14 1/2 inch Shotgun not an AOW ? LETTER ARRIVED 12/27 Pg21 - Page 2

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - 14 1/2 inch Shotgun not an AOW ? LETTER ARRIVED 12/27 Pg21 (Page 2 of 22)

Posted: 8/12/2010 6:47:13 PM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:

Quoted:

I think I know where you're going with this. According to the ATF, you can have a barrel shorter than 16" on a Browning 1919A4 as long as the OAL is greater than 26" because the 1919 is just a firearm, not a rifle. The ATF classifies a pistol grip only shotgun as just a firearm also (which is why you have to be 21 or over to buy one from a dealer). So, as long as the OAL is greater than 26", it shouldn't matter what the barrel length is.

I would want that in writing, though.

I was going to wait but I have seen a letter saying just that in reference to a shotgun

Shhhhhh, you're chasing my pigeons away LOL

Posted: 8/12/2010 6:47:50 PM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:

Quoted:

I thought the NFA was clear on these definitions. I guess we'll have to see what drama llama is cooking up with this build-up here, instead of having proof and posting the story all at once.

Drama llama?

I didn't post the proof because the Tech branch letter is not here yet.

But it's coming smart ass

I'm tracking, drama llama, you could have just waited until it was there.

Who are you the thread police?

Get a life

Posted: 8/12/2010 6:48:31 PM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I think I know where you're going with this. According to the ATF, you can have a barrel shorter than 16" on a Browning 1919A4 as long as the OAL is greater than 26" because the 1919 is just a firearm, not a rifle. The ATF classifies a pistol grip only shotgun as just a firearm also (which is why you have to be 21 or over to buy one from a dealer). So, as long as the OAL is greater than 26", it shouldn't matter what the barrel length is.

I would want that in writing, though.

I was going to wait but I have seen a letter saying just that in reference to a shotgun

Shhhhhh, you're chasing my pigeons away LOL

sorry about that

Posted: 8/12/2010 6:48:39 PM EDT

[#4]

this site seems to disagree with you. However, I am interested in your interpretation. I would hide your dogs, just in case.

Posted: 8/12/2010 6:48:42 PM EDT

[#5]

I think you misinterpeted the BATFE response.

It must have a smoothbore barrel.

It must have a RIFLED barrel

Posted: 8/12/2010 6:48:44 PM EDT

[#6]

BTW, for mathematical sake, how long is an 870 receiver? How long is the pistol grip?

I don't think the receiver of an 870+pistol grip = 12" or more. Does it?

Meaning a 14.25" barrel might still be an issue for OAL. Certainly a 12" barrel would be bad.

Posted: 8/12/2010 6:48:45 PM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Does this mean I can get a KAC masterkey?!

interesting.....

There is a a requirement that is must still have an overall length from the furthest point of the pistol grip to the end of the barrel of 26 inches. (26 1/4 to be safe)

It must be smooth bore too.

This is not my opinion, this is fact and I will prove this in a couple of days , give or take a week or two.

Now if you have a 14 1/2 inch barrel and a standard pistol grip you will be under the mandated 26 inch rule.

So the distance between the breach end of the barrel and the rear-most part of the pistol grip is 12"?

doesn't matter, the overall has to be 26 inches

Posted: 8/12/2010 6:49:15 PM EDT

[#8]

Let's just say you COULD have this.

Why would you WANT one?

Posted: 8/12/2010 6:49:28 PM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:

Quoted:

I doubt it.

I'll tell you what

I will donate $100.00 to this site if I am wrong

If you're wrong you do the same.

Bet?

Are you sure?

http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf

Barrel length is determined by measuring from the breech face to muzzle for all but revolvers which are measured from cylinder gap to muzzle.

Anything with a bore diameter over "one half inch" defined in rifles by land to land diameter (not groove), is a DD unless exempted by the Director (and there is none now). Therefore, all shotguns over 43 gauge in diameter are blanket exempted by the Director who HAS in past, revoked the sporting clause exemption on certain shotguns. And shotguns must have a barrel length over 18", otherwise it is a short barreled shotgun

(6) The term "short-barreled shotgun"

means a shotgun having one or

more barrels less than eighteen inches

in length and any weapon made from a

shotgun (whether by alteration, modification,

or otherwise) if such weapon as

modified has an overall length of less

than twenty-six inches.

Good luck. Going to be hard to get by the barrel length restriction

It could be a .410 to skirt the DD classification, ya know...

12 ga

Posted: 8/12/2010 6:49:47 PM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:

Quoted:
i have heard that the pistol grip has to be integral to the receiver (all one piece) thus, it is no different from say, the *forgive me father* Judge revolver

ETA - for it to be considered a smoothbore handgun vs. an sbs

wrong, nothing to do with it, the judge is a pistol, it has a rifled barrel

oh snap, totally overlooked that factor. OP's answer ^

Posted: 8/12/2010 6:50:18 PM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:

Yeah I think SURBU would have stopped making all those cool short shotguns out of pistol grip pumps and paying the $5 to do it also... ( That is, if what you are saying is true, but I doubt it.

read the specs in the first post, the overall length has to be at least 26 "

Posted: 8/12/2010 6:51:00 PM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:

Get a life

You first.

