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Thompsons are a bargain MG right now. (Page 3 of 3)
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im going against the grain here. Ive shot plenty of thompsons over the years. I cant stand them. for about 30 seconds, yep first time pull. after that, they are not that great. I do value the design for the time period, but it was surpassed by many. I value the stens and the sterlings over the thompson. also the mp40 and 41 over it. yes i have shot them all. to be honest the grease gun was better. |
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Originally Posted By sleestakwhisperer: And what about Captain Kirk and Spock https://www.imfdb.org/images/3/38/Pieceoftheaction_doubleTommy.jpg Or Booth and Bones: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGWqhQJjxCI |
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Originally Posted By handym3000: im going against the grain here. Ive shot plenty of thompsons over the years. I cant stand them. for about 30 seconds, yep first time pull. after that, they are not that great. I do value the design for the time period, but it was surpassed by many. I value the stens and the sterlings over the thompson. also the mp40 and 41 over it. yes i have shot them all. to be honest the grease gun was better. This wasn't really intended to be thread about the merits of Thompsons. I was just making the observation that IF you DO want a Thompson, then it appears that this is a good time to buy one. The prices seem to be soft relatively speaking, and they probably won't stay that way. What people like or don't like is subjective, so there is literally no point in debating it. It would be like debating over whether fried chicken is better than steak. Guns DO have objective qualities, however. For example, it is an indisputable fact that pre-1945 Thompsons are very reliable and durable. They have a good supply of high-quality replacement parts and they need zero dicking with to make them run good. They have a gigantic feed ramp and almost never jam. They are easy to shoot well and are accurate. They are appealing to collectors because they are an iconic design with a colorful history. One the negative side, they are expensive, heavy, and some short people struggle with the long buttstock. The stick mags are made of thin steel and you can damage them if you drop them while full of ammo. The ammo is kind of pricey, but easy and cheap to reload. I suspect that most of the other "specific" criticisms of the gun are internet blah blah, from people who never shot one. They don't have the ring of truth. Like the "bad ergonomics" thing. What exactly did they try to ergonom-o-gize and fail at? Had to lay the gun on the ground to push the thumb mag release? Needed a diagram to pull the bolt back? I have shot a lot of MGs as well. I would say that my favorites are the UZI and M1A1 Thompson. Which is kind of weird, because they are pretty opposite of each other. I was very surprised at how nice the M3 grease gun shot. It's a very agreeable gun. Never shot a STEN yet. |
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If a TV or movie director can figure out how to squeeze a Thompson in, it's going in. I wish I could get my reloads to make that giant muzzle flash. But it's hard to get 5 grains or so of power to come fire-balling out of the end of a 10 inch barrel, no matter how slow it burns. |
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| Over the past week or so I've been looking into Thompson's, particularly on current pricing. It seems like there is a lot of variation in pricing. I am particularly looking at West Hurley's and maybe GI Savages. The odd thing is, it seems like there is no shortage of West Hurley's in the low to mid 20 range. They were high teens 6 months ago. Can a GI Thompson be had in the 25K range? If so, isn't that the obvious best course of action in that price range? |
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Originally Posted By rssc: Over the past week or so I've been looking into Thompson's, particularly on current pricing. It seems like there is a lot of variation in pricing. I am particularly looking at West Hurley's and maybe GI Savages. The odd thing is, it seems like there is no shortage of West Hurley's in the low to mid 20 range. They were high teens 6 months ago. Can a GI Thompson be had in the 25K range? If so, isn't that the obvious best course of action in that price range? Sometimes the entire national supply of pre-1945 Thompson will dry up for a month or so, but there is ALWAYS a supply of WHs for sale. Probably because they don't run. WHs are knock-offs that were made by small machine shops without blueprints in the 1970s. They sometimes do run good, they can be gunsmithed and part-swapped to run good, but no matter what, make sure you see it run before you buy it. Thompsons are extremely reliable, they just run and run. If a Thompson doesn't run, it's either broken or a WH. Yes, you can find nice minty arsenal-rebuilt USGI 1928s, 1928A1s, M1s and M1A1s in the $25k range. Probably more like $25k to $30k. Given that WHs are selling in the low 20s, it seems a no-brainer to buy a USGI gun. The USGI guns are made to blueprint and run great. Make sure the gun is not a re-weld. Some of the Thompsons out there are two USGI receiver halves welded together, you can spot them by the line of bubbles and flaws in the sucktastical welds. |
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Originally Posted By MGVINCE: I would stay away from West Hurleys. Some of the prices may seem tempting, but they can be full of problems. Look for a USGI gun. I think that the reason that WH prices are even as high as they are is because they look beautiful and the newbies don't seem to realize they are knock-offs with no collector value beyond their value as "shooters." They do actually look really nice. Reuben always has a half dozen for sale at nosebleed prices and they keep selling. |
