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What are the rarest transferables? (Page 1 of 3)
Posted: 7/13/2023 7:50:52 PM EDT
| Had a good discussion with a buddy at lunch about transferables. What do you guys think are the rarest ones? I’ve heard there is one m249 and maybe one PKM. Are there any Beretta Model 12’s? What about an Ultimax? |
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FG42 Oerlikon Stoner 63 Colt Monitor come to mind there are a few you can count on 1 hand |
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Gotta figure theyd be the expensive and hard to obtain at any price ones. Mk19 grenade machine gun has to be pretty rare: only a handful of pre-86 FFLs had the DD as well as the normal ability to make MGs and it's not like parts kits to remake were everywhere. I've seen the RAMO one that was transferable, and that's it. MAG 58 / M240. Only a couple on FNs books. M134 minigun. Hard to get parts from legit suppliers. Vulcan 20mm even moreso. Ultimax. Not sure about Amelli SAWs, they're post imports but maybe a few were few else's or otherwise "made" in the USA. This las one is a red herring because I kinda always wanted one. |
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I've read that there were twelve auto sears for the Beretta 93 made and registered before the ban. IIRC, there were also a few auto sears made for the S & W Model 59 pistols. Some 1911 pistols were converted to full auto and were popular with a few of the '20s and early '30s gangsters. Depending on the source, there are 100, 101, or 110 of the stainless steel transferrable Group Industries M16 lowers. The Venus 22-2 (double barrel) full auto pistols; the Trejo Models 1 and 2 full auto .22 pistols; the M134 "Puff the Magic Dragon" Gatling guns; and full auto AR-7 rifles are some other very scarce transferrable machine guns. MHO, YMMV, etc. |
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Originally Posted By GunDisaster: Beretta 93R is pretty rare Came to post this. Attached File |
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I believe most of the transferable 93r are registered frames. Some aluminum, some Ti. The possibility of a transferable Ultimax was discussed on Subguns some years ago. Dan Shea and others stated there are only presamples and post samples, no trannies. I recall there being only one Vilar-Perosa on the registry. There is only one transferable fn 249. Factory FN 240s are very rare. A friend has one. |
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I have a transferable Remington Model 8 in .35 REM. Copy of the original paperwork when it was registered: Attached File The Form 5 when I bought it: Attached File Notice how quick it was approved for me. Whole other story behind that…….. |
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Originally Posted By mak0: One came up for sale not too long ago. I believe they were asking $150,000 I remember that. Someone started a thread on /k/ asking about the value of some guns he'd inherited, and one turned out to be a 93R. Of course, 4chan being what it is, nobody believed him until he posted a timestamp, but whaddaya know, it turned out to be legit. One of those rare moments that makes 4chan worth browsing. |
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FWIW, "Submachine Guns of the United States of America" by Frank Iannamico includes writeups of at least a dozen extremely low production submachine guns, as well as the high production American made submachine guns. MHO, YMMV, etc. |
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Originally Posted By Villafuego: Exactly zero ....... Originally Posted By Villafuego: Originally Posted By DoubleTaps: I'd have to say the Glock 18 is in there. I know way less about how many were put in the register before 86. Exactly zero ....... |
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Originally Posted By prebans: I don't think the switch was invented until well after 1986..? Originally Posted By prebans: Originally Posted By November5: There is at least one switch though. I don't think the switch was invented until well after 1986..? |
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Originally Posted By amphibian: The late and great Tim Bixler did the Titanium 93Rs. Originally Posted By amphibian: The late and great Tim Bixler did the Titanium 93Rs. Yes and I think there is a SAR interview where he said he had a pre-86 DS 93R that he stripped of parts, then would send the frame to beretta and they’d replace the frame. He did that a few times and Beretta stopped replacing the parts. Originally Posted By KalmanPhilter: You don’t see too many AR-18s come up very often. I would not put those in the rare category. Less commonly seen than other transferables, but not rare. Originally Posted By akchef: There are Beretta PM12, but only the early ones with the push button selector and brown grips. Another rarity would be one of the factory select fire military hebrew marked military UZIs (not a semi auto conversion) and factory made (not converted Hk94) Mp5s. Whether there are actual pre-68 MP5s on the registry is a common point of discussion and contention. I’ve emailed with Dan Shea about this. He said there are a group of MP5s in use by a LE agency somewhere that were imported in 67 and 68 that are transferable but to his knowledge none have ever been transferred out into the commercial market. He would not disclose what agency owned them. Originally Posted By psp6785: I have a transferable Remington Model 8 in .35 REM. Copy of the original paperwork when it was registered: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/86507/49932BAA-F131-4276-A130-28BD77FD0D48_jpe-2885881.JPG The Form 5 when I bought it: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/86507/6C5EE0B3-11AB-4FFC-9AFE-CB80440D80F9_jpe-2885882.JPG Notice how quick it was approved for me. Whole other story behind that…….. Now that’s a rarity. Really cool. Do you shoot it? |
