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Posted: 6/23/2026 10:05:57 PM EDT
I think this is a pretty good video. Why I DO NOT run ARs anymore (kinda) |
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I made it three minutes into the video. Does he address effectiveness against body armor at all? Body armor (of various types) is commonplace now, even among criminals. I LOVE shotguns and shotguns definitely have a place in a HD/SD arsenal but are never going to eclipse the AR for range, precision, firepower or terminal effectiveness. |
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Originally Posted By Makarov: I made it three minutes into the video. Does he address effectiveness against body armor at all? Body armor (of various types) is commonplace now, even among criminals. I LOVE shotguns and shotguns definitely have a place in a HD/SD arsenal but are never going to eclipse the AR for range, precision, firepower or terminal effectiveness. I do not remember him addressing body armor. His SG use is specific to his area. |
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“Pistols put holes in people. Rifles put holes through people. Shotguns … youtu.be/l9nGB8cK1HM?is=bGX5zTAZI3DBj41E  Clint Smith on Shotguns |
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Originally Posted By Makarov: I made it three minutes into the video. Does he address effectiveness against body armor at all? Body armor (of various types) is commonplace now, even among criminals. I LOVE shotguns and shotguns definitely have a place in a HD/SD arsenal but are never going to eclipse the AR for range, precision, firepower or terminal effectiveness. I thought the video raised some valid but limit points. Just for conversation and consideration: I've been a street cop going on twenty-five years now, worked some bad areas, I've yet to encounter a criminal wearing body armor... while YES, body armor is easy to acquire, I'm not sure I'd call it "commonplace"... even less so for a significant portion of the criminal element. Plates are easily available and those too stop rifle rounds. I've shot plates, and posted on there about it, where the plates took 4, 5, 6 hits within a few inches of each other before a round getting through. Those plates were on display in my classroom back when I was doing classes and a lot of guys so=called familiar with body armor were surprised. When it comes to armor, a rifle too is compromised. Nothing in that video that I saw insinuated a SG eclipsing the rifle platform, IMO he agrees in terms of range, precision, firepower, etc. He mentions the shortfalls of the SG. Nothing is 100%, tools and tactics have pros/cons. The video doesn't present the SG as "better" or "superior" per se. As someone who has trudged through the Florida swamps and palmetto flats, where visibility was very limited, while on actual manhunts for violent criminals not just lollygaging, many of us soon realized we would have rather grabbed our SG's vs. our rifles. The number one reason was limited visibility and the ability, whether real or perceived, to aim and shoot faster (a debatable aspect I agree). I'd say the video was one of the better ones as far as highlighting positive aspects of the SG in limited environments. |
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Gotta agree with the above post- the video guy laid out a very specific scenario why it works for him, in that location, during that time of the year and then he logically switches to a rifle once the vegetation isn't so thick. If anyone has been in the Appalachian hollers when everything starts growing again in the spring it gets very, very dense, especially anywhere that has mountain laurel and rhododendron; it'll scare the crap out of you when a grouse flushes right in front of you and goes screeching past, same with deer and black bear. Because of the terrain, it's also darker with a lot of shadows for a good part of the day when the sun isn't overhead and extremely dark at night except when a near full moon or better is overhead. I noticed that he has a lanyard on his handgun and having slipped and fallen on plenty of occasions in those areas while hiking and backpacking it's a good idea and one that I use at times. It's very easy to drop something and with the steep terrain, rocks and ground debris it'll just disappear. For hiking and backpacking I buy essential item like lighters and match cases, knives and flashlights in orange or other bright, non natural colors as well as using dummy cords. The tri-state area and up are home to several of my knives, lighters, etc. that have gotten dropped over the decades. |
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Originally Posted By Steamedliver: I do not remember him addressing body armor. His SG use is specific to his area. Originally Posted By Steamedliver: Originally Posted By Makarov: I made it three minutes into the video. Does he address effectiveness against body armor at all? Body armor (of various types) is commonplace now, even among criminals. I LOVE shotguns and shotguns definitely have a place in a HD/SD arsenal but are never going to eclipse the AR for range, precision, firepower or terminal effectiveness. I do not remember him addressing body armor. His SG use is specific to his area. Don't need to punch through something if you can hit it with enough force. Trauma & death by severe concussion are things. Slugs be like it is, & they do; 00 buck is no slouch, either. |