Posted: 8/12/2010 6:51:07 PM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:

I think you misinterpeted the BATFE response.

It must have a smoothbore barrel.

It must have a RIFLED barrel

nope smooth bore

Posted: 8/12/2010 6:52:20 PM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:

BTW, for mathematical sake, how long is an 870 receiver? How long is the pistol grip?

I don't think the receiver of an 870+pistol grip = 12" or more. Does it?

Meaning a 14.25" barrel might still be an issue for OAL. Certainly a 12" barrel would be bad.

I was going to tell you the key to this but you called me a drama llama so I think I won't LOL

Posted: 8/12/2010 6:53:06 PM EDT

[#15]

inTeresting And intriGuing.

Posted: 8/12/2010 6:53:38 PM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:

Let's just say you COULD have this.

Why would you WANT one?

the 14 1/2 barrel seems to be the magic number for whatever reason for home defense and the fact that no one knew they could have it.

Posted: 8/12/2010 6:53:59 PM EDT

[#17]

Spacer between the receiver and pistol grip?

Posted: 8/12/2010 6:54:01 PM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:
BRB, I'm gonna go take a hacksaw to my 870 barrel. An ARFCOMMER said it's ok, so I know I won't get in trouble. The internet said so.

needs "you gonna get raped!" pic

Posted: 8/12/2010 6:54:35 PM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:
BTW, for mathematical sake, how long is an 870 receiver? How long is the pistol grip?

I don't think the receiver of an 870+pistol grip = 12" or more. Does it?

Meaning a 14.25" barrel might still be an issue for OAL. Certainly a 12" barrel would be bad.

870 with low angle pistol grip:

Posted: 8/12/2010 6:54:57 PM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Does this mean I can get a KAC masterkey?!

interesting.....

There is a a requirement that is must still have an overall length from the furthest point of the pistol grip to the end of the barrel of 26 inches. (26 1/4 to be safe)
It must be smooth bore too.
This is not my opinion, this is fact and I will prove this in a couple of days , give or take a week or two.
Now if you have a 14 1/2 inch barrel and a standard pistol grip you will be under the mandated 26 inch rule.

So the distance between the breach end of the barrel and the rear-most part of the pistol grip is 12"?

doesn't matter, the overall has to be 26 inches

That's what I'm saying: 14 1/2" barrel + 11 1/2" receiver/pistol grip = 26" overall length, correct?

I'd actually be very interested in this since I like the idea of a shorter barrel even if it means being limited to a pistol grip.

Posted: 8/12/2010 6:55:09 PM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:

Spacer between the receiver and pistol grip?

That's one way to achieve the 26"

Not my way , but A way

Posted: 8/12/2010 6:56:10 PM EDT

[#22]

what are you tack welding the barrel to a receiver so that its considered a single unit?

Posted: 8/12/2010 6:56:11 PM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Does this mean I can get a KAC masterkey?!

interesting.....

There is a a requirement that is must still have an overall length from the furthest point of the pistol grip to the end of the barrel of 26 inches. (26 1/4 to be safe)
It must be smooth bore too.
This is not my opinion, this is fact and I will prove this in a couple of days , give or take a week or two.
Now if you have a 14 1/2 inch barrel and a standard pistol grip you will be under the mandated 26 inch rule.

I fail didn't read that part.

Posted: 8/12/2010 6:56:20 PM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Spacer between the receiver and pistol grip?

That's one way to achieve the 26"
Not my way , but A way

Still tagged then.

Posted: 8/12/2010 6:57:52 PM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:

Quoted:
BTW, for mathematical sake, how long is an 870 receiver? How long is the pistol grip?

I don't think the receiver of an 870+pistol grip = 12" or more. Does it?

Meaning a 14.25" barrel might still be an issue for OAL. Certainly a 12" barrel would be bad.

870 with low angle pistol grip:
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g110/firestormus/IMG_0447.jpg

How long is the barrel on that? From what jrzy is saying, it could be 14 1/2".

Posted: 8/12/2010 6:57:55 PM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Yeah I think SURBU would have stopped making all those cool short shotguns out of pistol grip pumps and paying the $5 to do it also... ( That is, if what you are saying is true, but I doubt it.

read the specs in the first post, the overall length has to be at least 26 "

Just measured a Mossberg 500 Pistol grip shotgun...

26 inches would make it so I could cut a whole 1 inch off the barrel!!!!!!!

