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What Bullpups are as reliable or more reliable than a mid-level AR15? For HD/SHTF? Is it.... (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 7/23/2026 5:05:41 PM EDT
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Looking at different bullpups for home defense/SHTF. Reliability is paramount. I like AUGs but have been looking at some of the others like the Tavor, Hellion, etc. Parts seem hard to find for the Tavor, even for the Aug and others. What Bullpups are as reliable or more reliable than a mid-level AR15? For HD/SHTF? Would you choose a bullpup over an AR15 for HD/SHTF? |
What we've got here is a failure to communicate.
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PS90. It has been tested to 100,000 rounds & was still chugging along. Wieldable with one hand while tending injured, opening a door, etc. 50 rounds before you need a reload. Light enough to carry a long distance & mount an optic like the mini ACOGs. |
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Originally Posted By Dance: Looking at different bullpups for home defense/SHTF. Reliability is paramount. I like AUGs but have been looking at some of the others like the Tavor, Hellion, etc. Parts seem hard to find for the Tavor, even for the Aug and others. What Bullpups are as reliable or more reliable than a mid-level AR15? For HD/SHTF? Would you choose a bullpup over an AR15 for HD/SHTF? My HD gun is a Tavor SAR, with T2 RDS, and the DBAL with Steiner slaved light combo (2 pressure switches. Finger side switch is white light and Vis. Thumb side is IR). It’s been every bit as reliable as a top tier AR. The rearward balance allows wielding, aiming and firing 1-handed (allowing you to use the other hand for grabbing doorknobs or little kids). Compact length is much better for maneuvering. Still get the ballistics of the 16.5” barrel. The ONLY time I had issues with it, was letting a friend try shooting it at a range that required the use of their ammo. The stuff was frangible, and my buddy (who despite owning many pistols and shotguns, has apparently never shot any semi-auto carbine before), short stroked loading the first round, which crumbled the tip of the frangible round, and the fragments then prevented the bolt from seating properly until the fragments were cleaned out. With regular copper jacketed FMJ or OTM (and even stuff like Federal Fusion MSR, Black Hills 77gr TMK, and Winchester RA556B), no malfunctions of any kind. |
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What Bullpups are as reliable or more reliable than a mid-level AR15 The issue with a question like this is that it isn't well defined. The people using these guns on the daily in life or death situations believe that a failure once every 3 magazines on battle tested weapons is ok for a serious life and death use. https://www.military.com/defensetech/2007/12/17/m4-comes-in-last-place-in-dust-test Considering how civilians will have fewer shoot outs in their entire life than say a US marine will in a week or two of patrol in GWOT, the civilian guns will obviously have a lower round count, and you probably won't have had a Grunt decide to use the rifle as a prybar once in the last 10 years. I suspect the idea of 'reliability' is a market term to get people to spend more money. If the gun runs without stoppages in two mags (after a wear in period) it is probably reliable enough for the average Police Officer who don't ever fire their weapon while outside of training events (75% of police officers go their entire career without shooting someone). Nearly all bullpups will meet this threshold. I would be more concerned with if you drop the gun will stuff break on it (including what you attach to it) and as you pointed out availability of parts (even though you probably won't put enough rounds through it in a SHTF/HD situation where a part will break). An AR 15 will be hard to beat in a lot of ways, namely due to the price and weight. However for any serious use whatever choice you go with should protect you just fine if you are comfortable with it. |
| I have only owned 3 bull pups...one 20"barreled Aug, one 16" barreled Aug, and one FN FS2000. I never had any problems with any of them, but decided to stay with the Ar15 type rifles simply because the logistics of acquiring spare parts or aftermarket parts was vastly easier with the AR15 type system. The Aug has an extremely good performance record and that is probably why it has been around as long as it has been and why it is in use by so many different countries and military services. |
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I'm an AUG fan, but I'd definitely prefer an AR for home defense or SHTF. I've tried 5.56mm rifles from all over the world and the AR is the best. Nothing wrong with the PS90 (I have one of those too) but the 5.56mm ammo is more powerful, more readily available, and less expensive. It's certainly a great HD weapon, but I wouldn't prefer to be patrolling outside with it. |