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Originally Posted By Master_Blaster: Don't need to punch through something if you can hit it with enough force. Trauma & death by severe concussion are things. Slugs be like it is, & they do; 00 buck isn't a slouch, either. I wouldn't want to be shot by either but if a rifle plate can distribute the impact of a slug over the area greater than the shotgun stock buttpad won't the concussion be less than the felt recoil of the shotgun? |
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Originally Posted By voyager3: I wouldn't want to be shot by either but if a rifle plate can distribute the impact of a slug over the area greater than the shotgun stock buttpad won't the concussion be less than the felt recoil of the shotgun? Originally Posted By voyager3: Originally Posted By Master_Blaster: Don't need to punch through something if you can hit it with enough force. Trauma & death by severe concussion are things. Slugs be like it is, & they do; 00 buck isn't a slouch, either. I wouldn't want to be shot by either but if a rifle plate can distribute the impact of a slug over the area greater than the shotgun stock buttpad won't the concussion be less than the felt recoil of the shotgun? Tag to watch later Bad guys have body armor Aim for legs? |
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for the last 5 years i carried an AR as a farm gun , had not gotten a single fox and only one coyote , found a Maverick 88 security cheap and only put wood furniture on it , carried it for a week , too heavy for extended time , back to the AR , then i found a 500 in 20 ga security with the Ghost ring package cheap , again only put wood furniture on it and got rid of the ridiculous AR style crap , fully loaded with #2 buck 3 inch mags its lighter than both the AR and the Maverick , and i bagged a fox already , well with some help of the dogs , i hit it and wounded and the dogs played clean up ,so a assist , it was maybe 60 yd shot moving target , its my new farm gun by the time i raise up on a moving fox with the AR i have no time to get him in my sights and its a spray and pray scenerio , with the buck i really only need one or two pellets to find their mark to at a minimum slow them dow until the dogs can do their thing , i running fox is not an easy shot |
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Originally Posted By Bowhntr6pt: I think this is a pretty good video.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upVPiBUnik4 |
No good will come from me a fightin' your war....-John Carter
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Originally Posted By rhaney02: Not sure why I need to be listening to this dude. Bro can't even do a chamber reload with his shotgun nor cleanly eject and reload a mag with his sidearm. Rusty? Perhaps. Can you offer an intelligent counter-argument to the information suggested in the video? |
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Originally Posted By Bowhntr6pt: Rusty? Perhaps. Can you offer an intelligent counter-argument to the information suggested in the video? |
No good will come from me a fightin' your war....-John Carter
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Originally Posted By rhaney02: Can you offer an intelligent argument for it other than giving the excuse that he's "rusty"? See post #6 I was seriously asking. This thread is about discussing the times when a SG could possibly be a better choice, not a critique of someone's limited display of skill(s) or lack thereof. Like you've NEVER fumbled a reload? Post some reasonable counter points concerning the topic and merits for doing so if you like... either way... stop being a dick. There's too much of that going on with this site now days. @Bowhntr6pt This is a tech forum. You have a right to disagree but keep it polite. This is a verbal warning only. -bodybagger |
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Originally Posted By Bowhntr6pt: See post #6 I was seriously asking. This thread is about discussing the times when a SG could possibly be a better choice, not a critique of someone's limited display of skill(s) or lack thereof. Like you've NEVER fumbled a reload? Post some reasonable counter points concerning the topic and merits for doing so if you like... either way... stop being a dick. There's too much of that going on with this site now days. Funny how people that have no argument resort to name calling....  @rhaney02 This is a tech forum. Please keep it polite. You have a right to disagree but please keep it civil. This is a verbal warning only. -bodybagger |
No good will come from me a fightin' your war....-John Carter