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The Tommy gun is long on fun and short on versatility. I'd rather have an MP5 in 9mm for all around cool, M16 for versatility, MAC for relative affordability. That said I'd buy a Tommy before I bought anything in belt-fed. To me they scratch a lot of the same itch, especially if you have limited distance on your range. Main difference being you are likely to have thousands and thousands of trouble free rounds on a USGI Tommy. |
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I would generally agree that its better to buy a WW2 manufacturer produced 1928 (Savage or Bridgeport) over a West Hurley 1928 given there isn't a huge cost difference today. That said many of the West Hurley's cosmetically look better than the WW2 1928 guns (with many WH still being NIB) so I suspect that is part of the appeal to the uninformed buyer. The biggest issue with the 1928 West Hurley guns is that on many of the guns they didn't cut the blish lock cuts in the receiver correctly and it takes a lot of time/money to get those WH guns receivers corrected. Many of the other issues with WH guns can be resolved by swapping in all WW2 USGI 1928 internals for the poor quality 1970/80s era repro parts. If I was shopping for a WH Thompson, I would be more inclined to purchase an M1 as the receivers are much simpler as the M1s being straight blow back operation don't have blish locks cutouts in the receiver. There are still some purported dimensional issue and not as robust receiver metalurgy in the WH M1s but the WH M1s seem to run much better out of the box or with modest USGI internal parts updates vs. the more complicated 1928 WH guns. Personally I think some of the best deals on Thompsons are the Numrich Arms intact British Import 1928 /1928A1 Thompsons. AKA NAC "Suffix" Serial Guns. The reason they are priced less is because many of the NAC parts/crate guns (specifically the NAC prefix serial guns) are parts guns made in the 1940s and 50s from leftover Colt or WW2 produced material (receivers included) so they are a bit of a quality and pedigree mix-master. However Numrich Arms also imported fully intact original WW2 Savage Mfg. British Cash-Carry and/or Lend-Lease guns in the 1950s and 60s. Many buyers and dealers struggle to really tell the difference between a NAC parts/crate gun and an intact WW2 British NAC import gun with the price of the parts/crate guns pulling down the price of the original intact import guns as many don't know how to tell the difference once a gun had NAC added to the receiver. A lot of the online information on the Numrich "NAC" Thompsons guns is about the NAC prefix parts/crate guns as the story is much more interesting about building Post WW2 but pre WH Thompsons out of a mix of Colt, WW2 and new parts vs. importing intact live guns prior to the GCA off 68 which shut off imports of machineguns for commercial sale. https://smallarmsreview.com/the-nac-thompson-guns-part-1/ https://smallarmsreview.com/the-nac-thompson-guns-part-2/ In general you can get an WW2 Savage manufactured NAC import 1928 or 1928A1 for not much more than a West Hurley 1928. Midwest Tactical had a NAC import British Lend/Lease 1928A1 "US/ A1 overstamp" about a month back that was priced at $25K and had all of the USGI inspector (GEG and RLB) as well as British acceptance marks on it but didn't have a matching lower. My personal Thompson is a British cash/carry Savage manufacturer 1928 import gun with a matching upper/lower with all of the original British Woolwich Arsenal "Crown W" and "Broad Arrow" acceptance stamps as well as the Auto Ordnance WW2 "GEG" inspector markings on it. Good luck on your Thompson search. |
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Originally Posted By Middlelength: The Tommy gun is long on fun and short on versatility. I'd rather have an MP5 in 9mm for all around cool, M16 for versatility, MAC for relative affordability. That said I'd buy a Tommy before I bought anything in belt-fed. To me they scratch a lot of the same itch, especially if you have limited distance on your range. Main difference being you are likely to have thousands and thousands of trouble free rounds on a USGI Tommy. If someone wants "versatility" in an MG, they should definitely get an M16. They'll be disappointed with anything else. Some other guns have caliber conversions available, but it's nothing like an M16, which is an Erector Set of a gun. If you own an UZI, you can get a 45 upper and 45 mags and shoot 45 acp. And you can get a 22 kit that may or may not decide to work. But it's still the same gun. Most people don't even bother with the caliber conversions. The MACs have some upper options from Lage, but it's nothing even remotely close to the raging Niagara River of parts and conversions available for the M16/AR15 family. I don't think that versatility governs the buying decision for most MG owners, or else the pricing would be different. Browning BARs are $50k now and there isn't a single custom part for them. This thread wasn't for the purpose of trying to push people towards getting a Thompson. That's a matter of personal taste. I guess if I was to sum up what I wrote in this thread, it would be: 1. Thompsons prices are in a slump right now, so if you want one, get it. 2. Thompsons are a very reliable and "shootable" gun, and the negatives you hear about them are internet blah blah. One of the things that always makes me snicker a little is when battle-proven guns like the Thompson, Bren, BAR, etc are the subject of youtube videos where a guy shoots a couple of mags and then declares the gun to be good or bad. Because obviously, the opinion of a neckbeard on youtube outweighs the service record of a gun that was used at Stalingrad or Guadalcanal. |