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Originally Posted By November5: It was just registered as a switch, not Glock specific. At some point it got rebuilt to fit a Glock. There was a thread on it several years ago. IIRC speculation was that it probably started as a S&W switch. Or even possibly that it was just a Form 1 for years that eventually got built as a Glock switch. The S&W pistol conversions were registered sears ..... and there is no possible (or legal) way to reconstruct one into a Glock conversion device. Even in 1986 you couldn't get a form 1 approved for a "generic" MG conversion device ..... |
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Originally Posted By JoshNC: I believe most of the transferable 93r are registered frames. Some aluminum, some Ti. The possibility of a transferable Ultimax was discussed on Subguns some years ago. Dan Shea and others stated there are only presamples and post samples, no trannies. I recall there being only one Vilar-Perosa on the registry. There is only one transferable fn 249. Factory FN 240s are very rare. A friend has one. One of my local shooting friends owned the one legitimate transferable M249 (SN# E00037) that was gotten out of FNMI by Dan Shea before it was destroyed in testing along with the rest. He had the letter from the BATFE confirming its authenticity and transferability. At one point he had it sent off to Desert Ordnance and completely rebuilt/refurbished with all new parts save the registered receiver box. I shot it on a few occasion and it was a bit spooky shooting a gun worth probably close to if not in excess of $1M. He had a two of the FNMI made M240B as well (one was shot and the other was NIB) and one of the Bixler/Boatman aluminum framed 93R guns that was sent off and had completely refurbished. Unfortunately, he sold the M249 and both M240s last year to another collector. I have also seen a pre-sample FN Minimi that was "laundered" into a transferable as well as it was clearly an intact Belgian made gun that was transferred on a tax paid F4. My guess is prior to 86 ban the FFL/SOT who owned the presample claimed it was "demilled" and then reregisted it on a F2 to wash away its pre-sample status. I was told there were multiple pre-sample Minimi's from the same FFL that were "turned transferable" and sold off in the late 80s to early 90s. Like the purported "remanufactured" transferable Glock switch, these guns live precariously in a very gray legal area and if their pedigree is ever discovered by the BATFE they are at risk of seizure. Similar to what I was told was the fate of the transferable Predator M134a, that the owner sent to Garwood to be "repaired" and when Garwood was raided the BATFE found the 'old painless' in the process of repair, but part of the repair was actually a complete receiver replacement and they carted the formerly transferable minigun away. |
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Originally Posted By jbntex: One of my local shooting friends owned the one legitimate transferable M249 (SN# E00037) that was gotten out of FNMI by Dan Shea before it was destroyed in testing along with the rest. He had the letter from the BATFE confirming its authenticity and transferability. At one point he had it sent off to Desert Ordnance and completely rebuilt/refurbished with all new parts save the registered receiver box. I shot it on a few occasion and it was a bit spooky shooting a gun worth probably close to if not in excess of $1M. He had a two of the FNMI made M240B as well (one was shot and the other was NIB) and one of the Bixler/Boatman aluminum framed 93R guns that was sent off and had completely refurbished. Unfortunately, he sold the M249 and both M240s last year to another collector. I have also seen a pre-sample FN Minimi that was "laundered" into a transferable as well as it was clearly an intact Belgian made gun that was transferred on a tax paid F4. My guess is prior to 86 ban the FFL/SOT who owned the presample claimed it was "demilled" and then reregisted it on a F2 to wash away its pre-sample status. I was told there were multiple pre-sample Minimi's from the same FFL that were "turned transferable" and sold off in the late 80s to early 90s. Like the purported "remanufactured" transferable Glock switch, these guns live precariously in a very gray legal area and if their pedigree is ever discovered by the BATFE they are at risk of seizure. Similar to what I was told was the fate of the transferable Predator M134a, that the owner sent to Garwood to be "repaired" and when Garwood was raided the BATFE found the 'old painless' in the process of repair, but part of the repair was actually a complete receiver replacement and they carted the formerly transferable minigun away. I recall him mentioning that he was selling those. Too bad he sold all of them. The predator minigun is sickening. |