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I remember in the old Battlefield Las Vegas thread the Op mentioning how the AUG just keeps on going with nothing needing replacement. But again, this is just pure round count in a controlled environment without any rough handling of the rifle. I like the AUG because it stays VERY clean during firing. 200 rounds and it looks freshly cleaned and oiled. 20 rounds in my best AR and it is filthy. My only concern is durability during rough handling. I know what the AR can survive but Ive never seen the AUG thrown around. Id like to see a torture test where a typical AR and a new production AUG (and maybe other bullpups like Tavor etc) are drop tested side by side. |
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Originally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER: I remember in the old Battlefield Las Vegas thread the Op mentioning how the AUG just keeps on going with nothing needing replacement. But again, this is just pure round count in a controlled environment without any rough handling of the rifle. I like the AUG because it stays VERY clean during firing. 200 rounds and it looks freshly cleaned and oiled. 20 rounds in my best AR and it is filthy. My only concern is durability during rough handling. I know what the AR can survive but Ive never seen the AUG thrown around. Id like to see a torture test where a typical AR and a new production AUG (and maybe other bullpups like Tavor etc) are drop tested side by side. The test results above showed that in general the Piston guns they tried were 2 to 3 times more reliable than the M4. The XM8 was surprisingly the most reliable of all of them and it was DI. Sending crud into the BCG, in general, doesn't help on the reliability front. Without testing, it would be safe bet to assume from a stoppage perspective, a piston driven bullpup would be more 'reliable' than your average infantry M4 or AR15. |
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Originally Posted By FrozenIceman: The XM8 was surprisingly the most reliable of all of them and it was DI. Sending crud into the BCG, in general, doesn't help on the reliability front. The G36 is extremely reliable. It’s plastic so it can catch fire when hot enough, but it still functions while on fire (until enough of it cooks that it gets out of alignment and can’t anymore). lol HK filmed a pretty impressive video showing this.  G36 900 Rounds Full Auto Fire Until Failure Test 3:11 is about where it fails. 900 rounds! |
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Originally Posted By KitBuilder: XM8 uses short stroke piston operation. It’s basically a G36. The G36 is extremely reliable. It’s plastic so it can catch on fire when hot enough, but it still functions while on fire (until enough of it cooks that it gets out of alignment and can’t anymore). lol HK filmed a pretty impressive video showing this. In that case, that solves the why it performed better problem. Piston guns appear to be more reliable by a factor of 2 or 3 compared to DI guns. |
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I have a AUG, Hellion and X95 and like them all. The Hellion has the most likeable charging IMO. The AUG is classic and just works. The X95 has the best manual of arms when it comes to safety and mag release if your coming from a AR. With that said I think the X95 is probably the best buy. I Have seen them used for a good price. The Hellion is a close second. The AUGs are kinda high for what they are. X95 is probably the better candidate if you want to add a bunch of stuff like lights, laser etc... The AUG doesn't have any real rail space. Hellion is close to X95 in that regards but has a bad safety design and LOP is kinda long for a bull pup. But is the best to suppress if you are wanting to do so. I have read the X95 is not a good suppressor host and its not recommended to suppress, but see guys on IG that do. The Micro X95 SBR is pretty slick and would love to buy one. Edit: will add that I have owned a Tavor SAR and it was awful. And good friend has a P90 SBR and its slick. But just didnt care to get into a new caliber and mags. All of the above I have take standard AR mags. |
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Originally Posted By swampfoxoutdoors: Hellion is close to X95 in that regards but has a bad safety design and LOP is kinda long for a bull pup. But is the best to suppress if you are wanting to do so. Does your Hellion have the original safety levers (canted upwards)? Mine are the new design (horizontal when on safe), they work great. |
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A lot of places have the Hellion for $1300 right now. Bereli being the first that comes to mind. Honestly, it’d be my first recommendation. HS Produkt makes a high quality gun, it has pretty much every feature you’d expect for a modern firearm. The mag release and bolt release are a little crude but nothing practice can’t train. I have both the first and second gen safeties between my two and while the second gen is better, the first gen is workable. I used to be all about Steyr but I can’t shake the feeling their QC has been on vacation since Covid. And six years later is too long for the excuses to continue. I like the Tavor SAR a lot but it’s out of production and replaced with the X95 which I do not like as much. They are rugged guns but more akin to the AK of bullpups. The Tavor 7 is much more refined but also .308 so probably overkill. The Hellion in the hot buy at the moment! |
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The opinions expressed here are my own and do not necessarily reflect the views of my employer or their customers.