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Originally Posted By sleestakwhisperer: This wasn't really intended to be thread about the merits of Thompsons. I was just making the observation that IF you DO want a Thompson, then it appears that this is a good time to buy one. The prices seem to be soft relatively speaking, and they probably won't stay that way. What people like or don't like is subjective, so there is literally no point in debating it. It would be like debating over whether fried chicken is better than steak. Guns DO have objective qualities, however. For example, it is an indisputable fact that pre-1945 Thompsons are very reliable and durable. They have a good supply of high-quality replacement parts and they need zero dicking with to make them run good. They have a gigantic feed ramp and almost never jam. They are easy to shoot well and are accurate. They are appealing to collectors because they are an iconic design with a colorful history. One the negative side, they are expensive, heavy, and some short people struggle with the long buttstock. The stick mags are made of thin steel and you can damage them if you drop them while full of ammo. The ammo is kind of pricey, but easy and cheap to reload. I suspect that most of the other "specific" criticisms of the gun are internet blah blah, from people who never shot one. They don't have the ring of truth. Like the "bad ergonomics" thing. What exactly did they try to ergonom-o-gize and fail at? Had to lay the gun on the ground to push the thumb mag release? Needed a diagram to pull the bolt back? I have shot a lot of MGs as well. I would say that my favorites are the UZI and M1A1 Thompson. Which is kind of weird, because they are pretty opposite of each other. I was very surprised at how nice the M3 grease gun shot. It's a very agreeable gun. Never shot a STEN yet. Originally Posted By sleestakwhisperer: Originally Posted By handym3000: im going against the grain here. Ive shot plenty of thompsons over the years. I cant stand them. for about 30 seconds, yep first time pull. after that, they are not that great. I do value the design for the time period, but it was surpassed by many. I value the stens and the sterlings over the thompson. also the mp40 and 41 over it. yes i have shot them all. to be honest the grease gun was better. This wasn't really intended to be thread about the merits of Thompsons. I was just making the observation that IF you DO want a Thompson, then it appears that this is a good time to buy one. The prices seem to be soft relatively speaking, and they probably won't stay that way. What people like or don't like is subjective, so there is literally no point in debating it. It would be like debating over whether fried chicken is better than steak. Guns DO have objective qualities, however. For example, it is an indisputable fact that pre-1945 Thompsons are very reliable and durable. They have a good supply of high-quality replacement parts and they need zero dicking with to make them run good. They have a gigantic feed ramp and almost never jam. They are easy to shoot well and are accurate. They are appealing to collectors because they are an iconic design with a colorful history. One the negative side, they are expensive, heavy, and some short people struggle with the long buttstock. The stick mags are made of thin steel and you can damage them if you drop them while full of ammo. The ammo is kind of pricey, but easy and cheap to reload. I suspect that most of the other "specific" criticisms of the gun are internet blah blah, from people who never shot one. They don't have the ring of truth. Like the "bad ergonomics" thing. What exactly did they try to ergonom-o-gize and fail at? Had to lay the gun on the ground to push the thumb mag release? Needed a diagram to pull the bolt back? I have shot a lot of MGs as well. I would say that my favorites are the UZI and M1A1 Thompson. Which is kind of weird, because they are pretty opposite of each other. I was very surprised at how nice the M3 grease gun shot. It's a very agreeable gun. Never shot a STEN yet. Was able to shoot a semi-Thompson at the National Firearms Museum many years ago. The ergonomics were terrible - as in I kept getting my big nose bopped. But a full auto is still a grail gun if I ever have that kind of money. I think it's a question of the ergonomics compared to modern guns - it's a 1st generation submachine gun, it's not going to be as comfortable to shoot as a modern gun. |
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Originally Posted By backbencher: Was able to shoot a semi-Thompson at the National Firearms Museum many years ago. The ergonomics were terrible - as in I kept getting my big nose bopped. But a full auto is still a grail gun if I ever have that kind of money. I think it's a question of the ergonomics compared to modern guns - it's a 1st generation submachine gun, it's not going to be as comfortable to shoot as a modern gun. I have to disagree with this notion. Some old guns are really comfortable to shoot and some modern guns are not. And it really depends on what the shooter is used to, and the body mechanics of the shooter. It's impossible to make one gun fit every shooter perfectly. I have an UZI and I use the wooden IMI buttstock on it because I find the collapsible buttstock VERY uncomfortable. Most people think it's fine. Most people love 1911s, but I'm really tall and I have giant hands and I hate it. On the other hand, big double-stack grips are perfect for me, the bigger, the better. Wouldn't it be kind of stubborn for me to say, "The 1911 is a 1st generation autoloader, so the ergonomics suck." Maybe it would be worthwhile to give shooting a Thompson another try, before you lay out all that money. Because your body mechanics might just be out of its "range of applicability." On the other hand, if you got one and after a while you decided that it really just doesn't fit you, you could always sell it. Also - You ever notice how they make military buttstocks kind of short? Like on the Garand? Or UZI? That's because tall shooters can scooch up and shoot a short gun OK, but short guys really, really struggle to shoot a long buttstock well. It surprises me that they left the LOP on the Thompson so long. They made 500,000 1928 Thompson models in early WWII. Then they more or less completely redesigned the gun for the M1 models and made another 1.3 million. You'd think that they would have shaved an inch off the buttstock when they made the M1, but nope, they left it long. I guess all those short guys back then were fine with it. The only actually user complaint (that I am aware of) with the Thompson was the Aussies who used the 1928s in Burma said that the endless rain and mud jammed up the blish mechanism. But that would jam up any gun. One valid criticism of the Thompson would be that it was over-designed. If you ever look over the 1921 Colt guns, you will see that every part is lovingly sculpted from billet and it's finished like a custom shop gun. It's such overkill. Gun collectors worship them for that reason, but it drove the original price to the moon. |
