Posted: 11/23/2014 1:46:30 AM EDT
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I made it through my first year (really 1/2 year) of 3 gun and it was great fun. Lead me to getting my first shotgun and all kinds of other crap! My primary 3gun rifle is a Stag 3g with SWFA 1-6x scope and angled iron sights. One of the monthly competitions we do usually has a stage which steps you out from close range and then out to 50yrds, 100yrds, 200yrds, 300yrds, 500 yards. There may be only about 3 steel targets out to the 500 yards range. With the 1-6x scope, I can generally go out to 300 yards if I don't rush. But the 500 yards, forget about it. And I find this is true of most of the guys I'm shooting with who are probably using anything from red dots, red dots+mag, 1-4x, 1-6x. Probably few 1-6x as the price range starts getting up there for those. Its sometimes painful to watch someone send endless ammo down range at those long targets with not one hit.
Keep in mind, my group are mainly IDPA, USPA, steel pistol shooters who enjoy the monthly 3 gun matches. We may be in an extra carbine or rimfire match a month, but its mostly pistol. Also, most of the ranges close by only go out to about 100 yards, so practicing 300-500 yard shots is not easy unless you want to make an hour drive to a remote range. And so many of these private ranges now require membership. For me, I've been using my .22lr AR conversion to practice more close in stuff at the range (shooting while moving, transitions) so I can do better at the 3gun matches. I guess I have 2 ways of tackling the 300-500 yards range other then trekking out to a 500 yard range. I can either take a couple of engagement shots at those long ones and just stop the clock or I can consider a more powerful scope. Anybody else out there setup their 3 gun rifle with a 2.5-10x or 3-9x scope to deal with those pesky 500 yards shots and what do you use? I'm a big fan of the Viper PST 2.5-10x32 FFP scope. I could setup my stag 3g 18"bbl with one of these for those 3 gun matches with longer shots and then setup my Colt 16"bbl with the 1-6x while my .22lr conversion has the Burris mtac 1-4x. That Viper PST + mount does require some serious coin. Is there a Burris Mtac like scope which gets you out to that range at a more economical price (I consider the mtac 1-4x one of the best bang for the buck scopes out there)? I would imagine you could do without illumination at that range. |
| You need to learn how to use your scope. I shoot out to 500 yds most matches. Know the size of your targets, ours are 20" gongs. Then you need to figure out the bullet drop at that distance and figure out where to place the reticle to make the hit. I have a 1-6 Razor, it just took some time and practice. Helps if you have a spotter on a spotting scope as large gongs don't move from a 223 round. |
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More maginification will not help , unless you physically can not see the targets. What size are the targetsat 500 ? We use 6moa minimun at 5-600yds
I used to shoot an Eotech out to 500, out to 350 was fairly easy 500 was a strech, when my vision started declining, added a 3x magnifier, that got me by for about 4 years. Now I use a 1x6. figure out your bullet drop , learn to use the reticle marks in your scope. If you know somebody who is good at those distances, ask for help, they will have you on target fairly quickly. AND be happy to teach you and your buddies 
Good Luck |
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Originally Posted By Tuflehundon:
We shoot to 500 with iron sights in the Marines. I'd have to agree with others that a 1-6 should be good, you just need to train with it. What kind of reticle does your optic have? Is it a BDC? (bullet drop compersating) I agree I don't know my scope as well as I should or practice at long ranges. I think I need to make a better effort of that the next few months. I've spent more time working on pistol then anything but will try to give more time on rifle/shotgun in 2015. Below is my scope. Any advice you can give me to better use it out to 500 yards would be appreciated. An afternoon with a Marine and I'd probably be hitting 500 all day! PS…I do have a simple iPhone app for calculating drop but could tie it all in together better. Thanks all. http://swfa.com/SWFA-SS-HD-1-6x24-Tactical-30mm-Riflescope-P53845.aspx |
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I agree with other posts here - magnification does not make you more accurate unless the targets are hard to see. How big are the targets, and are they clearly painted with contrasting backers? If they are hard to see, you should talk to your Match Director and ask him to do a better job of making the targets visible.
