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Why the U.S. military won’t use bullpup rifles (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 8/8/2025 9:47:57 PM EDT
 Why the US military won't adopt bullpup rifles |
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Originally Posted By PewPewPew1212: What seriously military force has ever fielded a bull pup? The French. I really can't include England as more then a minor power anymore sadly. |
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Originally Posted By fxntime: The French. I really can't include England as more then a minor power anymore sadly. Originally Posted By fxntime: Originally Posted By PewPewPew1212: What seriously military force has ever fielded a bull pup? The French. I really can't include England as more then a minor power anymore sadly. Attached File |
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Simply put, the M-16 was adopted in the early 1960's, and there was not a single modern bullpup rifle (or really any bullpup rifle, save for the adopted then immediately unadopted British EM series) available at that time, and Uncle Same simply hasn't realistically found a rifle that performs significantly better than the M-16 in the last 60+ years. AUG did not exist until 1977 as a production rifle FAMAS did not exist until 1967 in its earliest forms and was not adopted until 1978 L85 did not exist until 1985, and for obvioius reasons would never have been a contender FN2000, VHS-2, etc, etc are all year 2000 or later. At the end of the day they are all 5.56 projectile launchers, and the benefits in shorter length of a bullpup are offset by the not so ideal chamber location both for potential catastrophic failure issues and offhand shooting for the rare times the average GI does it, the longer length of pull is not idea with the use of body armor, and no reason to spend all that money just to switch over to a different platform with the associated cost, logistics, and training requirements for firing the same cartridge. Throw in that every servicemember who is in the decision making process has used an M4 or M16 during their entire service, and institutional inertia is going to lean towards a conventional layout rifle. There, I saved you the time of watching that video.  Sven Manticore Arms |
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I've seen Bullpup in action... and they do not maniulate well at high speed close to the ground. Watched tavors choke on barrier shots, watched them INGEST empty cartridges bounced off the ground, and BACK into chamber, yep saw it live calling hits from behind shooter. To put it in short form, I have seen TAVOR run hard and fast next to AR15.... and the Tavor came up short on speed and reliability. |
Triggers.  A buddy bought an AUG the same time my boys were big into Nerf guns. The Nerf guns had better triggers. |
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I think the advantages of a bullpup are more suited for the individual civilian users, assuming it fits them, then to masses of untrained recruits or conscripts who can range in size from 4'10" to 6'10" and have very different jobs like parachute infantry, tanker, medic, radar operator, etc. A bullpup is probably better for support troops due to the size. Personally, the only bullpup that I own and use is the AUG and it has advantages over most of my AR's FOR ME. Mostly because it has the same firepower and accuracy of a full-size 16" AR but at the size of a 10.5" |
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Originally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER: I think the advantages of a bullpup are more suited for the individual civilian users, assuming it fits them, then to masses of untrained recruits or conscripts who can range in size from 4'10" to 6'10" and have very different jobs like parachute infantry, tanker, medic, radar operator, etc. A bullpup is probably better for support troops due to the size. Personally, the only bullpup that I own and use is the AUG and it has advantages over most of my AR's FOR ME. Mostly because it has the same firepower and accuracy of a full-size 16" AR but at the size of a 10.5" The biggest problem with most bullpups is they are far too heavy. They shine as a tidy full performance REMF weapon. Underemined by weighing more than a main battle rifle. Only ones that try to get that right are the RDB and the P90. |
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To date there is no real contender to best the contemporary AR15 in military service. Notice how across the globe militaries are replacing their aging fleets of rifles with rifles of the AR15 family. The Swedes recently put the Colt M4a1 into service as an interim while the kinks are worked out of their Sako Ak24 rifles, which are also AR15 variants. Every respectable SOF unit across the globe has been using an AR15 iteration as its primary carbine for going on 20+ years. Bullpups are neat. I like my AUGs, PS90, and FS2000. But they are curios. Nothing beats a contemporary top tier AR15. |