| My current home defense gun is a RDB, I think it's the best new rifle design in decades and just wish Kel-Tec would continue to evolve it. That being said, if I had to go out and do serious social work for months on end I'd grab one of my AUGs over any of my ARs. |
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I like the MDRx in 5.56 and 308. Modern controls, you can split the upper and lower receivers like an AR for cleaning, adjustable gas for tuning. Gun has always gone bang when I pulled the trigger and the accuracy in both Calibers are fantastic, 1 to 1.5 moa 10 shot groups, (note stock 5.56 and aftermarket 308 bull barrel). Only downside is that in the 5.56 configuration it is heavy. I did replace the FE chute with the FE to SE and dust cover though (reduces parts, complexity, and weight by about half a pound) and easier to inspect for malfunctions. It will yeat the brass like crazy if you don't have a way to catch the brass. |
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For me the X95 SBR. It's reliable, from my experience and from what I've read it's better gassed than the full size X95. It can be gassy, but a flow through silencer helps with that. What sells it for me is the OAL of just under 23" while being in 5.56 with a 13" barrel. Very few people would debate that a 13" 5.56 barrel is enough barrel to achieve sufficient velocity for HD distances. It's shorter in OAL and more proven than the Micron, which only has an 11" barrel. Shorter OAL is good as I run HD guns suppressed. Plus Geissele makes a trigger and trigger pack for it, that make the trigger actually good. It also has sufficient rail space for a light and sling attachment space. Both of which are must haves for a HD gun to me. |
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Originally Posted By FrozenIceman: I like the MDRx in 5.56 and 308. Modern controls, you can split the upper and lower receivers like an AR for cleaning, adjustable gas for tuning. Gun has always gone bang when I pulled the trigger and the accuracy in both Calibers are fantastic, 1 to 1.5 moa 10 shot groups, (note stock 5.56 and aftermarket 308 bull barrel). Only downside is that in the 5.56 configuration it is heavy. I did replace the FE chute with the FE to SE and dust cover though (reduces parts, complexity, and weight by about half a pound) and easier to inspect for malfunctions. It will yeat the brass like crazy if you don't have a way to catch the brass. Why not get the Wlvrn? It's lighter and more reliable. |
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Originally Posted By Skyler2000: Why not get the Wlvrn? It's lighter and more reliable. It is coming down to a few things. 1. My MDRX has a ES Tactical Bull Barrel in it and will probably outperform the WLVRN stock barrel by a lot. ES Tactical stopped making bull barrels for DT Semi Autos so if I wanted to do the same for the WLVRN I would need to go custom order with someone who may not have made one before. 2. The MDRX is heavy for 5.56 but pretty light for a 308 gun. WLVRN, I suspect, is borderline unpleasant to shoot in 308 as it shaves off 2 pounds (probably will be ok with 6.5 Creed). We see that in reviews when the WLVRN is compared to the T7 which is about 30% to 40% heavier than the WLVRN. 3. OEM has a tendency to do yearly product improvements (and many of them unannounced), I'm waiting for a few years for the majority of the product improvements to get put into the guns. Let the early adopters pay the early adopter tax. 4. OEM hinted at a rifle length gas system for the WLVRN in promo videos, maybe even a HBAR option, once that becomes available I'll probably trade up to the WLVRN. As far as more reliable goes, it should be, but realistically the MDRX is plenty reliable. Most of the MDRX issues were out of box quality issues + an issue with the Trunnion fasteners loosening (fixed with Loctite Red which was added in production a few years later). If you get one that works (like mine did) you don't usually have any issues. |
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Originally Posted By Skyler2000: Why not get the Wlvrn? It's lighter and more reliable. From my experience, the MDRX has been hard to beat. My .308 has turned in groups as small as 1.1 MOA for 10 shots (factory ammo & Factory barrel), which is more accuracy than I can realistically ask for from a battle rifle. I have shot the WLVRN in .308 and 6.5cm and while it's definitely a little snappier than the MDRX, it's not a dramatic difference. Accuracy-wise, I thought the 308 WLVRN was solidly battle rifle accurate. If I had to pick one, I actually felt like the MDRX had a slight edge in precision in 308. It wasn't enough to matter for most shooters, but I consistently shot the MDRX a little better. I also think the reliability issues with the forward-eject MDRX are often overstated. I'm not saying there weren't early QC problems or that some people didn't have legitimate issues, but that hasn't been my experience. I've owned two MDR(X) chassis and four conversion kits, and every one of them has run reliably with proper maintenance. For me, the platform has been dependable, so I think its reputation is sometimes worse than its actual performance—especially with the later production rifles. Like any firearm, maintenance matters, but I haven't found the forward-eject system to be inherently unreliable. The biggest thing the WLVRN has going for it, in my opinion, is the weight. At around 7.4 lbs in 5.56, it's noticeably lighter than the forward-eject MDRX. If your priority is carrying the rifle all day, that's a legitimate advantage. Otherwise, based on my experience, I don't feel like I'm giving up anything meaningful by sticking with the MDRX. |