As for practice, put out PAPER targets from 200 yards to 500 yards and shoot on each of them to determine your actual bullet drop (do not rely on the scope's BDC reticle without verifying). If you cannot keep all your shots close to the center, work on building your shooting position (presumably prone at that distance), breathing and trigger control. I assume you are shooting Tac Scope division? If so, try monopodding off the magazine as this greatly increases your stability. Wind can be another problem to be mindful of, but is typically less of an issue in our game. |
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Originally Posted By 1EyedFatMan:
I made it through my first year (really 1/2 year) of 3 gun and it was great fun. Lead me to getting my first shotgun and all kinds of other crap! My primary 3gun rifle is a Stag 3g with SWFA 1-6x scope and angled iron sights. One of the monthly competitions we do usually has a stage which steps you out from close range and then out to 50yrds, 100yrds, 200yrds, 300yrds, 500 yards. There may be only about 3 steel targets out to the 500 yards range. With the 1-6x scope, I can generally go out to 300 yards if I don't rush. But the 500 yards, forget about it. And I find this is true of most of the guys I'm shooting with who are probably using anything from red dots, red dots+mag, 1-4x, 1-6x. Probably few 1-6x as the price range starts getting up there for those. Its sometimes painful to watch someone send endless ammo down range at those long targets with not one hit. Keep in mind, my group are mainly IDPA, USPA, steel pistol shooters who enjoy the monthly 3 gun matches. We may be in an extra carbine or rimfire match a month, but its mostly pistol. Also, most of the ranges close by only go out to about 100 yards, so practicing 300-500 yard shots is not easy unless you want to make an hour drive to a remote range. And so many of these private ranges now require membership. For me, I've been using my .22lr AR conversion to practice more close in stuff at the range (shooting while moving, transitions) so I can do better at the 3gun matches. I guess I have 2 ways of tackling the 300-500 yards range other then trekking out to a 500 yard range. I can either take a couple of engagement shots at those long ones and just stop the clock or I can consider a more powerful scope. Anybody else out there setup their 3 gun rifle with a 2.5-10x or 3-9x scope to deal with those pesky 500 yards shots and what do you use? I'm a big fan of the Viper PST 2.5-10x32 FFP scope. I could setup my stag 3g 18"bbl with one of these for those 3 gun matches with longer shots and then setup my Colt 16"bbl with the 1-6x while my .22lr conversion has the Burris mtac 1-4x. That Viper PST + mount does require some serious coin. Is there a Burris Mtac like scope which gets you out to that range at a more economical price (I consider the mtac 1-4x one of the best bang for the buck scopes out there)? I would imagine you could do without illumination at that range. The majority of competitors including myself and many pros suffer the same issues you have with the Targets past 300 yards. Like most people the gun club im a member of doesn't have a convenient place to shoot past 300. It is a lot of work to get good at the long stuff without shooting it a lot. Thankfully 3GN has realized this and doesn't put anything out past 350 at their regionals. I for one have quit attending the outlaw matches like Rocky Mointain that shoot a lot of the long stuff. The really long range stages always dominate the match in terms of winning/losing. There is always someone winning the stage by a bunch because of their ability to practice the long stuff a bunch. More magnification will help see those long range targets but hitting them isn't any easier without practice. |
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Originally Posted By JesseTischauser:
The majority of competitors including myself and many pros suffer the same issues you have with the Targets past 300 yards. Like most people the gun club im a member of doesn't have a convenient place to shoot past 300. It is a lot of work to get good at the long stuff without shooting it a lot. Thankfully 3GN has realized this and doesn't put anything out past 350 at their regionals. I for one have quit attending the outlaw matches like Rocky Mointain that shoot a lot of the long stuff. The really long range stages always dominate the match in terms of winning/losing. There is always someone winning the stage by a bunch because of their ability to practice the long stuff a bunch. More magnification will help see those long range targets but hitting them isn't any easier without practice. Originally Posted By JesseTischauser:
Originally Posted By 1EyedFatMan:
I made it through my first year (really 1/2 year) of 3 gun and it was great fun. Lead me to getting my first shotgun and all kinds of other crap! My primary 3gun rifle is a Stag 3g with SWFA 1-6x scope and angled iron sights. One of the monthly competitions we do usually has a stage which steps you out from close range and then out to 50yrds, 100yrds, 200yrds, 300yrds, 500 yards. There may be only about 3 steel targets out to the 500 yards range. With the 1-6x scope, I can generally go out to 300 yards if I don't rush. But the 500 yards, forget about it. And I find this is true of most of the guys I'm shooting with who are probably using anything from red dots, red dots+mag, 1-4x, 1-6x. Probably few 1-6x as the price range starts getting up there for those. Its sometimes painful to watch someone send endless ammo down range at those long targets with not one hit. Keep in mind, my