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Posted: 1/7/2012 10:03:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: AeroE][Edited]
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Over the holidays, I got motivated and built a wet tumbler. As of yet, I do not have SS media - it'll arrive next week - so I'm just tumbling in a PVC pipe with a reducer and rubber cap. The container does not have lifter bars inside. To the water I'm adding a little Dawn dish washing liquid and a little Lemishine. I run them for around 2 to 2-1/2 hours.
The 223 cases are coming out looking great. The 9mm cases are coming out dark - I've even tumbled them a 2nd time. The first time I did this coffee can full of them I split them into two loads and they came out a little dark. I thought I had put too many cases in the tumbler and they weren't moving a whole lot with no lifter bars, so I did them all again but this time in 3 loads. Now they're even darker. Clean & smooth, but dark. Anybody seen this before? What's causing it? Title edited and archive toggle set. AeroE |
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You may have gotten away with no lift bars with the longer 223 cases, but the 9mm are just laying on the bottom of the drum and not tumbling.
Get some SS media and install the lift bars, that should cure your problem. My wet tumbled 9mm come out brilliant. 
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You'll need to thoroughly rinse the cases after tumbling to stop the acid. Otherwise, the cases will corrode again. That includes cases that come out bright at the end of tumbling.
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Originally Posted By AeroE:
You'll need to thoroughly rinse the cases after tumbling to stop the acid. Otherwise, the cases will corrode again. That includes cases that come out bright at the end of tumbling. Good point. Rinse in cold water, towel dry outside of case to prevent water spots. Set cases aside to dry inside. |
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I thought I was rinsing them well enough - 6 or 7 times in the tumbler before I poured them out. I'm doing the same thing with the 223s and they are staying shiny.
One difference between the 223 and 9mm is the 223s have the primer removed, the 9mms don't. Could that be an issue? After rinsing and pouring them out into a cake pan, both are being dried in the oven at 215F for15 to 20 minutes. |
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Originally Posted By TripletDad:
I thought I was rinsing them well enough - 6 or 7 times in the tumbler before I poured them out. I'm doing the same thing with the 223s and they are staying shiny. One difference between the 223 and 9mm is the 223s have the primer removed, the 9mms don't. Could that be an issue? After rinsing and pouring them out into a cake pan, both are being dried in the oven at 215F for15 to 20 minutes. Yes, leaving the primers in is an issue. The acid solution is trapped in the primer pocket. |
Remember Braydon Nichols and his Dad, Chinook Pilot CWO Bryan Nichols, KIA in Afghanistan 6 August 2011
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Originally Posted By AeroE:
Yes, leaving the primers in is an issue. The acid solution is trapped in the primer pocket. Well, that takes the fun out of it. In the interest of science, I'll deprime a coffee can full and see if that makes a difference. The batch I just re-ran with primer in, Lemishine & NO Dawn is in the oven now. I rinsed those 5 times in the tumbler and 4 more times in the cake pan. We'll see how those turn out. Looked pretty good going in. |
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What kind or brand of brass is it?
I've washed brass cases and had them come out grey, they were brass washed steel. 
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Its the guy that just walks in and just starts shooting.
Its the guy that just walks in and just starts shooting.
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Originally Posted By WI57:
What kind or brand of brass is it? Mostly Winchester, but there are random cases in there from the range. There were one or two brass washed steel cases in there - they were obvious when they came out. Done depriming a coffee can full, off to the tumbler. Update in around 3 hours. |
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Originally Posted By TripletDad:
Originally Posted By WI57:
What kind or brand of brass is it? Mostly Winchester, but there are random cases in there from the range. There were one or two brass washed steel cases in there - they were obvious when they came out. Done depriming a coffee can full, off to the tumbler. Update in around 3 hours. Let us know. Maybe the coating from the steel cases caused the brass ones to turn colors. Keep us posted. 
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Its not the guy that walks in with a gun and says he is going to start shooting that you have to worry about.
Its the guy that just walks in and just starts shooting.
Its the guy that just walks in and just starts shooting.
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Keep an eye out for some S&B cases that are steel with the brass wash... other than using a magnet, I was not able to distinguish them from real brass cases...
The lemishine will remove some of the brass and it left a lot of my other brass with a purplish stain... 
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Originally Posted By TripletDad: Originally Posted By WI57: What kind or brand of brass is it? Mostly Winchester, but there are random cases in there from the range. There were one or two brass washed steel cases in there - they were obvious when they came out. Done depriming a coffee can full, off to the tumbler. Update in around 3 hours. I think this is your problem. If you have steel cases mixed in, their oxidation can get out into the water and stain the brass cases. Take the steel cases out and try again. |
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I think Buck hit it on the head a couple of posts up. His bottom picture of the purple brass looks just like mine. It wasn't that bad when it first came out of the tumbler, but oxidized to that shade pretty quickly. And I know I pulled out a steel case or two.