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Originally Posted By Villafuego: The S&W pistol conversions were registered sears ..... and there is no possible (or legal) way to reconstruct one into a Glock conversion device. Even in 1986 you couldn't get a form 1 approved for a "generic" MG conversion device ..... Originally Posted By Villafuego: Originally Posted By November5: It was just registered as a switch, not Glock specific. At some point it got rebuilt to fit a Glock. There was a thread on it several years ago. IIRC speculation was that it probably started as a S&W switch. Or even possibly that it was just a Form 1 for years that eventually got built as a Glock switch. Even in 1986 you couldn't get a form 1 approved for a "generic" MG conversion device ..... |
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Originally Posted By November5: From what I recall the Form that was posted with the pics of the switch had a model name and caliber was listed as 9mm. There was nothing in the paperwork tying it to a specific handgun model. I'm trying to find the thread on it, but there's a ton of chaff to sort through. This sounds supiciously like the Broadhead Armory "BAM" series if registered triggers for the semi-auto open bolt MAC family. Folks have been stuffing these triggers into all sort of non-MAC platforms over the years and claiming its legal. There is even a BATFE letter where the writer essentially hood-winked the ATF asking if it could be installed into a semi auto host but cleverly left off the term MAC when asking the final question, so when the ATF responded it made it look like they were giving the blessing to install the trigger into a semi auto they could shoehorn the trigger into. |
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Originally Posted By jbntex: This sounds supiciously like the Broadhead Armory "BAM" series if registered triggers for the semi-auto open bolt MAC family. Folks have been stuffing these triggers into all sort of non-MAC platforms over the years and claiming its legal. There is even a BATFE letter where the writer essentially hood-winked the ATF asking if it could be installed into a semi auto host but cleverly left off the term MAC when asking the final question, so when the ATF responded it made it look like they were giving the blessing to install the trigger into a semi auto they could shoehorn the trigger into. A few years ago someone was selling a “transferable” SCAR17 with one of those triggers installed. |
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Originally Posted By JoshNC: A few years ago someone was selling a “transferable” SCAR17 with one of those triggers installed. I have seen them in a MK46, the SCAR series, and an RPD over the years if I recall correctly. It wouldn't surprise me one of those BAM triggers found its way into a Glock as it seems there are no shortage of dealers who are willing to put their customers at risk for financial gain. Speaking of rare transferables.... I am kinda surprised that nobody has bought that Ruger MK electronic auto-trigger briefcase that MWT has for sale and tried to "convert" the serialized aluminum plate that holds the actuator and electronics into a "transferable" minigun or something. |
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There are more Stoner 63 and 63a guns than you think out there.Total number of transferable guns is in the 110-150 range and there are presamples. There are 3 Swedish Kg m/37 guns that I have been able to track down. Mine being one of them. FG-42 guns of various sub models are more common than you think as well. Granted its probably less than 50. There are just a few Bofors 40mm cannon out there. They are registered as machine guns not as cannon in the NFA data base. Picture of 1 of 3 known Kg m/37 in the US and the only known snow sled mount for it in the US.  BTW there are quiet a few one off registered MGs by inventors and then there are a few rare ones like Mexican Medosa LMG, ZB39, etc. |
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Originally Posted By sgthatred: There are more Stoner 63 and 63a guns than you think out there.Total number of transferable guns is in the 110-150 range and there are presamples. There are 3 Swedish Kg m/37 guns that I have been able to track down. Mine being one of them. FG-42 guns of various sub models are more common than you think as well. Granted its probably less than 50. There are just a few Bofors 40mm cannon out there. They are registered as machine guns not as cannon in the NFA data base. Picture of 1 of 3 known Kg m/37 in the US and the only known snow sled mount for it in the US. http://weaponblueprints.com/mongo/pictures/Swedish-Kgm37-sled-left-open-with-BAR2.jpg BTW there are quiet a few one off registered MGs by inventors and then there are a few rare ones like Mexican Medosa LMG, ZB39, etc. Your kg m/37 is absolutely one of my favorite MGs. It and the FN D are the pinnacle of the BAR design. |
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Originally Posted By jbntex: One of my local shooting friends owned the one legitimate transferable M249 (SN# E00037) that was gotten out of FNMI by Dan Shea before it was destroyed in testing along with the rest. He had the letter from the BATFE confirming its authenticity and transferability. At one point he had it sent off to Desert Ordnance and completely rebuilt/refurbished with all new parts save the registered receiver box. I shot it on a few occasion and it was a bit spooky shooting a gun worth probably close to if not in excess of $1M. He had a two of the FNMI made M240B as well (one was shot and the other was NIB) and one of the Bixler/Boatman aluminum framed 93R guns that was sent off and had completely refurbished. Unfortunately, he sold the M249 and both M240s last year to another collector. I have also seen a pre-sample FN Minimi that was "laundered" into a transferable as well as it was