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Originally Posted By Migmaqman: i dont have a dog in this fight but my impression after reading your post left me calling you a dick to myself before he told you to stop being a dick , thats how you came across Unfortunately that's how this place has evolved over the years. You post something and along comes someone with a post that has little or nothing to do with the topic at hand... usually a slight on the topic, the poster, or the source from which information was presented. That's why a lot of seasoned and experienced people no longer visit the site... over the years I've seen plenty of great sources log off and never come back... that's an undisputable fact. Those with valid and quality experiences to share choose not to do so for this very thing. I'd rather someone come in and offer valid counter-points based on their real training or experiences so all of us can get a different perspective and perhaps pick up on something new. Otherwise you're just some random dude pounding on your keyboard. With that said, I watched a great video last night concerning the use of the SG in Viet Nam, it had some statistical data concerning in-depth analysis of engagements and wounding/killing results. The information mirrored the pros and cons outlined in the above video with some validation and actual sources... damn, I can't seem to find it... I'll look tonight and see if I can post it. |
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Originally Posted By Makarov: I made it three minutes into the video. Does he address effectiveness against body armor at all? Body armor (of various types) is commonplace now, even among criminals. I LOVE shotguns and shotguns definitely have a place in a HD/SD arsenal but are never going to eclipse the AR for range, precision, firepower or terminal effectiveness. Id agree that plates are common place. And rifles are at the same disadvantage as shotguns with plates |
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Originally Posted By Master_Blaster: Don't need to punch through something if you can hit it with enough force. Trauma & death by severe concussion are things. Slugs be like it is, & they do; 00 buck isn't a slouch, either. Originally Posted By Master_Blaster: Originally Posted By Steamedliver: Originally Posted By Makarov: I made it three minutes into the video. Does he address effectiveness against body armor at all? Body armor (of various types) is commonplace now, even among criminals. I LOVE shotguns and shotguns definitely have a place in a HD/SD arsenal but are never going to eclipse the AR for range, precision, firepower or terminal effectiveness. I do not remember him addressing body armor. His SG use is specific to his area. Don't need to punch through something if you can hit it with enough force. Trauma & death by severe concussion are things. Slugs be like it is, & they do; 00 buck isn't a slouch, either. Not vs plates |
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Originally Posted By 03RN: Id agree that plates are common place. And rifles are at the same disadvantage as shotguns with plates Common where? In the gun/tactical/LE/Mil communities, they're popular. Are some cartels and organzied ciriminal orgnanization using them? To some degree. Are the premediated active shooters using them? Yeah, pretty common actualy. Are the criminal/druggie/methhead/burgler/gang types in your AO using them? No, and there's little to change that reality. You're simply not going to find actual criminal threats wearing armor outside of very niche, professional, and very organized elements. BLUF: Criminals wearing body armor during the commission of crimes is extremely rare, representing a negligible percentage of overall criminal activity. While precise, comprehensive databases tracking every instance of criminal body armor use do not exist, legal proceedings, legislative reviews, and historical FBI active shooter data indicate that it is a highly uncommon choice for the average offender. Average threats in your AO wearing body armor is neglibable at best. If you're concerned about threats wearing body armor, they aren't your average threats: .gov or being targeted by some well-resourced and organized criminal organization. ROCK6 |
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Originally Posted By Migmaqman: for the last 5 years i carried an AR as a farm gun , had not gotten a single fox and only one coyote , found a Maverick 88 security cheap and only put wood furniture on it , carried it for a week , too heavy for extended time , back to the AR , then i found a 500 in 20 ga security with the Ghost ring package cheap , again only put wood furniture on it and got rid of the ridiculous AR style crap , fully loaded with #2 buck 3 inch mags its lighter than both the AR and the Maverick , and i bagged a fox already , well with some help of the dogs , i hit it and wounded and the dogs played clean up ,so a assist , it was maybe 60 yd shot moving target , its my new farm gun by the time i raise up on a moving fox with the AR i have no time to get him in my sights and its a spray and pray scenerio , with the buck i really only need one or two pellets to find their mark to at a minimum slow them dow until the dogs can do their thing , i running fox is not an easy shot As many know, im a devout woodchuck hunter. My primaries are an AR with 6-24 scope, and a Ruger precision. 22lr suppressed for sub 50yd headshots. I use either from a bogpod in setup areas where I know they're active. I sit and wait. I scout the fields of course to know where to set up. I have never been able to get a snap shot when one pops out of the beans while scouting. Now while scouting, I carry a shotgun with #4 rabbit loads. I've got 4 with this method. At short range, with dense cover, and very limited aiming opportunity, I find the shotgun superior on moving targets. A less than perfect aim, is still likely to produce hits. My preferred hd weapon remains my 870. |