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Originally Posted By handym3000: im going against the grain here. Ive shot plenty of thompsons over the years. I cant stand them. for about 30 seconds, yep first time pull. after that, they are not that great. I do value the design for the time period, but it was surpassed by many. I value the stens and the sterlings over the thompson. also the mp40 and 41 over it. yes i have shot them all. to be honest the grease gun was better. I too have "shot them all" As far as practical its hard to beat the M16. Call me ancient but I LIKE the pucka pucka back and forth of a big bolt over the slick operation of an MP5 for example. I prefer an UZI over an MP5 for the fun factor. If ever sold one of the last will be a Thompson. |
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Originally Posted By rssc: Over the past week or so I've been looking into Thompson's, particularly on current pricing. It seems like there is a lot of variation in pricing. I am particularly looking at West Hurley's and maybe GI Savages. The odd thing is, it seems like there is no shortage of West Hurley's in the low to mid 20 range. They were high teens 6 months ago. Can a GI Thompson be had in the 25K range? If so, isn't that the obvious best course of action in that price range? A NIB Hurly sold at Gunspot last Thursday for 18-19K. IF you can afford it get a WW2 gun. They are "free" . Hows that ? You get all your money back and then some when you sell it. To me that's free. |
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Originally Posted By lightguy: A NIB Hurly sold at Gunspot last Thursday for 18-19K. IF you can afford it get a WW2 gun. They are "free" . Hows that ? You get all your money back and then some when you sell it. To me that's free. Thanks for the heads up. Was the sale on gunspot in an auction format or did they price it at that amount for sale? I'd love a WWIi gun but honestly I'm hoping to spend in that 18k range which puts me firmly in WH territory. That is unless I run across a hell of a deal on a WWII gun for a few grand more. A couple WH guns recently sold for high sale prices, in the low to mid 20's. Since then I now see a lot of Thompsons have hit the market, for sale. |
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Originally Posted By rssc: Thanks for the heads up. Was the sale on gunspot in an auction format or did they price it at that amount for sale? I'd love a WWIi gun but honestly I'm hoping to spend in that 18k range which puts me firmly in WH territory. That is unless I run across a hell of a deal on a WWII gun for a few grand more. A couple WH guns recently sold for high sale prices, in the low to mid 20's. Since then I now see a lot of Thompsons have hit the market, for sale. It was an auction https://www.gunspot.com/auction/16172/1928-west-hurley-thompson-machine-gun/ |
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Originally Posted By rssc: Thanks for the heads up. Was the sale on gunspot in an auction format or did they price it at that amount for sale? I'd love a WWIi gun but honestly I'm hoping to spend in that 18k range which puts me firmly in WH territory. That is unless I run across a hell of a deal on a WWII gun for a few grand more. A couple WH guns recently sold for high sale prices, in the low to mid 20's. Since then I now see a lot of Thompsons have hit the market, for sale. I don't know if you read through the whole thread, but I STRONGLY advise you to see a WH run before you buy it. They are a copy that was made without blueprints and they can be troublesome. They can also be made into good shooters. The sticking point is whether or not you need to have the receiver re-machined. Some WH start running if you just swap the guts for USGI. Some need a new barrel. Some need extensive receiver re-work. this is a great forum to get advice on WH buying: https://www.machinegunboards.com/forums/index.php?/topic/21796-looking-at-getting-into-a-west-hurley-1928-thompson/ The only time you should ever see a Thompson jamming at all is if something is broken or the mag is bent, or you got bad ammo. They run like a top. |
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Originally Posted By sleestakwhisperer: I don't know if you read through the whole thread, but I STRONGLY advise you to see a WH run before you buy it. They are a copy that was made without blueprints and they can be troublesome. They can also be made into good shooters. The sticking point is whether or not you need to have the receiver re-machined. Some WH start running if you just swap the guts for USGI. Some need a new barrel. Some need extensive receiver re-work. this is a great forum to get advice on WH buying: https://www.machinegunboards.com/forums/index.php?/topic/21796-looking-at-getting-into-a-west-hurley-1928-thompson/ The only time you should ever see a Thompson jamming at all is if something is broken or the mag is bent, or you got bad ammo. They run like a top. Thank you very much for the advice on the WH guns. It drove the point Gome that the WH guns are a buyer beware proposition. It's good to have an idea of what fixing a Thompson receiver can cost and how long it takes to line up a smith to do it. |
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Originally Posted By jbntex: It was an auction https://www.gunspot.com/auction/16172/1928-west-hurley-thompson-machine-gun/ Thx. That is probably a better indicator of market value than the various sale posts I see where they are asking in the 20's. Unless there is something about the gun that makes it worth more like spare parts or being worked over by a well known smith. |