clearly an intact Belgian made gun that was transferred on a tax paid F4. My guess is prior to 86 ban the FFL/SOT who owned the presample claimed it was "demilled" and then reregisted it on a F2 to wash away its pre-sample status. I was told there were multiple pre-sample Minimi's from the same FFL that were "turned transferable" and sold off in the late 80s to early 90s. Like the purported "remanufactured" transferable Glock switch, these guns live precariously in a very gray legal area and if their pedigree is ever discovered by the BATFE they are at risk of seizure. Similar to what I was told was the fate of the transferable Predator M134a, that the owner sent to Garwood to be "repaired" and when Garwood was raided the BATFE found the 'old painless' in the process of repair, but part of the repair was actually a complete receiver replacement and they carted the formerly transferable minigun away. Damn that makes me sick about the Predator mini gun! I didn't know that happened. I was fortunate enough to see it for sale at Knob Creek in 1997. If I remember correctly I think it had a $125K or $175K price tag then. |
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Originally Posted By sgthatred: There are more Stoner 63 and 63a guns than you think out there.Total number of transferable guns is in the 110-150 range and there are presamples. I’ve always thought that just due to the frequency of seeing them for sale. |
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Spend enough time talking to certain collectors and you'll find some really rare stuff. Recently a double gun, drum fed MG that came out of a downed Jap fighter. How many xferrable dshk have you seen, I've seen one, plus the one that sold on GB. As mentioned, there are a few 40mm bofors, and at least one, but probably a few 20mm M61 vulcans. There is one xm214 microgun on the registry AFAIK. |
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Originally Posted By Silverbear_51: According to "Bubba" Naess, there are around 24 transferable RPDs in-country. I shot one he owns at Eden several years ago. |
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Originally Posted By SGT-Fish: Spend enough time talking to certain collectors and you'll find some really rare stuff. Recently a double gun, drum fed MG that came out of a downed Jap fighter. How many xferrable dshk have you seen, I've seen one, plus the one that sold on GB. As mentioned, there are a few 40mm bofors, and at least one, but probably a few 20mm M61 vulcans. There is one xm214 microgun on the registry AFAIK. Do you remember what the dshk sold for? |
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Originally Posted By 02NBMFormula: Do you remember what the dshk sold for? I do not, nor do I know the model. Just remembered that another one sold at an auction house more recently. It was the older model with rotary feed mechanism and featured on "forgotten weapons." So there may be at least 3. The gentleman I know also have a rare Hotchkiss HMG that you can't even get ammo for, though another guy converted one to 50bmg. He has a basement full of very rare transferables, many are so rare that you haven't heard of them and he would have a hard time finding parts and ammo for them. |
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Originally Posted By SGT-Fish: I do not, nor do I know the model. Just remembered that another one sold at an auction house more recently. It was the older model with rotary feed mechanism and featured on "forgotten weapons." So there may be at least 3. The gentleman I know also have a rare Hotchkiss HMG that you can't even get ammo for, though another guy converted one to 50bmg. He has a basement full of very rare transferables, many are so rare that you haven't heard of them and he would have a hard time finding parts and ammo for them. Funny you mention that, and the "double barrel Japanese machine gun" in an earlier post. I have a friend here in FL that owns a Jap Type 89 Dual setup ....... he has been searching for the magazines for it for over 30 years ...  Pretty sure the other Jap 2-barreled gun was the Type 100 ..... |
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Originally Posted By Villafuego: Funny you mention that, and the "double barrel Japanese machine gun" in an earlier post. I have a friend here in FL that owns a Jap Type 89 Dual setup ....... he has been searching for the magazines for it for over 30 years ... https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1e/7.7mmType89DualMG.jpg Pretty sure the other Jap 2-barreled gun was the Type 100 ..... Very cool. It is indeed a type100. He only has one mag for it. It was a little bent up/damaged, possibly from the crash. He has quite a few other double MGs as well. There are a few floating around. It's just funny to me when people think a stoner63 is a rare MG, the really rare stuff doesn't come up for sale except every couple decades. |
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Originally Posted By SGT-Fish: Very cool. It is indeed a type100. He only has one mag for it. It was a little bent up/damaged, possibly from the crash. He has quite a few other double MGs as well. There are a few floating around. It's just funny to me when people think a stoner63 is a rare MG, the really rare stuff doesn't come up for sale except every couple decades. I’d still put a Cadillac Gage 63A in the relatively rare camp. All things considered. |
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What are the rarest transferables? (Page 1 of 3)
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