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Id like to try the desert tech but the price is a bit steep for me. I never view my bullpups as front line use guns for me. Just something to play with on the farm. So $2k+ for a gun I wont shoot much just doesn't make sense. With that said my hellion and x95 was both bought used at a big discount, and shopped around for the AUG and wanted the new NATO version and caught it on sale. |
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Originally Posted By swampfoxoutdoors: Id like to try the desert tech but the price is a bit steep for me. I never view my bullpups as front line use guns for me. Just something to play with on the farm. So $2k+ for a gun I wont shoot much just doesn't make sense. With that said my hellion and x95 was both bought used at a big discount, and shopped around for the AUG and wanted the new NATO version and caught it on sale. Why not? The X95, AUG, and Hellion are all reliable combat rifles that have seen real combat. |
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Originally Posted By swampfoxoutdoors: Id like to try the desert tech but the price is a bit steep for me. I never view my bullpups as front line use guns for me. Just something to play with on the farm. So $2k+ for a gun I wont shoot much just doesn't make sense. With that said my hellion and x95 was both bought used at a big discount, and shopped around for the AUG and wanted the new NATO version and caught it on sale. Used MDRX's are going for a fire sale on the used market. The introduction of the WLVRN cut the resale value of the MDRX in half or at least they did at introduction. It will probably go up again as a unique yesteryear rifle in a decade or two. If you are patient you can probable get a used MDRX for between $1300-$1500. Note, they have lifetime transferable warranty which is super nice if there is ever an issue. |
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Originally Posted By Skyler2000: Why not? The X95, AUG, and Hellion are all reliable combat rifles that have seen real combat. FYI, so has the MDRX and Sub-2000 in the largest war that the world has seen since Vietnam (I.E. Ukraine). That makes everything the X-95 was put through in the last 20 years look like a brush fire. This is a pretty poor metric to measure a rifle by, that old adage of "military grade" comes to mind. We can also see this in the reliability link above where it is acceptable for a combat rifle to have one stoppage every 3 magazines. To put this in perspective, the SA-80 Gen 1 is a combat proven piece of crap. |
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Originally Posted By Odinforever2000: Ah yes, the classic 'it saw combat' argument. By that metric, every rifle ever issued to an army is automatically top tier." Like it or not, no amount of civilian use puts a comparable mileage on a comparable number of guns under comparable range of conditions. It's a great way to find and fix any teething problems. Do you think AR15 would be the workhorse it is today without the decades of Western militaries' institutional experience? With that said, I've read about some number of DTs making it to Ukraine, but unfortunately no details about the number, how they were used and how they performed. |
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Originally Posted By voyager3: Like it or not, no amount of civilian use puts a comparable mileage on a comparable number of guns under comparable range of conditions. It's a great way to find and fix any teething problems. Do you think AR15 would be the workhorse it is today without the decades of Western militaries' institutional experience? With that said, I've read about some number of DTs making it to Ukraine, but unfortunately no details about the number, how they were used and how they performed. I don't think that's something you can just assume. The U.S. alone has tens of millions of AR-15s in civilian hands, thousands of commercial ranges, training schools, rental fleets, and competitive shooters. Collectively, civilian shooters almost certainly put an enormous number of rounds downrange every year. Unless you have data comparing total military and civilian round counts, it's hard to argue that civilian use isn't comparable. Ukraine isn't Vietnam for small arms. The dominant killers are drones, artillery, and mines, not rifles. Unless a weapon is catastrophically unreliable, there's very little public reporting on how one service rifle performs versus another. The absence of detailed reports on the DT doesn't really tell us much...Seen Keltecs in some photos too.. |
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Originally Posted By Odinforever2000: Ah yes, the classic 'it saw combat' argument. By that metric, every rifle ever issued to an army is automatically top tier." Originally Posted By Odinforever2000: Originally Posted By Skyler2000: Why not? The X95, AUG, and Hellion are all reliable combat rifles that have seen real combat. Ah yes, the classic 'it saw combat' argument. By that metric, every rifle ever issued to an army is automatically top tier." Yeah, but these ones ARE top tier. Especially the AUG. And also you're not seeing any Army adopt a Keltec. |