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Originally Posted By rssc: Thx. That is probably a better indicator of market value than the various sale posts I see where they are asking in the 20's. Unless there is something about the gun that makes it worth more like spare parts or being worked over by a well known smith. Two issue with that particular gun from my point of view. 1. Its a WH that is unfired. While normally "unfired" guns command a premium, in the WH Thompson world that is a red flag vs. a gun that has been reworked, parts swapped, and has decent mileage on it to prove that its not fucked and which will require thousands in parts and potentially years in labor wait to make it right. In contrast a WH that has been shot and the ad says "Receiver has been reworked by Paul Krogh and all internals swapped with USGI parts" and now runs without issue will command a premium. 2. The other issue if you have ever bought guns from Midwest/Frank is that when it say "incoming" that means they just filed the paper Form 4 from whomever they bought it from. That is why the pictures for a 18K gun auction have it prominently displayed on the current owners celestial themed bedsheets, bathmat, and/or his toes in adidas shower slides in the background as Midwest doesn't actually have the gun in their inventory yet to take their own pictures. So you are in store for a 3 to 6 month wait for that Form 4 to be approved before it even get shipped to Midwest. They will then have to submit a Form 3 to your dealer. A lot of folks would rather buy a gun that is already in a dealers inventory and can immediately eForm 3 to their dealer. (not wait months for the Form 4 to Midwest to be approved) Those two issues also combined with not the greatest amount of traction on Franks Gunspot website (due to its not great format, challenges in getting registered, and some historically oddball bidding behavior) kept the price about ~10% lower than other sales in the low 20s. |
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I can speak up about WH since I do own one. They are great shooters without worries of damaging a very expensive Thompson. Many collectors don't really consider the WH much of a collectors item hence making it a great shooter. However WH does have a history of QC issues. Many parts you want to replace with surplus parts due to the chance of breakage and injury. Easy to do.. I would say that having original parts is hard to find making it, funny enough, a collector item to some, but never to be used. Other issues include poorly milled/out of spec receivers. Some are not milled deep enough and others not enough. I think it is more of the former than the latter. I actually have one that was milled too deep.. Which runs great but it wears out the sear which causes it to not catch when worn. These things can be fixed, and there are people out there who do still, though a lot less of the old timers are still round. You'll hear this has been checked out repaired by PK.. Great work and it will work. However if you want to have him check it out now, sadly he doesn't take news work anymore since he is retiring. There are still other gunsmiths out there that are taking the mantle. (Alex I believe). Any case don't compare a WH to a Colt.. Quality levels difference and you pay that price. You always want to get a video of it running unless you get a killer deal and risk needing repair. Note that not all WH are bad. You'll hear some people say it runs fine. If you want to find out more, go to machinegun board forum. They have a lot of info on it. Any case I'm running off of memory and may have some things wrong but I do like shooting a drum through mine. Edit: Fixing grammar and auto misspellings |
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Originally Posted By Ryo: I can speak up about WH since I do own one. They are great shooters without worries of damaging a very expensive Thompson. Many collectors don't really consider the WH much of a collectors item hence making it a great shooter. However WH have a history of QC issues. Many parts you want to replace with surplus parts due to the chance of breakage and injury. Easy to do.. I would say that having original parts is hard to find making it, funny enough, a collector item to some, but never to be used. Other issues include poorly milled/out of spec receivers. Some are not milled deep enough and others not enough. I think it is more of the former than the latter. I actually have one that was milled too deep.. Which runs great but it wears out the sear which causes it to not catch when worn. These things can be fixed, and there are people out there who do still, though a lot less of the old timers are round. You'll hear this has been checked out repaired by PK.. But sadly he doesn't take news work anymore. Another gunsmiths sin took over (Alex I believe). Anycase don't late a WH to a Colt.. Quality levels difference and you pay that price. You always want to get a video of it running unless you get a killer deal and risk needing repair. Note that not all WH are bad. You'll hear some people say it runs fine. If you want to find out more, goto machinegun board forum. They have a lot of info on it. Any case I'm running off of memory and may have some things wrong but I do like shooting a drum through mine. I would buy a WH if I knew it ran good and the price was really good. I love an ammo burner. My UZI is a Vector. It's a clone and I had to have all the welds re-welded. Runs like a top now. The risk of buying a WH is that the Thompson is a complicated gun. The receiver isn't just a sheet metal tube, it's a piece of industrial art, a billet steel sculpture. So there are only a handful of gunsmiths out there who can competently fix a bad problem like misaligned blish slots. On the other hand, sometimes all they need is some USGI parts and they're GTG. Just go into it with your eyes open. The Thompson is a very reliable gun. If one jams, it means that gun has a broken or out of spec part. |
