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Posted: 9/13/2024 5:23:15 PM EDT
| Simply would like to know if various black powders and black powder substitutes give similar velocities at the same load levels. I.E. Is 100grs of triple 7 the same as 100grs of RS or 100grs BH209? How does real BP measure? I know there will be variations from shot to shot but are there any reasonable conversion factors? |
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Originally Posted By GaryM: Simply would like to know if various black powders and black powder substitutes give similar velocities at the same load levels. I.E. Is 100grs of triple 7 the same as 100grs of RS or 100grs BH209? How does real BP measure? I know there will be variations from shot to shot but are there any reasonable conversion factors? This is a lot bigger question to answer than you realize. I'll try to break it up as best I can and include both my own testing, and some other published testing. I'll start with the question on the conversion factors. All powders meant for muzzleloaders are built around real blackpowder. There is a relatively set standard for blackpowder density such that when you measure using a VOLUME measure set to say 100 grains, when you dump that on a powder scale, the actual weight will be very close to 100 grains. This does not include home made powder that does not meet the standard, but it is possible to make your own powder that is the same density as factory powder. The grade, FFg, FFFg, etc. doesn't have a huge difference. Obviously there is some variation, maybe your particular volume measure drops closer to 106 grains or whatever, but it should be fairly close. Continuing with that thinking, when we are talking about substitutes such as Pyrodex, 777, BH209, and so on, they ARE ONLY SUBSITUTES BY VOLUME. I'm not yelling, I just want that point to be clear because so many miss it. When people talk about "100 grains of Pyrodex", what they really mean is they set their volume measure to 100. It will not weigh 100 grains. There are some conversions, but powders can vary quite a bit lot to lot, so it's not perfect. A lot of people weigh all their charges with BH209, so it isn't uncommon. The best thing is to measure by volume, drop on a scale, and if you wish to weigh your charges, use that weight. When it comes to velocity and pressure, all these powders can vary, even blackpowder varies. You can find actual pressure data in the Lyman blackpowder handbook and loading manual. Generally substitutes are made such that they can replace real blackpowder 1:1 for VOLUME and approximate the same pressures, or at least be safe for use. This is true for Pyrodex and 777, however they can vary, and they come in different grades. Pyrodex P will perform differently than Pyrodex RS. 777 can be had in at least FFg and FFFg grades. The same is true of blackpowders. Goex will perform differently than Swiss brands all else equal. Even Goex Olde Eyensford will perform differently than Goex original all else equal. Even different grades such as Goex original FFg will perform differently than Goex original FFFg. We are not talking monumental differences, but not insignificant differences. The outlier is Blackhorn 209, which is not a true substitute. It doesn't really work in traditional side lock muzzleloaders, and it can't always be substituted 1:1. I have not seen good pressure data, but it seems BH209 produces higher pressures than most other powders. As such, maximum loads may vary. Rifles that can normally handle 150gr of blackpowder or substututes such as 777, usually say not to use more than 120 of BH209. Some modern rifles are built just for BH209, so that's not always the case. Pellets is a whole other ballgame too, but that's for another day. I will link some data below. Again, both velocity and pressure data can be found in the Lyman manual. https://thebiggamehuntingblog.com/blackhorn-209-vs-777-vs-goex-black-powder/  Here is a simple test I did with my 10 gauge SXS muzzleloader, with a standard equal volume load of 100 gr (volume) powder, and 100 gr (volume) of Lawrence #5 shot. Wadding was my .050" card wads, three over the powder, and one over the shot. The results are below. Goex red can Fg : 879 fps Goex Olde E Fg : 950 fps Swiss Fg : 1180 fps You can get pretty deep into this subject if you want. |
| Sounds like it. I guess I will just try different types and loads and see what happens. Just want something good enough to hunt with. CVA Wolf V2 with BH209 plug firing 265gr cast .451 FN out of MMP sabots. Figure to start at 100gr and work my way up. RS and Triple 7. Need to dig up a chronograph too. |
If you think I am sexy now just wait until you find out I have full medical and dental.
Personal pronouns are kiushgvlakjbnoiuvb/nxunefu ewdf/lkujghfoiuanxy;ople
Personal pronouns are kiushgvlakjbnoiuvb/nxunefu ewdf/lkujghfoiuanxy;ople
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Originally Posted By GaryM: Sounds like it. I guess I will just try different types and loads and see what happens. Just want something good enough to hunt with. CVA Wolf V2 with BH209 plug firing 265gr cast .451 FN out of MMP sabots. Figure to start at 100gr and work my way up. RS and Triple 7. Need to dig up a chronograph too. Here is some velocity data that should be close to what you are shooting. You for sure do not want to exceed 120gr volume of BH209 in that rifle. 100gr is a pretty stout load, lot of people use that for hunting. https://hodgdonreloading.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/MZ-MANUAL-23-4-copy2.pdf |
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