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And remember, the M4 acceptable failure rate for a front line combat weapon is 1 failure every 3 magazines according to US Mil testing. That level of quality in a civilian gun would be unacceptable. Mil had the option to go with a rifle that was 3 times more reliable and decided that wasn't worth it. That is the standard that combat weapons are measured against. With that said, I've read about some number of DTs making it to Ukraine, but unfortunately no details about the number, how they were used and how they performed. When one says "combat proven" there is no clarification required for how combat proven. It is a boolean question only. That being said the bolt guns were standard kit in the Ukranian military before the war, I saw a Ukraine promotional image where a shipment of at least 6 MDRX's made it to Ukraine with at least 3 DT bolt guns in 2023. |
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Originally Posted By Odinforever2000: I don't think that's something you can just assume. The U.S. alone has tens of millions of AR-15s in civilian hands, thousands of commercial ranges, training schools, rental fleets, and competitive shooters. Collectively, civilian shooters almost certainly put an enormous number of rounds downrange every year. Unless you have data comparing total military and civilian round counts, it's hard to argue that civilian use isn't comparable. Ukraine isn't Vietnam for small arms. The dominant killers are drones, artillery, and mines, not rifles. Unless a weapon is catastrophically unreliable, there's very little public reporting on how one service rifle performs versus another. The absence of detailed reports on the DT doesn't really tell us much...Seen Keltecs in some photos too.. Originally Posted By Odinforever2000: Originally Posted By voyager3: Like it or not, no amount of civilian use puts a comparable mileage on a comparable number of guns under comparable range of conditions. It's a great way to find and fix any teething problems. Do you think AR15 would be the workhorse it is today without the decades of Western militaries' institutional experience? With that said, I've read about some number of DTs making it to Ukraine, but unfortunately no details about the number, how they were used and how they performed. I don't think that's something you can just assume. The U.S. alone has tens of millions of AR-15s in civilian hands, thousands of commercial ranges, training schools, rental fleets, and competitive shooters. Collectively, civilian shooters almost certainly put an enormous number of rounds downrange every year. Unless you have data comparing total military and civilian round counts, it's hard to argue that civilian use isn't comparable. Ukraine isn't Vietnam for small arms. The dominant killers are drones, artillery, and mines, not rifles. Unless a weapon is catastrophically unreliable, there's very little public reporting on how one service rifle performs versus another. The absence of detailed reports on the DT doesn't really tell us much...Seen Keltecs in some photos too.. Civilians aren't dragging their rifles over hot rocks and thorn bushes. Civilian AR15s are not sliding down mountains. Or crawling across the desert. Infantry weapons take a beating. |
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Originally Posted By Skyler2000: Civilians aren't dragging their rifles over hot rocks and thorn bushes. Civilian AR15s are not sliding down mountains. Or crawling across the desert. Infantry weapons take a beating. Originally Posted By Skyler2000: Civilians aren't dragging their rifles over hot rocks and thorn bushes. Civilian AR15s are not sliding down mountains. Or crawling across the desert. Infantry weapons take a beating. That's moving the goalposts. We were talking about round counts, and now you're talking about battlefield abuse. Sure, infantry rifles are subjected to far harsher environmental conditions than almost any civilian rifle. But that isn't especially relevant to civilian use. If the question is whether a rifle is a good choice for civilian owners, what matters is how it performs in civilian conditions—reliability over high round counts, parts life, maintenance, and consistency. Very few civilians are dragging their rifles over rocks, crawling through thorn bushes, or spending weeks in the field. Those are legitimate military requirements, but they're a separate discussion from whether a rifle has proven itself for civilian ownership. Originally Posted By Skyler2000: Yeah, but these ones ARE top tier. Especially the AUG. And also you're not seeing any Army adopt a Keltec. The AUG is a great military rifle, but that doesn't automatically make it a great civilian rifle. For a civilian shooter in 2026, it's pretty dated unless you're happy leaving it mostly stock. The trigger is still mediocre compared to a decent AR (OR Modern Bullpups like the WLVRN,RDB or K&MM17s), suppressor compatibility isn't nearly as straightforward, rail space and accessory mounting are limited, and the aftermarket is tiny by comparison. If you like the AUG for what it is, that's fine, but it's not exactly the most adaptable platform. Military adoption tells you a rifle met a military's requirements. It doesn't mean it's the best fit for civilian shooters, whose priorities are often things like modularity, optics mounting, suppressor use, aftermarket support, and ease of customization. |