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Okay, I figured out what is going on in this thread now. I just saw a youtube video that is 100% negative comments about the Thompson and the entire comments section is people saying stuff like, "My dad was in the Navy in the 1980s and he says the Thompson sucks." This happens from time to time. Whenever something is popular, the easiest way to appear to be an expert is to take a contrary position. Suppose a bunch of guys are sitting around a speed shop and they start talking about what the best muscle car engine ever was. There is going to be one guy who says that the 426 Hemi mopar engine was a piece of garbage. And he'll do this by exaggerating the flaws of the engine, or citing imaginary flaws. Sometimes this litany of BS criticisms will hit critical mass and become the default chitter chatter among general public. Most of you guys won't remember this, but back in the 1980s and early 1990s when the AR15 surged in popularity, a massive group of existing rifle enthusiasts would say that the AR15 was an inaccurate piece of junk, and nobody would buy it except for the fact that it looked cool. In that statement, there are two semi-nuggets of semi-truth: to a guy who is used to shooting bolt action rifles, the rattle-y 2-piece construction of the AR15 looks like it would be inaccurate. And the military appearance of the AR15 is doubtlessly one of its reasons for its popularity. But back in reality, the AR15 is amazingly accurate and a completely agreeable rifle in every way. It's easy to shoot, there is cheap (ish) ammo, it's light and handy, the cartridge is good for home defense, etc. It's an excellent gun. This is a tech forum, I'm not trying to stir up an argument. The point is this: if you like Thompsons, this is the time to buy one. I am saying this to help you out, as a fellow Thompson guy. When someone tells you that a 10 lb rifle that shoots an inherently accurate pistol cartridge is inaccurate, uncontrollable, kicks hard and has bad muzzle rise, you are listening to a person who a.) knows physics not, b.) has never shot a Thompson, c.) is ignoring the service record of the Thompson, and d.) gets his opinions from youtube chatter. For that matter, if you like ANY machine gun, buy it now. Prices are not going to come down. If the stock market ever crashes again, you might see prices dip as everyone sells their toys to pay their mortgage, but look what happened during covid. Prices stayed high. Also, don't be afraid to buy an MG with a bad service record. Within reason, that is. Gun owners are clever and they come up with work-arounds. For example, the Reising SMG was made from mild steel and had hand-fitted parts. So the Marines on Guadalcanal hated it when it rusted a little, because it jammed. But unless you live in a tent in a swamp in Louisiana, that will not be a problem for you. The actual problem will be that the magazines are made from the finest grade $150 Corinthian Unobtainium. But someone actually came up with a solution for that problem as well. So scrape what money you can together and buy a MAC10. There is no downside. You can always sell it later at a higher price. |
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Here's a nice video of a guy shooting a Thompson. Note his nice cheek weld and the gun hardly recoiling. I can shoot my M1A1 about as well as this. I would say that the Thompson is surprisingly easy to shoot accurately. I always land in the middle of the pack when I compete, but used to have a dueling tree at my club and I would crush everyone with my Thompson. I have an UZI, M16 and Thompson. I would say that all three of them are about equal in ease of shooting. I generally shoot the M16 at a 100 or 200 yard gong, so it's not quite apples to apples. Thompson mags are made of thin metal, and dropping a full mag will kill the feed lips. But I have a tool that some a vendor makes and you can bend the lips right back to factory setting. Mags are $35 ish for very good to excellent shooter-grade. I only had one bend so far and I fixed it. WWII drums are expensive AF, a good $500. But there are Taiwanese imports for $200 that work great.  QA/QC of Polish Plate Rack with Thompson Machine Gun https://www.youtube.com/shorts/z1gN7ssX4tc |
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Originally Posted By Ryo: Your Reising comment was inaccurate. Marine Reising failed because Reising are hand fitted and the Marines mixed up parts due to throwing all the parts into a bucket to clean so the original parts wouldn't be installed in the same SMG. There was a couple of problems, per what I've read: Some of the mild steel parts rusted The hand-fitted parts got mixed up The gun's mechanism is overly susceptible to dirt for a military weapon, it doesn't run well when it's dirty Double stack, single feed SMG magazines are finicky in general, they don't like dirt The Reising is a great example of neckbeards trading apocryphal BS back and forth until it takes on a life of its own - you can find "articles" that say the Reising is literally the WORST SMG EVER MADE. The phenomenon works the other way too. Things get grossly overrated as well. Like the MP-40. The Suomi KP-31 SMG receives 100% glowing reviews from the gun community. The chatter on it is that it's "one of the best SMGs evuh." It weighs about 15.5 lbs with a full loaded drum mag. That is heavy AF for a 9mm SMG. You will never see a single negative mention of the gun's weight. Not by online neckbeards, not by historians, nobody. So a 9mm SMG that's practically made from uranium doesn't get a mention, but the Thompson is the heaviest gun ever made. |
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The Suomi KP-31 SMG receives 100% glowing reviews from the gun community. The chatter on it is that it's "one of the best SMGs evuh." It weighs about 15.5 lbs with a full loaded drum mag. That is heavy AF for a 9mm SMG. You will never see a single negative mention of the gun's weight. Not by online neckbeards, not by historians, nobody. So a 9mm SMG that's practically made from uranium doesn't get a mention, but the Thompson is the heaviest gun ever made. I own a presample Swedish m37/39 Suomi (and a Bridgeport M1A1 Thompson FWIW). For a range gun, the Suomi deserves the hype, IMO. Yes, it's heavy, but I'm not carrying it for miles. I've put 1000's of rounds through it and I don't recall having a single malfunction. You can also dump the entire drum and you don't even have to try to keep it from climbing. |
