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What are the rarest transferables? (Page 3 of 3)
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Originally Posted By jbntex: I don't think FN FALs or Imbel SAR-48s are super rare. Probably a decent number of formerly pre-sample Belgian FALs factory imports are now transferable with the pre-sample to transferable designation change in the past year. When I bought my SAR-48 back in 2017-ish I think it maybe took me 6 to 9 months to find one. During that time I almost pulled the trigger on a couple of FN conversions but held out until a SAR-48 finally became available. I will say that since I bought my gun and had it converted to an OSW about 8 years ago, I think I could count on one hand the number of transferable FAL or SAR-48 OSW conversions I have seen for sale since then. So while regular FALs fall somewhere between rare and common, the transferable OSW conversions seem to only come up for sale every couple years or so. Originally Posted By jbntex: Originally Posted By PAESAN: Where do FALs and Springfield SAR-48s fall on the rarity scale? I don’t see many come up for sale… I don't think FN FALs or Imbel SAR-48s are super rare. Probably a decent number of formerly pre-sample Belgian FALs factory imports are now transferable with the pre-sample to transferable designation change in the past year. When I bought my SAR-48 back in 2017-ish I think it maybe took me 6 to 9 months to find one. During that time I almost pulled the trigger on a couple of FN conversions but held out until a SAR-48 finally became available. I will say that since I bought my gun and had it converted to an OSW about 8 years ago, I think I could count on one hand the number of transferable FAL or SAR-48 OSW conversions I have seen for sale since then. So while regular FALs fall somewhere between rare and common, the transferable OSW conversions seem to only come up for sale every couple years or so. Appreciate the write-up, jb, thanks. |
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Frank at midwest just posted a SAR-48 for sale today. The email I got had it listed $22k which is a really pretty good price as they are usually in mid 20s and up. https://www.gunspot.com/listings/detail/42719/transferable-springfield-armory-sar48-machine-gun/ |
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Originally Posted By spmx7777: Didn’t some very rare MGs get reclassified recently as transferable? I think they were all PD guns bought directly from the manufacturer. Something like that, I’m fuzzy on details. I think a Walther MPL was one. Any machinegun brought into the Country after the GCA of 68 and before FOPA in 86 that was imported specifically for Law Enforcement use and which has since satisfied its law enforcement import use and has since been surplused off by the LE agency is now eligible to transfer to a non-licensed individual. If the gun came in on an import permit for another reason (dealer demonstration, sales sample, maybe T&E...etc.) or I presume if the gun never actually got transferred to a PD after importation (to satisfy its LE use requirement) it would still be restricted to SOT or Government user. The BATFE appears to be researching each post-68/pre-86 import restricted gun's history (import reason, transfer history, etc.) either via a determination letter request from the current owner and/or upon receiving a tax paid Form 4 transfer to a non-SOT and then either responding back that the gun is now transferable or approving the Form 4. As to rarity I guess that sort of depends. The vast majority of the guns that came in for LE use are not going to be rare as in "exotic" other than they are factory examples of previously commonly available guns. Say factory made transferable German HK G3s machineguns which were really rare in transferable form (needing to be a pre-68 import to be transferable) but there are no shortage of transferable "G3" HK91 conversions. So the pool of transferable factory made G3 machineguns just took a huge jump as there is now another almost two decades of LE HK factory made G3 imports that would now be transferable. However, a G3 even in factory form isn't really an rare "exotic" gun in my opinion. A lot of these are going to be factory HK MP5s that while unobtanium in transferable form but are commonly available as conversions or sear guns. Clearly some collectors are paying big money for factory made examples of guns that have been commonly available in essentially mechanically identical form. (i.e. push pin HK94 conversion) Post-68 / Pre-86 Thompson re-imports from overseas for LE use are also becoming transferable and there are already large numbers of identical factory made transferable Thompsons as well, so in this case they pool of transferable Thompsons just got slightly bigger. That said there are other guns like Beretta 93Rs that were very rare in transferable form (conversions of 92s or Bixler/Boatman clone guns), or were unobtanium as transferable in Beretta Italian made factory form that are now available as transferable in very limited numbers. These guns were very rare/exotic as transferables even as conversions or clones and were still pretty rare/exotic even as pre-samples and now transferable. I have heard of a few FN Minimi's and 249s that also became transferable making the formerly "one of one" known provenance transferable M249 no longer the single transferable example. These latter two example (93R and Minimi/249) are more the exception vs. the norm though in this reclassficiation. |