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I have an AR500 steel pig target. FMJ .30-06 out of a Garand and a BAR at 75 yards doesn’t even leave a mark. One 12ga 3” magnum slug out on my 20” 590 bowed the plate. I would imagine someone wearing armor with a plate would be out of the fight after taking a hit from one of those. My place looks like that video, just more hilly. It’s like a jungle right now and is really dark under the tree. I mostly carry a shotgun on the property. About a 5 minute walk from my back door: 
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Originally Posted By ROCK6: Common where? In the gun/tactical/LE/Mil communities, they're popular. Are some cartels and organzied ciriminal orgnanization using them? To some degree. Are the premediated active shooters using them? Yeah, pretty common actualy. Are the criminal/druggie/methhead/burgler/gang types in your AO using them? No, and there's little to change that reality. You're simply not going to find actual criminal threats wearing armor outside of very niche, professional, and very organized elements. BLUF: Criminals wearing body armor during the commission of crimes is extremely rare, representing a negligible percentage of overall criminal activity. While precise, comprehensive databases tracking every instance of criminal body armor use do not exist, legal proceedings, legislative reviews, and historical FBI active shooter data indicate that it is a highly uncommon choice for the average offender. Average threats in your AO wearing body armor is neglibable at best. If you're concerned about threats wearing body armor, they aren't your average threats: .gov or being targeted by some well-resourced and organized criminal organization. ROCK6 25 years working the streets I've yet to see, hear of, or encounter BA of any kind at the street level. |
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“A shotgun shoots out a solid wall of lead…” *eyeroll* That lack of ammo capacity won’t matter… *eyeroll* It’s just a rehash of the same arguments that have been going on for years. The guy talks about how misunderstood the shotgun is, then immediately falls into common shotgun mythology. Shotguns are effective tools, but his is a pretty lame argument for a very specific condition. |
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Originally Posted By voyager3: I wouldn't want to be shot by either but if a rifle plate can distribute the impact of a slug over the area greater than the shotgun stock buttpad won't the concussion be less than the felt recoil of the shotgun? Originally Posted By voyager3: Originally Posted By Master_Blaster: Don't need to punch through something if you can hit it with enough force. Trauma & death by severe concussion are things. Slugs be like it is, & they do; 00 buck isn't a slouch, either. I wouldn't want to be shot by either but if a rifle plate can distribute the impact of a slug over the area greater than the shotgun stock buttpad won't the concussion be less than the felt recoil of the shotgun? I think the difference lies in the time span that the force is distributed over. When fired, the slug accelerates through probably the first 10 - 14 inches of the barrel. That means the force is relatively spread out. On impact, the slug decelerates in its own length, about an inch. The area under the force/distance curve is the same, but the peak force on impact will be higher than firing due to conservation of energy. I think if you could measure the force the plot would look something like this:  |
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Originally Posted By Bowhntr6pt: ... With that said, I watched a great video last night concerning the use of the SG in Viet Nam, it had some statistical data concerning in-depth analysis of engagements and wounding/killing results. The information mirrored the pros and cons outlined in the above video with some validation and actual sources... damn, I can't seem to find it... I'll look tonight and see if I can post it. @Bowhntr6pt Did you have any luck on finding the "Vietnam Shotgun Use" video? There was some interesting experimentation going on in Vietnam with flechettes, #4 buck, "duck bill" pattern spreaders, and good old 00 buck. Regarding the classic "AR vs Shotgun, Vs ... ..." Sort of like golfing, there is a "better tool" for various scenarios, (driver, putter, sand wedge, etc...) so I always try to have more that one stick in my bag of tricks.  Bigger_Hammer 
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BUT RATHER TO SKID IN SIDEWAYS, TOTALLY WORN OUT SHOUTING "HOLY $H!T...WHAT A RIDE"!!