Posted: 8/12/2010 6:58:56 PM EDT

[#27]

Tag for outcome

Posted: 8/12/2010 7:00:29 PM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:

what are you tack welding the barrel to a receiver so that its considered a single unit?

why?

and no we aren't

Posted: 8/12/2010 7:01:15 PM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Yeah I think SURBU would have stopped making all those cool short shotguns out of pistol grip pumps and paying the $5 to do it also... ( That is, if what you are saying is true, but I doubt it.

read the specs in the first post, the overall length has to be at least 26 "

Just measured a Mossberg 500 Pistol grip shotgun...

26 inches would make it so I could cut a whole 1 inch off the barrel!!!!!!!

fail

Posted: 8/12/2010 7:02:20 PM EDT

[#30]

Tagged for interest.

Posted: 8/12/2010 7:02:49 PM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:

Quoted:
BTW, for mathematical sake, how long is an 870 receiver? How long is the pistol grip?

I don't think the receiver of an 870+pistol grip = 12" or more. Does it?

Meaning a 14.25" barrel might still be an issue for OAL. Certainly a 12" barrel would be bad.

870 with low angle pistol grip:
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g110/firestormus/IMG_0447.jpg

How long is the barrel on that? From what jrzy is saying, it could be 14 1/2".

He may be right, but I don't think so. Three inches of the end will not change the functionality of it in any way and I would have another legal worry as the ATF are masters at going full retard with the legal jargon.

Posted: 8/12/2010 7:03:21 PM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:

Quoted:

BTW, for mathematical sake, how long is an 870 receiver? How long is the pistol grip?

I don't think the receiver of an 870+pistol grip = 12" or more. Does it?

Meaning a 14.25" barrel might still be an issue for OAL. Certainly a 12" barrel would be bad.

870 with low angle pistol grip:

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g110/firestormus/IMG_0447.jpg

Ok, I thought he said "standard" pistol grip. I didn't think the duckbill would fit that description.

Posted: 8/12/2010 7:06:15 PM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:

Quoted:

BTW, for mathematical sake, how long is an 870 receiver? How long is the pistol grip?

I don't think the receiver of an 870+pistol grip = 12" or more. Does it?

Meaning a 14.25" barrel might still be an issue for OAL. Certainly a 12" barrel would be bad.

870 with low angle pistol grip:

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g110/firestormus/IMG_0447.jpg

Ok, I thought he said "standard" pistol grip. I didn't think the duckbill would fit that description.

"any pistol grip"

Posted: 8/12/2010 7:09:20 PM EDT

[#34]

Ah hell.

Tagged

Posted: 8/12/2010 7:09:54 PM EDT

[#35]

A 590 Mossberg is 28 1/4" from the tip of the barrel to the end of the visible part of the receiver. A pistol grip will add whatever length to that.

Posted: 8/12/2010 7:09:58 PM EDT

[#36]

Quoted:

Quoted:
BTW, for mathematical sake, how long is an 870 receiver? How long is the pistol grip?

I don't think the receiver of an 870+pistol grip = 12" or more. Does it?

Meaning a 14.25" barrel might still be an issue for OAL. Certainly a 12" barrel would be bad.

870 with low angle pistol grip:
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g110/firestormus/IMG_0447.jpg

Ok, I thought he said "standard" pistol grip. I didn't think the duckbill would fit that description.

"any pistol grip"

In that case.... With that pistol grip, I could have bought it with 3" less barrel. With a normal pistol grip, I'd be lucky to be able to get 1" less. (This on an 870) Not worth worrying about the legal bullshit IMO

Posted: 8/12/2010 7:12:18 PM EDT

[#37]

TAG

Posted: 8/12/2010 7:14:04 PM EDT

[#38]

Tag.

Posted: 8/12/2010 7:14:39 PM EDT

[#39]

Tagscribe.

And brb, hiding the dog and cat.

Posted: 8/12/2010 7:15:36 PM EDT

[#40]

Tag as this is of interest to me.

Posted: 8/12/2010 7:26:57 PM EDT

[#41]

Tag for Update

Posted: 8/12/2010 7:30:07 PM EDT

[#42]

Posted: 8/12/2010 7:43:43 PM EDT

[#43]

27 CFR 479.11:

Any Other Weapon:
Any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person 
from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an 
explosive, a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore 
designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with 
combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 
18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made 
from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any 
such weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Such term shall 
not include a pistol or a revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled 
bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the 
shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition.

Pistol:
A weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a 
projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, 
and having(a)a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently 
aligned with, the bore(s); and (b) a short stock designed to be 
gripped by one hand and at an angle to and extending below the line 
of the bore(s).

Revolver: A projectile weapon, of the pistol type, having a breechloading 
chambered cylinder so arranged that the cocking of the hammer or movement
of the trigger rotates it and brings the next cartridge in line with
the barrel for firing.