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Originally Posted By HendersonDefense: I heard that there were twelve M-134's on the Registry at one time but that one was seized by BATF from Tracy Garwood a few years ago. Not sure accurate that information is today. V/R Ron Fwiw, the ATF eventually returned “old painless” to its owner… |
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Originally Posted By jbntex: Any machinegun brought into the Country after the GCA of 68 and before FOPA in 86 that was imported specifically for Law Enforcement use and which has since satisfied its law enforcement import use and has since been surplused off by the LE agency is now eligible to transfer to a non-licensed individual. If the gun came in on an import permit for another reason (dealer demonstration, sales sample, maybe T&E...etc.) or I presume if the gun never actually got transferred to a PD after importation (to satisfy its LE use requirement) it would still be restricted to SOT or Government user. So if a pre-sample transfers to a LE agency today, and then gets surplused out from that agency in a year or two, will it be declared fully transferable at that point? |
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local buddy has an mg81z dual mount aircraft machinegun captured at battle of the bulge and brought back by us soldier with capture papers. it was converted to ground use by the germans and used against our troops in the ground role. the gun fires 3600 shots per minute of 8mm mauser. i know of at least 1 other identical because my other buddy PJ owns it and i shot next to it all day at the miller invitational machinegun shoot in marietta ohio. alot of the rarest mg catagory would have to be pre 68 bringbacks and prototypes and rare gems from ww2 germany and japan. for instance i held a prototype bullpup japanese smg serial number 1 i think it was. not sure on how low the serial was but it was 1, 2 or 3 something like that. that was being handed around at knob creek years ago by a buddy so people could touch it and get a good look at it. i saw a very low serial hyde smg ww2 us made prototype on gunbroker years ago that was saw cut into a parts kit because someone lost its paperwork at some point. some of the best collections and rarest examples get destroyed by atf each year when guys go to jail over entraptment etc. for example the blind machinegun dealer known as ''the rifleman'' i never did find out if the hundreds of rare mgs got returned as some were from consignment vendors or if most or all were destroyed by initial first reports. they were going to be destroyed everyone said. kind of shocking if true because there were ultra low serial ar15 prototype tool room samples and so on that were a national treasure. there are still alot of rare transferable mgs actually. the rare gems had a knack for falling into collector hands in usa after major wars. |
independent fundamental baptist. NOT A COMMIE!
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Originally Posted By AK47_COMMBLOC: local buddy has an mg81z dual mount aircraft machinegun captured at battle of the bulge and brought back by us soldier with capture papers. it was converted to ground use by the germans and used against our troops in the ground role. the gun fires 3600 shots per minute of 8mm mauser. i know of at least 1 other identical because my other buddy PJ owns it and i shot next to it all day at the miller invitational machinegun shoot in marietta ohio. alot of the rarest mg catagory would have to be pre 68 bringbacks and prototypes and rare gems from ww2 germany and japan. for instance i held a prototype bullpup japanese smg serial number 1 i think it was. not sure on how low the serial was but it was 1, 2 or 3 something like that. that was being handed around at knob creek years ago by a buddy so people could touch it and get a good look at it. i saw a very low serial hyde smg ww2 us made prototype on gunbroker years ago that was saw cut into a parts kit because someone lost its paperwork at some point. some of the best collections and rarest examples get destroyed by atf each year when guys go to jail over entraptment etc. for example the blind machinegun dealer known as ''the rifleman'' i never did find out if the hundreds of rare mgs got returned as some were from consignment vendors or if most or all were destroyed by initial first reports. they were going to be destroyed everyone said. kind of shocking if true because there were ultra low serial ar15 prototype tool room samples and so on that were a national treasure. there are still alot of rare transferable mgs actually. the rare gems had a knack for falling into collector hands in usa after major wars. Your buddy PJ owns a lot of very rare transferables. |
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Originally Posted By WWIIWMD: FG42 Oerlikon Stoner 63 Colt Monitor come to mind there are a few you can count on 1 hand We didn't have hundreds (or at least dozens) of Monitors registered for free in 1968? |