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Originally Posted By sleestakwhisperer: There was a couple of problems, per what I've read: Some of the mild steel parts rusted The hand-fitted parts got mixed up The gun's mechanism is overly susceptible to dirt for a military weapon, it doesn't run well when it's dirty Double stack, single feed SMG magazines are finicky in general, they don't like dirt The Reising is a great example of neckbeards trading apocryphal BS back and forth until it takes on a life of its own - you can find "articles" that say the Reising is literally the WORST SMG EVER MADE. The phenomenon works the other way too. Things get grossly overrated as well. Like the MP-40. The Suomi KP-31 SMG receives 100% glowing reviews from the gun community. The chatter on it is that it's "one of the best SMGs evuh." It weighs about 15.5 lbs with a full loaded drum mag. That is heavy AF for a 9mm SMG. You will never see a single negative mention of the gun's weight. Not by online neckbeards, not by historians, nobody. So a 9mm SMG that's practically made from uranium doesn't get a mention, but the Thompson is the heaviest gun ever made. This made me laugh  I see lots of similar write ups over the years,repeating errant or re-stated misinformation. Interestingly I tried a friends M31 Suomi and while controllable, I was like - "why does this thing weigh more than an M1 Garand? I thought subguns were supposed to be handy?" But it did work great. Lots of regurgitated info - Especially about the Reising, but that made them a bargain for people that shot them and enjoyed them. Oddly I can shoot well with my stock configuration MAC-10. I have shot it for a few years now but with practice I can actually hit targets and aim with it, do short Burst's and hit what I aim at. The "can only be used to defend oneself inside a telephone booth" is not entirely accurate but definitely has its challenges as a subgun, but given practice it can hit things even in stock configuration. |
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Originally Posted By sleestakwhisperer: If you didn't watch this clip, you're missing out. It's great: https://vimeo.com/659063541?cjdata=MXxOfDB8WXww&utm_campaign=2470763&utm_source=affiliate&utm_channel=affiliate&cjevent=40c022d04a1811ef812801000a82b821&clickid=40c022d04a1811ef812801000a82b821 https://i0.wp.com/bamfstyle.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/millerleorobe-gun1-tommy2.jpg?resize=664%2C360&ssl=1 Originally Posted By sleestakwhisperer: If you didn't watch this clip, you're missing out. It's great: https://vimeo.com/659063541?cjdata=MXxOfDB8WXww&utm_campaign=2470763&utm_source=affiliate&utm_channel=affiliate&cjevent=40c022d04a1811ef812801000a82b821&clickid=40c022d04a1811ef812801000a82b821 https://i0.wp.com/bamfstyle.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/millerleorobe-gun1-tommy2.jpg?resize=664%2C360&ssl=1 Originally Posted By sleestakwhisperer: Originally Posted By jagdkommando: Such a good buy no one bid on them. If Hollywood churns out a movie that has a lot of Thompsons in it, as they love to do, your remark may possibly age like the finest Corinthian buttermilk, lovingly aged in a hothouse in New Orleans in August. Joking aside, this is Thompsons we are talking about. The rising tide lifts all boats, but they go up in jerks. That's the point of the thread. Scoff all you like, it's a free country, but a nice pre-45 Thompson might make you happier down the road. I've been trying to make a 45 reload that makes a giant muzzle flash, but the slow powders spray you with unburned grains. 45 doesn't like slowness. https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/831322238204954086/40F6E045A389753F2512284B1F322D4CEE8AB1C9/?imw=5000&imh=5000&ima=fit&impolicy=Letterbox&imcolor=%23000000&letterbox=false Word; Stembridge. Back in the day, they were "the" place for gun rentals, stunt guys with guns, armorers, anything. All those movies showing someone FA'ing a Thompson with a C drum with huge fire coming out the front and top of the Cutts Compensator...."Stembridge Flash Powder Blanks." AND....lol, their Especiale' compensator. Find an old show. Star Trek TOS, "A Piece of The Action. That Kevin Costner film about Elliott Ness. Sean Connery. I think they had a few Stembridge Thompson's in there. Those are Stembridge tommy guns. The comp body is larger in diameter. The ports are a different size, even the hole in the front is huge(er). With their proprietary blanks, they makee biggie flashie. Really big. Fun Fact. Back in the day, Ski and his goofy buddy decided to make some extra flashy loads in 8mm for this Chinese Mauser Goofy bought from Century. On Sale. With a cut down 16" barrel. I think we used IMR 4550 or something like that, way down in the hundreds on the burn chart. At night, the muzzle flash was beachball size. No. That's not the only stupid crap we did that was way fun. If you googoo stembridge flash powder blanks, the ammunition is collectible. Might even find you a recipe or three. I dealt with a guy back in the day, did movie guns, blank adapting, up in Kingman. Don't remember his name but if you do a search for Hollywood, movie armorers, something like that you might turn up a link or two. As I recall, he added a small amount of flash powder (you can look that up yourself to the blanks he sold and yes. They come in various power ratings for different purposes so all are not the same and some can be quite dangerous so please educate yourselves. |
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Originally Posted By BusterBrown: I own a presample Swedish m37/39 Suomi (and a Bridgeport M1A1 Thompson FWIW). For a range gun, the Suomi deserves the hype, IMO. Yes, it's heavy, but I'm not carrying it for miles. I've put 1000's of rounds through it and I don't recall having a single malfunction. You can also dump the entire drum and you don't even have to try to keep it from climbing. The point was simply that the Suomi is heavy gun, about on par with the Thompson. But you literally never hear anyone mention the Suomi's weight at all, ever. And yet when the Thompson comes up for discussion, that's the first thing said. Apparently the Suomi and Thompson exist in alternate universes, one where a 10 lb gun is just ducky and another one where a 10 lb gun tears your arms free from the sockets. As far as I know, the Suomi was a useful gun, the Finns got a lot of use from them in the Winter War. Apparently they armed whole rifle companies with them. |