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Originally Posted By Skyler2000: Why not? The X95, AUG, and Hellion are all reliable combat rifles that have seen real combat. 20yrs of shooting and enjoying ARs. Don’t want to take the time and reps to be as equally proficient with one of my bullpups. Just a personal reason. Nothing based on military robustness. If all I ever shot for 20rs was a mini 14. I’d probably be the same way with a AR. |
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For me I would go with one of the big 3, X95/SAR, AUG, or Hellion. All are proven systems and do well in their own right. All have passed military rifle trials and have seen hard used and have been retained by adopting countries. Aug has the longest track record followed by the Tavor and the Hellion. Each has its ups and downs, but all are serviceable. I have a Wlvrn and it's a cool bullpup, but DT rifles can't even pass a YouTube review out of the box let alone a military rifle trial. The WLVRN and MDR are bullpups that offer more than the other big 3, but at a cost of hit or miss quality, and your willingness to deal with warranty claims or fix the problems yourself. Problems I've had with my WLVRN at about 3000 rounds. (Most of these issues were in the first 1000) -Dropping mags -one instance of trigger not resetting -numerous ejection/feeding/gas issues -rear pin walking out (will do damage if you don't catch it) -cracked bolt lugs -left over nitride salt flakes I had to wipe off my barrel -possible excessive wear on can pin, but seems to have stabilized. -gaslighting by DT on YouTube for me calling out these problems Rifle went back to DT twice, and some of the other issues I just fixed myself as I knew how to solve them. Ie I vented gas plug to fix ejection issues before DT announced new vented plugs. X95 I have 8k thru, only had a broken firing pin spring. Aug is probably about 1000 between two rifles, one was flawless, other had undersized top rail and mag catch. Steyr sent me replacement parts at no cost and is good now. Hellion, not many rounds, but no initial issues yet. |
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Originally Posted By tavorsterling: Snip/ I have a Wlvrn and it's a cool bullpup, but DT rifles can't even pass a YouTube review out of the box let alone a military rifle trial. The WLVRN and MDR are bullpups that offer more than the other big 3, but at a cost of hit or miss quality, and your willingness to deal with warranty claims or fix the problems yourself. Problems I've had with my WLVRN at about 3000 rounds. (Most of these issues were in the first 1000) -Dropping mags -one instance of trigger not resetting -numerous ejection/feeding/gas issues -rear pin walking out (will do damage if you don't catch it) -cracked bolt lugs -left over nitride salt flakes I had to wipe off my barrel -possible excessive wear on can pin, but seems to have stabilized. -gaslighting by DT on YouTube for me calling out these problems Rifle went back to DT twice, and some of the other issues I just fixed myself as I knew how to solve them. Ie I vented gas plug to fix ejection issues before DT announced new vented plugs. Weren't most, if not all, of those issues with your .308 WLVRN? What problems have you actually had with the .223? I'm asking because I was under the impression the list you posted was almost entirely from your .308 experience, so it'd be helpful to know which issues, if any, were specific to the .223. |
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Yes most of the issues are from 308, but 5.56 still had the rear pin wanting to walk out,cam pin abnormal wear, and gas valves needed to be vented to cure gas setting excessive sensitivity. It is much better in 5.56, and imho the gun is a 5.56 gun with 30i forced into it. They probably should have just released the Wlvrn not having 308 capability, and just focusing on 5.56, and similar rounds. But everyone would have complained, and far as I can tell the lower polymer is mostly unchanged from the MDRx so the Wlvrn is mostly just an upgraded upper receiver. |
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Originally Posted By tavorsterling: For me I would go with one of the big 3, X95/SAR, AUG, or Hellion. All are proven systems and do well in their own right. All have passed military rifle trials and have seen hard used and have been retained by adopting countries. Aug has the longest track record followed by the Tavor and the Hellion. Each has its ups and downs, but all are serviceable. I have a Wlvrn and it's a cool bullpup, but DT rifles can't even pass a YouTube review out of the box let alone a military rifle trial. The WLVRN and MDR are bullpups that offer more than the other big 3, but at a cost of hit or miss quality, and your willingness to deal with warranty claims or fix the problems yourself. Problems I've had with my WLVRN at about 3000 rounds. (Most of these issues were in the first 1000) -Dropping mags -one instance of trigger not resetting -numerous ejection/feeding/gas issues -rear pin walking out (will do damage if you don't catch it) -cracked