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Originally Posted By Manticore_Arms: Simply put, the M-16 was adopted in the early 1960's, and there was not a single modern bullpup rifle (or really any bullpup rifle, save for the adopted then immediately unadopted British EM series) available at that time, and Uncle Same simply hasn't realistically found a rifle that performs significantly better than the M-16 in the last 60+ years. AUG did not exist until 1977 as a production rifle FAMAS did not exist until 1967 in its earliest forms and was not adopted until 1978 L85 did not exist until 1985, and for obvioius reasons would never have been a contender FN2000, VHS-2, etc, etc are all year 2000 or later. At the end of the day they are all 5.56 projectile launchers, and the benefits in shorter length of a bullpup are offset by the not so ideal chamber location both for potential catastrophic failure issues and offhand shooting for the rare times the average GI does it, the longer length of pull is not idea with the use of body armor, and no reason to spend all that money just to switch over to a different platform with the associated cost, logistics, and training requirements for firing the same cartridge. Throw in that every servicemember who is in the decision making process has used an M4 or M16 during their entire service, and institutional inertia is going to lean towards a conventional layout rifle. There, I saved you the time of watching that video. Sven Manticore Arms Thank you, sir. |
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Originally Posted By PewPewPew1212: Originally Posted By fxntime: Originally Posted By PewPewPew1212: What seriously military force has ever fielded a bull pup? The French. I really can't include England as more then a minor power anymore sadly. /media/mediaFiles/sharedAlbum/Rightt-289.jpg The French Foreign Legion is a renowned and capable fighting force. They have seen as much or more combat in Africa than any major power's armies.  I fact, I would deem the French, "peak bullpup users". The "Bugle" (what the troops call the FAMAS) is effective, reliable, and deadly. |
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Originally Posted By Positronic: I've seen Bullpup in action... and they do not maniulate well at high speed close to the ground. Watched tavors choke on barrier shots, watched them INGEST empty cartridges bounced off the ground, and BACK into chamber, yep saw it live calling hits from behind shooter. To put it in short form, I have seen TAVOR run hard and fast next to AR15.... and the Tavor came up short on speed and reliability. True, but a downward or forward ejecting bullpup like the F2000, MDR, RDB, or even the P90 or being so crazy as mention the G11 caseless (which had it's own problems) would solve those problems. I think part of the problem is that nobody has made a practical, modern, battle-worthy bullpup with these attributes. The SAR-21 uses an aggressive case deflector that kicks the rounds out very forward though, which may also alleviate the problem. Sadly we can't get them here in the US. Another problem for bullpups from a foreign government perspective is that as an ally of the US, you can get M4s for practically free. And of course the weight. Although, it's worth mentioning the MDRX in .308 is lighter than a lot of AR-10s. |
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Originally Posted By Positronic: I've seen Bullpup in action... and they do not maniulate well at high speed close to the ground. Watched tavors choke on barrier shots, watched them INGEST empty cartridges bounced off the ground, and BACK into chamber, yep saw it live calling hits from behind shooter. To put it in short form, I have seen TAVOR run hard and fast next to AR15.... and the Tavor came up short on speed and reliability. Translation, you washed a bunch of people who have training bias and scars from other platforms and did not train adequately on the bullpup. This is pretty meaningless. |
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Originally Posted By KorneoDahGreat: Ambi magazine release/bolt controls for trigger finger, collapsible stock, longer rear end picatinny. Thats it. Whoever brings this complete package first will be the #1 bullpup. Its 2025 not god damn 1980. Never saw the Tavor? Welcome to 2014, classic one had ambi mag and bolt catches, and sufficient top rail. Not ideal, but enough for an LPVO, LAM, and a light on the side rail, just had to run a dual lead switch and velcro it to the forend. Stock is a touch long for some, but you have the option to swap butt plates to change LOP. |