group are mainly IDPA, USPA, steel pistol shooters who enjoy the monthly 3 gun matches. We may be in an extra carbine or rimfire match a month, but its mostly pistol. Also, most of the ranges close by only go out to about 100 yards, so practicing 300-500 yard shots is not easy unless you want to make an hour drive to a remote range. And so many of these private ranges now require membership. For me, I've been using my .22lr AR conversion to practice more close in stuff at the range (shooting while moving, transitions) so I can do better at the 3gun matches. I guess I have 2 ways of tackling the 300-500 yards range other then trekking out to a 500 yard range. I can either take a couple of engagement shots at those long ones and just stop the clock or I can consider a more powerful scope. Anybody else out there setup their 3 gun rifle with a 2.5-10x or 3-9x scope to deal with those pesky 500 yards shots and what do you use? I'm a big fan of the Viper PST 2.5-10x32 FFP scope. I could setup my stag 3g 18"bbl with one of these for those 3 gun matches with longer shots and then setup my Colt 16"bbl with the 1-6x while my .22lr conversion has the Burris mtac 1-4x. That Viper PST + mount does require some serious coin. Is there a Burris Mtac like scope which gets you out to that range at a more economical price (I consider the mtac 1-4x one of the best bang for the buck scopes out there)? I would imagine you could do without illumination at that range. The majority of competitors including myself and many pros suffer the same issues you have with the Targets past 300 yards. Like most people the gun club im a member of doesn't have a convenient place to shoot past 300. It is a lot of work to get good at the long stuff without shooting it a lot. Thankfully 3GN has realized this and doesn't put anything out past 350 at their regionals. I for one have quit attending the outlaw matches like Rocky Mointain that shoot a lot of the long stuff. The really long range stages always dominate the match in terms of winning/losing. There is always someone winning the stage by a bunch because of their ability to practice the long stuff a bunch. More magnification will help see those long range targets but hitting them isn't any easier without practice. Agree with Jesse on this 100%. Only way to know were your gun hits at 500 is to shoot it at 500. Even if you have a BDC reticle like mine, you still have to shoot it at range to verify. Mine was a little off do to the load I use. I am lucky enough to have a 1000 yard range about an hour away from me. Ballistics calculators can help you get close, but you will need to shot at distance. iStrelok is a ballistics calculator app for iPhone and Android phones that has settings for your optic. Here is a screenshot from that app with your reticle. The zero set in the app is for a 100 yard zero, if your zero is different let me know and I can change the settings in the app to get you the correct info. Should get you on paper. 
What might help to is to make yourself a DOPE sheet. (Data On Previous Engagements) Draw out your reticle, and then take note of were your holds are at each line on the reticle like the pic. |
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Originally Posted By Tuflehundon:
Agree with Jesse on this 100%. Only way to know were your gun hits at 500 is to shoot it at 500. Even if you have a BDC reticle like mine, you still have to shoot it at range to verify. Mine was a little off do to the load I use. I am lucky enough to have a 1000 yard range about an hour away from me. Ballistics calculators can help you get close, but you will need to shot at distance. iStrelok is a ballistics calculator app for iPhone and Android phones that has settings for your optic. Here is a screenshot from that app with your reticle. The zero set in the app is for a 100 yard zero, if your zero is different let me know and I can change the settings in the app to get you the correct info. Should get you on paper. <a href="http://s789.photobucket.com/user/tuflehundon/media/IMG_0850_zps64c26222.png.html" target="_blank">http://i789.photobucket.com/albums/yy179/tuflehundon/IMG_0850_zps64c26222.png</a> What might help to is to make yourself a DOPE sheet. (Data On Previous Engagements) Draw out your reticle, and then take note of were your holds are at each line on the reticle like the pic. Originally Posted By Tuflehundon:
Originally Posted By JesseTischauser:
Originally Posted By 1EyedFatMan:
I made it through my first year (really 1/2 year) of 3 gun and it was great fun. Lead me to getting my first shotgun and all kinds of other crap! My primary 3gun rifle is a Stag 3g with SWFA 1-6x scope and angled iron sights. One of the monthly competitions we do usually has a stage which steps you out from close range and then out to 50yrds, 100yrds, 200yrds, 300yrds, 500 yards. There may be only about 3 steel targets out to the 500 yards range. With the 1-6x scope, I can generally go out to 300 yards if I don't rush. But the 500 yards, forget about it. And I find this is true of most of the guys I'm shooting with who are probably using anything from red dots, red dots+mag, 1-4x, 1-6x. Probably few 1-6x as the price range starts getting up there for those. Its sometimes painful to watch someone send endless ammo down range at those long targets with not one hit. Keep in mind, my group are mainly IDPA, USPA, steel pistol shooters who enjoy the monthly 3 gun matches. We may be in an extra carbine or rimfire match a month, but its mostly pistol. Also, most of the ranges close by only go out to about 100 yards, so practicing 300-500 yard shots is not easy unless you want to make an