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Originally Posted By Bigger_Hammer: @Bowhntr6pt Did you have any luck on finding the "Vietnam Shotgun Use" video? There was some interesting experimentation going on in Vietnam with flechettes, #4 buck, "duck bill" pattern spreaders, and good old 00 buck. Regarding the classic "AR vs Shotgun, Vs ... ..." Sort of like golfing, there is a "better tool" for various scenarios, (driver, putter, sand wedge, etc...) so I always try to have more that one stick in my bag of tricks. Bigger_Hammer No, but mentioned all of that. |
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One of my former neighbors did three tours in Vietnam, one as 82nd, two as 5th SF (not SOG; RiP Ken). I know he was a big fan of shotguns for short distances including the swamps here and he often carried one shrimping and crabbing (back in the heydays of cocaine smuggling there were far more shipments coming into SC than most realized; those wide Jon boats with multiple electric motors on the back weren't for fishing the inlets and creeks). He didn't talk much about his time overseas but several things I did pick up from him included that they were generally issued 00 buck while the Aussies were issued #4 and they would often trade with them. The point man often carried a shotgun. He preferred the Ithaca since you could hold the trigger and pump away, the goal being more to put out a lot of lead and hopefully get the enemy to put their heads down while the others in the squad moved to whatever their positions were for that situation. With more pellets you had a better chance of hitting someone and all wounds had to be taken seriously as infections were a constant threat so any hits were a plus. It was not carried on every mission or every environment, only when they thought it might be advantageous. I obviously wasn't there to verify anything he said but I know he was there, I saw some of the pictures (including of him with an Ithaca), the awards, etc. and I know what guns he carried hunting and fishing. |
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@Bigger_Hammer Not sure if this was "the one" but it looks familiar. Addresses some of the same issues. IMO a high-velocity rifle generally takes lead in most environments, but as already mentioned, a special tool for a special application... enter the SG. I've personally experienced "real world man hunting" more than once in an environment that had me wanting...  The TERRIFYING Facts About Shotguns In Vietnam |
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I love my rifles, I love my shotguns, I try to train with both. I also shoot pistols at 35/50 yards when I can because I need to be able to do the job with whatever tool is available at the time. In Arfcom fashion, get both  ETA - great 2nd video, very informative |
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I love shotguns, my Benelli M2 tactical is awesome. If I was in a group with no automatics having someone with a shotgun to lay down a quick burst of buckshot isn’t a bad idea. On my own I’ll take my 11.5” 5.56. I can fire and maneuver fast, reload faster and hit farther with it. For ambush busting I’d probably use a 3” #4 buck with 41 buckshot, then 2 3/4” OO in the tube for capacity. *Buckshot spreads about 1” per yard so a 15 yard ambush you still have to aim*. |
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Originally Posted By 03RN: Not vs plates Originally Posted By 03RN: Originally Posted By Master_Blaster: Originally Posted By Steamedliver: Originally Posted By Makarov: I made it three minutes into the video. Does he address effectiveness against body armor at all? Body armor (of various types) is commonplace now, even among criminals. I LOVE shotguns and shotguns definitely have a place in a HD/SD arsenal but are never going to eclipse the AR for range, precision, firepower or terminal effectiveness. I do not remember him addressing body armor. His SG use is specific to his area. Don't need to punch through something if you can hit it with enough force. Trauma & death by severe concussion are things. Slugs be like it is, & they do; 00 buck isn't a slouch, either. Originally Posted By voyager3: I wouldn't want to be shot by either but if a rifle plate can distribute the impact of a slug over the area greater than the shotgun stock buttpad won't the concussion be less than the felt recoil of the shotgun? Not vs plates Depends on the magnitude of the force & the area of the plate. |
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Originally Posted By Makarov: I made it three minutes into the video. Does he address effectiveness against body armor at all? Body armor (of various types) is commonplace now, even among criminals. I LOVE shotguns and shotguns definitely have a place in a HD/SD arsenal but are never going to eclipse the AR for range, precision, firepower or terminal effectiveness. Head shots and groin shots, usually if they are wearing armor it doesn't cover those two vital areas. |
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I've come back around to the shotgun as my primary home defense weapon. Especially after taking a (tactical? I hate that word) practical shotgun class and running ~400 rounds through my M4 in a weekend. Federal Flight Control is definitely a "thing," as demonstrated by our instructors, and paired with slugs makes for an incredibly devastating weapon. Buckshot isn't just delivering 9 30-cal pellets, it's delivering 9 30-cal pellets on target AT THE SAME TIME. Superior, IMHO, to a pistol or rifle, and with only 1 trigger pull. Also easier to explain than, "Defendant, please explain to the jury why you felt compelled to shoot the plaintiff 9 times." |
