% within the next 5 years, with a colt style ar-15 smg style probably next, as I can probably build 2 or even 3 for mp5 clone money. Anyway.. is the LWRC any good ? Attached File |
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I remember reading there were reliability problems with them-it’s a novel operating system. Could also be operator error or failure to clean, but I expect a gun to be pretty darn reliable if I am lax on the cleaning and lube. The world is full of high quality guns that don’t have to be pampered princesses to run.. For my money, if it had to be a dedicated 9mm PDW, a self built AR9 would be the way to go as I could make the gun I wanted. If I were the type that couldn’t snap legos together, it would probably be a Stribog A3. But honestly, those are still full sized guns so i wouldn’t be likely to have them with me when I needed them and if I took a weapon somewhere in a bag it would be a proper 5.56 AR. I haven’t shot any suppressed .300 but my neighbor up on my rural property does and it ain’t quiet at all. Doesn’t hide the fact that someone just shot something 300 yards away in dense woods or the direction so doesn’t seem to offer any real benefit. But brace chassis setups like my Glock or my USW-A1 always go with me when I want more than a handgun. |
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Quoted: The B&T retractable on a MP5K is the lightest, smallest package. Yeah, the thick sidefolding stock is more comfortable to shoot but the retractable is the move for a lightweight concealable pdw. https://i.imgur.com/4dmPDrQ.jpeg Yep. I have that stock and their MBT, and whilr the MBT is more comfortable, the telescoping stock lives on my APC9 Pro most of the time, because it's insanely quick to deploy fast, just by pulling it, and almost as easy to push right back into place. Hell you can push the button and let gravity do the rest. Bonus, it supports different lengths of pull. But with the hydraulic buffer, it's pricey. |
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Quoted: Anyone have any experience with the LWRC SMG-45 ? Does it exist? Being sold currently? Worth a shit ? It’s got a high cool / WANT factor to it, but definitely not cheap, My top choices for a PCC price wise, top to bottom , would be the LWRC SMG-45, But most unlikely for various reasons, price being one. Next would be an sig MPX , MP-5 variant, and lastly, but probably most likely, the colt / ar-15 style 9mm SMG using 32rd stick mags. I’d say the chances of me buying the colt style smg / sig mpx and mp-5 / all 3 of those to be 100% within the next 5 years, with a colt style ar-15 smg style probably next, as I can probably build 2 or even 3 for mp5 clone money. Anyway.. is the LWRC any good ? https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/92687/IMG_6607_jpeg-3092549.JPG Seen lot of problems with those on this forum and on YouTube. Also to suppress it you need a booster because the barrel moves. That's dumb on a PCC. I would get a B&T GHM or APC, or wait until the Stribog SP45A3 gets approved. |
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Quoted: I”m a big fan of chassis systems on handguns. No, they aren’t as effective as something dedicated as the B&T USW-A1, but they are the best money you can spend on an extra handgun you have laying around. Seriously, for roughly $100 you can take your RDS equipped handgun and turn it into a 33 round carbine equivalent that fits in a fucking glove box. It is a functional equivalent to an AR in 9mm but the small size factor means you are much more likely to have it with you when you need it. I’d be no more likely to have an a 9mm AR with me than a full blown rifle so this type of handgun based weapon makes sense for me: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/48873/IMG_2076_jpeg-3086378.JPG while cool looking, barrel and ballistics make no sense to me or a g34 other than just having the bigger mag from the start explain more? |
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Quoted: while cool looking, barrel and ballistics make no sense to me or a g34 other than just having the bigger mag from the start explain more? It's like taking the handgun one step closer to a rifle. You have the better handling and stability of a rifle, but maintain the pistol ballistics (as well as size weight and compactness). It's a compromise. |
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Quoted: while cool looking, barrel and ballistics make no sense to me or a g34 other than just having the bigger mag from the start explain more? Hit probability increase at longer range A weapon you can take with you anywhere discretely and are more likely to have with you-they will fit loaded in to just about any glove compartment This is a PDW thread, there are always superior cartridges out there and ways to throw a tiny piece of lead at someone who needs it. We are talking about next level options above handguns in personal protection roles,….. I’d rather have my 2 gun rig in a gunfight than a USW-1 most of the time, but it’s not like I roll everywhere with a loaded rifle. A braced handgunl makes a lot of sense. |
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Quoted: Hit probability increase at longer range A weapon you can take with you anywhere discretely and are more likely to have with you-they will fit loaded in to just about any glove compartment This is a PDW thread, there are always superior cartridges out there and ways to throw a tiny piece of lead at someone who needs it. We are talking about next level options above handguns in personal protection roles,….. I’d rather have my 2 gun rig in a gunfight than a USW-1 most of the time, but it’s not like I roll everywhere with a loaded rifle. A braced handgunl makes a lot of sense. Quoted: Quoted: while cool looking, barrel and ballistics make no sense to me or a g34 other than just having the bigger mag from the start explain more? Hit probability increase at longer range A weapon you can take with you anywhere discretely and are more likely to have with you-they will fit loaded in to just about any glove compartment This is a PDW thread, there are always superior cartridges out there and ways to throw a tiny piece of lead at someone who needs it. We are talking about next level options above handguns in personal protection roles,….. I’d rather have my 2 gun rig in a gunfight than a USW-1 most of the time, but it’s not like I roll everywhere with a loaded rifle. A braced handgunl makes a lot of sense. I’m one of the weirdos that likes the Recover Tactical too. I keep the buttstock on it. I can just unscrew the buttstock and have a braced pistol and skip the .20s |
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I'm a huge fan (I get the irony) of PDW for most civilian use. Have been chasing their use for years, and have owned a pretty decent number of the major versions. One is the glock flux, and I've owned that going on ~7 years now I guess? For me, that's the damn smallest version that you can actually do something with. Still fits in the stock glock box (or a glove box) and hits to 100 yards, even with newer shooters. I can do it fast. Yes it's a pistol round, and that's the limitation. the next step is a rattler. 5.5" barrel and folding stock. I think that picture of it next to a 1911 is mine, I'll look for it and post. It's heavy but not huge and can still live in a discreet bag. I put mine is my kid's old backpack, and getting in and out of a mini van with kids in town, it's perfect camo. I trust it to 100+ yards and it has 3x+ the energy of 9mm and hits that permanent tissue disruption number. So yeah its more money per round and not a cheap gun, but I live in the SE USA. I travel in cities and small towns, not wide open plains. I can't imagine needing (or even being able to shoot) past 300 yards in anywhere near reasonable SD, so this is fine. I got my wife a lever 357. It's a PCC technically but as short as can be, while still having better ballistics and easier to shoot by someone with less training. Had both that and my rattler (no can!) during our active shooter adventure a year ago, and a real caliber that's shoulder fired is way more comforting than a single pistol, no matter how good you are with said pistol. I've also transitioned to shorter ARs for all my uses. Long guns that aren't that long are the sweet spot. Attached File Attached File Attached File |