I think the hardest thing for good LE working for good agencies to really absorb is that there are whole departments full of exactly the complete fuckheads we rail against here. - vectorsc
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Originally Posted By KitBuilder: @jbntex So if a pre-sample transfers to a LE agency today, and then gets surplused out from that agency in a year or two, will it be declared fully transferable at that point? It seem that the primary decider of whether something is eligible for reclassification was the justification/approval on the original Form 6 for importation. At the end of the day nobody really knows as its up to the NFA branch to either allow it to transfer on a tax paid Form 4 to a non-licensee or not. My impression was that if it was imported as a "dealer sales sample" back in the 70's & 80's there is currently no way to shake that restriction and it will always be a "pre-sample" only eligible for sale to another SOT or .Gov even if the gun was "washed" through an LE/.Gov sale today. If it was really imported for LE use on the Form 6 and for some reason that machinegun sat in some importers warehouse for 40+ years and the LE agency at the time never completed the sale and it was then sold today to an LE agency and then surplused out a couple years later than maybe. Honestly the whole Form 6 import reason/distinction doesn't really make sense to me. 922(o) only states that the machinegun had to be lawfully owned prior to enactment to effectively be grandfathered in. Both LE and Sample guns meet that requirement and were lawfully imported and lawfully owned prior to 922(o) I don't know why the ATF really cares so much at this point why it was imported as its now 40+ years later and that gun has now clearly fulfilled it LE or Sales Sample legal importation use reason. |
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Originally Posted By mattnh: Fwiw, the ATF eventually returned “old painless” to its owner… Originally Posted By mattnh: Originally Posted By HendersonDefense: I heard that there were twelve M-134's on the Registry at one time but that one was seized by BATF from Tracy Garwood a few years ago. Not sure accurate that information is today. V/R Ron Fwiw, the ATF eventually returned “old painless” to its owner… That is good news. The story I was told was the ATF seized it because Garwood completely replaced the original welded up GE based receiver as part of a "repair" scheme with a completely new Garwood based receiver and just moved the transferable serial number over to the new gun. Curious if you know if the owner got the original receiver back. Maybe Garwood had not destroyed the original welded GE receiver yet or what I was told was not accurate. |
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Originally Posted By jbntex: That is good news. The story I was told was the ATF seized it because Garwood completely replaced the original welded up GE based receiver as part of a "repair" scheme with a completely new Garwood based receiver and just moved the transferable serial number over to the new gun. Curious if you know if the owner got the original receiver back. Maybe Garwood had not destroyed the original welded GE receiver yet or what I was told was not accurate. I hadn't heard that. But garwood did get raided for selling parts to, and helping a dealer build miniguns that were obviously being sold to cartels. He kept his FFL through it all though. There are some articles on it if you Google around. To back up the other numbers, the 12 transferable minigun number supposedly included the m61 vulcan and an xm214 microgun. Im pretty positive the source of this info is from Dan Shea. He also said some transferable miniguns were owned by agencies and they were not interested in making a deal. |
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Originally Posted By SGT-Fish: To back up the other numbers, the 12 transferable minigun number supposedly included the m61 vulcan and an xm214 microgun. Im pretty positive the source of this info is from Dan Shea. He also said some transferable miniguns were owned by agencies and they were not interested in making a deal. |
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Originally Posted By SGT-Fish: I hadn't heard that. But garwood did get raided for selling parts to, and helping a dealer build miniguns that were obviously being sold to cartels. He kept his FFL through it all though. There are some articles on it if you Google around. To back up the other numbers, the 12 transferable minigun number supposedly included the m61 vulcan and an xm214 microgun. Im pretty positive the source of this info is from Dan Shea. He also said some transferable miniguns were owned by agencies and they were not interested in making a deal. A couple folks locally to me went to prison over the Garwood M134 smuggling to Mexico scheme. I think one of them was a former Sheriff deputy who also had an FFL. Tracey Garwood plead guilty to a felony for lying about destruction of Minigun receivers, which were then subsequently found illegally transferred during a raid of one of the other co-conspirators homes. If memory serves correctly Garwood escaped an actual prison sentence as he plead out but the other co-conspirators went to trial and were found guilty and got a couple years in prison. I am pretty sure he lost his FFL and is barred from owning firearms. |