Tumbling with the primers did help - although having the steel cases out of the tumbler had a lot to do with it. There's still some purple left in places, but it's a lot better than it was. Made a trip to Lowe's to get the stuff to make another barrel, but won't be able to finish it until at least Monday. I couldn't find anything that would suit me for lifters in a 4" pvc pipe. I don't want to drill and bolt through the pipe. We have some flat 1/4" delrin and/or nylon at the plant and I'll nab some out of the scrap bin Monday night and make interlocking lifters that will hopefully wedge and glue into the new barrel. The SS media should be arriving mid week, so I'll run all the purple brass again then and update the report. The SS ought to get rid of all the purple. I'm also going to run a batch with the primers still in, but dump the acidic water, add fresh water with a little bit of baking soda to neutralize any remaining acid and tumble for another 10-20 minutes before the final rinsing. I really don't want to have to deprime pistol brass before I tumble. I'll also post the results of that experiment. |
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Originally Posted By TripletDad:
I thought I was rinsing them well enough - 6 or 7 times in the tumbler before I poured them out. I'm doing the same thing with the 223s and they are staying shiny. One difference between the 223 and 9mm is the 223s have the primer removed, the 9mms don't. Could that be an issue? . I didn't deprime at first, then learned the advantages of depriming. After rinsing and pouring them out into a cake pan, both are being dried in the oven at 215F for15 to 20 minutes. |
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No, they cleaned up some, but I'm going to rerun them again as soon as I get the new barrel with lifters made and the SS media comes in. It's still doing a good job with the .223 brass.
I'd recommend everyone to make sure steel cases are out of cleaning batches - once they stain the brass, it's a pain to get off. So far my test pieces of brass in the baking soda solution are not changing funny colors. I put as much baking soda in 4oz of water that I'd put in the entire tumble barrel and after 7 hours, no noticeable color changes. I kept the solution hot for the first hour by microwaving every so often. The only reason for this is to run pistol brass without depriming and still neutralize the left over acid in the primer cups. Any chemist out there know of an adverse reaction to baking soda and brass? Here's a pic of my attempt at a tumbler - it is running in the picture (excuse for the blur) 
The two threaded rods at the top are to keep the two sides from spreading. I'll have to figure something different if I decide to make a 6" barrel. The two support bars are 1/2" aluminum with a piece of vinyl tubing over the full length to add friction. The 4 bearings fit into a drilled inch and something hole that goes about 1/2 way through the wood. The rod with the large pulley on it goes all the way through, but half of it is only 3/4" to let the rod come through and still keep the bearing in place. As long as the sides don't spread, the bearings can't walk out. It's a 4" cap, 4" tubing, 4" to 3" reducer, a short piece of 3" tubing with a 3" rubber cap. Holds ~260 .223 cases without media. (edit: that's filled up with brass to the 3" start in the reducer. I've leaving around 3" of space above that - the entire 3" diameter portion of the barrel) The barrel rotates around 65rpm. That's just by eyeball, I've not gotten out a stop watch to time it. Everything except the motor (Harbor Freight) and pulleys (Grainger or McMaster Carr, can't remember) came from Lowe's and stuff I had in the basement. My only regret is I made it two short - because I bought 1 half inch rod and sawed pretty close in half (the pulley rod is 4" longer than the other rod). If I decide to make another one, the next will have pillow block bearings on top of the wood from Northern Tools instead of mounting open bearings in the wood. If I remember correctly, they have some 3/4" pillow block bearings that are ~$7 each. |
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Originally Posted By TripletDad:
No, they cleaned up some, but I'm going to rerun them again as soon as I get the new barrel with lifters made and the SS media comes in. It's still doing a good job with the .223 brass. I'd recommend everyone to make sure steel cases are out of cleaning batches - once they stain the brass, it's a pain to get off. So far my test pieces of brass in the baking soda solution are not changing funny colors. I put as much baking soda in 4oz of water that I'd put in the entire tumble barrel and after 7 hours, no noticeable color changes. I kept the solution hot for the first hour by microwaving every so often. The only reason for this is to run pistol brass without depriming and still neutralize the left over acid in the primer cups. Any chemist out there know of an adverse reaction