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Posted: 5/21/2021 5:04:32 PM EDT
I am in the market for an m16 (and m60!) and find it a little difficult to find any data on pricing as there just aren't many for sale right now. My primary question is what models are worth more than others. From my research the things that effect price the most are:
Right? So what kind of price discrepancy can be expected between all those? (example: Is a2 typically worth x% more than a1) Whats the typical premium on a colt? I saw 10+ in the 24k range just 6-12 months ago on a MG forum and now I've only seen 1 officially for sale on the forums and it's in the 30k range. So did they go up 20% or did I just misinterpret that because of model differences (or outliers). I know gun/ammo prices have gone up during the pandemic, but it doesn't seem to have effected NFA prices as the factors leading to high prices (panic buying & sourcing materials) don't effect NFA (someone buying 30k guns with 6 month turnaround isn't panic buying and nothing new is being built). The 24k m16's were being sold in the middle of the pandemic so it's not like that was pre-pandemic prices anyways. I would also appreciate any general advice on what to look for in an m16. Anything to watch out for when considering the older models (1970s). I am familiar with firearms and have many AR's. But this will be my first MG. I am currently looking at 2 options locally, one marked m16 and the other marked m16a1. They are both m16a1's based off how they look, and in the 9 million serial range, but marked differently. Is the m16 marked one worse/better? Thanks! |
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Originally Posted By TimelinexAZ: I am in the market for an m16 (and m60!) and find it a little difficult to find any data on pricing as there just aren't many for sale right now. My primary question is what models are worth more than others. From my research the things that effect price the most are:
Right? So what kind of price discrepancy can be expected between all those? (example: Is a2 typically worth x% more than a1) Whats the typical premium on a colt? I saw 10+ in the 24k range just 6-12 months ago on a MG forum and now I've only seen 1 officially for sale on the forums and it's in the 30k range. So did they go up 20% or did I just misinterpret that because of model differences (or outliers). I know gun/ammo prices have gone up during the pandemic, but it doesn't seem to have effected NFA prices as the factors leading to high prices (panic buying & sourcing materials) don't effect NFA (someone buying 30k guns with 6 month turnaround isn't panic buying and nothing new is being built). The 24k m16's were being sold in the middle of the pandemic so it's not like that was pre-pandemic prices anyways. I would also appreciate any general advice on what to look for in an m16. Anything to watch out for when considering the older models (1970s). I am familiar with firearms and have many AR's. But this will be my first MG. I am currently looking at 2 options locally, one marked m16 and the other marked m16a1. They are both m16a1's based off how they look, and in the 9 million serial range, but marked differently. Is the m16 marked one worse/better? Thanks! Short answer is the colt with roll mark M16 and M16A1 are identical. |
"I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery". - Thomas Jefferson
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The market is more complex and dynamic than you propose, i.e. you can't find a Colt M-16 for 20k and then extrapolate to what an A2 or conversion would be worth. Generally speaking for registered receivers values are (low to high) cast receiver non-Colt, forged receiver non-Colt, Colt non-M16 marked (614s or others marked AR-15), M16, M16A1, M16A2. But for each of these levels you have overlap for example a really nice M16 marked gun is worth more than an electopenciled M16A1. And the values don't relate to "true" value in the sense that a Colt 614, M16, and M16A1 are for all practical purposes EXACTLY the same gun with just cosmetic marking differences. Unfired guns fall into completely different value categories and unless you are a collector you can ignore these guns as they will always (and justifiably) command a premium. When I sold my DIAS and wanted a RR I received this advice from the famous Douglas L. Oefinger, "buy all machine-guns based on condition." So the first thing to do is find the cleanest, nicest quality gun that is within your price range. For me that meant no A2 (too expensive), and I ended up with a couple other Colt guns in near-new condition. And condition means mechanical condition, so you could buy an "ugly" gun (typically former LE guns with electro pencil marks and lots of rack wear) that still has tight specs and you are fine. My sense is the market is a big tight at the moment as folks try and figure out if there is going to be inflation in the broader economy and what that might mean for their gun's value. But plenty of other folks continue to need funds to send kids to college, or old timers check out of the game, or hobbyists get bored and move on so some guns changing hands. My advice is figure out what YOU want. Figure out what YOU want to pay, and keep an eye on the market. If you want to speed things up you can put out WTB messages, but be prepared to deal with an avalanche of scammers...the value of WTB is you might find someone local or someone who you can 100 percent verify and then work with. I have payed premiums for my guns by buying them from very proven and reputable sellers and I think that has been money well spent for me. |