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Originally Posted By jbntex: A couple folks locally to me went to prison over the Garwood M134 smuggling to Mexico scheme. I think one of them was a former Sheriff deputy who also had an FFL. Tracey Garwood plead guilty to a felony for lying about destruction of Minigun receivers, which were then subsequently found illegally transferred during a raid of one of the other co-conspirators homes. If memory serves correctly Garwood escaped an actual prison sentence as he plead out but the other co-conspirators went to trial and were found guilty and got a couple years in prison. I am pretty sure he lost his FFL and is barred from owning firearms. Further research says you are right. Still surprising that he avoided any jail time. |
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Originally Posted By SGT-Fish: Further research says you are right. Still surprising that he avoided any jail time. Sure seems like he must have been acting on behalf of a three letter agency. Too odd that a legitimate manufacturer of miniguns was supplying a cartel then gets no jail time. |
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My guess is that that Garwood escaped prison because he plead guilty and testified against the other guys who did end up going to prison. The other guys involved including the sheriff deputy were running a much larger gun running scheme to the Mexican cartels. The miniguns rotor housings were just part of a much larger scheme which smuggled thousands of guns into Mexico and into the cartels hands. Garwood was having money troubles and probably claimed he didn't know these were going to cartels and he was provided these to a LE officer (still illegally provided) but was probably a more sympathetic defendant vs. the folks who actually executed a much larger firearm smuggling criminal conspiracy. As a prosecutor you can punish Garwood by making him a felon, put him on probation for years, impose a big fine, take his FFL, and kill his firearm business and future livelihood from it. Garwood was probably deemed not as high a risk of reoffending as he never directly smuggling guns to Mexico and once you took his license and business his ability to provide illegal M134 housing and parts is basically gone as well. The other defendants, just because you cut off Garwood as a supplier doesn't mean they would stop smuggling guns to Cartels using other means/suppliers so were probably a much higher value target to actually put in prison to stop them. This is obviously speculation on my part but its not uncommon for one defendant who is deemed the lowest risk for reoffending to be offered a plea deal where in exchange for pleading guilty and his testimony against the other more high risk defendant that individual escapes an actual prison sentence. |
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Originally Posted By jbntex: My guess is that that Garwood escaped prison because he plead guilty and testified against the other guys who did end up going to prison. The other guys involved including the sheriff deputy were running a much larger gun running scheme to the Mexican cartels. The miniguns rotor housings were just part of a much larger scheme which smuggled thousands of guns into Mexico and into the cartels hands. Garwood was having money troubles and probably claimed he didn't know these were going to cartels and he was provided these to a LE officer (still illegally provided) but was probably a more sympathetic defendant vs. the folks who actually executed a much larger firearm smuggling criminal conspiracy. As a prosecutor you can punish Garwood by making him a felon, put him on probation for years, impose a big fine, take his FFL, and kill his firearm business and future livelihood from it. Garwood was probably deemed not as high a risk of reoffending as he never directly smuggling guns to Mexico and once you took his license and business his ability to provide illegal M134 housing and parts is basically gone as well. The other defendants, just because you cut off Garwood as a supplier doesn't mean they would stop smuggling guns to Cartels using other means/suppliers so were probably a much higher value target to actually put in prison to stop them. This is obviously speculation on my part but its not uncommon for one defendant who is deemed the lowest risk for reoffending to be offered a plea deal where in exchange for pleading guilty and his testimony against the other more high risk defendant that individual escapes an actual prison sentence. How in the world did these guys not think they’d get caught? And Garwood having money issues? He likely could have gotten any number of people to buy out his operation either in part or in full. |