Posterity! You will never know, how much it cost the present Generation, to preserve your Freedom! I hope you will make a good Use of it. If you do not, I shall repent in Heaven, that I ever took half the Pains to preserve it.---John Adams
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@Bowhntr6pt, as you know, my father heavily used a shotgun during the Cocaine Cowboy days of South Florida. He had access to numerous SMGs (he loved the Uzi) and rifles like the Ruger Mini-14-GB and AC-556 along with various flavors of an AR-15 and M16. He still is a scattergun guy. He's got his SBRs, he's got his full-size rifles, but his go to is still a Remington 870. As John Q Citizen, the shotgun serves him perfectly. He's retired, farts around the house and other than coming over to my place, grocery shopping, or taking the little one to the park, lives in the middle of suburbia in his single family detached home. 00 buck and 1oz slug is more than enough for him. And I still keep a scatter gun handy too.  The top is a 870 Express HD that I purchased back when GWB was still in his first term, the middle is the 870 Express Tactical I recently rescued from the used counter of a local shop for $260 out the door, and the bottom is my 870 Police that I carried throughout my days as a South Florida patrol officer. |
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Originally Posted By WRAM1: The presence of drones on the battlefield has already made shotguns relevant again as a weapon system. This field will grow over time. |
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Originally Posted By Makarov: I made it three minutes into the video. Does he address effectiveness against body armor at all? Body armor (of various types) is commonplace now, even among criminals. I LOVE shotguns and shotguns definitely have a place in a HD/SD arsenal but are never going to eclipse the AR for range, precision, firepower or terminal effectiveness. Stateside, I'd bet that hard armor is more available to wannabe troublemakers than soft armor. It's much cheaper on the low end for a sub-$100 plate carrier and some AR500 plates than soft armor. Pretty good video. While I no longer live in an area that lush, I grew up in an area where the only 100yd sightline was straight up and a shotgun was plenty for most of the distances you're likely to run into. |
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Originally Posted By TNC: I think the difference lies in the time span that the force is distributed over. When fired, the slug accelerates through probably the first 10 - 14 inches of the barrel. That means the force is relatively spread out. On impact, the slug decelerates in its own length, about an inch. The area under the force/distance curve is the same, but the peak force on impact will be higher than firing due to conservation of energy. I think if you could measure the force the plot would look something like this: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/170924/Firing_vs_impact_force-3801888.jpg pretty much this. |
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Originally Posted By Miami_JBT: The chances of actually downing drones with shotguns is pretty damn hard. Shotguns are of extreme last resort. The real anti-drone tech is the ability to fry the bastards in the air with energy-based weapons. FPV drones can fly 100+mph. Hitting one would be like intercepting a fastball thrown at you. How long does it take to fry a drone? |
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Originally Posted By Moondog: FPV drones can fly 100+mph. Hitting one would be like intercepting a fastball thrown at you. How long does it take to fry a drone? |
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Originally Posted By Migmaqman: for the last 5 years i carried an AR as a farm gun , had not gotten a single fox and only one coyote , found a Maverick 88 security cheap and only put wood furniture on it , carried it for a week , too heavy for extended time , back to the AR , then i found a 500 in 20 ga security with the Ghost ring package cheap , again only put wood furniture on it and got rid of the ridiculous AR style crap , fully loaded with #2 buck 3 inch mags its lighter than both the AR and the Maverick , and i bagged a fox already , well with some help of the dogs , i hit it and wounded and the dogs played clean up ,so a assist , it was maybe 60 yd shot moving target , its my new farm gun by the time i raise up on a moving fox with the AR i have no time to get him in my sights and its a spray and pray scenerio , with the buck i really only need one or two pellets to find their mark to at a minimum slow them dow until the dogs can do their thing , i running fox is not an easy shot Buck is the wrong load for foxes. BB is much better. I use it for coyote and foxes and it works well. Pattern density > shot size in this application. We have a permission where we hunt rabbits. He asks us to take out any predators that are hard on his calves. We each carry a slug and 2 BB loads while we hunt. Honestly hi vel 4 is adequate for most jumps on the canines. If we get a chance to slide a BB load into a chamber it’s a done deal. I agree with this guy. In central app, shotguns have a real role. They don’t supplant rifles, but they are a must have tool in the arsenal. Not only in his scenario, but from September to the start of march I have one in the field most weekends. |
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