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OP, I’m sure you already know, factory Colt M16s are going to command a premium over conversions. Currently it appears that there isn’t much inventory being listed, especially when it comes to factory Colt M16s. Sturmgewehr used to have factory Colt M16 A1’s being listed with relative frequency. When an A1 does pop up anywhere, it’s usually in $30k neighborhood. Just for reference, I entered the M16 market just last year, and bought 2 Colt M16s at different points in the year (July, November) and didn’t pay close to $30k for either one. And both were in great condition. Regarding, your question about “M16 A1” vs “M16”, mine have those differing roll marks and were in the same price range. As for A2’s I never considered them because they were way outside of what I can afford. Regarding the lack of inventory at the moment and what appears to be an upward price trend, my guess, and this is strictly a guess. All gun sales are through the roof. People watched massive civil unrest and violence last year and that coupled with an “anti gun” administration sitting in power would have more people buying or looking to buy than selling, a “get them while you can mentality” market. My SOT is an older man who’s been in the business a very long time and he has told me Bill Clinton, Barack Obama, and now Joe Biden have sold more guns than any “pro 2A” POTUS ever could. That being said, there’s always a hobbyist who suddenly needs the money or an old timer checking out of the game and liquidating their inventory. I’d figure out what your price range is and watch the boards and don’t be in a hurry. You may get a better “deal” from an individual versus a dealer but that’s not always the case. Personally I have never gone through a dealer. 2 MGs I recently purchased basically fell into my lap. I was shopping HK sears and found one listed and it happened to be an older retired business executive and we started negotiating. Once we reached a deal, he mentioned he would be selling another MG, a Colt M16. I told him I previously purchased one but just to be polite, asked how flexible he was on price and you know the rest of the story. That gun eventually went to my dealer and I when I went to do the Form 4 for it, he mentioned he just got a excellent condition M11/9 to sell in from an old customer who’s health is failing. Knowing nothing about the platform I reached out to some experienced MG members here for advice (Thanks JoshNC and JBNTEX) and the rest is history. The old adage about hanging out around a barber shop and eventually getting a haircut, appears to apply to MGs. Not only will you eventually get one but get more than you initially intended to. |
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Thanks for the insight guys. It does seem like the bottleneck for these guys is currently just the lack of supply. I have found 2 locally but both are asking for more than I am willing to pay. Time will tell if that is the right choice or not! Another roadblock I ran across is that I did not realize how bad the system is for private party transfers. Buying from a private party means either I have to give cash up front and trust the person to give me the rifle, or they have to wait and get their cash a year later! That is a pretty bad situation. |
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Originally Posted By TimelinexAZ: Thanks for the insight guys. It does seem like the bottleneck for these guys is currently just the lack of supply. I have found 2 locally but both are asking for more than I am willing to pay. Time will tell if that is the right choice or not! Another roadblock I ran across is that I did not realize how bad the system is for private party transfers. Buying from a private party means either I have to give cash up front and trust the person to give me the rifle, or they have to wait and get their cash a year later! That is a pretty bad situation. Just curious what are the local sales asking? You can message me if you want. Thanks |
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Originally Posted By TimelinexAZ: Thanks for the insight guys. It does seem like the bottleneck for these guys is currently just the lack of supply. I have found 2 locally but both are asking for more than I am willing to pay. Time will tell if that is the right choice or not! Another roadblock I ran across is that I did not realize how bad the system is for private party transfers. Buying from a private party means either I have to give cash up front and trust the person to give me the rifle, or they have to wait and get their cash a year later! That is a pretty bad situation. I could never get past the idea of writing a stranger a $10k+ check and waiting a year or more to find out if the transfer was approved, if they guy was going to screw me, still alive, etc... for some buyer the saving is worth the risk, but I didnt mind paying an extra 10-20% for the peace of mind to get it from a dealer with a brick and mortar and a history. Some dealers like frank even has 50/50 deals. Seems to be common on the entry level machine guns, dropping $8k at once is a lot for most folks but $4k now and another $4k in a year spreads out the pain of a high dollar purchase. |
"I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery". - Thomas Jefferson
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Originally Posted By TimelinexAZ: Thanks for the insight guys. It does seem like the bottleneck for these guys is currently just the lack of supply. I have found 2 locally but both are asking for more than I am willing to pay. Time will tell if that is the right choice or not! Another roadblock I ran across is that I did not realize how bad the system is for private party transfers. Buying from a private party means either I have to give cash up front and trust the person to give me the rifle, or they have to wait and get their cash a year later! That is a pretty bad situation. ETA: He had already gotten it moved to his new business, so it was on a Form 3. Took about a month to get F3'd to my dealer and that's when I sent the second check. |
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Originally Posted By jaqufrost: I bought mine from a board member. Paid him half up front and half when it got to my dealer. ETA: He had already gotten it moved to his new business, so it was on a Form 3. Took about a month to get F3'd to my dealer and that's when I sent the second check. I know privat e party purchase you don't have to pay sales tax on. Do you know if you have to pay sales tax on the purchase when a Dealer acts as an in between like this? Officially it seems like it's being transferring to the dealer and then the dealer is selling it to you, implying there should be sales tax. |