bolt lugs -left over nitride salt flakes I had to wipe off my barrel -possible excessive wear on can pin, but seems to have stabilized. -gaslighting by DT on YouTube for me calling out these problems Rifle went back to DT twice, and some of the other issues I just fixed myself as I knew how to solve them. Ie I vented gas plug to fix ejection issues before DT announced new vented plugs. X95 I have 8k thru, only had a broken firing pin spring. Aug is probably about 1000 between two rifles, one was flawless, other had undersized top rail and mag catch. Steyr sent me replacement parts at no cost and is good now. Hellion, not many rounds, but no initial issues yet. I appreciate your service paying that early adopter tax. Side note, I just saw that the VHS and X95 both were designed and entered service at the same time. I wonder what the production numbers of each were. |
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In the 9 hole video on the hellion I believe they said HS Produkt made 100,000 to date Vhs-2 rifles. IWI us celebrated 50,000 Tavors sold in the US in 2016, but outside of that it would be a guess. You could probably look at import data for rifles from Springfield armory for a guess of VHS-2 rifles. IWI would be more challenging as I know some receivers are made in the US using a subcontractor, but all Galil Aces are all imported as pistols, so for some years could assume rifles are Tavors. |
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Originally Posted By Odinforever2000: The AUG is a great military rifle, but that doesn't automatically make it a great civilian rifle. For a civilian shooter in 2026, it's pretty dated unless you're happy leaving it mostly stock. The trigger is still mediocre compared to a decent AR I've heard this constantly over the years as some huge negative about the AUG. And yet I am regularly out shooting people at my range with fully tricked out ARs. Even with the "horrible" trigger, non-freefloated barrel, and 1.5x optic 
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Originally Posted By mcantu: I've heard this constantly over the years as some huge negative about the AUG. And yet I am regularly out shooting people at my range with fully tricked out ARs. Even with the "horrible" trigger, non-freefloated barrel, and 1.5x optic Eh thats fair. I also out shoot people at my range with my Semi tricked out Rdb  ...but that's a statement about the shooter, not the rifle. A good shooter can outshoot people with almost anything. My point was that compared to a modern AR, the AUG is still giving up a better trigger, modularity, and ergonomics. Those drawbacks don't disappear just because someone shoots it well. |
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Originally Posted By Odinforever2000: Eh thats fair. I also out shoot people at my range with my Semi tricked out Rdb ...but that's a statement about the shooter, not the rifle. A good shooter can outshoot people with almost anything. My point was that compared to a modern AR, the AUG is still giving up a better trigger, modularity, and ergonomics. Those drawbacks don't disappear just because someone shoots it well. Originally Posted By Odinforever2000: Originally Posted By mcantu: I've heard this constantly over the years as some huge negative about the AUG. And yet I am regularly out shooting people at my range with fully tricked out ARs. Even with the "horrible" trigger, non-freefloated barrel, and 1.5x optic Eh thats fair. I also out shoot people at my range with my Semi tricked out Rdb ...but that's a statement about the shooter, not the rifle. A good shooter can outshoot people with almost anything. My point was that compared to a modern AR, the AUG is still giving up a better trigger, modularity, and ergonomics. Those drawbacks don't disappear just because someone shoots it well. While you can do more with an AR, the AUG does have a few nifty features, along with being a bullpup. QD barrels and an FRT make it the best IAR option on the market, bar none. The main issues are just setting it up with modern accoutrements, the A3M2 with an expensive aftermarket rail is a necessity to set it up the same way you would an AR. You really need a longer rail to use an LPVO if you want NV capabilities. Otherwise, you have to either build around its limitations, or for them. 4X32 ACOG, sling mount, and 4 function laser all fit on an A3M1's top rail without issues, with the switch going on the side rail. Pair with an aftermarket charging handle for convenience, and it's a very compact, full featured rifle that balances very well, without giving up on ballistic performance. Set up this way, its only remaining annoyance is that the stock is fairly tall and chunky, so it's great without armor, but doesn't fit very well with SAPI cut plates. Swimmer's cut is less awkward, so that may be a consideration. |