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Originally Posted By JoshNC: How in the world did these guys not think they’d get caught? And Garwood having money issues? He likely could have gotten any number of people to buy out his operation either in part or in full. Good question on how did they think they would not get caught. Clearly these were not criminal masterminds behind this operation by any stretch. I am pretty sure all of those "80%" minigun rotor casting that were around 7 or 8 years ago were probably all Garwood units as well so maybe he got a little too comfortable and let a few fully machined casting go and not get pinched. As to the money issue I just assume that the firearm industry is very similar to the wine industry where the best way to end up with $1M is to start with $2M. Again this is from memory but Garwood was the minor player in the M134 market with Dillion holding most of the contracts with the Military. Garwood tried to make some incremental improvements to the minigun design by adjusting the ROF, battery packs, making components lighter, etc. some of which were successful and others which were apparently not so successful. Garwood may have gotten stuck with a bunch of warranty claims for broken gun, didn't have the revenue to support those obligations, GWOT dollars started to dry up, dealer demo letters starting getting denied for stuff like Miniguns, and there may not have been a big market for a company that was bleeding red ink, had millions in warranty obligations and had no other product lines other than one that was 99% dependent on military contracts of which the other supplier (Dillon) had the vast majority of those contracts. That said huge industry players like Colt and Remington have gone bankrupt (with Colt emerging and Remington's brands being carved up and sold off) and the industry is littered with mid to small players over the decades who have gone bankrupt and out of business for all sort of reasons. Some like Sabre Defense did dumb illegal stuff just like Garwood did and others like Anderson Mfg. just died this week for what appears to just be purely financial reasons. |
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Originally Posted By jbntex: Good question on how did they think they would not get caught. Clearly these were not criminal masterminds behind this operation by any stretch. I am pretty sure all of those "80%" minigun rotor casting that were around 7 or 8 years ago were probably all Garwood units as well so maybe he got a little too comfortable and let a few fully machined casting go and not get That said huge industry players like Colt and Remington have gone bankrupt (with Colt emerging and Remington's brands being carved up and sold off) and the industry is littered with mid to small players over the decades who have gone bankrupt and out of business for all sort of reasons. Some like Sabre Defense did dumb illegal stuff just like Garwood did and others like Anderson Mfg. just died this week for what appears to just be purely financial reasons. Pretty well said. Though Garwood did have a decent mil contract at some point. Could be that it dried up. Also, Anderson didn't necessarily fail. They were bought out by Ruger. While it could be because they were headed for bankruptcy, it could also be that the group of owners just wanted to cash out. |
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I do remember some of the more one-off items sold in the past 20-30 years, I’d certainly put these on thst list: Transferable Gilbert Industries USAS-12 (only one) auctioned by LMO back in the 90s Pancor Jackhammer One of Max Atchisson’s original 1970s prototype AA-12 shotguns sold by his widow under some very questionable terms. Several Colt toolroom AR-15/M16 prototypes that Vollmer sold for a song back in 1992 or so. Transferable Colt CMG prototype Winchester Liberator Shotgun GE Six-Pack 5.56 minigun Get yourself some old Machine Gun News issues and look at the ads if you want a fun trip back in time… |
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Originally Posted By Homeinvader: GE Six-Pack 5.56 minigun Get yourself some old Machine Gun News issues and look at the ads if you want a fun trip back in time… Xm214 microgun is the nomenclature I believe. What a cool little gun. I havent heard any talk of who owns it or where its at since it showed up to knob creek a few decades ago. And now its harder to find info online because everyone thinks you are talking about the empty shell xm556 or the profense pf556 |
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When I had my Norrell 10/22, everyone wanted to shoot it. So they'd offer you a mag to mag swap. I spent 75 cents to fill my mag. The guy with the American 180 would spend $ 4. And the Fleming HK51K fellow would spend $12. So I got to shoot a lot of rare and historically significant guns. I was always amazed they wanted to shoot my Norrell. So in answer to what I've seen, the John Norrell full automatic 10/22, would be one the collectors would want Attached File |
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Originally Posted By Homeinvader: I do remember some of the more one-off items sold in the past 20-30 years, I’d certainly put these on thst list: Transferable Gilbert Industries USAS-12 (only one) auctioned by LMO back in the 90s Pancor Jackhammer One of Max Atchisson’s original 1970s prototype AA-12 shotguns sold by his widow under some very questionable terms. Several Colt toolroom AR-15/M16 prototypes that Vollmer sold for a song back in 1992 or so. Transferable Colt CMG prototype Winchester Liberator Shotgun GE Six-Pack 5.56 minigun Get yourself some old Machine Gun News issues and look at the ads if you want a fun trip back in time… I know someone with a transferable Colt CMG-2. |
What are the rarest transferables? (Page 3 of 3)
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