Shotgun: 
A weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be 
fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade
to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire  
through a smooth bore either a number of projectiles (ball shot) or a 
single projectile for each pull of the trigger, and shall include any 
such weapon which may be readily restored to fire a fixed shotgun
shell.

Well its not a pistol(does not fire a "bullet" as per their definition as recorded in the CRF), revolver, or shotgun. I could be an AOW depending on the interpretation of " capable of being concealed on the person."

One could assume that is where the 14" barrel or the 26" LOA comes into play although I can find no definition or rule on that.

Posted: 8/12/2010 7:47:00 PM EDT

[#44]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I doubt it.

I'll tell you what
I will donate $100.00 to this site if I am wrong
If you're wrong you do the same.
Bet?

A bet against Kieth_J with regards to knowledge? Aw shit, I'm gettin popcorn for this

I am an 07 FFL/SOT who has spent 2 days on the phone and many faxes between us and the Tech branch of the ATF
This is not speculation or fantasy, it's real and happening

Sounds cool as hell....won't be legal on my side of the delaware ill bet tho.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

Posted: 8/12/2010 7:53:40 PM EDT

[#45]

Quoted:

Quoted:

I doubt it.

I'll tell you what

I will donate $100.00 to this site if I am wrong

If you're wrong you do the same.

Bet?

A bet against Kieth_J with regards to knowledge? Aw shit, I'm gettin popcorn for this

I am an 07 FFL/SOT who has spent 2 days on the phone and many faxes between us and the Tech branch of the ATF

This is not speculation or fantasy, it's real and happening

Sounds cool as hell....won't be legal on my side of the delaware ill bet tho.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

I got out, you can too

Posted: 8/12/2010 7:58:47 PM EDT

[#46]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I doubt it.

I'll tell you what
I will donate $100.00 to this site if I am wrong
If you're wrong you do the same.
Bet?

A bet against Kieth_J with regards to knowledge? Aw shit, I'm gettin popcorn for this

I am an 07 FFL/SOT who has spent 2 days on the phone and many faxes between us and the Tech branch of the ATF
This is not speculation or fantasy, it's real and happening

Sounds cool as hell....won't be legal on my side of the delaware ill bet tho.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

I got out, you can too

Oh I plan to.......but I'm stuck for a couple more years, then I'm gone.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

Posted: 8/12/2010 8:09:13 PM EDT

[#47]

Quoted:

Quoted:

I think I know where you're going with this. According to the ATF, you can have a barrel shorter than 16" on a Browning 1919A4 as long as the OAL is greater than 26" because the 1919 is just a firearm, not a rifle. The ATF classifies a pistol grip only shotgun as just a firearm also (which is why you have to be 21 or over to buy one from a dealer). So, as long as the OAL is greater than 26", it shouldn't matter what the barrel length is.

I would want that in writing, though.

I was going to wait but I have seen a letter saying just that in reference to a shotgun

Shhhhhh, you're chasing my pigeons away LOL

Am I missing something? I don't see any reference to 26" OAL in the definition of a firearm that is not in conjunction with rifle or shotgun.

Firearm.

(a) A shotgun having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length;

(b) a weapon made from a shotgun if such weapon as modified has an

overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18

inches in length;

(c) a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length;

(d) a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an

overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16

inches in length;

(e) any other weapon, as defined in this subpart;

(f) a machinegun;

(g) a muffler or a silencer for any firearm whether or not such firearm is

included within this definition; and

(h) a destructive device.

The term shall not include an antique firearm or any

device (other than a machine gun or destructive device) which, although designed

as a weapon, the Director finds by reason of the date of its manufacture,

value, design, and other characteristics is primarily a collector’s item

and is not likely to be used as a weapon. For purposes of this definition, the

length of the barrel having an integral chamber(s) on a shotgun or rifle shall

be determined by measuring the distance between the muzzle and the face

of the bolt, breech, or breech block when closed and when the shotgun or

rifle is cocked. The overall length of a weapon made from a shotgun or rifle is

the distance between the extreme ends of the weapon measured along a line

parallel to the center line of the bore.

Posted: 8/12/2010 8:16:45 PM EDT

[#48]

TAG

Posted: 8/12/2010 8:21:45 PM EDT

[#49]

My advice to the OP, regarding the ATFE

Posted: 8/12/2010 8:22:47 PM EDT

[#50]

Quoted:
this site seems to disagree with you. However, I am interested in your interpretation. I would hide your dogs, just in case.

From the above ATF link

Often mistakenly called a “sawed off shotgun.” In this instance overall length is determining factor. However, if the overall length is 26 inches or more and barrel less than 18 inches, this weapon would still be classified as a firearm under the Act.

just quoting the ATF here

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - 14 1/2 inch Shotgun not an AOW ? LETTER ARRIVED 12/27 Pg21 (Page 2 of 22)

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