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Originally Posted By Kobolowsky_Tires: Fun Fact. Back in the day, Ski and his goofy buddy decided to make some extra flashy loads in 8mm for this Chinese Mauser Goofy bought from Century. On Sale. With a cut down 16" barrel. I think we used IMR 4550 or something like that, way down in the hundreds on the burn chart. At night, the muzzle flash was beachball size. No. That's not the only stupid crap we did that was way fun. I have a friend with a mauser with a 12 inch barrel. Just regular 8mm ammo makes a beach ball sized flash. |
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Originally Posted By Kobolowsky_Tires: Word; Stembridge. Back in the day, they were "the" place for gun rentals, stunt guys with guns, armorers, anything. All those movies showing someone FA'ing a Thompson with a C drum with huge fire coming out the front and top of the Cutts Compensator...."Stembridge Flash Powder Blanks." AND....lol, their Especiale' compensator. Find an old show. Star Trek TOS, "A Piece of The Action. That Kevin Costner film about Elliott Ness. Sean Connery. I think they had a few Stembridge Thompson's in there. Those are Stembridge tommy guns. The comp body is larger in diameter. The ports are a different size, even the hole in the front is huge(er). With their proprietary blanks, they makee biggie flashie. Really big. Fun Fact. Back in the day, Ski and his goofy buddy decided to make some extra flashy loads in 8mm for this Chinese Mauser Goofy bought from Century. On Sale. With a cut down 16" barrel. I think we used IMR 4550 or something like that, way down in the hundreds on the burn chart. At night, the muzzle flash was beachball size. No. That's not the only stupid crap we did that was way fun. If you googoo stembridge flash powder blanks, the ammunition is collectible. Might even find you a recipe or three. I dealt with a guy back in the day, did movie guns, blank adapting, up in Kingman. Don't remember his name but if you do a search for Hollywood, movie armorers, something like that you might turn up a link or two. As I recall, he added a small amount of flash powder (you can look that up yourself to the blanks he sold and yes. They come in various power ratings for different purposes so all are not the same and some can be quite dangerous so please educate yourselves. FWIW, there were five Stembridge Thompsons used in the original Godfather movie. All five of them appear to have been in the famous toll booth assassination scene. When Dan Shea sold them, all five went for a significant premium. Edited to correct mistake. |
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Originally Posted By SecondAmend: FWIW, there were five Stembridge Thompsons used in the original Godfather movie. All five of them appear to have been in the famous toll booth assassination scene. When Dan Shea sold them, all five went for a significant premium. Edited to correct mistake. how much did they sell for? sometimes auction fever hits people. Some sheriff's department auctioned some thompsons and they knocked down at about 2x times the actual value. plus Thompsons are a high end historic collectable, especially Colts, and the jet-setters that go to high end auctions don't seem to GAF how much they spend |
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Originally Posted By sleestakwhisperer: how much did they sell for? sometimes auction fever hits people. Some sheriff's department auctioned some thompsons and they knocked down at about 2x times the actual value. plus Thompsons are a high end historic collectable, especially Colts, and the jet-setters that go to high end auctions don't seem to GAF how much they spend The sale took place quite some time ago. Here's all I could find doing a quick and dirty search: https://www.machinegunboards.com/forums/index.php?/topic/14803-thompsons-from-the-god-father-movie-and-boardwalk-empire/ |
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I just saw a clip of Bill Burr on Joe Rogan and he said, "In WWII, our machine guns would overheat, so our guys would have to pick up the machine guns from the dead Germans." Then he repeated the nonsense about how 5 Sherman tanks would have to hunt a Tiger and 4 would get blown up. People will believe literally anything if it sounds "remarkable" enough. The Sherman tank used to be the No. 1 most maligned weapon of WWII, but the constant negative blathering ironically caused a re-examination of it and has reversed itself. But it took like 20 years. Same thing with the P-40 Warhawk. "The worst fighter of WWII", until a British guy made a nice documentary video about them that's full of this weird thing called "factual information." Now everyone is like, "hmmmmm..." If you ever get around to studying ANY historical event or person, you will find that once something goes into print, it's very hard to get people to question it, no matter how ludicrous it is. A good example is the book, "Midway: The Battle that Doomed Japan" by Mitsuo Fuchida. It's a wad of pure lies, but it was the gold standard for 30+ years. Ironically, the book was considered to be garbage in Japan. I was at my MG shoot this past weekend again and one of the topics that came up is why Thompson prices are so low. I'm suspecting that it's getting "neckbeard expert-ed" to death, based on the chatter that I am seeing on the internet. I'm just glad I bought mine in 2012. Even with the weird slump in prices, I paid half what they could realistically be sold for now. |
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Here's an article that has a very brief summary of the weapons used by the FBI in the 20th century. https://www.americanrifleman.org/content/bring-enough-gun-a-history-of-the-fbi-s-long-arms/ |
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Originally Posted By tonysoprano150: Meh…slow,heavy and boring, yet easy to shoot well I think you mean crafted from billet steel like industrial art, incredibly historic, cool AF, absolutely 100% reliable, and amazingly easy to shoot well 
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Thompsons are a bargain MG right now. (Page 3 of 3)
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