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Originally Posted By TSH77769: Translation, you washed a bunch of people who have training bias and scars from other platforms and did not train adequately on the bullpup. This is pretty meaningless. Originally Posted By TSH77769: Originally Posted By Positronic: I've seen Bullpup in action... and they do not maniulate well at high speed close to the ground. Watched tavors choke on barrier shots, watched them INGEST empty cartridges bounced off the ground, and BACK into chamber, yep saw it live calling hits from behind shooter. To put it in short form, I have seen TAVOR run hard and fast next to AR15.... and the Tavor came up short on speed and reliability. Translation, you washed a bunch of people who have training bias and scars from other platforms and did not train adequately on the bullpup. This is pretty meaningless. Yup. The bias is clear. What is there specific to a Tavor/bullpup that would affect a round bouncing off the ground and back into the chamber? That’s a fluke and nothing more. With a mag inserted, how is the chamber height from the ground, different than with an AR? They’re both semi auto. The ejection port’s height from the ground would be similar. I don’t see how being a bullpup would increase the odds of a freak occurrence like that happening (and that’s not even accounting for the ridiculousness of the claim. How would ejected brass bounce off the GROUND, and back INTO the ejection port, even if you’re prone and close to the ground? Time travel? The brass isn’t going to be able to bounce back IN when the bolt slams closed). Choke on barrier shots? How? Why? I’ve done barrier shots with mine. Tavors don’t have reciprocating CHs, like old SCARs, so THAT isn’t a potential mode of failure. |
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Originally Posted By _DR: The French Foreign Legion is a renowned and capable fighting force. They have seen as much or more combat in Africa than any major power's armies. https://i.postimg.cc/jSNswT6N/R.jpg I fact, I would deem the French, "peak bullpup users". The "Bugle" (what the troops call the FAMAS) is effective, reliable, and deadly. And the French are ditching the FAMAS for.... an AR. |
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| I must say that it was handy having bullpups available to use as dedicated home defense rifles after each of my shoulder surgeries. Bullpups are easier to shoulder and fire one-handed. |
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I have a Aug and like it. It’s a right handed weapon for sure. Yes some models can be converted but you can’t just pick one up and use it. Trigger with red spring is ok. Gas plug makes it a bit better with a suppressor. Bottom line, it’s very short for a 16” gun. That’s it. The AR is better, especially as a issue military weapon. |
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True, and not many can do it any better than A M16/M4 type rifle. Especially for the price. We can make it more expensive and more complicated but we can’t make it any better. |
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The notion that average service members of any military are skilled enough to take advantage of any perceived superiority of a standard weapon is laughable. I saw plenty of diggers shoot the fuck out of F88s just fine. Yes, there are units where that is the case, but even then they tend to be a small minority. |
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Originally Posted By TSH77769: Originally Posted By TSH77769: Originally Posted By Positronic: This is a technical forum |
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| Adjustable stocks macht frei. I think it's impossible to overstate the increased importance of being able to shorten that LOP on the fly as body armor and such as become the norm. Combine that with the advantages of rail real estate for accessories that tend to outweigh any advantages to shorter OAL, and the whole concept seems lost in a bygone era. Besides, modern non-bullpups are already much shorter than the standard rifles bullpups were originally designed to be shorter than. |
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Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam: Adjustable stocks macht frei. I think it's impossible to overstate the increased importance of being able to shorten that LOP on the fly as body armor and such as become the norm. Combine that with the advantages of rail real estate for accessories that tend to outweigh any advantages to shorter OAL, and the whole concept seems lost in a bygone era. Besides, modern non-bullpups are already much shorter than the standard rifles bullpups were originally designed to be shorter than. On the OAL point, that's only achieved by using shorter barrels. You can also shorten the barrel on a bullpup if you are chasing size. I've seen a post with a 12.5" Foxtrot Mike upper on the new K&M pistol lower. It was stupid short even with a can. Regarding the second point, that's something that modern bullpups (i.e. not the old AUG, FAMAS, QBZ, etc...) are solving by having modern handguards. Even the AUG now has that option. But even with that, the ultimate way to solve this is by moving away from the way we use accessories today. Look at the WIlcox handguard for the G36. https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2020/10/19/wilcox-and-steyr-offers-solutions-for-the-heckler-koch-g36/ |
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Originally Posted By LeviBarAlphaeus: The above posters make me want to call these the "non-technical forums". Carry on. |
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Originally Posted By Positronic: Go tell that to the IDF with their micro-Tavors. |
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Why the U.S. military won’t use bullpup rifles (Page 1 of 2)
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