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Originally Posted By rb889: While you can do more with an AR, the AUG does have a few nifty features, along with being a bullpup. QD barrels and an FRT make it the best IAR option on the market, bar none. The main issues are just setting it up with modern accoutrements, the A3M2 with an expensive aftermarket rail is a necessity to set it up the same way you would an AR. You really need a longer rail to use an LPVO if you want NV capabilities. Otherwise, you have to either build around its limitations, or for them. 4X32 ACOG, sling mount, and 4 function laser all fit on an A3M1's top rail without issues, with the switch going on the side rail. Pair with an aftermarket charging handle for convenience, and it's a very compact, full featured rifle that balances very well, without giving up on ballistic performance. Set up this way, its only remaining annoyance is that the stock is fairly tall and chunky, so it's great without armor, but doesn't fit very well with SAPI cut plates. Swimmer's cut is less awkward, so that may be a consideration. Id have to respectfully disagree with that. For what you would have in a AUG IAR setup with extra barrels and FRT one could have possibly 3 or 4 ARs built out as a IAR setup for the same money. Price breakdown AUG $1699 Barrel 556 $299 *base With bipod 24" HBAR $699 AUG FRT $525 EDIT: Thats based off a financial constraint not a mechanical so guess I can see your point. |
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Originally Posted By swampfoxoutdoors: Id have to respectfully disagree with that. For what you would have in a AUG IAR setup with extra barrels and FRT one could have possibly 3 or 4 ARs built out as a IAR setup for the same money. Price breakdown AUG $1699 Barrel 556 $299 *base With bipod 24" HBAR $699 AUG FRT $525 EDIT: Thats based off a financial constraint not a mechanical so guess I can see your point. Cool, but I didn't get into this hobby because I wanted to save money. Sure if you want the cheapest thing go with an AR15. A collection built upon the cheapest things you can buy is a miserable collection. I, and imagine others, are happy to spend money to get different things we like. |
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Originally Posted By rb889: While you can do more with an AR, the AUG does have a few nifty features, along with being a bullpup. QD barrels and an FRT make it the best IAR option on the market, bar none. The main issues are just setting it up with modern accoutrements, the A3M2 with an expensive aftermarket rail is a necessity to set it up the same way you would an AR. You really need a longer rail to use an LPVO if you want NV capabilities. Otherwise, you have to either build around its limitations, or for them. 4X32 ACOG, sling mount, and 4 function laser all fit on an A3M1's top rail without issues, with the switch going on the side rail. Pair with an aftermarket charging handle for convenience, and it's a very compact, full featured rifle that balances very well, without giving up on ballistic performance. Set up this way, its only remaining annoyance is that the stock is fairly tall and chunky, so it's great without armor, but doesn't fit very well with SAPI cut plates. Swimmer's cut is less awkward, so that may be a consideration. I feel like what makes a good IAR is kind of mushy. The most popular is the M27, with maybe the RPK 74 qualifying. Neither of those have QD replaceable barrels. The Aug has an LMG variant that did the role of sustained suppression fire, but it probably did that poorly due to magazine size and not being able to take drum magazines due to bullpup. So maybe the Aug LMG function would be reclassified as an IAR today? QD barrels in the field are a machine gunner thing for heat management which the IAR isn't designed to fulfill or even need (Did anyone issue the Aug LMG gunners a spare barrel in their combat kits?). I think the only real innovation in the IAR space since the cold war is the Quattro magazine system, if that ever takes off. 53 round magazine that fits in a double mag pouch and appears to be several times more reliable than the old Tombstone ones. However IAR/suppression fire for civilian use, to me, sounds more like a way to drain a bank account than be particularly useful (see Great Emu War as example). |
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Originally Posted By FrozenIceman: QD barrels in the field are a machine gunner thing for heat management which the IAR isn't designed to fulfill or even need (Did anyone issue the Aug LMG gunners a spare barrel in their combat kits?). EDIT: After further research, I now know Austria only tested the AUG LMG in a field trial and never adopted it. Another factor hurting the AUG for IAR/LMG use is the lack of available chrome lined barrels for it in the U.S. I got one of the FN 24” barrels with the Ratworx/Manticore bipod back in 2017 and it’s chrome lined, but subsequent production for the U.S. market is not. In every other country they ship with Austrian CHF chrome lined barrels. This goes to show that, although you might select a firearm model based upon its military pedigree, the actual product offered in your nation may have significant differences. The U.S. made stocks that were breaking would be another example. That may be resolved now, but Steyr never even made any official statement regarding the situation. It does shoot very smoothly with a 24” barrel and bipod though, and it’s easy to carry.  Steyr AUG HBAR firing bursts Attached File If you really don’t care about price, and want something for sustained fire, get something belt fed with multiple barrels.
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What Bullpups are as reliable or more reliable than a mid-level AR15? For HD/SHTF? Is it.... (Page 1 of 2)
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