to baking soda and brass? Here's a pic of my attempt at a tumbler - it is running in the picture (excuse for the blur) http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/eightinchfangs/ar15/DSC02871_small.jpg The two threaded rods at the top are to keep the two sides from spreading. I'll have to figure something different if I decide to make a 6" barrel. The two support bars are 1/2" aluminum with a piece of vinyl tubing over the full length to add friction. The 4 bearings fit into a drilled inch and something hole that goes about 1/2 way through the wood. The rod with the large pulley on it goes all the way through, but half of it is only 3/4" to let the rod come through and still keep the bearing in place. As long as the sides don't spread, the bearings can't walk out. It's a 4" cap, 4" tubing, 4" to 3" reducer, a short piece of 3" tubing with a 3" rubber cap. Holds ~260 .223 cases without media. (edit: that's filled up with brass to the 3" start in the reducer. I've leaving around 3" of space above that - the entire 3" diameter portion of the barrel) The barrel rotates around 65rpm. That's just by eyeball, I've not gotten out a stop watch to time it. Everything except the motor (Harbor Freight) and pulleys (Grainger or McMaster Carr, can't remember) came from Lowe's and stuff I had in the basement. My only regret is I made it two short - because I bought 1 half inch rod and sawed pretty close in half (the pulley rod is 4" longer than the other rod). If I decide to make another one, the next will have pillow block bearings on top of the wood from Northern Tools instead of mounting open bearings in the wood. If I remember correctly, they have some 3/4" pillow block bearings that are ~$7 each. For those who might want to build something simular, what is you motor RPM? 1750? Also the size of the sheaves (pullys)? Looks like a 2 inch on motor? Maybe 8 inch on shaft? |
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Just got the latest batch out of the tumbler and dry. These are cases that haven't been wet tumbled before and not part of the 'purple' batch.
That's how they're supposed to look. Tumbled with the primer in and I didn't use a baking soda rinse at the end. I'm still letting my test cases soak in the baking soda solution. They still look fine, but the solution now has a very, very slight blue tint. Copper going into solution? The SS media came today. Had a couple of handfuls in the tumbler. I still haven't gotten around to making a new barrel with lifters. Ran it full - up to the 3" portion of the barrel. Bought a large magnet today at Harbor Freight and went through all my 9mm cases. No more steel found. Figures the only two I had would end up in the first batch and turn it purple. |
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Originally Posted By TripletDad:
Just got the latest batch out of the tumbler and dry. These are cases that haven't been wet tumbled before and not part of the 'purple' batch. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/eightinchfangs/ar15/DSC02872_small.jpg That's how they're supposed to look. Tumbled with the primer in and I didn't use a baking soda rinse at the end. I'm still letting my test cases soak in the baking soda solution. They still look fine, but the solution now has a very, very slight blue tint. Copper going into solution? The SS media came today. Had a couple of handfuls in the tumbler. I still haven't gotten around to making a new barrel with lifters. Ran it full - up to the 3" portion of the barrel. Bought a large magnet today at Harbor Freight and went through all my 9mm cases. No more steel found. Figures the only two I had would end up in the first batch and turn it purple. Nice tumbler. Whats the total on the materials. Thanks! |
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Originally Posted By TripletDad:
Just got the latest batch out of the tumbler and dry. These are cases that haven't been wet tumbled before and not part of the 'purple' batch. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/eightinchfangs/ar15/DSC02872_small.jpg That's how they're supposed to look. Tumbled with the primer in and I didn't use a baking soda rinse at the end. I'm still letting my test cases soak in the baking soda solution. They still look fine, but the solution now has a very, very slight blue tint. Copper going into solution? The SS media came today. Had a couple of handfuls in the tumbler. I still haven't gotten around to making a new barrel with lifters. Ran it full - up to the 3" portion of the barrel. Bought a large magnet today at Harbor Freight and went through all my 9mm cases. No more steel found. Figures the only two I had would end up in the first batch and turn it purple. Much better results there. 
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I'll find the part numbers and prices tomorrow. Life has been interfering with my hobby + my 300 AAC Blackout dies arrived today.
Here's an after and before picture of the dark brass. 