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Originally Posted By TimelinexAZ: I know privat e party purchase you don't have to pay sales tax on. Do you know if you have to pay sales tax on the purchase when a Dealer acts as an in between like this? Officially it seems like it's being transferring to the dealer and then the dealer is selling it to you, implying there should be sales tax. So that probably comes back to how much money your dealer is getting. If he's getting a $25,000 check, it's far different than giving him $40 or $50 for a transfer. |
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Originally Posted By jaqufrost: If a dealer buys it and resells it, taxes are due. If you pay the dealer for a transfer, he only gets paid for the transfer. So that probably comes back to how much money your dealer is getting. If he's getting a $25,000 check, it's far different than giving him $40 or $50 for a transfer. Maybe I am misunderstanding but I think to transfer between private parties I could either literally just have the private party form 4 it over to me or I could have him transfer it to the dealer which then transfers it to me. With the first option I know there isn't a sales tax. The 2nd option is 2 tax stamps and adding ~100 days to the transfer, but it seems safer since the dealer could hold onto the item from day 1 and then I could safely pay the private party right away(as long as I believe the dealer is good for it?). But if I do it the 2nd way, will I have to pay sales tax? It's much more clear that during a regular gun transfer a dealer is literally just facilitating the transfer. Here, at a specific time the dealer has the item in their name. Which I believe is what is confusing me and mkaing it murky. I think I will make a new thread about this in the general NFA forum, to not get this thread too off topic |
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Originally Posted By TimelinexAZ: Maybe I am misunderstanding but I think to transfer between private parties I could either literally just have the private party form 4 it over to me or I could have him transfer it to the dealer which then transfers it to me. With the first option I know there isn't a sales tax. The 2nd option is 2 tax stamps and adding ~100 days to the transfer, but it seems safer since the dealer could hold onto the item from day 1 and then I could safely pay the private party right away(as long as I believe the dealer is good for it?). But if I do it the 2nd way, will I have to pay sales tax? It's much more clear that during a regular gun transfer a dealer is literally just facilitating the transfer. Here, at a specific time the dealer has the item in their name. Which I believe is what is confusing me and mkaing it murky. I think I will make a new thread about this in the general NFA forum, to not get this thread too off topic Originally Posted By TimelinexAZ: Originally Posted By jaqufrost: If a dealer buys it and resells it, taxes are due. If you pay the dealer for a transfer, he only gets paid for the transfer. So that probably comes back to how much money your dealer is getting. If he's getting a $25,000 check, it's far different than giving him $40 or $50 for a transfer. Maybe I am misunderstanding but I think to transfer between private parties I could either literally just have the private party form 4 it over to me or I could have him transfer it to the dealer which then transfers it to me. With the first option I know there isn't a sales tax. The 2nd option is 2 tax stamps and adding ~100 days to the transfer, but it seems safer since the dealer could hold onto the item from day 1 and then I could safely pay the private party right away(as long as I believe the dealer is good for it?). But if I do it the 2nd way, will I have to pay sales tax? It's much more clear that during a regular gun transfer a dealer is literally just facilitating the transfer. Here, at a specific time the dealer has the item in their name. Which I believe is what is confusing me and mkaing it murky. I think I will make a new thread about this in the general NFA forum, to not get this thread too off topic Maybe I’m not understanding what you mean but a private party seller can directly Form 4 to you only if you happen to both live in the same state, otherwise it must be transferred to dealer when changing possession across state lines. I bought my 1st M16 this way, same state seller, and a direct transfer to me once the approved Form 4 arrived. It’s been my experience that most if not all seller’s will want full payment before the gun leaves their possession. They may do a 50/50 when its a 2 stamp transfer involving a dealer while waiting for the 1st stamp to come back. Most seller’s can provide references as well, if thats the part that has you nervous. i.e. paying someone 25-30k and waiting for a stamp. |
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Originally Posted By jaqufrost: If a dealer buys it and resells it, taxes are due. If you pay the dealer for a transfer, he only gets paid for the transfer. So that probably comes back to how much money your dealer is getting. If he's getting a $25,000 check, it's far different than giving him $40 or $50 for a transfer. Originally Posted By jaqufrost: Originally Posted By TimelinexAZ: I know privat e party purchase you don't have to pay sales tax on. Do you know if you have to pay sales tax on the purchase when a Dealer acts as an in between like this? Officially it seems like it's being transferring to the dealer and then the dealer is selling it to you, implying there should be sales tax. So that probably comes back to how much money your dealer is getting. If he's getting a $25,000 check, it's far different than giving him $40 or $50 for a transfer. This is wholly dependent on state tax law. Some states won’t collect, but many states have passed tax law that specifies this as being a taxable transaction. With the increased use of eBay and Amazon for what historically would have been a local purchases, most states are feeling the loss in sales tax revenue and have revised tax law to collect sales tax on out of state purchases, just like this. |
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