hour drive to a remote range. And so many of these private ranges now require membership. For me, I've been using my .22lr AR conversion to practice more close in stuff at the range (shooting while moving, transitions) so I can do better at the 3gun matches. I guess I have 2 ways of tackling the 300-500 yards range other then trekking out to a 500 yard range. I can either take a couple of engagement shots at those long ones and just stop the clock or I can consider a more powerful scope. Anybody else out there setup their 3 gun rifle with a 2.5-10x or 3-9x scope to deal with those pesky 500 yards shots and what do you use? I'm a big fan of the Viper PST 2.5-10x32 FFP scope. I could setup my stag 3g 18"bbl with one of these for those 3 gun matches with longer shots and then setup my Colt 16"bbl with the 1-6x while my .22lr conversion has the Burris mtac 1-4x. That Viper PST + mount does require some serious coin. Is there a Burris Mtac like scope which gets you out to that range at a more economical price (I consider the mtac 1-4x one of the best bang for the buck scopes out there)? I would imagine you could do without illumination at that range. The majority of competitors including myself and many pros suffer the same issues you have with the Targets past 300 yards. Like most people the gun club im a member of doesn't have a convenient place to shoot past 300. It is a lot of work to get good at the long stuff without shooting it a lot. Thankfully 3GN has realized this and doesn't put anything out past 350 at their regionals. I for one have quit attending the outlaw matches like Rocky Mointain that shoot a lot of the long stuff. The really long range stages always dominate the match in terms of winning/losing. There is always someone winning the stage by a bunch because of their ability to practice the long stuff a bunch. More magnification will help see those long range targets but hitting them isn't any easier without practice. Agree with Jesse on this 100%. Only way to know were your gun hits at 500 is to shoot it at 500. Even if you have a BDC reticle like mine, you still have to shoot it at range to verify. Mine was a little off do to the load I use. I am lucky enough to have a 1000 yard range about an hour away from me. Ballistics calculators can help you get close, but you will need to shot at distance. iStrelok is a ballistics calculator app for iPhone and Android phones that has settings for your optic. Here is a screenshot from that app with your reticle. The zero set in the app is for a 100 yard zero, if your zero is different let me know and I can change the settings in the app to get you the correct info. Should get you on paper. <a href="http://s789.photobucket.com/user/tuflehundon/media/IMG_0850_zps64c26222.png.html" target="_blank">http://i789.photobucket.com/albums/yy179/tuflehundon/IMG_0850_zps64c26222.png</a> What might help to is to make yourself a DOPE sheet. (Data On Previous Engagements) Draw out your reticle, and then take note of were your holds are at each line on the reticle like the pic. While you guys maybe correct if the targets are small at that distance, a larger target ( we use 3moa minimum to 150, 4moa out to 350 - 6moa out to 600) if your on at 300 your on at 600. You need to know some basics of your ammo and your reticle Our last local match we had a target at 500, OVER 80% hit the target, probably 90% had never shot past 350. Last weekend we had a couple of ladies that took our CCW class afterward they wanted to shoot some rifles, they wanted to try the 500yd target, EVERYONE hit the target, several took colse to 5-8 shots to get on tatget after that they hit well over 60% of their shots. To say they were THRILLED would be an understatement 
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I ran the Viper PST 2.5-10x32 for all my matches last year with good results...it takes some getting used to inside 100yds, but with practice its fine.
Most of the matches I shot had longer range targets (Ironman, Rocky Mountain, etc) so take that into consideration as well. Also, +on the 77gr MKs for long range work. JSflyer |
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Its not the optics: it's your position. This is my first year to take 3G seriously. I've been a hi-power shooter for 26 years and shoot at 600 yards with iron sights no problem (yes we use a sling and that helps). What will help is getting a good position. Natural Point of Aim is critical for long range shots. At local matches I see shooters contort themselves into all kinds of strange positions and wonder why they can't hit the target. They are fighting against themselves.
The one advice I do have for optics is not the power, it's the size of the reticle. If the reticle is so big it obscures them target you can't hit it. I went to a match last year where they provided all the gear. On two of the stages the illuminated retical was so big you couldn't see the target (1/2 IPSC). A couple of times it took 2 shots to hit the target. I too am an older shooter, old school accuracy freak, and speed is not my thing ;but man is this fun! |
| I shoot a fixed power 4x32 ACOG, and it is not a popular scope for serious 3 gunners... what I really like about the scope is that the stadia lines subtend 19" at the indicated distances, so the upwind half of the line is 10" (a little fudge factor for the width of the vertical ) and allows for a definite spatial hold off, rather than estimating a dot in space... at Ft Benning in 2010 using 55 grain S&B, I had to hold a stadia line and a half (15") for wind on the MGM 10" flash target at 415m... 69grain bullets would have cut the hold off in half |