On the left of the ingots is the after picture. They started out of the same batch as on the right, but I tumbled them in Dawn, Lemishine & SS Media for about an hour and a half last night, turned the barrel top up around midnight last night, left the brass sitting in the solution around 20 hours before I tumbled them again for another hour and a half tonight. They're still wet, they're in the oven drying as I post this. On the right is some of the dark brass caused by the brass washed steel cases. These are not as bad looking as when I first screwed them up. These have already been tumbled a bit one night, left in the solution overnight until the next evening, then tumbled some more. I did not have the SS media yet. These were after the first attempt to fix my mistake, not the mistake in all its purple glory. These cases are now in the tumbler and will sit in solution tonight and I'll finish them tomorrow. Tumble barrel still has no lifters for either side. The cases I have in the baking soda solution still look fine. I don't think the solution has gotten any bluer than it was last night. I did have to add a little water to it due to evaporation. I'll keep reporting on this, but I don't think it's a necessary step when wet tumbling with the primer still in. The brass from the last two batches - a non-purple batch posted above and tonight's batch fixing the purple are not darkening during drying. |
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I ran into a problem like this last night/this morning. It started off when I wet tumbled some cases with Dillon case lube on them. First mistake. I ran them again last night and left them in the tumbler overnight. This morning they are dark, with a purplish/rainbow tint to them. I'm wondering if I run them again if they'll turn out right? |
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The soap should wash the lube off the cases. If the cases feel slick, wash them in hot water and soap with plenty of agitation, then rinse well in cold water. Then go back into the rotary tumbler with Lemishine, dish soap, and pins.
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Originally Posted By grimhollow: I ran into a problem like this last night/this morning. It started off when I wet tumbled some cases with Dillon case lube on them. First mistake. I ran them again last night and left them in the tumbler overnight. This morning they are dark, with a purplish/rainbow tint to them. I'm wondering if I run them again if they'll turn out right? When I tumble a friends brass that had lube on them, I increase the Dawn I'm using 50%. They come out fine. |
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Anytime you have a problem with your wet tumbling it is almost always a problem with the amount of lemishine you use.
I use 1 tsp of lemishine per gallon of hot water and my color is perfect every time, no surprises. Also, citric acid will passivate brass, so rinsing with pure water is actually a bad thing... I always rinse with pure water, then dip in a mixture of just lemishine and water and let them sit for a few minutes. Then I dry them off by hand as much as possible and let them sit under a fan to dry (don't put them in the oven). Doing this, the citric acid will passivate the brass and prevent it from discoloring in the future. It will (of course) slowly oxidize over time, but it will be much slower than if you rinse with pure water and then dry. Citric acid is used as a water softner too, so it will react with the metal ions in your water and prevent them from leaving "water spots." If you rinse off the citric acid it will not prevent water spots anymore. Hard to argue with results: 
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I don't know where I went wrong, but it seemed to have something to do with the case lube, as it coated the inside of the drum, and the clear end caps with some kind of oily film. I tumbled some of them a second time, and they turned even darker, like a greenish brown color. Reminded me of lacquer coated steel cased ammo. I used the same amount of Lemishine as I always do. Who knows... I tumbled them a third time, and they are right now. The water that came out was a yellowish-green color, instead of the usual black/dark gray. Difference in color between the two. These are from the same batch, with the darker ones having been tumbled twice, and the lighter ones after their third time. Took a few pics to show the difference in color.    Success! After three tumblings, I got them right. I celebrated by knocking my container of SS pins off of my table onto the floor, that was fun to clean up.   |
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Originally Posted By grimhollow:
I don't know where I went wrong, but it seemed to have something to do with the case lube, as it coated the inside of the drum, and the clear end caps with some kind of oily film. I tumbled some of them a second time, and they turned even darker, like a greenish brown color. Reminded me of lacquer coated steel cased ammo. I used the same amount of Lemishine as I always do. Who knows... I tumbled them a third time, and they are right now. The water that came out was a yellowish-green color, instead of the usual black/dark gray. Difference in color between the two. These are from the same batch, with the darker ones having been tumbled twice, and the lighter ones after their third time. Took a few pics to show the difference in color. That same thing happened with some 9mm I did last week. The primer pockets were still a little dirty after the first run, so I ran them again for 2 hours. They all wound up that weird brown color. I didn't try a third time to see if they'd clean up though. |
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You can make lift bars from a 1" piece of PVC pipe. Split it along its length. To avoid using any screw or bolts to secure it just use JB Weld. I have two drums that are about a year old one with screwed lifter bars and one with JB Weld bars. Both perform exactly alike. The JB Weld does not discolor the brass at all.
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I might be a little late on this one, but as someone pointed out above, case lube!
I use lanolin oil & 99% alcohol for case lube, the very same stuff that people brewed up on some thread here on these forums. I noticed that when started tumbling these rifle cases they were not getting as clean, and in turn my pistol cases I was running were slightly dark in color. My pins have run about 15k pieces of brass, some with case lube, some with out. First thing I did was filled the drum half full of water, added alot of soap and some Simple Green. Ran this for an hour. The water came out pretty funky, which surprised me, being that I rinse my pins thoroughly after every run. I have also started to add more Dawn to the tumbler thats running sized brass with case lube on it. This seemed to fix the issue with dark rifle brass. |
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Small FART, which still has moly remnants. 60% full of 5.56. 5000 2mm SS balls. One second squirt of Dawn. I tapped Lemishine in - probably more than a .45 ACP worth, which I think is the main culprit. Water up to top of brass. 3 hours. Anything other suggestions besides scrubbing the drum and use more soap/less Lemishine? Same brass, different lighting. Attached File Attached File |
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Originally Posted By HighpowerRifleBrony: Small FART, which still has moly remnants. 60% full of 5.56. 5000 2mm SS balls. One second squirt of Dawn. I tapped Lemishine in - probably more than a .45 ACP worth, which I think is the main culprit. Water up to top of brass. 3 hours. Anything other suggestions besides scrubbing the drum and use more soap/less Lemishine? Same brass, different lighting. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/379478/20240408_122320_jpg-3182379.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/379478/20240408_122401_jpg-3182380.JPG It's happened to me, I ran tumbler with normal water, Lemishine, pins, and Dawn (no cases) until water that was dumped out after several hours was clean. You should see water come out cleaner each cycle if it's bad. With me it was doing a buddy a favor tumbling his sized, lubed cases that sat for months. They were a mess, lube and dust stuck together. Those were the last cases I tumbled for him. Took one cleaning cycle for me to clean out my wet tumbler. |
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Originally Posted By DDRanch: After several runs of cleaning brass with Dawn/Pins I get a build up of junk sticking to my pins, wioth the brass clean but dull finish I do a cleaning with just water and Simple Green for about 2 hours, rinse and I'm back in business. |
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Originally Posted By DDRanch: Yep!  What works best for lube removal is corn cob. You can see in the pic the corn cob is 14-20 grit and will flow through flashole and not have to be picked out, unlike the stuff sold as tumbling media. https://www.zoro.com/zoro-select-blast-media-corn-cob-14-to-20-grit-crn2-40/i/G1695775/ One link to corn cob. McMaster Carr, and other places carry it also.  Just get a dry tumbler or two for lube removal. Before I quit using a wet tumbler for lube removal, I doubled the amount of Dawn, same amount of Lemishine. It got brass clean, not bling, and tumbler had to be run empty of brass (normal water Dawn, Lemishine) to clean out afterwards. Not worth it to me, dry tumbler removes lube in an hour or two, and no drying cases. |
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| I process alot of rifle brass for myself and friends plus I also convert alot of 223 to 300 Black Out. I dry tumble range brass before I size/trim on my Dillon Super 1050. My final step is to clean with stainless pins, this deburs the trimmed ends plus removes the lube. The problemI see for me de-lubing with corncob is plugged flash holes |
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Originally Posted By DDRanch: I process alot of rifle brass for myself and friends plus I also convert alot of 223 to 300 Black Out. I dry tumble range brass before I size/trim on my Dillon Super 1050. My final step is to clean with stainless pins, this deburs the trimmed ends plus removes the lube. The problemI see for me de-lubing with corncob is plugged flash holes Corn cob sold for tumbling is too large, as you know. This stuff is for tumbling without the primer removed, as in pre wet tumbling days. Look at my previous post with grit size and link where to get proper grit size. Post #41 to be exact. |
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Originally Posted By dryflash3: That is why you want to use the correct size grit of corn cob. Corn cob sold for tumbling is too large, as you know. This stuff is for tumbling without the primer removed, as in pre wet tumbling days. Look at my previous post with grit size and link where to get proper grit size. Post #41 to be exact. Have had even the fine grit stick in flash holes, so I play it safe |
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I gave the drum a couple cycles with just media, Dawn, and water. That made the drum walls a lot lighter shade of gray. I gave the same batch of brass another 4 hour cycle with more Dawn, a pinch of Lemishine, and filled with water to just below the brass. I don't know if one or all did the trick, but they came out shiny. I'm waiting for them to dry in the dehydrator before taking photos. |
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Originally Posted By HighpowerRifleBrony: I gave the drum a couple cycles with just media, Dawn, and water. That made the drum walls a lot lighter shade of gray. I gave the same batch of brass another 4 hour cycle with more Dawn, a pinch of Lemishine, and filled with water to just below the brass. I don't know if one or all did the trick, but they came out shiny. I'm waiting for them to dry in the dehydrator before taking photos. 
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Shiny, not blingy. If I want bling I'll put them in the vibratory - simpler. But I wanted to get the powder chamber clean. Attached File |
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